Reworking the way mines are handled.
Rise
Join Date: 2012-04-17 Member: 150595Members
Join Date: 2012-04-17 Member: 150595Members
First my issues with mines as they are:
You're spending a lot of res on something disposable, which has a questionable level of impact on the game for the amount of res you're spending.
You don't even get the benefit of making the enemy waste res if an errant skulk dies on your trip mine. You're, at best, only buying time by killing skulks, but at the cost of a lot of personal res. I think the only really consistant and effective use of mines I've found is to sit on someone else's mine, acting as a deterrant against a skulk charging you, which can be helpful when you're a lone marine trying to defend an area. In a broader sense they can have some impact at acting as a short term force multiplier when you're trying to secure a new area with a group of marines against a large skulk counter attack, but unfortunately I think that role is extremely limited by the fact that they are almost useless against all other forms of aliens and there are simply too many ways to take out the mines when you're not dealing with exclusively skulks.
There are three ways to go about fixing this:
1. Make them cheap enough that you don't feel like you are sacrificing a weapon later for the sake of limited use temporary mines now. This has the potential though to be too powerful in the early game if the cost is that low, but if you don't go low enough then the same issue remains.
2. Make them more deadly (so they are actually a threat to a passing lerk or fade) and survivable (reduce the number of ways in which they can be killed, and make it more dificult for that to happen), so they are worth the cost, and have more application beyond the skulk stage so the ones you placed early don't go to waste in the mid game.
3. Address the issue of permability. Make up for their limited application and ease of destruction by changing the dynamic of how they are acquired and placed.
Imagine if players, or the commander, could purchase a mine rack at a particular armory. This would provide for a limited number of mines that could be pulled off it and placed. The stockpile would regenerate over time once destroyed.
The cost would be worthwhile because they can be resused, so even though their late game performance is pretty laughable it would be acceptable because they were "free" to keep placing as a limited hinderance to the alien's attacks.
You're spending a lot of res on something disposable, which has a questionable level of impact on the game for the amount of res you're spending.
You don't even get the benefit of making the enemy waste res if an errant skulk dies on your trip mine. You're, at best, only buying time by killing skulks, but at the cost of a lot of personal res. I think the only really consistant and effective use of mines I've found is to sit on someone else's mine, acting as a deterrant against a skulk charging you, which can be helpful when you're a lone marine trying to defend an area. In a broader sense they can have some impact at acting as a short term force multiplier when you're trying to secure a new area with a group of marines against a large skulk counter attack, but unfortunately I think that role is extremely limited by the fact that they are almost useless against all other forms of aliens and there are simply too many ways to take out the mines when you're not dealing with exclusively skulks.
There are three ways to go about fixing this:
1. Make them cheap enough that you don't feel like you are sacrificing a weapon later for the sake of limited use temporary mines now. This has the potential though to be too powerful in the early game if the cost is that low, but if you don't go low enough then the same issue remains.
2. Make them more deadly (so they are actually a threat to a passing lerk or fade) and survivable (reduce the number of ways in which they can be killed, and make it more dificult for that to happen), so they are worth the cost, and have more application beyond the skulk stage so the ones you placed early don't go to waste in the mid game.
3. Address the issue of permability. Make up for their limited application and ease of destruction by changing the dynamic of how they are acquired and placed.
Imagine if players, or the commander, could purchase a mine rack at a particular armory. This would provide for a limited number of mines that could be pulled off it and placed. The stockpile would regenerate over time once destroyed.
The cost would be worthwhile because they can be resused, so even though their late game performance is pretty laughable it would be acceptable because they were "free" to keep placing as a limited hinderance to the alien's attacks.
Comments
Mines are also extremely powerful imo, they do their job well of helping to add an extra layer of protection to marine RT or forward positions (armories or PGs). They are very good at catching retreating higher lifeforms also (lifeforms that have been widdled down to just HP and little/no armor).
