<!--quoteo(post=1964341:date=Aug 17 2012, 11:50 AM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Aug 17 2012, 11:50 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1964341"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Walljumping is still extremely powerful. Getting to 12 speed is fairly easy in many parts the maps and if you have a little patience you can get it up to the speed cap of 20 without it really requiring any skill at all.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Care to Fraps reaching speed of 12, let alone 20, in build 216? I can't seem to get the technique down with the latest nerfs to walljumping. Actually, I can't even see how it's possible. The speed gain is just to small and it's gone before even getting to a new wall to jump off of.
It would be immensely helpful if you could put something up on YouTube so skilless people like myself can see what we're doing wrong, as it's apparently incredibly easy to do.
<!--quoteo(post=1964348:date=Aug 17 2012, 02:11 PM:name=asker)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (asker @ Aug 17 2012, 02:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1964348"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Care to Fraps reaching speed of 12, let alone 20, in build 216? I can't seem to get the technique down with the latest nerfs to walljumping. Actually, I can't even see how it's possible. The speed gain is just to small and it's gone before even getting to a new wall to jump off of.
It would be immensely helpful if you could put something up on YouTube so skilless people like myself can see what we're doing wrong, as it's apparently incredibly easy to do.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Get the timing right, and chain enough jumps. Thats about it. Obviously it depends a lot on where you do it, as not every spot in the map have enough closeby walls for it to get that fast.
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited August 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1964348:date=Aug 17 2012, 12:11 PM:name=asker)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (asker @ Aug 17 2012, 12:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1964348"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Care to Fraps reaching speed of 12, let alone 20, in build 216? I can't seem to get the technique down with the latest nerfs to walljumping. Actually, I can't even see how it's possible. The speed gain is just to small and it's gone before even getting to a new wall to jump off of.
It would be immensely helpful if you could put something up on YouTube so skilless people like myself can see what we're doing wrong, as it's apparently incredibly easy to do.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I won't have access to my home computer until Sunday evening, but I'll try to remember to do it. Not going to demonstrate the speed cap though, would rather not have half the community abusing unhittable speeds.
<!--quoteo(post=1964352:date=Aug 17 2012, 12:16 PM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Aug 17 2012, 12:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1964352"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I won't have access to my home computer until Sunday evening, but I'll try to remember to do it. Not going to demonstrate the speed cap though, would rather not have half the community abusing unhittable speeds.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The fastest way of getting your wish granted and having the walljumps nerfed would be to have half the community abusing it. UWE can't ignore it if it's so blatantly broken as you claim.
I'm not a good skulk. Sometimes I can't hit anything with it. But changing the mechanic to something where it is enough, to only have the marine on your screen to hit him, is wrong. This lowers the skill ceiling to the same level the skill floor is.
Also many people seem to need some math lessons again. With a FOV of 110° as Skulk, the bite cones are practically more like cubes, seen from the player. (Close to the picture Arkanti posted.) Thats because you need to remind the perspective. In fact it is NOT more difficult to hit a marine that is 0.1m away than one that is 0.4m away. <u>Actually it is even more difficult to hit a marine that is farther away.</u> Because of the FOV of 110° that shifts the geometry. Try it out! If you try to bite a marine foot that is 10cm left from your crosshair on your monitor, it won't count as hit no matter how far you move away. Remember, the geometry shifts, because you look through something like a fisheye.
<!--quoteo(post=1964360:date=Aug 17 2012, 11:04 PM:name=_Necro_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (_Necro_ @ Aug 17 2012, 11:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1964360"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm not a good skulk. Sometimes I can't hit anything with it. But changing the mechanic to something where it is enough, to only have the marine on your screen to hit him, is wrong. This lowers the skill ceiling to the same level the skill floor is.
