<!--quoteo(post=1952028:date=Jul 16 2012, 03:59 PM:name=botchiball)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (botchiball @ Jul 16 2012, 03:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1952028"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So.. you're saying that not only are you paying 10 PRes for the Gorge, but you're also paying in combat power since the Gorge is so much weaker than a standard marine? If that's what you're saying, I whole heartedly agree with you - hence why the Hydra should actually cost PRes again so that it can be made more powerful and more useful again. This would make the Gorge a stronger class again, and balance out the use of the class in general. 10 PRes is too cheap for too crappy a product, separate the cost of the Gorge from the Hydras.
Kind of off topic about Mines though..<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree with you, and like you already said it's off topic to discuss the strength of hydras. That's why i was just arguing why the mines shouldn't become for free.
On the point about gorges and hydras: you have to remember that hydras use to be permanent back when they cost res, thus they weren't tied to being a gorge. And that model was still a failure because they simply weren't worth the res.
On another point: Marines doesn't have to give up their weapon to use a welder either. Aliens have to give up other lifeforms to go gorge though.
It's not a big deal because the welder is well priced and is useful at all stages of the game.
I don't find mines well priced or consider it well designed when they have no cost effective use outside the opening stages of the game.
Allowing the damage of mines to scale with weapon ups wouldn't make them overpowered at all. it would only be a 30% increase in damage, and i believe i read in this thread that mines do light damage -makes them MUCH less effective late game anyway-, keeping current values they would still only be a threat to skulks really and only slightly more effective on higher life forms.
For an example of what light damage can do to a weapon, the shotgun is now amazing at taking down Onoses now that it is normal instead of light, maybe switching the damage to normal would keep them useful all game
Normal damage and weapon scaling would do a lot to make them at least useful at holding ground against fades, giving you a better chance at taking them out before they get away. Fades can be a huge problem even for groups of marines, so this could be a necessary way of holding ground against their hit and run attacks.
Stomp would still render all mines useless, but that's not as much of a problem since the onos is suppose to be a siege breaker. I don't mind the bile bombing gorge taking out mines since support is his role and he's more vulnerable. However, I do mind though the lerk being able to spike down mines from a distance and get away easily. I'd like to see mines more resistant to lerk spikes so that it's risky for them to take down mines that have marines guarding them (ie. it takes time, time that the marines will have to shoot down the lerk).
<!--quoteo(post=1952057:date=Jul 16 2012, 09:28 PM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Jul 16 2012, 09:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1952057"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Normal damage is a terrible idea. Stop trying to buff things which are perfectly balanced now. Changes like this are terrible.
You really think mines should counter fades? REALLY? This thread has become a serious case of L2P.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree with this. We still play a multiplayer game and shouldn't put to much power and importance into non player objects. They are fine in early game and there is no problem with them losing their importance over the game time. Hydras are becoming useless in late game as well.
AngeluszHarmonic entropistJoin Date: 2003-07-10Member: 18072Members, Forum Moderators, Constellation, NS2 Playtester
<!--quoteo(post=1952087:date=Jul 17 2012, 11:46 AM:name=Nakorson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nakorson @ Jul 17 2012, 11:46 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1952087"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I agree with this. We still play a multiplayer game and shouldn't put to much power and importance into non player objects. They are fine in early game and there is no problem with them losing their importance over the game time. Hydras are becoming useless in late game as well.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Although I agree that they should not 'counter' fades, I do think each class and item should have some merits in lategame as well. It'd just be a waste not having a use for them, as they can definitely bring some tactics into the game when used well.
Becoming less effective is no problem as far as I'm concerned, becoming useless is.
<!--quoteo(post=1952088:date=Jul 17 2012, 04:11 AM:name=Angelusz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Angelusz @ Jul 17 2012, 04:11 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1952088"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Although I agree that they should not 'counter' fades, I do think each class and item should have some merits in lategame as well. It'd just be a waste not having a use for them, as they can definitely bring some tactics into the game when used well.