Each mine does 125 light damage (light damage does 25% dmg to armor, full dmg to HP). That is fine imo, if anything needs changing it's the new carapace values that need to be reverted, 50 armor skulks makes them pretty impervious to mines, it takes 3 mines to kill a cara skulk (cara skulks have 270 effective HP VS light dmg). Same with lerks although getting lerks with mines is somewhat of a rarity.
edit: I also think mines should be something the comms need to learn to use their p-res on, mines+welders really seem like that should be where the comms' p-res pool is invested into, leaving more p-res for the players to get weapons/jps.
Another fix I had in mind was, that for each kill you make with a mine you get some of the costs refunded.
Ah, but there is one thing that the old hydra model taught us - That they simply weren't effective enough to justify the pres cost. So now they are not only free, but replaceable.
Limited deterrance, deterrence that falls away in effectiveness as the game goes on, is not worth the investment of pres. There are far more useful ways to employ that the vast majority of the time.
The same is true of mines (which are even worse off because they are a one shot affair), which is why it's only viable when comms spend their Pres on it. You can't justify sacrificing a weapon upgrade for mines.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->They are very good at catching retreating higher lifeforms also (lifeforms that have been widdled down to just HP and little/no armor).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That implies you've placed mines behind them. Not likely.
They don't do enough damage to heavy armor to pose a worthwhile threat to fades and onos. They might slow them down as they take the time to kill the mines or avoid them, but kills are very rare to see.
Lerks will fly right past without taking much damage.
Worst of all, they are easily spotted and taken out by a myriad of alien abilities - Spikes, bile bomb, stomp. Their deterrence power is almost completely gone once those abilities are on the field.
Limited deterrance, deterrence that falls away in effectiveness as the game goes on, is not worth the investment of pres. There are far more useful ways to employ that the vast majority of the time.
The same is true of mines (which are even worse off because they are a one shot affair), which is why it's only viable when comms spend their Pres on it. You can't justify sacrificing a weapon upgrade for mines.
That implies you've placed mines behind them. Not likely.
They don't do enough damage to heavy armor to pose a worthwhile threat to fades and onos. They might slow them down as they take the time to kill the mines or avoid them, but kills are very rare to see.
Lerks will fly right past without taking much damage.
Worst of all, they are easily spotted and taken out by a myriad of alien abilities - Spikes, bile bomb, stomp. Their deterrence power is almost completely gone once those abilities are on the field.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sounds like mines are working as intended. Sometimes they're the best thing you can pickup (like early game pushes). All the other time they're unmanned static defense. Static defense shouldn't be getting many kills on players unless those players have made a mistake or were forced to make a mistake by other players.
Limited deterrance, deterrence that falls away in effectiveness as the game goes on, is not worth the investment of pres. There are far more useful ways to employ that the vast majority of the time.
The same is true of mines (which are even worse off because they are a one shot affair), which is why it's only viable when comms spend their Pres on it. You can't justify sacrificing a weapon upgrade for mines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I kind of like this, but I would make the marine purchase a mine supplier, that replaces an existing weapon slot (i.e. you can have the axe or mines, but not both). However, you'd probably have to nerf the existing mine damage so that they aren't op.
And the Flamethrower. It doesn't do enough damage, so its not really worth a PRes investment. So it should be free too.
What about the Welder? ALL marines should get free Welders cause everyone needs them all the time.
And don't forget those Kharaa y'all -> Hydras and Clogs aren't the only thing that should be free. Why are we paying for Harvestors? They make the res anyway right? Whats that all about? EVERYTHING should be free for EVERYONE. That would be fair.
/end troll rant
Seriously, we need things to cost MORE res, not less. Its a freaking RTS -> in an RTS you BUY things with RESOURCES. This free stuff is getting ridiculous.
I'd suggest reading my post more carefully:
I didn't say do both at the same time, but one or the other as a way to make it more viable.
And they wouldn't be free, you'd pay to buy a reusable stock that regenerates over time.
Mines take no less skill to use than a hydra, but that's irrelevant to the issue of making them a more viable tactical option.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sounds like mines are working as intended. Sometimes they're the best thing you can pickup (like early game pushes).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
These instances are far too limited in my opinion.