Also many people seem to need some math lessons again. With a FOV of 110° as Skulk, the bite cones are practically more like cubes, seen from the player. (Close to the picture Arkanti posted.) Thats because you need to remind the perspective. In fact it is NOT more difficult to hit a marine that is 0.1m away than one that is 0.4m away. <u>Actually it is even more difficult to hit a marine that is farther away.</u> Because of the FOV of 110° that shifts the geometry. Try it out! If you try to bite a marine foot that is 10cm left from your crosshair on your monitor, it won't count as hit no matter how far you move away. Remember, the geometry shifts, because you look through something like a fisheye.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Sorry but I cant see how you can say its harder to hit objects further than closer to a skulk, maths lessons are needed yes but perhaps on your side of the fence as your arguments flawed. The hit zone encompasses a greater area (simple geometry here nothing complicated) in a top down cross section. Take a 1 inch cross section stepping out from the skulks nose to the end of its hit zone...total up the amount of hit zone contained within each inch, there is more space in the cross sections further from the skulks nose than closer. Coupled with the increased difficulty when the marines within 0.1 m (jumping over/around skulk etc) as its easier to get out of frame (again simple maths based on perspective (object has to travel further upwards the greater distance from the source to go out of the field of view).
Bloody programmable calculators and piss poor education systems are dumbing down the youngens I swear.
Upon further reflection and playing I think the bitecone works how it is right now, but it needs to work better. It needs to work how it does now but in a more straight forward way if that makes sense. Perhaps a little tweaking is all it needs. Maybe make the skulks just a hair more accurate up close. I do enjoy juking out skulks all the time due to this balance change. It's very fun to actually use the marine movement to its advantage now. So maybe I am not opposed to changing the bite cone if it gets tweaked but right now it feels off.
Also Fana, after seeing a bunch of people take up the hobby of jumping between 2 walls to get speed 24; I myself am for nerfing the skulk walljump... but only in regard to the top speeds that can be achieved with it.
Theres nothing wrong with getting a decent speed boost off a wall jump at the expense of air control. Right now you have too much air control and not enough speed increase initially. You should be able to get an immediate substantial speed boost from only a couple jumps or perhaps even just 1. But to balance it you would cap the skulks top speed to something acceptable and not going up into the 20's and etc. Perhaps just giving it a slight speed buff and losing speed when hitting the ground. So you would be encouraged to use skillful jumping between walls or else lose speed.
Also, you couldn't just keep building up speed over and over to eventually get up to an absurd speed. You should, however, be able to continue building up speed for a while until the speed becomes unacceptable and very exploitable.
<!--quoteo(post=1964360:date=Aug 17 2012, 07:04 AM:name=_Necro_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (_Necro_ @ Aug 17 2012, 07:04 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1964360"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm not a good skulk. Sometimes I can't hit anything with it. But changing the mechanic to something where it is enough, to only have the marine on your screen to hit him, is wrong. This lowers the skill ceiling to the same level the skill floor is.
Also many people seem to need some math lessons again. With a FOV of 110° as Skulk, the bite cones are practically more like cubes, seen from the player. (Close to the picture Arkanti posted.) Thats because you need to remind the perspective. In fact it is NOT more difficult to hit a marine that is 0.1m away than one that is 0.4m away. <u>Actually it is even more difficult to hit a marine that is farther away.</u> Because of the FOV of 110° that shifts the geometry. Try it out! If you try to bite a marine foot that is 10cm left from your crosshair on your monitor, it won't count as hit no matter how far you move away. Remember, the geometry shifts, because you look through something like a fisheye.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's not harder at all for me. The fisheye effect doesn't bother my judgement of distance at all.
I won't bore you with my theory on it but I'll just say I got used to the 110 FOV and have used FOV's like that in many games over years because I prefer it. I actually believe it improves my accuracy. Low FOV's feel like tunnel vision and restricts your view of the game. I personally hate anything below 90 and prefer 110-120. But to each their own I guess.
What Necro is saying is the cone takes up the same amount of pixels on the screen no matter the distance (FOV doesn't come into play here actually), meaning that anything within a rectangle on the screen will be hit no matter the distance. So as a player you don't need to take the distance into consideration when aiming.