Becoming less effective is no problem as far as I'm concerned, becoming useless is.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well they're not really useless in late game not as effective as in the early game.
<!--quoteo(post=1952102:date=Jul 17 2012, 07:26 AM:name=LPC)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (LPC @ Jul 17 2012, 07:26 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1952102"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->with mines and a shotgun you may have killed that onos, with only a shotgun, you may not have, how are they not cost-effective then?
if you have jetpacks then yeah they're pretty useless.
but hey, isn't spit also useless when you have bile-bomb???<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I agree with the bit about the Mine + the Shotgun, but even with Jetpacks Mines can still be of use. They just aren't as important as they were at first.
Spit is still useful as Bile-Bomb does not hurt players, albeit that Spit is always weak. I would be curious to know how many people actually use it though.
You could argue that Xenocide/skulk late game is counter-cost-effective due to the terrible RFD model in the game right now.
I think mines are still very viable late game, if the marines are doing well you should still have enough res to buy them and secure vents and PGs from skulks/harass.. no they probably will not one-shot things but they are still a big deterrent, and if you see a fade/onos walk into some mines they can be in serious trouble if you start chasing them down.
please for the love of god do not buff the completely skill-less, spammable, AoE, static defense mechanism.
AngeluszHarmonic entropistJoin Date: 2003-07-10Member: 18072Members, Forum Moderators, Constellation, NS2 Playtester
<!--quoteo(post=1952125:date=Jul 17 2012, 04:12 PM:name=rantology)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rantology @ Jul 17 2012, 04:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1952125"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->please for the love of god do not buff the completely skill-less, spammable, AoE, static defense mechanism.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's a good point too. Static defenses shouldn't be too strong. Still, I do think that selling mines individually would be a good change overall, without actually buffing them.
<!--quoteo(post=1952102:date=Jul 17 2012, 03:26 AM:name=LPC)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (LPC @ Jul 17 2012, 03:26 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1952102"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->with mines and a shotgun you may have killed that onos, with only a shotgun, you may not have, how are they not cost-effective then?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The chances of that are miniscule given how low the damage actually is against an onos. Thus, the cost of the res is just not worth taking that miniscule chance it might pay off. Taking that chance smacks more of desperation than sound tactics.
If they did normal damage, then maybe they would pose enough of a threat to where that could happen, and then we can talk about them being potentially cost effective as in mid and late game.
The cost/risk vs potential reward is just too far skewed in the mid and late game because of this.
<!--quoteo(post=1952192:date=Jul 17 2012, 02:19 PM:name=Rise)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Rise @ Jul 17 2012, 02:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1952192"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The chances of that are miniscule given how low the damage actually is against an onos. Thus, the cost of the res is just not worth taking that miniscule chance it might pay off. Taking that chance smacks more of desperation than sound tactics.
If they did normal damage, then maybe they would pose enough of a threat to where that could happen, and then we can talk about them being potentially cost effective as in mid and late game.
The cost/risk vs potential reward is just too far skewed in the mid and late game because of this.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Please don't forget the cost of the onos and the current cost of mines. It's damage can help against higher lifeforms, but a mine shouldn't be a thing you want to place to deal a lot of damage against a onos. It should be used against smaller life forms and to scare the aliens a bit so that they don't rush mindless into a marine camp. A bit off topic but i think the marines have already good defensive power since they have the sentries (which will probably receive a buff before 1.0) and that they are ranged based. I don't think they need mines which are powerful on their own in the late game.
If mines did normal damage, they'd be overpowered. Mines are fine, just learn how to use them. They shouldn't be outright killing anything. They're tools to help you kill things, not items that you buy, put down, and kill fades or lerks.