I think the game design should strive to make all the weapons as viable as possible at all stages of the game.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->All the other time they're unmanned static defense.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They are a failure in this role, which is why once that early game window is over they just become a waste of res.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Static defense shouldn't be getting many kills on players unless those players have made a mistake or were forced to make a mistake by other players.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not suggesting they be made effective as lone defensive options anyway.
If you dealt with the issue of resusability or cost, then we wouldn't mind their limited effectiveness outside of a few early game scenerios. If they were cheap we'd just use them early and then move on to weapons later (but not the ideal method of dealing with this imo). If we made them resusable to an extent, then their limited impact in the mid and late game would be acceptable because we'd be glad to get their added benefit for "free".
On the other hand, if they were just made outright more deadly and harder to destroy, then they would have a viable place throughout the game and their steep cost might be justified.
And the Flamethrower. It doesn't do enough damage, so its not really worth a PRes investment. So it should be free too.
What about the Welder? ALL marines should get free Welders cause everyone needs them all the time.
And don't forget those Kharaa y'all -> Hydras and Clogs aren't the only thing that should be free. Why are we paying for Harvestors? They make the res anyway right? Whats that all about? EVERYTHING should be free for EVERYONE. That would be fair.
/end troll rant
Seriously, we need things to cost MORE res, not less. Its a freaking RTS -> in an RTS you BUY things with RESOURCES. This free stuff is getting ridiculous.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Your analogies all make no sense.
In the scheme of cost vs reward, mines do not add up.
The other weapons, however, do add up. They are worth buying all throughout the game, and their cost is worthwhile.
Mines are only cost effective in very limited circumstances where their presence allows you to turn some key early battles around, but even then it's only worth trying if you use the commander's pres to do it.
From a game design perspective the window of usefulness is too low for the cost, and spending your own pres on mines is likely to cripple your ability to push in the mid game. It's not a good tradeoff.
You've made no compelling point as to why mines aren't good. Mines, in fact, are good investments in certain circumstances no matter how much you complain that they can't kill everything and aren't free. An investment of pres is not a guarantee of effectiveness. You have to know the capabilities and limitations of your investment. I can buy a shotgun then run out and die. That shotgun was a bad pres investment. Should I be able to buy a shotgun rack which regenerates a shotgun over time?
You've made no compelling point as to why mines aren't good. Mines, in fact, are good investments in certain circumstances no matter how much you complain that they can't kill everything and aren't free. An investment of pres is not a guarantee of effectiveness. You have to know the capabilities and limitations of your investment. I can buy a shotgun then run out and die. That shotgun was a bad pres investment. Should I be able to buy a shotgun rack which regenerates a shotgun over time?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree with this 100%. They are already powerful in early game if used right. And since buying time will also increase your teams and your own resources (since a dead alien can't destroy any rt) they are fine. Killing a marine which is standing in a mine field without dying is nearly impossible.
+1 to that. All I was saying (besides what GORGEous so eloquently said) was the bit at the bottom: "Seriously, we need things to cost MORE res, not less. Its a freaking RTS -> in an RTS you BUY things with RESOURCES. This free stuff is getting ridiculous."
As far as I have seen, Mines are extremely effective for their cost. I don't think they need any sort of buff -> definitely not a "free rack". Yes I see that someone is paying for it at first, but that just means its exponentially making them cheaper -> to the point of being free. No they aren't super awesome at the end, but they do still provide area protection. I also see you saying that this "free rack" would limit how many mines are out at once, but all I see happening would be a losing team of marines with a constant supply of mines to line up at the doors and further prevent the kharaa from finishing them off.
Just because they are spammed doesn't mean they are doing any good outside of the opening stages of the game.
Sometimes they get spammed out of desperation and just go to waste anyway.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You've made no compelling point as to why mines aren't good.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Just because you say that doesn't make it true. I brought up a lot of valid points, which you didn't refute, other than to say you think their very narrow application and high cost is fine as it currently is.