You're right though that tracking a closer target requires greater mouse movements than one further away. And since we're dealing with a big mouth with big, nasty, pointy teeth, a box (what's this talk about inverted cones?) would make more sense. However, there seems to already be more than one cone, making it resemble a box (although I've never noticed the effect in game) so maybe this is a moot point.
<!--quoteo(post=1964374:date=Aug 17 2012, 06:40 AM:name=Agiel)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Agiel @ Aug 17 2012, 06:40 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1964374"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What Necro is saying is the cone takes up the same amount of pixels on the screen no matter the distance (FOV doesn't come into play here actually), meaning that anything within a rectangle on the screen will be hit no matter the distance. So as a player you don't need to take the distance into consideration when aiming.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Right. So in effect it's like having a wide crosshair on your screen. For a given distance less than X, if a Marine is within that box, you register a hit.
skulk movement is broken, and for a few reasons exploitable. Basically all you do is do some rather easy jumps for a while and then you get 20 speed for x amount of time depending on how long you do it. It's really just boring and unintuitive physics. I have to lift my mouse and it's a workout to do it as much as some I know can but the payoff is equivalent for a celerity skulk with leap, and being able to confuse the ###### out of any marines you run into because you can go from start to max speed faster than any racecar. I've made a video here showing how crazy skulk movement can be in 216:
IMO movement should be changed to how it was in HL1. The only met limitation should be player skill and map design, just like aim. Obviously you could go so fast as it is hard to control, and speed has less use in combat. Give skulk bhop and a better iteration of walljumping, give fades the smooth blink, marines consistent speed and no crazy movement slowdowns, etc. Let's see what they do about it in 217. As for the bite cone, inverted cone idea is the best by far. skulks should have an advantage on marines point-blank, that's how it is. Currently it's better to learn the range and keep at the maximum because it's easier to track marines jumping around.
The idea is that if a marine is skilled enough he can jump right as he's about to get bitten, pushing him away from the skulk, improving his odds of winning the fight as the skulk has to close in again.
<!--quoteo(post=1964487:date=Aug 18 2012, 06:21 AM:name=Typhon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Typhon @ Aug 18 2012, 06:21 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1964487"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The idea is that if a marine is skilled enough he can jump right as he's about to get bitten, pushing him away from the skulk, improving his odds of winning the fight as the skulk has to close in again.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1964492:date=Aug 18 2012, 06:46 AM:name=NeoRussia)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NeoRussia @ Aug 18 2012, 06:46 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1964492"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Not to mention it is inconsistent, same with the rifle butt melee which can sometimes knock skulks onto ceilings or walls.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yea, another problem is the odd way models and animations seem to lag behind alot in NS2 (beyond ping and interp), making any kind of model/movement reactionary based mechanics actually really hard to perform in the proper intended way.
<!--quoteo(post=1964374:date=Aug 18 2012, 12:40 AM:name=Agiel)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Agiel @ Aug 18 2012, 12:40 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1964374"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What Necro is saying is the cone takes up the same amount of pixels on the screen no matter the distance (FOV doesn't come into play here actually), meaning that anything within a rectangle on the screen will be hit no matter the distance. So as a player you don't need to take the distance into consideration when aiming.
You're right though that tracking a closer target requires greater mouse movements than one further away. And since we're dealing with a big mouth with big, nasty, pointy teeth, a box (what's this talk about inverted cones?) would make more sense. However, there seems to already be more than one cone, making it resemble a box (although I've never noticed the effect in game) so maybe this is a moot point.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well thats a very broken way of looking at it...and in no way able to see how the hit zone increases if your using the 1st person view...you need a topographical view to be able to see how the hit zone increases in space at it gets further away making it easier to hit marines slightly further away than right up close.
