Skulk bite
.ADHd
Join Date: 2012-02-18 Member: 146565Members
Join Date: 2012-02-18 Member: 146565Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Too narrow now?</div>I've noticed a huge improvement in the ability for marines to kill skulks in the last build. Now I am fairly certain this only a little to do with performance or hit reg improvements. The skulks bite cone (The area in which your bite will register as a hit) has been dramatically decreased while the bite distance has remained almost the same.
When I first loaded up the build I couldn't "Reg" any bites on people like before so I assumed I just needed to be closer to reg a bite... that didn't help me too much either. One of my friends pointed out to me that the bite cone is much smaller now and since finding this out I have been getting a lot more kills, though not nearly as many as I was before this change.
The skulk feels overall very pitiful compared to a single marine now. You are pretty much forced to camp and wait for an attack. While that is a good tactic it puts the skulk on the defensive and allows marines to push further than they would otherwise have been able to. Is this a big problem? Marine win ratios are now at around 50% so we have seen an improvement, but I don't think making the skulk a joke class was the answer. You pretty much see people rushing 2nd hive with leap all the time now... because it's the only thing that really makes skulks deadly vs marines. Skulks are still useful when used in a swarming pack or to chomp down RT's, but on 1v1 engagements they are too weak now. Once the skulks get carapace however... they become unstoppable killing machines. I know this issue will be fixed next build.
I'd like to see if anyone else has a problem with the smaller bite cone. I have heard from other pretty good players that they think it is trash. I don't personally like it either, and the skulk shouldn't demand as much precision as a fade for his main attack.
If anything the skulk should be given back a decent amount of his wall jump mechanic to compensate for this smaller bite cone. Either that or give back the old bite cone and leave the movement the same. Either way the skulks have been nerfed pretty heavily just from that 1 seemingly small balance tweak. Perhaps find a happy medium that still demands accuracy but doesn't make it easymode either.
Just my thoughts.
When I first loaded up the build I couldn't "Reg" any bites on people like before so I assumed I just needed to be closer to reg a bite... that didn't help me too much either. One of my friends pointed out to me that the bite cone is much smaller now and since finding this out I have been getting a lot more kills, though not nearly as many as I was before this change.
The skulk feels overall very pitiful compared to a single marine now. You are pretty much forced to camp and wait for an attack. While that is a good tactic it puts the skulk on the defensive and allows marines to push further than they would otherwise have been able to. Is this a big problem? Marine win ratios are now at around 50% so we have seen an improvement, but I don't think making the skulk a joke class was the answer. You pretty much see people rushing 2nd hive with leap all the time now... because it's the only thing that really makes skulks deadly vs marines. Skulks are still useful when used in a swarming pack or to chomp down RT's, but on 1v1 engagements they are too weak now. Once the skulks get carapace however... they become unstoppable killing machines. I know this issue will be fixed next build.
I'd like to see if anyone else has a problem with the smaller bite cone. I have heard from other pretty good players that they think it is trash. I don't personally like it either, and the skulk shouldn't demand as much precision as a fade for his main attack.
If anything the skulk should be given back a decent amount of his wall jump mechanic to compensate for this smaller bite cone. Either that or give back the old bite cone and leave the movement the same. Either way the skulks have been nerfed pretty heavily just from that 1 seemingly small balance tweak. Perhaps find a happy medium that still demands accuracy but doesn't make it easymode either.
Just my thoughts.
Comments
Have been thinking this since the release..initially thought it was reg/lag, soon realised the cone had been adjusted.
Gave it a while and it still feels broken, by swapping those numbers the bite cone is significantly smaller making it almost comical.
Why should a marine that is 0.4m away be easier to bite than one 0.1m away? It shouldn't, melee as a strength means the closer I get the better and easier it is for me to attack not harder.
Why do we use a cone at all? it does not line up with the mouth/teeth at all...and the way it is used is wrong, flip the cone shape so that the wide end is at the skulks mouth, this will make it easier to get bites in when your really close but harder when your not.
The current approach of widening the hit zone as it spreads out is nonsensical, the current changes make the skulk bite feel very much hit and miss unless its the initial attack (which is at a slightly further distance to the subsequent ones where I am under the marines feet).
also, the worst offender of skulk bite cone atm is the fact that you don't reg a lot of hits when you're biting between marines' legs, even though it looks like you should (and sometimes the hit markers flash). also feels like sometimes when you're looking up at a marine while he's jumping back from you, your bites don't reg as much.
*edit*
another thing, i saw a screenshot of a hitreg tool in another thread and it looked like the skulk bite comprised 9 overlapping pyramids/tetrahedrons instead of a single cone.
why? it would be extremely easy to create a single cone hit box.
just make it detect in a circular or rectangular cone (non-occluded objects within |r| distance of bite cone orientation vector, give priority to enemy models), perhaps make the cone extend from the rear of the skulk so as to make the detection area bigger than 0 at the mouth, then discard hits from behind the mouth.
what is gained from splitting the hit things into 9 cones?