I don't consider that successful game design when a weapon with so much potential has such a limited range of effective use - Evidenced by the fact that nobody really considers the mine useful enough to justify spending their pres on it, which is why in most games in only really makes sense for the comm to waste his pres on supplying them at early points in the game at key locations.
I also don't consider it ideal game design when one of the weapons ceases to be useful for 2/3s of the game. The other weapons and welders are always useful and worth their cost.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Any change which increases the effectiveness of an item that takes no skill to use or which promotes the care-free use of said skill-less item is a bad change.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You increase the effectiveness of an item to where it becomes worth the cost and has a sufficient level of use.
Your standard of a weapon having to require manual skill to be useful in the game is your own invention, and if that were the standard an RTS/FPS hybrid used then we wouldn't have hydras or turrets in this game either.
Mines are a tactical weapon, this is not simply a twitch game where the only thing that matters is is skill curve.
Cost and tactical application are the primary considerations on the RTS side.
You can make mines continue to be crappy for the fact that they don't require much skill to apply, but if they are going to be crappy then you have to adjust the way they are employed to have a wider tactical application or reduce the cost so it's more uniformly worthwhile.
Hydras, for instance, are pretty crappy, but still good enough that a single gorge with minimal support can hold up a hallway for most of the game - Yet they are free and easy to replace. I'm not even suggesting mines be completely free or that quick to replace, but the cost vs reward curve is off balance for mines right now.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Mines, in fact, are good investments in certain circumstances<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Those circumstances are too narrow and limited.
The 10 PRes is for the lifeform of Gorge, not the ability Hydra. Yes technically you must pay to use the ability, but in the same sense you could say that Spores aren't free - you have to pay 30 PRes to get them. And I think I may go so far as to say that Hydras are pretty much always useless right now. Sometimes they are a minor deterrence, but typically they do nothing. Hmm, with hit reg being such a big issue with the game, I wonder if that's not the major issue with Hydras as well.
<!--quoteo(post=1951889:date=Jul 16 2012, 03:51 AM:name=Benson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Benson @ Jul 16 2012, 03:51 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1951889"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What if mines got buffed from marine weapon upgrades? (lv 0/1/2/3 mine dmg)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I thought this already happened. If it really doesn't happen yet, I'm not so sure what I think about adding it. I definitely don't think a 15 PRes investment should kill an Onos (75Pres) or a Fade (50PRes) on its own -> shouldn't even take half their life. It should kill a Gorge, or Skulk, even in late game, if that's not happening then they may need a buff. Maybe play with w0 mine doesn't kill c3 skulk, but a w3 mine does. The only questionable one is the Lerk - I'm thinking it should kill them because they should be aware of their surroundings and typically they can fly over a mine for free. Even though they are a 30 PRes investment, it should logistically never happen - so it should reward the Marine and teach (kill) the Lerk.
You completely ignored my argument that the marine still stays a marine after buying the mines. Sure you pay for the gorge not for the hydras them self but the alien player becomes a support unit which isn't able to fight effectively and he has to stay a gorge so that the hydras won't despawn after some time. That a big difference in my eyes and that why they shouldn't be compared.
A good start
mines aren't meant for late-game insta-kills basically, maybe to surprise cripple an onos and then finish it off for example.
I think you and I are arguing for the same point, but against each other on the example. (Unless I'm wrong) You're arguing for Mines not to be made free because they aren't the same as Hydras which are free. I'm saying that Mines should not be made free, and also Hydras should no longer be free - because "free" does not work. Period. "Free" = Bad in an RTS game.
More or less my main point was that i don't agree with you that hydras are for free, since you lose your ability to fight for building hydras which is different for the marines, who are still able to fight after buying mines.
So.. you're saying that not only are you paying 10 PRes for the Gorge, but you're also paying in combat power since the Gorge is so much weaker than a standard marine? If that's what you're saying, I whole heartedly agree with you - hence why the Hydra should actually cost PRes again so that it can be made more powerful and more useful again. This would make the Gorge a stronger class again, and balance out the use of the class in general. 10 PRes is too cheap for too crappy a product, separate the cost of the Gorge from the Hydras.
Kind of off topic about Mines though..