The only way I can see spikes not becoming too dominant and frustrating is making them less instant. Slamming down a wall out from nowhere just doesn't cut. Either make the spikes rise slowly, or give some other signal a few moments before the spike actually goes off. Basically give the marine a possibility to reposition and adjust before any option is completely shut down.
Even then I don't know if there's any good way to fit it into the game, but I feel it's the very necessity for spikes even to have a chance.
I didn't read the whole thread but why not just give infestation spikes to the drifter? This would make it so the commander actually would need a drifter in place to use infestation spikes so it can't be pooped out from nowhere on the infestation. This also gives marines a way to prevent infestation spikes of comming up in the area. i think it would also synergyse well with the ability the drifters already posess.
Rise, seriously with those responses? Do you need to be blocked into a corner until you're forced to kill in console to realize spikes are a bad idea? You seem to think spikes take proper timing, but when isn't a good time to spike when marines are near a choke point? Better yet, as a marine, when can you say that your death was justified or avoidable when a spike is involved in anyway? Invulnerable spikes stop marines from doing anything to affect an area which they block, killing the fps side of the game for the players blocked. To me, spikes are very similar to vortex effecting marines. These abilities detract from the fps side of the game to the point where the game stops being fun.
Vladimir Van VodkaSexy BeastJoin Date: 2010-07-30Member: 73364Members, Reinforced - Shadow
Gonna throw up my link to the <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=113779&st=0" target="_blank">Cerberi Suggestion</a> thread yet again, It could easily replace the infestation spikes since I'm guessing they where also designed as marine deterrence.
So disturbingly similar concept-wise. I think the <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=113779&st=0" target="_blank">Cerberi</a> would be superior then the current implementation of Infestation Spikes: non frustrating, counterable, amusing for both sides, support and team oriented gameplay etc etc It would be great if people would take notice of it, nobody up to now disliked it, and maybe we could get this or something similar implemented instead!
Vladimir Van VodkaSexy BeastJoin Date: 2010-07-30Member: 73364Members, Reinforced - Shadow
edited July 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1949770:date=Jul 8 2012, 04:21 AM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Jul 8 2012, 04:21 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1949770"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I love that idea, short of the 400/100 hp/armor stats.. thats wayyy too much for a "mine", imo<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'll post a reply to this in the Cerberi thread as to why It has slightly more health then a mac, I was rambling on with statistics here, which is not the place for it.
<!--quoteo(post=1949579:date=Jul 7 2012, 12:44 AM:name=Rise)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Rise @ Jul 7 2012, 12:44 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1949579"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No, there isn't. I consider it pretty negative for me if my opponent suddenly becomes super shielded and he kills me as a result.
If I'm a skulk and nanoshield goes up on my target, it has just completely reversed the course of that encounter in a way that is far more idiot proof to pull off than trying to cleverly spike to the marine's disadvantage.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I can and have killed marines 1v1 as a skulk while they were shielded. SKILL overcomes a buff. If skill cannot overcome a buff (flying shielded gl's, lol) then the buff is OP at the moment.
But if you're rooted in place and can't move and/or fire? No amount of skill will save you, and to be stuck there knowing you will die is not fun.
I really don't think that direct commander intervention in combat is ever something that has been fun for the FPS players. Medspam has always been borderline, but NS2's new additions to that category are pushing it too far. Namely, nanoshield on marines and now infestation spikes. FPS players want to fight enemies that they can see and predict - the tide of battle being turned drastically by the sudden intervention of an invisible hand is very frustrating.
Elodea made his point clear to me today when he Khammed and I Commed. Spikes are OP. It compounds when aliens have lots of res, and with cysts being so hard to kill.
Edit: looks like I'm late to the party. I'm ok with Flayra's fix. Incremental changes ftw.
<!--quoteo(post=1949482:date=Jul 6 2012, 11:55 PM:name=Flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flayra @ Jul 6 2012, 11:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1949482"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I reduced the spike time from 12 to 5 seconds and cranked up the cooldown to 10 seconds. Let's see where that gets us.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Like always, marines win and kick aliens a**. Jetpacks are a big problem, maybe its the peformence or lag "spikes" but i had now a lot of playrounds with b212 and it was very hard for the whole team to reach or kill jetpacks. Spikes help to defend more but there is still more then one way to a room, so i don't understand the complain about Infestation spikes, it can only be placed one at a time...