<!--quoteo(post=1952228:date=Jul 18 2012, 08:51 AM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Jul 18 2012, 08:51 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1952228"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If mines did normal damage, they'd be overpowered. Mines are fine, just learn how to use them. They shouldn't be outright killing anything. They're tools to help you kill things, not items that you buy, put down, and kill fades or lerks.
Paying 15 pres doesn't guarantee you kills.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> They should be able to kill a skulk, but otherwise I agree. If they can't kill a skulk then they're not worth pRes.
AurOn2COOKIES! FREEDOM, AND BISCUITS!AustraliaJoin Date: 2012-01-13Member: 140224Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Forum staff
Once again people are shouting "no we cannot has" To alot of perfectly legitimate statement, Mines ARE useless late game, and you can't deny this fact. skulks cost 0 res, yet one mine which costs 5 (i you exclude the other 2) doesn't even take it down to half health most cases (most cases = carapace) Best way to counter this is to scale it with upgrades. yet people are shouting "nooo too op cant do this", if i spend money on something, i want it to produce results, if something cant produce results vs something thats free, its immediately, entirely useless.
<!--quoteo(post=1953073:date=Jul 22 2012, 07:16 AM:name=AuroN2)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (AuroN2 @ Jul 22 2012, 07:16 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1953073"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->if something cant produce results vs something thats free, its immediately, entirely useless.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> But it IS producing results -> it is severely damaging the creature that steps on it.
The big problem I see you guys saying is that the Mine loses its effectiveness in late game -> which is true compared to early game. In early game, a mine kills a skulk 9 times out of 10; so you can just drop and forget and at some point a skulk will likely die on it. But what you're not realizing is that in late game you have to use the mines differently: instead of placing somewhere and letting the mine do all the work, you need to place it at an entrance to the Marine base, or next to a phase gate or power-node. This way when the Kharaa assault, you can look toward where your mine is and target THAT alien -> when your mine goes there is a good chance it will die right away or right after.
Other people suggested placing them at your feet when you're in combat then sitting on them/running through the mine field.
How you use mines and what their job is changes through the game, gotta be more flexible and more skilled. Don't like it, don't buy 'em late game.
I've seen Marines take down a fade single handed by sidestepping and using mines effectively, they really don't need a buff imo.
<!--quoteo(post=1953081:date=Jul 22 2012, 04:28 AM:name=botchiball)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (botchiball @ Jul 22 2012, 04:28 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1953081"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->. The big problem I see you guys saying is that the Mine loses its effectiveness in late game -> which is true compared to early game. In early game, a mine kills a skulk 9 times out of 10; so you can just drop and forget and at some point a skulk will likely die on it. But what you're not realizing is that in late game you have to use the mines differently: instead of placing somewhere and letting the mine do all the work, you need to place it at an entrance to the Marine base, or next to a phase gate or power-node. This way when the Kharaa assault, you can look toward where your mine is and target THAT alien -> when your mine goes there is a good chance it will die right away or right after.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> 99% of the the time this is a complete waste of res, yielding no kill against higher lifeforms, and easily destroyed by various means anyway. It's not a real deterrent or of value to a defense once you're no longer being attacked by just skulks. You'd have to be desperate to even try it, because you're wasting so much res that could be better spent giving the team shotguns.
<!--quoteo(post=1953122:date=Jul 22 2012, 02:44 PM:name=Rise)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Rise @ Jul 22 2012, 02:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1953122"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->99% of the the time this is a complete waste of res, yielding no kill against higher lifeforms, and easily destroyed by various means anyway. It's not a real deterrent or of value to a defense once you're no longer being attacked by just skulks. You'd have to be desperate to even try it, because you're wasting so much res that could be better spent giving the team shotguns.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's because you're using them with the notion that they should just outright kill players. Stop. Thinking. That.
Mines don't have to outright kill units to be useful. They're area denial. You put mines on the dark side of the RT; if a skulk harasses the RT then he either has to stand exposed or lose all/most of his health when he bites it. You also use mines to control vents which they are effective at all game long. Using mines to help defend phase gates and armories is also effective all game long.