Yuuki most of us are after just the red line...no additional blue hit zone..just flip the cone.
one issue is that the marine's melee attack cone is much bigger (but shorter) than the skulk's bite. this makes for a strange scenario where skulks right next to a marine have a tougher time landing hits than marines do. <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=119867" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=119867</a>
<!--quoteo(post=1964472:date=Aug 17 2012, 11:59 AM:name=NeoRussia)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NeoRussia @ Aug 17 2012, 11:59 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1964472"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->skulk movement is broken, and for a few reasons exploitable. Basically all you do is do some rather easy jumps for a while and then you get 20 speed for x amount of time depending on how long you do it. It's really just boring and unintuitive physics. I have to lift my mouse and it's a workout to do it as much as some I know can but the payoff is equivalent for a celerity skulk with leap, and being able to confuse the ###### out of any marines you run into because you can go from start to max speed faster than any racecar. I've made a video here showing how crazy skulk movement can be in 216:
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZq_4y7sBLY&hd=1" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZq_4y7sBLY&hd=1</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I've railed a few times against various forms of -hopping, primarily on the basis of "it looks ridiculous." There are definitely positive aspects to having some sort of intuitive and fairly straightforwards (IE, you end up going faster in the direction you were trying to go) skill-based movement, and it does add to the game to have a good system in place. I think that video makes a pretty good arguement for the current skill-based movement system looking f***ing ridiculous, and being completely NONintuitive (bouncing back and forth between two walls lets you run at 90 miles an hour for a bit? really? why are new players supposed to even try that?).
Yuuki, NeoRussia, and others here made me think about my own impression on skulk bite. I decided to record what an in-game bite pattern would look like without the frantic frame dropping action.
I started by biting a surface at the maximum allowed distance to see what registers. I did this because I look back on NS1 videos and past experiences, and know there aren't these kind of inconsistencies.. maybe I'm misinterpreting things, but I know the NS2 skulk isn't as tight as NS1.
<!--quoteo(post=1964595:date=Aug 18 2012, 05:04 PM:name=MrRadicalEd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MrRadicalEd @ Aug 18 2012, 05:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1964595"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yuuki, NeoRussia, and others here made me think about my own impression on skulk bite. I decided to record what an in-game bite pattern would look like without the frantic frame dropping action.
I started by biting a surface at the maximum allowed distance to see what registers. I did this because I look back on NS1 videos and past experiences, and know there aren't these kind of inconsistencies.. maybe I'm misinterpreting things, but I know the NS2 skulk isn't as tight as NS1.
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zae93_zPYhk" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zae93_zPYhk</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yeah but you have remained a good 0.6-1 metre from the wall and based on the cone pattern it does reduce again at its greatest distance currently (as illustrated in some of the earlier posts). A wall is not a great example as the hitbox is much larger...but its the hit zone once the skulk gets within ~0.2 m that we see the hit box issue start popping up.
Also your tip of aiming down is right up there with saying just use parasite as its not as inconsistent....if we are looking downwards marines will jump out of sight quicker and easier.
The bunnyhop/walljump debate is separate to the bite discussion, whilst they are linked they are separate measure (movement v attack).
Coming straight from NS1 to this latest build feels absolutely awful. Bite feels very awkward when compared to NS1 (which is weird after reading this thread saying that its the same values). It maybe because I'm used to getting as close as possible to marines before biting them which is causing me to run thru them.
<!--quoteo(post=1964624:date=Aug 18 2012, 07:35 PM:name=Az0r_au)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Az0r_au @ Aug 18 2012, 07:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1964624"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Coming straight from NS1 to this latest build feels absolutely awful. Bite feels very awkward when compared to NS1 (which is weird after reading this thread saying that its the same values). It maybe because I'm used to getting as close as possible to marines before biting them which is causing me to run thru them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Takes a little getting used to az0r, just try not to jump at people. Instead circle strafe around marines when you get in close and aim diagonal up. I never loose track of marines using this technique..
Also when running at someone, if they time the jump right you'll push them away from you.