<!--quoteo(post=1948873:date=Jul 4 2012, 03:21 PM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Jul 4 2012, 03:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1948873"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Hi, spikes are op. I trapped 5 marines in reactor core for a minute or so and then we killed their CC. Please reconsider this game mechanic.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I kill 4 skulk at one time with a flamethrower, ITS OP!!!111one Serious, because the marine player was stupid, you say spikes are op? I mean come on, there more then just one way from one room to another...marines split, you can just place one spike + it cost res...so you can't place them forever! Also the whole beta is imba!
People should stop using the principle: "Do not impare players" to argument against such changes. This principle is true for every other FPS game. But NS2 is an FPS RTS Hybrid. If you don't want to completely detach the commander from the other players you need to have some sort of interaction. So instead of blindly pushing in the "you shouldn't do that"-argument, you should think about the pros and cons. As long as it creates fun for enough people and the frustration factor isn't to high, it's ok.
twilitebluebug stalkerJoin Date: 2003-02-04Member: 13116Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
Charlie's temp fix should alleviate the problem for most players, IMO.
Preferably, the Spikes have an activation delay, so Marines about to have their retreat cut off can respond according, or the Marine commander may even choose beacon to save his/her comrades. After all, the most fun parts of the game are about intelligent decision-making.
Just addressing some points brought up here by multiple people. I hope this is not tl;dr There are 3 levels of potential problems with infestation spikes current and future assuming their design goal is to block and hamper marines. <i>Some are a problem even if marines are made aware of it in advance such as a mine trigger</i>.
<!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><b>1) Big exploit and game breaking behaviour.</b><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--> This includes sectioning marines off from large areas of the map, slowing their advance incredibly (speed of movement is key to successful marine expansion and offence due to higher alien mobility) and/or trapping them for eternity. This is fixed to a large extent by Flayra's change but not completely.
<!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><b>2) Squad movement behaviour, locational superiority, and onos/gorge chasing</b><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--> Infestation spike changes team vs team numerical advantages in the same way that spartans abused the hot gates of Thermopylae. It doesn't matter how many marines you send to take a room - spikes will ensure defenders only face one or two marines at a time. This occurs around every corner where the cyst is out of LOS and covered by hydras and clogs. Marines have no way to kill the cyst and any attempt to run around said corner to do so will result in an infestation spike instantly splitting the lead marine/s from the rest of the squad. This kind of mechanic renders team play and locational superiority in numbers ineffective and is bad for strategic gameflow. It actively discourages squad play and encourages split-up solo play. All of you who are arguing that spikes add strategic depth have to realise that infestation spikes also take away alot of strategic and tactical depth. Arguably more than it gives. This 2nd level involving player vs player interaction has huge implications for 'metagame' (i know thats the wrong word but you know what i mean) balance and the way marines advance and approach expansion.
<!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><b>3) The fun aspect.</b><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--> <b>As a marine</b>, it is not fun to not have control over your positioning. It is not fun to know you have a 0% chance of winning and no other option but to go around that corner anyway, get separated from the rest of your squad and shot to death by hydra's without a chance to escape. Thankfully i have not been in this position yet but i can empathize. In addition, this encourages ARC/GL spam and discourages direct player vs player combat, leading to boring siege type gameflow. <b>As an alien</b>, it is not fun to be trapped as a higher lifeform by a bad khammander. More importantly, it is not fun to be griefed purposely by your kham especially when you are an Onos. Lets run through a simple list of questions to evaluate infestation spike and the fun it adds.
Who has fun? <i>- One player, the alien commander. Potentially two players (the gorge saved by the infestation spike or the corner onos being fed kills).</i>
Who definitely will not have fun? <i>-Half the players on the server.</i>
Who will potentially not have fun? <i>-Every player on the entire server.</i>
I like infestation spikes they just need tweaking. I also like the changes Charlie is making. That said, I have 2 concerns:
Destroying cysts to prevent infestation spikes is a very slow process while waiting for the infestation to recede. Spikes should be dependent on a nearby cyst + infestation. The cyst would act as powering the infestation spike (like a pylon powers a building in starcraft). If Marines want to avoid infestation spikes as they push into alien territory, they need only to destroy cysts rather than wait for infestation to recede before they can press forward. This also creates an interesting mechanic where the infestation spike itself is invulnerable, but the cyst powering it is the weak link. (Imagine a visual cue of the cyst changing from the current bright orange to a dark purple when it is powering the infestation spike.)