I love this change, skulk is just to damn easy to play. I have no problems with hit rego when biting, and when I've missed i know its cause they arn't on my xhair or I'm not close enough.
I played NS1 for 7 years though, so maybe I'm just used to it..
That should have been fixed months ago? I hated that bug.
If you can reproduce this with vid/screens, please do.
More ontopic: The skulk already has the most FOV of any player, including marines, i think its just the marine leg height when jumping / still able to fully jump after getting bit (instead of what occurs in ns1) But i do agree some odd stuff goes into those bite cones.. way out of my league on that subject, but i've been told its complicated. Ask "Sewlek"
If you can reproduce this with vid/screens, please do.
More ontopic: The skulk already has the most FOV of any player, including marines, i think its just the marine leg height when jumping / still able to fully jump after getting bit (instead of what occurs in ns1) But i do agree some odd stuff goes into those bite cones.. way out of my league on that subject, but i've been told its complicated. Ask "Sewlek"<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
well, 1/3 of the fov is blocked by teeth... (i meant vertical fov, not necessarily horizontal)
YEah the eyeballs in the mouth are annoying with the teeth taking up so much real estate.
Funny a lot of people whinged about the clutter on their screen after last patch....guess they dont play skulk much.
I don't know how it looks for you, but i definitely don't have 1/3 of my screen taken up with teeth?
Is it really 1/3 of your screen?
Playing @ 1920 x 1080:
<img src="http://i.imgur.com/QTOnM.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
If you can reproduce this with vid/screens, please do.
More ontopic: The skulk already has the most FOV of any player, including marines, i think its just the marine leg height when jumping / still able to fully jump after getting bit (instead of what occurs in ns1) But i do agree some odd stuff goes into those bite cones.. way out of my league on that subject, but i've been told its complicated. Ask "Sewlek"<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'll try and do some testing tonight and post up the video. It's actually 100% of the time for me, I literally cannot miss as fade.
As skulk you are pretty much relying on getting a solid 3 bite kill all in one burst of 3 bites. If you take too much longer you are going to get shredded by the marine. I see myself jumping and biting directly into a marine and missing? Even when my crosshair is perfectly on the marine. There is some kind of lag or interp issue... or this bite cone mess is just really bad.
All I can say is that either the hitreg has gotten monumentally better or the skulks simply can't hit crap now. I'm going with the latter.
Is it really 1/3 of your screen?
Playing @ 1920 x 1080:
<img src="http://i.imgur.com/QTOnM.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The original comment was about extending the view higher I was referring to the fact that the top and bottom chew into about 1/3 of the overall vertical view space. But the vertical FOV is a major issue in tracking a marine who is jumping to avoid being bitten.
Sure your view is not totally blocked but obscured is probably a better word but it does reduce the your visibility (imagine if exo's lost 40 degrees lateral FOV as they have to wear a different helmet people would be up in arms).
Also the view swings up and down (silly tongue) which make things slightly random as to how much of the top or bottom is obscured.
reduces your long range field of view as you have to centre you view a lot more.
When you start biting the impedance is greater still as you view is momentarily obstructed with each attack attempt.
No other alien life form is as impacted as much and none of the marine upgrades in way shape or form reduce their FOV, this makes tracking a jumping marine (for another day) very difficult and every marine is jumping around now like rabbits on crack. With such a small cone of attack up close and such challenges tracking skulks have a small window of opportunity before shotguns (maybe 3-4 min)...and again after carapace as long as you get it before W2 is in the field.
<ul><li>NS1 had the same, if not more, obstruction of teeth.</li><li>It may "chew into" a bit of the screen real estate, but in reality its no where near %30</li><li>Not all the marine upgrades are in yet, so we do not know whether they effect FOV.</li><li>See what i said above regarding differences in a marine jumping in ns1 vs ns2, its a big difference.</li><li>The bite range is still larger than ns1</li><li>Just look up and be more accurate when biting?</li></ul>
Interesting. I think it would work better and in a less random way if it was bound to the melee hit instead of just colliding with the other player. Eitherway, i definitely do like that its in atleast in some form.
I do not have the values but every class has different FOV, exos had the smallest, I believe 80 degrees.
Edit: Normal marines are 90 degrees, skulks are 110 degrees.
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=119628&st=0&p=1955373&#entry1955373" target="_blank">Cory posted about it</a>
I'd say bring those back for a wider skill curve.
Damage:
<!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->Red: 100%<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<!--coloro:#FFFF00--><span style="color:#FFFF00"><!--/coloro-->Yellow: 75%<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<!--coloro:#00FF00--><span style="color:#00FF00"><!--/coloro-->Green: 50%<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<img src="https://dl.dropbox.com/u/81802662/Unbenannt.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Hit feedback may be done via different marine screams and/or more or less blood?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If anything the skulk should be given back a decent amount of his wall jump mechanic to compensate for this smaller bite cone.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
+1
Imho wall jump should be buffed and leap should be nerfed, because the transition from hive1 to hive2 skulks just doesn't feel right.