Mines are supplementary. Not pay-15-pres-and-get-3-kills. They help you control areas.
I think the disconnect in this topic is largely that people are debating the matter in terms of a '1v1 Alien vs Marine duel'; which to me holds little validity in real meaning for the game NS/NS2.
A mine should never oneshot any lifeform except (maybe) a totally vanilla skulk. Mines serve many purposes throughout gameplay (as mentioned by Gorgeous), and are extremely useful when used correctly vs any lifeform except perhaps Onos. It should not be, in any way, a 'Spend 15 res, get one to three guaranteed kills'. It is a teamwork-type purchase and used for various team objectives, which they do excellently.
As they are, right now, mines are a little wonky (their tripping seems off, maybe some tweaks here/there), but in terms of balance and usefulness, are about where they should be.
<!--quoteo(post=1953128:date=Jul 22 2012, 11:20 AM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Jul 22 2012, 11:20 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1953128"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That's because you're using them with the notion that they should just outright kill players. Stop. Thinking. That.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, I'm not.
Mines are just not a cost effective way of even supplementing your combat against fades or onos. Onos will stomp them away, and they don't do enough damage to a fade to be a reliable way of letting you finish them off. Lerks will just fly past them, if they even trigger them.
They cost too much for having only a very small chance of being useful against higher lifeforms. You're spending a lot of res on the chance that the paltry light damage of a mine will impact a carapace onos or fade enough to turn the battle, but it's a risk not worth taking unless you're desperate or swimming in res.
Increasing damage is only one way of dealing with this issue. I gave a few other suggestions for a reason - If you can't make them more effective, then you can either make them cheaper or resuable to a certain extent to make up for the low chance they have of impacting the course of a battle during the mid and late game.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Mines don't have to outright kill units to be useful. They're area denial.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They aren't denying area to anything but skulks. That's the problem.
plz don't say that "99% of the time they are a complete waste of res"... that statement is just not true. many times I have killed a fade or even a lerk by placing 2-3 mines near eachother, and he got killed by fleeing past those mines. (yes, 1 mine doesn't do the trick anymore in mid-game, obviously)
or vice versa, I see the fade comming in, he takes two mines, all that leaves the marines to do is a 2-3 shotgun blasts or something and voilla.
FYI, this was mid-game and the onos didn't have stomp, and a lerk just dÃdn't happen to pass by yet. tralala
is this a 1% chance? no.
if you want to make kills with it then it's a matter of staying near (possibly in sight) of your mines, mid to late game it's just not a "free kill" like mentioned before, it's a defensive tool that requires you to use it in a tactical way.
not even only defensive, you can get near a hallway from their hive, drop a few mines, wait a little, BAM, go in, BAM, BAM etc. (later on maybe more BAMS)
if you make them stronger, believe me, they will get seriously OP because it would be childs play taking down fades when they're stronger.
make them cheaper and they'll get spammed all over the map, not fun for aliens AT ALL. That would be bad gameplay if you ask me....
The worst that could happen is that mines become enough of a threat that aliens are forced to make use of tier2 abilities to bring them down - Spikes, Bile Bomb, because it's too much of a risk to just ram their face into the mines (which is currently a rather efficient and often safe way to clear them).
Increasing mines damage does nothing to increase their effectiveness versus onos stomp. Or stop fades from blinking through them. Or stop lerks from avoiding them.
Perhaps mines just aren't meant to be lifeform killers that you can mindlessly spam around the ground and kill fades with?