Griefing ono's with infestation spikes is another problem. In SC2 the ultralisk is a "massive" unit that can breakthrough forcefields. Give the onos the same ability to break right through infestation spikes. The Khamm will need to garden more carefully around an onos.
<!--quoteo(post=1949916:date=Jul 8 2012, 01:33 PM:name=Kiai)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kiai @ Jul 8 2012, 01:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1949916"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Griefing ono's with infestation spikes is another problem. In SC2 the ultralisk is a "massive" unit that can breakthrough forcefields. Give the onos the same ability to break right through infestation spikes. The Khamm will need to garden more carefully around an onos.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
then you get the problem of the onos players "griefing" the commander (in sc2, forcefields aren't made by the zerg player controlling the ultralisk)
in any discussion of griefing, it's much easier to accept that griefing will always happen, and it's up to server admins to deal with it spending a lot of design time to make a game difficult to grief always ends up to be a waste of time, and the side-effects for regular gameplay are usually pretty unintuitive
<!--quoteo(post=1949919:date=Jul 8 2012, 09:38 AM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ Jul 8 2012, 09:38 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1949919"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->then you get the problem of the onos players "griefing" the commander (in sc2, forcefields aren't made by the zerg player controlling the ultralisk)
in any discussion of griefing, it's much easier to accept that griefing will always happen, and it's up to server admins to deal with it spending a lot of design time to make a game difficult to grief always ends up to be a waste of time, and the side-effects for regular gameplay are usually pretty unintuitive<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Let the onos grief the Khamm. Let him destroy the infestation spikes that are blocking marines on the other side so the marines can now shoot the onos and kill a 70 pres lifeform while the Khamm lost 5 tres. This is far better than the opposite situation where a Khamm could use 5-tres to trap a 70-pres lifeform and get it killed.
I agree griefing cannot not be prevented completely, but there is not always an admin nearby and sometimes there are easy tweaks that go a long way to lessen griefing.
I think a giant space gorilla breaking through infestation spikes is intuitive. A space marine breaking through infestation spikes would look odd... :)
<!--quoteo(post=1949921:date=Jul 8 2012, 02:04 PM:name=Kiai)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kiai @ Jul 8 2012, 02:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1949921"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think a giant space gorilla breaking through infestation spikes is intuitive. A space marine breaking through infestation spikes would look odd... :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah just give the wall some HP so we can take it down while its still on cooldown. Pretty simple fix and allows properly equipped/upgraded marines to make a hive advance like they should be able to.
<!--quoteo(post=1949841:date=Jul 8 2012, 05:28 AM:name=_Necro_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (_Necro_ @ Jul 8 2012, 05:28 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1949841"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->People should stop using the principle: "Do not impare players" to argument against such changes. This principle is true for every other FPS game. But NS2 is an FPS RTS Hybrid. If you don't want to completely detach the commander from the other players you need to have some sort of interaction. So instead of blindly pushing in the "you shouldn't do that"-argument, you should think about the pros and cons. As long as it creates fun for enough people and the frustration factor isn't to high, it's ok.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i think the complaints are mostly about commanders directly helping in the middle of a fight ie. nanoshield.
were it up to me I'd keep most/all the commander-to-player abilities out of combat, or at least make the ability/item unusable in combat. if regen doesn't kick in until a few seconds after the alien leaves combat then the same mechanic can be applied elsewhere (i'd love to see medpacks behave the same way. have them sit on the ground for a couple seconds until after the marine leaves combat).