Walljump is actually quite powerful the way it is right now. It doesnt accelerate you so quickly with just one jump, but if you can chain a couple of jumps it still gets fast. You also keep a lot of the momentum you have gained, even if you slowdown a lot at some point. Sometimes i go from 8 to 12+ speed almost instantly because i had chained a lot of jumps beforehand. Walljump wont help you much if you dont build the momentum up while travelling to the place where you want to engage.
And walljump is kinda cool(not perfect but not too bad either), the more you practice it, the more you'll like it.
You can use it for faster travel and engaging,you can build up very good speed almost everywhere, or if you got some time for preparations(walljump back and forth between nice walls) you can get to the max speed 20(?) relative easy in some areas (tho its insanely hard to not just crash into a wall and get nearly nothing out of it because its that fast - i cant handle it :P... ) Or you can use it between combat to make nice dodge moves. (its not only about movement speed)
Keep the bitecone, improve skulk movement instead. Allows for higher skill play.
Edit: Skulks need to move faster too. Currently marines sprint faster. This should not be the case.
<ul><li>NS1 had the same, if not more, obstruction of teeth.</li><li>It may "chew into" a bit of the screen real estate, but in reality its no where near %30</li><li>Not all the marine upgrades are in yet, so we do not know whether they effect FOV.</li><li>See what i said above regarding differences in a marine jumping in ns1 vs ns2, its a big difference.</li><li>The bite range is still larger than ns1</li><li>Just look up and be more accurate when biting?</li></ul><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<ul><li>What does the fact NS1 had it have to do with whether currently the skulk could do with more? A lot has changed from NS1</li><li>Not going to argue if its 30%, 20%, whatever%....I reckon they incroach up to about 1/3 of the overall screen...might be wrong, fact is that it does reduce visibility. Whilst I might be able to see more on the periphery losing the vertical axis visibility makes following a jumping marine trying to bite him harder.</li><li>I will happily accept the current skulk if the exo has a similarly difficult FOV (after all your exoskeleton would sit out from your body creating all sorts of issues seeing down)</li><li>But marines can still jump high enough to take them out of a skulks view (with a running jump)</li><li>We are not playing NS1 but NS2...the distance the bite has I dont care, the hit zones being more bigger 0.4m in front of skulk and smaller 0.1m is just wrong. </li><li>Yeah tried that...lack the skill ;)</li></ul>
I would happily see a nerf in range if the hit zone area around the skulk was increased, as I said flip the cone...makes more sense particularly if the damage is scaled as per the above post.
I'd like to know more about what the thought process behind this is. If it is an attempt to make people jump less in combat, it's pretty much a failure from the get-go -- it incentivizes marine jump spam.
I thought it was a bug, but it's meant to be a feature brought back from NS1. How'd it work there?
Marines got knocked back if they were mid-air when an alien melee attack hit them. During the very early versions the knockback was significant, comparable to the NS2 knockback, which caused a lot of grief for the alien players and gave marines ample reason to abuse jumping in close combat. For later versions the knockback was significantly scaled down, to the point where it only had a marginal effect on combat (good marines could use it to gain a slight advantage, but just spamming jump in close combat didn't help you at all).
The NS2 knockback seems to be based on a transfer of momentum; it has nothing to do with alien attacks hitting the marine. My impression is that if you bump into a marine while he is mid-air, he will go flying. I assume the direction and force of the knockback depends on the direction and speed of the skulk. I haven't properly tested it out though, just observed its effects ingame, so I could be wrong. Pretty strange implementation in any case and I don't know what they're trying to accomplish with it.
Yup, skulks are easier to kill. I see it purely as an effect of improved performance.
Yup, running skulks should go faster than sprinting marines. They have 4 legs after all.
Yup, walljumping should make a comeback. I think it's a decent enough mechanic to become iconic. So make it so.
Edit: Normal marines are 90 degrees, skulks are 110 degrees.
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=119628&st=0&p=1955373&#entry1955373" target="_blank">Cory posted about it</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=BalanceMisc.lua)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BalanceMisc.lua)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->kDefaultFov = 90
kEmbryoFov = 100
kSkulkFov = 105
kGorgeFov = 95
kLerkFov = 100
kFadeFov = 90
kOnosFov = 90
kExoFov = 80<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Keep in mind that these values are normalized for a 4:3 aspect ratio, so widescreen displays do get a lot higher of an FoV.
The NS2 knockback seems to be based on a transfer of momentum; it has nothing to do with alien attacks hitting the marine.
...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
nope, a force is being applied depending on damage. ideally it should only have a minimal effect, helping you just a little bit when timing your jump correctly. jump spam causes a slowdown, which 'should' work against you. i experienced myself that well timed jumps are currently too effective, especially combined with rifle knockback
Alright, I stand corrected. There's something weird going on with it though; it really doesn't seem like the attack is causing the knockback. Is there a delay between the attack and the knockback?
There are also some issues with the range, sometimes it's very short, other times it's huge, and all my experience with it is from skulk vs. marine, so it can't be the damage dependant force you're talking about.