<!--quoteo(post=1953288:date=Jul 23 2012, 05:12 PM:name=Rise)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Rise @ Jul 23 2012, 05:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1953288"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The worst that could happen is that mines become enough of a threat that aliens are forced to make use of tier2 abilities to bring them down - Spikes, Bile Bomb, because it's too much of a risk to just ram their face into the mines (which is currently a rather efficient and often safe way to clear them).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The worst that could happen (if you buff mine damage) is people spam mines everywhere because it's more effective at killing lifeforms than actually shooting the lifeforms. I don't know if you were around when you bought 3 mines for 5 pres, but it was terrible. Mines are fine as they are. They're area denial and supplemental damage in important areas like forward phase gates or armories.
<!--quoteo(post=1953303:date=Jul 23 2012, 02:13 PM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Jul 23 2012, 02:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1953303"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Increasing mines damage does nothing to increase their effectiveness versus onos stomp. Or stop fades from blinking through them. Or stop lerks from avoiding them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I gave three suggestions. Part of my suggestion for increased damage included being more survivable to forms of removal.
Blinking through them is not the problem. It's that they don't take enough damage when they stop to attack.
Lerks can take damage going past, but not enough.
Increasing damage would increase the chances your mines can pay off, improving the risk/reward ratio of the weapon. Part of the risk of using them is that they will be wasted fruitlessly through forms of removal. That's still a big risk, but at least it might be a risk worth taking if the payoff in damage is high once they do connect.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How much damage do you think they should be increased?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
10% with weapons 1 upgrade, 20% with weapons 2 upgrade, and 30% with weapons 3 upgrade. :P
Comments
Kind of off topic about Mines though..<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree with you, and like you already said it's off topic to discuss the strength of hydras. That's why i was just arguing why the mines shouldn't become for free.
And that model was still a failure because they simply weren't worth the res.
On another point: Marines doesn't have to give up their weapon to use a welder either. Aliens have to give up other lifeforms to go gorge though.
It's not a big deal because the welder is well priced and is useful at all stages of the game.
I don't find mines well priced or consider it well designed when they have no cost effective use outside the opening stages of the game.
For an example of what light damage can do to a weapon, the shotgun is now amazing at taking down Onoses now that it is normal instead of light, maybe switching the damage to normal would keep them useful all game
Fades can be a huge problem even for groups of marines, so this could be a necessary way of holding ground against their hit and run attacks.
Stomp would still render all mines useless, but that's not as much of a problem since the onos is suppose to be a siege breaker.
I don't mind the bile bombing gorge taking out mines since support is his role and he's more vulnerable.
However, I do mind though the lerk being able to spike down mines from a distance and get away easily. I'd like to see mines more resistant to lerk spikes so that it's risky for them to take down mines that have marines guarding them (ie. it takes time, time that the marines will have to shoot down the lerk).
You really think mines should counter fades? REALLY? This thread has become a serious case of L2P.
You really think mines should counter fades? REALLY? This thread has become a serious case of L2P.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree with this. We still play a multiplayer game and shouldn't put to much power and importance into non player objects. They are fine in early game and there is no problem with them losing their importance over the game time. Hydras are becoming useless in late game as well.
Although I agree that they should not 'counter' fades, I do think each class and item should have some merits in lategame as well. It'd just be a waste not having a use for them, as they can definitely bring some tactics into the game when used well.
Becoming less effective is no problem as far as I'm concerned, becoming useless is.
Becoming less effective is no problem as far as I'm concerned, becoming useless is.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well they're not really useless in late game not as effective as in the early game.
if you have jetpacks then yeah they're pretty useless.
but hey, isn't spit also useless when you have bile-bomb???
if you have jetpacks then yeah they're pretty useless.
but hey, isn't spit also useless when you have bile-bomb???<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree with the bit about the Mine + the Shotgun, but even with Jetpacks Mines can still be of use. They just aren't as important as they were at first.
Spit is still useful as Bile-Bomb does not hurt players, albeit that Spit is always weak. I would be curious to know how many people actually use it though.