With how easy it is to spam alien cysts and structures, I just don't see how an invulnerable wall blocking marine advance even for 5 seconds can be balanced with the current late-game economy.A theoretical engagement: Marines try to push atrium through reactor core on summit, without arcs or jetpacks. Spikes block off and separate the first couple marines from the pack in glass hallway who are killed by skulks/lerks or even a gorge since these marines are completely cut off marines and are forced to wait for the rest of their team before advancing. As soon as spikes go up, alien comm begins spamming whips, cysts, crags, anything he can on the other side of the wall, a gorge has time to put up clogs/hydras in the room. Even if all the structures don't go up in the five seconds, marines are forced to kill at least some of the buildings before advancing. Let's say they're successful, and clean out reactor. Next, alien comm spikes off the hallway from reactor to atrium, structure spam again, gorge has time to clog wall. This type of engagement can continue all the way into the hive, and so long as the structure spam holds for the 10 second cool down, the commander can always buy more time with spike. Thus the alien commander and one optional gorge can hold off a rush by themselves for a very long time, throw in lifeforms and it becomes unwinnable for marines. Is this strategic play for the aliens given their game mechanics? I'd say yes. With nothing else to spend their res on late game, this style of play is alien comming at its finest currently. Does it sound fun for anyone besides the alien comm? I think that's a pretty clear no.
Yes, arcs would make structure spam easier to deal with. But even with arcs, aliens only need to hold off the marine advance for 10 seconds before an unavoidable, invincible, wall gives them free time to munch on the arcs and begin replacing lost structures. Also who really wants to rely on arcs to win a game for them anymore? Spikes encourage long siege-type battles with NPCs generally deciding the outcome, a gamestyle which has been complained about at length on these forums.
Edit: Oh, and everything Elodea said. Can probably disregard my post since he summed up the situation so nicely.
<!--quoteo(post=1949970:date=Jul 9 2012, 09:58 AM:name=bily)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (bily @ Jul 9 2012, 09:58 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1949970"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As soon as spikes go up, alien comm begins spamming whips, cysts, crags, anything he can on the other side of the wall, a gorge has time to put up clogs/hydras in the room.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Or you can trap some marines and teleport whips onto them xD. I encourage you all to try it before the changes to infestation spike come in next build that prevent 2 spike trapping hehehe.
<!--quoteo(post=1949404:date=Jul 7 2012, 12:09 AM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Jul 7 2012, 12:09 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1949404"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you're going to put features like this into a game that's supposed to emphasize FPS over RTS, you had damn well better have both a really good reason (purpose) and effective ways of minimizing its detrimental effects on FPS gameplay.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1949482:date=Jul 7 2012, 06:55 AM:name=Flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flayra @ Jul 7 2012, 06:55 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1949482"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I really like the concept of the infestation spike, but definitely don't want it to slow down or obstruct the game too much. I reduced the spike time from 12 to 5 seconds and cranked up the cooldown to 10 seconds. Let's see where that gets us.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Okay, now that 213/214 has come out, there have been some changes to Infestation Spikes which I think makes them now pretty useless.
- You can't "place" them (ie., turn them out of their default vertical orientation) to block a marine unless a player is seeing them - presumably this is to take away the exploit of detecting non-moving marines. - Their alive time is very quick - hardly useful for blocking. - Still don't block arc trains. - Still can place "on" a marine and get cooldown penalized without actually spending res or seeing the spikes.
Let me place them like a phase gate, let me place just one at a time and give it HP instead of a time limit... I think this would actually make it useful, intuitive for both sides, and fun to use.
Comments
at least in it's usable on players mechanic.
Even then I don't know if there's any good way to fit it into the game, but I feel it's the very necessity for spikes even to have a chance.
What can be griefed, will be griefed.
So disturbingly similar concept-wise.
I think the <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=113779&st=0" target="_blank">Cerberi</a> would be superior then the current implementation of Infestation Spikes: non frustrating, counterable, amusing for both sides, support and team oriented gameplay etc etc
It would be great if people would take notice of it, nobody up to now disliked it, and maybe we could get this or something similar implemented instead!
I'll post a reply to this in the Cerberi thread as to why It has slightly more health then a mac, I was rambling on with statistics here, which is not the place for it.
where he plans and builds things up front so that it provides impact later on in the game?
i havn't played for a few builds now but these spikes seems to be the exact opposite of where you wanted to take the alien comm
I consider it pretty negative for me if my opponent suddenly becomes super shielded and he kills me as a result.
If I'm a skulk and nanoshield goes up on my target, it has just completely reversed the course of that encounter in a way that is far more idiot proof to pull off than trying to cleverly spike to the marine's disadvantage.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I can and have killed marines 1v1 as a skulk while they were shielded. SKILL overcomes a buff. If skill cannot overcome a buff (flying shielded gl's, lol) then the buff is OP at the moment.