<!--quoteo(post=1964612:date=Aug 18 2012, 02:29 AM:name=hakenspit)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hakenspit @ Aug 18 2012, 02:29 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1964612"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yeah but you have remained a good 0.6-1 metre from the wall and based on the cone pattern it does reduce again at its greatest distance currently (as illustrated in some of the earlier posts). A wall is not a great example as the hitbox is much larger...but its the hit zone once the skulk gets within ~0.2 m that we see the hit box issue start popping up.
Also your tip of aiming down is right up there with saying just use parasite as its not as inconsistent....if we are looking downwards marines will jump out of sight quicker and easier.
The bunnyhop/walljump debate is separate to the bite discussion, whilst they are linked they are separate measure (movement v attack).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
When you're looking at max effective range it makes no difference if it is a wall, marine, MAC, or extractor, and my suggestion of looking down is only a few degrees to get the desired effect. If we are missing bites at an expected attack angle while jumping around, aiming downwards a few degrees is quite possible.
<!--quoteo(post=1964670:date=Aug 18 2012, 11:39 PM:name=MrRadicalEd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MrRadicalEd @ Aug 18 2012, 11:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1964670"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->When you're looking at max effective range it makes no difference if it is a wall, marine, MAC, or extractor, and my suggestion of looking down is only a few degrees to get the desired effect. If we are missing bites at an expected attack angle while jumping around, aiming downwards a few degrees is quite possible.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The discussion has not been about maximum range but where the largest hit zone should be, is it at the skulks mouth (what we are asking for) or about 0.5m in front of the skulk (current system where by closer you get harder to hit as the hit zone is smaller).
The fact the the shape of the bite are a cone that is narrower when your close to the marine and wider slightly further away from marine. This means that we somehow are meant to try to get close but not too close. It also means that getting the hits in on a marine after that first one is harder partly due to the fact your closer and the hit zone is smaller.
<!--quoteo(post=1964595:date=Aug 18 2012, 02:04 AM:name=MrRadicalEd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MrRadicalEd @ Aug 18 2012, 02:04 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1964595"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yuuki, NeoRussia, and others here made me think about my own impression on skulk bite. I decided to record what an in-game bite pattern would look like without the frantic frame dropping action.
I started by biting a surface at the maximum allowed distance to see what registers. I did this because I look back on NS1 videos and past experiences, and know there aren't these kind of inconsistencies.. maybe I'm misinterpreting things, but I know the NS2 skulk isn't as tight as NS1.
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zae93_zPYhk" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zae93_zPYhk</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I would suggest repeating your test with an actual enemy, and with 'trace all' on. I suspect that, like friendly fire, the 'wall sparks' only appear if the center of the 9 melee vectors hits the wall, and so is not a good indicator of how the bite hitboxes actually work.
Comments
Care to Fraps reaching speed of 12, let alone 20, in build 216? I can't seem to get the technique down with the latest nerfs to walljumping. Actually, I can't even see how it's possible. The speed gain is just to small and it's gone before even getting to a new wall to jump off of.
It would be immensely helpful if you could put something up on YouTube so skilless people like myself can see what we're doing wrong, as it's apparently incredibly easy to do.
It would be immensely helpful if you could put something up on YouTube so skilless people like myself can see what we're doing wrong, as it's apparently incredibly easy to do.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Get the timing right, and chain enough jumps. Thats about it. Obviously it depends a lot on where you do it, as not every spot in the map have enough closeby walls for it to get that fast.
It would be immensely helpful if you could put something up on YouTube so skilless people like myself can see what we're doing wrong, as it's apparently incredibly easy to do.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I won't have access to my home computer until Sunday evening, but I'll try to remember to do it. Not going to demonstrate the speed cap though, would rather not have half the community abusing unhittable speeds.
The fastest way of getting your wish granted and having the walljumps nerfed would be to have half the community abusing it. UWE can't ignore it if it's so blatantly broken as you claim.