I think mines are still very viable late game, if the marines are doing well you should still have enough res to buy them and secure vents and PGs from skulks/harass.. no they probably will not one-shot things but they are still a big deterrent, and if you see a fade/onos walk into some mines they can be in serious trouble if you start chasing them down.
please for the love of god do not buff the completely skill-less, spammable, AoE, static defense mechanism.
That's a good point too. Static defenses shouldn't be too strong. Still, I do think that selling mines individually would be a good change overall, without actually buffing them.
The chances of that are miniscule given how low the damage actually is against an onos. Thus, the cost of the res is just not worth taking that miniscule chance it might pay off. Taking that chance smacks more of desperation than sound tactics.
If they did normal damage, then maybe they would pose enough of a threat to where that could happen, and then we can talk about them being potentially cost effective as in mid and late game.
The cost/risk vs potential reward is just too far skewed in the mid and late game because of this.
If they did normal damage, then maybe they would pose enough of a threat to where that could happen, and then we can talk about them being potentially cost effective as in mid and late game.
The cost/risk vs potential reward is just too far skewed in the mid and late game because of this.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Please don't forget the cost of the onos and the current cost of mines. It's damage can help against higher lifeforms, but a mine shouldn't be a thing you want to place to deal a lot of damage against a onos. It should be used against smaller life forms and to scare the aliens a bit so that they don't rush mindless into a marine camp.
A bit off topic but i think the marines have already good defensive power since they have the sentries (which will probably receive a buff before 1.0) and that they are ranged based. I don't think they need mines which are powerful on their own in the late game.
Paying 15 pres doesn't guarantee you kills.
Paying 15 pres doesn't guarantee you kills.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They should be able to kill a skulk, but otherwise I agree. If they can't kill a skulk then they're not worth pRes.
Best way to counter this is to scale it with upgrades. yet people are shouting "nooo too op cant do this", if i spend money on something, i want it to produce results, if something cant produce results vs something thats free, its immediately, entirely useless.
But it IS producing results -> it is severely damaging the creature that steps on it.
The big problem I see you guys saying is that the Mine loses its effectiveness in late game -> which is true compared to early game. In early game, a mine kills a skulk 9 times out of 10; so you can just drop and forget and at some point a skulk will likely die on it. But what you're not realizing is that in late game you have to use the mines differently: instead of placing somewhere and letting the mine do all the work, you need to place it at an entrance to the Marine base, or next to a phase gate or power-node. This way when the Kharaa assault, you can look toward where your mine is and target THAT alien -> when your mine goes there is a good chance it will die right away or right after.
Other people suggested placing them at your feet when you're in combat then sitting on them/running through the mine field.
How you use mines and what their job is changes through the game, gotta be more flexible and more skilled. Don't like it, don't buy 'em late game.
I've seen Marines take down a fade single handed by sidestepping and using mines effectively, they really don't need a buff imo.
The big problem I see you guys saying is that the Mine loses its effectiveness in late game -> which is true compared to early game. In early game, a mine kills a skulk 9 times out of 10; so you can just drop and forget and at some point a skulk will likely die on it. But what you're not realizing is that in late game you have to use the mines differently: instead of placing somewhere and letting the mine do all the work, you need to place it at an entrance to the Marine base, or next to a phase gate or power-node. This way when the Kharaa assault, you can look toward where your mine is and target THAT alien -> when your mine goes there is a good chance it will die right away or right after.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
99% of the the time this is a complete waste of res, yielding no kill against higher lifeforms, and easily destroyed by various means anyway. It's not a real deterrent or of value to a defense once you're no longer being attacked by just skulks.
You'd have to be desperate to even try it, because you're wasting so much res that could be better spent giving the team shotguns.
You'd have to be desperate to even try it, because you're wasting so much res that could be better spent giving the team shotguns.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's because you're using them with the notion that they should just outright kill players. Stop. Thinking. That.
Mines don't have to outright kill units to be useful. They're area denial. You put mines on the dark side of the RT; if a skulk harasses the RT then he either has to stand exposed or lose all/most of his health when he bites it. You also use mines to control vents which they are effective at all game long. Using mines to help defend phase gates and armories is also effective all game long.