But if you're rooted in place and can't move and/or fire? No amount of skill will save you, and to be stuck there knowing you will die is not fun.
Edit: looks like I'm late to the party. I'm ok with Flayra's fix. Incremental changes ftw.
Like always, marines win and kick aliens a**.
Jetpacks are a big problem, maybe its the peformence or lag "spikes" but i had now a lot of playrounds with b212 and it was very hard for the whole team to reach or kill jetpacks.
Spikes help to defend more but there is still more then one way to a room, so i don't understand the complain about Infestation spikes, it can only be placed one at a time...
<!--quoteo(post=1948873:date=Jul 4 2012, 03:21 PM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Jul 4 2012, 03:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1948873"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Hi, spikes are op. I trapped 5 marines in reactor core for a minute or so and then we killed their CC.
Please reconsider this game mechanic.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I kill 4 skulk at one time with a flamethrower, ITS OP!!!111one
Serious, because the marine player was stupid, you say spikes are op?
I mean come on, there more then just one way from one room to another...marines split, you can just place one spike + it cost res...so you can't place them forever!
Also the whole beta is imba!
ok bro
*edit*
Look forward to the changes to be made like Khyron. The lower net uptime of spike will help in terms of balance.
This principle is true for every other FPS game. But NS2 is an FPS RTS Hybrid. If you don't want to completely detach the commander from the other players you need to have some sort of interaction. So instead of blindly pushing in the "you shouldn't do that"-argument, you should think about the pros and cons. As long as it creates fun for enough people and the frustration factor isn't to high, it's ok.
Preferably, the Spikes have an activation delay, so Marines about to have their retreat cut off can respond according, or the Marine commander may even choose beacon to save his/her comrades. After all, the most fun parts of the game are about intelligent decision-making.
There are 3 levels of potential problems with infestation spikes current and future assuming their design goal is to block and hamper marines. <i>Some are a problem even if marines are made aware of it in advance such as a mine trigger</i>.
<!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><b>1) Big exploit and game breaking behaviour.</b><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
This includes sectioning marines off from large areas of the map, slowing their advance incredibly (speed of movement is key to successful marine expansion and offence due to higher alien mobility) and/or trapping them for eternity. This is fixed to a large extent by Flayra's change but not completely.
<!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><b>2) Squad movement behaviour, locational superiority, and onos/gorge chasing</b><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
Infestation spike changes team vs team numerical advantages in the same way that spartans abused the hot gates of Thermopylae. It doesn't matter how many marines you send to take a room - spikes will ensure defenders only face one or two marines at a time. This occurs around every corner where the cyst is out of LOS and covered by hydras and clogs. Marines have no way to kill the cyst and any attempt to run around said corner to do so will result in an infestation spike instantly splitting the lead marine/s from the rest of the squad. This kind of mechanic renders team play and locational superiority in numbers ineffective and is bad for strategic gameflow. It actively discourages squad play and encourages split-up solo play. All of you who are arguing that spikes add strategic depth have to realise that infestation spikes also take away alot of strategic and tactical depth. Arguably more than it gives.
This 2nd level involving player vs player interaction has huge implications for 'metagame' (i know thats the wrong word but you know what i mean) balance and the way marines advance and approach expansion.
<!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><b>3) The fun aspect.</b><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
<b>As a marine</b>, it is not fun to not have control over your positioning. It is not fun to know you have a 0% chance of winning and no other option but to go around that corner anyway, get separated from the rest of your squad and shot to death by hydra's without a chance to escape. Thankfully i have not been in this position yet but i can empathize. In addition, this encourages ARC/GL spam and discourages direct player vs player combat, leading to boring siege type gameflow.
<b>As an alien</b>, it is not fun to be trapped as a higher lifeform by a bad khammander. More importantly, it is not fun to be griefed purposely by your kham especially when you are an Onos. Lets run through a simple list of questions to evaluate infestation spike and the fun it adds.
Who has fun?
<i>- One player, the alien commander. Potentially two players (the gorge saved by the infestation spike or the corner onos being fed kills).</i>
Who definitely will not have fun?
<i>-Half the players on the server.</i>
Who will potentially not have fun?
<i>-Every player on the entire server.</i>
Destroying cysts to prevent infestation spikes is a very slow process while waiting for the infestation to recede. Spikes should be dependent on a nearby cyst + infestation. The cyst would act as powering the infestation spike (like a pylon powers a building in starcraft). If Marines want to avoid infestation spikes as they push into alien territory, they need only to destroy cysts rather than wait for infestation to recede before they can press forward. This also creates an interesting mechanic where the infestation spike itself is invulnerable, but the cyst powering it is the weak link. (Imagine a visual cue of the cyst changing from the current bright orange to a dark purple when it is powering the infestation spike.)
Griefing ono's with infestation spikes is another problem. In SC2 the ultralisk is a "massive" unit that can breakthrough forcefields. Give the onos the same ability to break right through infestation spikes. The Khamm will need to garden more carefully around an onos.
then you get the problem of the onos players "griefing" the commander
(in sc2, forcefields aren't made by the zerg player controlling the ultralisk)
in any discussion of griefing, it's much easier to accept that griefing will always happen, and it's up to server admins to deal with it
spending a lot of design time to make a game difficult to grief always ends up to be a waste of time, and the side-effects for regular gameplay are usually pretty unintuitive
(in sc2, forcefields aren't made by the zerg player controlling the ultralisk)
in any discussion of griefing, it's much easier to accept that griefing will always happen, and it's up to server admins to deal with it
spending a lot of design time to make a game difficult to grief always ends up to be a waste of time, and the side-effects for regular gameplay are usually pretty unintuitive<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Let the onos grief the Khamm. Let him destroy the infestation spikes that are blocking marines on the other side so the marines can now shoot the onos and kill a 70 pres lifeform while the Khamm lost 5 tres. This is far better than the opposite situation where a Khamm could use 5-tres to trap a 70-pres lifeform and get it killed.
I agree griefing cannot not be prevented completely, but there is not always an admin nearby and sometimes there are easy tweaks that go a long way to lessen griefing.
I think a giant space gorilla breaking through infestation spikes is intuitive. A space marine breaking through infestation spikes would look odd... :)
a space marine with a grenade launcher..?
This principle is true for every other FPS game. But NS2 is an FPS RTS Hybrid. If you don't want to completely detach the commander from the other players you need to have some sort of interaction. So instead of blindly pushing in the "you shouldn't do that"-argument, you should think about the pros and cons. As long as it creates fun for enough people and the frustration factor isn't to high, it's ok.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i think the complaints are mostly about commanders directly helping in the middle of a fight ie. nanoshield.
were it up to me I'd keep most/all the commander-to-player abilities out of combat, or at least make the ability/item unusable in combat. if regen doesn't kick in until a few seconds after the alien leaves combat then the same mechanic can be applied elsewhere (i'd love to see medpacks behave the same way. have them sit on the ground for a couple seconds until after the marine leaves combat).
Yes, arcs would make structure spam easier to deal with. But even with arcs, aliens only need to hold off the marine advance for 10 seconds before an unavoidable, invincible, wall gives them free time to munch on the arcs and begin replacing lost structures. Also who really wants to rely on arcs to win a game for them anymore? Spikes encourage long siege-type battles with NPCs generally deciding the outcome, a gamestyle which has been complained about at length on these forums.
Edit: Oh, and everything Elodea said. Can probably disregard my post since he summed up the situation so nicely.
Or you can trap some marines and teleport whips onto them xD. I encourage you all to try it before the changes to infestation spike come in next build that prevent 2 spike trapping hehehe.
<!--quoteo(post=1949482:date=Jul 7 2012, 06:55 AM:name=Flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flayra @ Jul 7 2012, 06:55 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1949482"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I really like the concept of the infestation spike, but definitely don't want it to slow down or obstruct the game too much.
I reduced the spike time from 12 to 5 seconds and cranked up the cooldown to 10 seconds. Let's see where that gets us.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A game designer at its best!
- You can't "place" them (ie., turn them out of their default vertical orientation) to block a marine unless a player is seeing them - presumably this is to take away the exploit of detecting non-moving marines.
- Their alive time is very quick - hardly useful for blocking.
- Still don't block arc trains.
- Still can place "on" a marine and get cooldown penalized without actually spending res or seeing the spikes.
Let me place them like a phase gate, let me place just one at a time and give it HP instead of a time limit... I think this would actually make it useful, intuitive for both sides, and fun to use.