Mines are supplementary. Not pay-15-pres-and-get-3-kills. They help you control areas.
A mine should never oneshot any lifeform except (maybe) a totally vanilla skulk. Mines serve many purposes throughout gameplay (as mentioned by Gorgeous), and are extremely useful when used correctly vs any lifeform except perhaps Onos. It should not be, in any way, a 'Spend 15 res, get one to three guaranteed kills'. It is a teamwork-type purchase and used for various team objectives, which they do excellently.
As they are, right now, mines are a little wonky (their tripping seems off, maybe some tweaks here/there), but in terms of balance and usefulness, are about where they should be.
No, I'm not.
Mines are just not a cost effective way of even supplementing your combat against fades or onos.
Onos will stomp them away, and they don't do enough damage to a fade to be a reliable way of letting you finish them off.
Lerks will just fly past them, if they even trigger them.
They cost too much for having only a very small chance of being useful against higher lifeforms. You're spending a lot of res on the chance that the paltry light damage of a mine will impact a carapace onos or fade enough to turn the battle, but it's a risk not worth taking unless you're desperate or swimming in res.
Increasing damage is only one way of dealing with this issue. I gave a few other suggestions for a reason - If you can't make them more effective, then you can either make them cheaper or resuable to a certain extent to make up for the low chance they have of impacting the course of a battle during the mid and late game.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Mines don't have to outright kill units to be useful. They're area denial.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They aren't denying area to anything but skulks. That's the problem.
or vice versa, I see the fade comming in, he takes two mines, all that leaves the marines to do is a 2-3 shotgun blasts or something and voilla.
FYI, this was mid-game and the onos didn't have stomp, and a lerk just dÃdn't happen to pass by yet. tralala
is this a 1% chance? no.
if you want to make kills with it then it's a matter of staying near (possibly in sight) of your mines, mid to late game it's just not a "free kill" like mentioned before, it's a defensive tool that requires you to use it in a tactical way.
not even only defensive, you can get near a hallway from their hive, drop a few mines, wait a little, BAM, go in, BAM, BAM etc. (later on maybe more BAMS)
if you make them stronger, believe me, they will get seriously OP because it would be childs play taking down fades when they're stronger.
make them cheaper and they'll get spammed all over the map, not fun for aliens AT ALL. That would be bad gameplay if you ask me....
Perhaps mines just aren't meant to be lifeform killers that you can mindlessly spam around the ground and kill fades with?
<!--quoteo(post=1953288:date=Jul 23 2012, 05:12 PM:name=Rise)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Rise @ Jul 23 2012, 05:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1953288"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The worst that could happen is that mines become enough of a threat that aliens are forced to make use of tier2 abilities to bring them down - Spikes, Bile Bomb, because it's too much of a risk to just ram their face into the mines (which is currently a rather efficient and often safe way to clear them).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The worst that could happen (if you buff mine damage) is people spam mines everywhere because it's more effective at killing lifeforms than actually shooting the lifeforms. I don't know if you were around when you bought 3 mines for 5 pres, but it was terrible. Mines are fine as they are. They're area denial and supplemental damage in important areas like forward phase gates or armories.
I gave three suggestions.
Part of my suggestion for increased damage included being more survivable to forms of removal.
Blinking through them is not the problem. It's that they don't take enough damage when they stop to attack.
Lerks can take damage going past, but not enough.
Increasing damage would increase the chances your mines can pay off, improving the risk/reward ratio of the weapon. Part of the risk of using them is that they will be wasted fruitlessly through forms of removal. That's still a big risk, but at least it might be a risk worth taking if the payoff in damage is high once they do connect.
10% with weapons 1 upgrade, 20% with weapons 2 upgrade, and 30% with weapons 3 upgrade. :P