Also many people seem to need some math lessons again. With a FOV of 110° as Skulk, the bite cones are practically more like cubes, seen from the player. (Close to the picture Arkanti posted.) Thats because you need to remind the perspective. In fact it is NOT more difficult to hit a marine that is 0.1m away than one that is 0.4m away. <u>Actually it is even more difficult to hit a marine that is farther away.</u> Because of the FOV of 110° that shifts the geometry. Try it out! If you try to bite a marine foot that is 10cm left from your crosshair on your monitor, it won't count as hit no matter how far you move away. Remember, the geometry shifts, because you look through something like a fisheye.
Also many people seem to need some math lessons again. With a FOV of 110° as Skulk, the bite cones are practically more like cubes, seen from the player. (Close to the picture Arkanti posted.) Thats because you need to remind the perspective. In fact it is NOT more difficult to hit a marine that is 0.1m away than one that is 0.4m away. <u>Actually it is even more difficult to hit a marine that is farther away.</u> Because of the FOV of 110° that shifts the geometry. Try it out! If you try to bite a marine foot that is 10cm left from your crosshair on your monitor, it won't count as hit no matter how far you move away. Remember, the geometry shifts, because you look through something like a fisheye.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sorry but I cant see how you can say its harder to hit objects further than closer to a skulk, maths lessons are needed yes but perhaps on your side of the fence as your arguments flawed.
The hit zone encompasses a greater area (simple geometry here nothing complicated) in a top down cross section. Take a 1 inch cross section stepping out from the skulks nose to the end of its hit zone...total up the amount of hit zone contained within each inch, there is more space in the cross sections further from the skulks nose than closer.
Coupled with the increased difficulty when the marines within 0.1 m (jumping over/around skulk etc) as its easier to get out of frame (again simple maths based on perspective (object has to travel further upwards the greater distance from the source to go out of the field of view).
Bloody programmable calculators and piss poor education systems are dumbing down the youngens I swear.
Also Fana, after seeing a bunch of people take up the hobby of jumping between 2 walls to get speed 24; I myself am for nerfing the skulk walljump... but only in regard to the top speeds that can be achieved with it.
Theres nothing wrong with getting a decent speed boost off a wall jump at the expense of air control. Right now you have too much air control and not enough speed increase initially. You should be able to get an immediate substantial speed boost from only a couple jumps or perhaps even just 1. But to balance it you would cap the skulks top speed to something acceptable and not going up into the 20's and etc. Perhaps just giving it a slight speed buff and losing speed when hitting the ground. So you would be encouraged to use skillful jumping between walls or else lose speed.
Also, you couldn't just keep building up speed over and over to eventually get up to an absurd speed. You should, however, be able to continue building up speed for a while until the speed becomes unacceptable and very exploitable.
Also many people seem to need some math lessons again. With a FOV of 110° as Skulk, the bite cones are practically more like cubes, seen from the player. (Close to the picture Arkanti posted.) Thats because you need to remind the perspective. In fact it is NOT more difficult to hit a marine that is 0.1m away than one that is 0.4m away. <u>Actually it is even more difficult to hit a marine that is farther away.</u> Because of the FOV of 110° that shifts the geometry. Try it out! If you try to bite a marine foot that is 10cm left from your crosshair on your monitor, it won't count as hit no matter how far you move away. Remember, the geometry shifts, because you look through something like a fisheye.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's not harder at all for me. The fisheye effect doesn't bother my judgement of distance at all.
I won't bore you with my theory on it but I'll just say I got used to the 110 FOV and have used FOV's like that in many games over years because I prefer it. I actually believe it improves my accuracy. Low FOV's feel like tunnel vision and restricts your view of the game. I personally hate anything below 90 and prefer 110-120. But to each their own I guess.
You're right though that tracking a closer target requires greater mouse movements than one further away. And since we're dealing with a big mouth with big, nasty, pointy teeth, a box (what's this talk about inverted cones?) would make more sense. However, there seems to already be more than one cone, making it resemble a box (although I've never noticed the effect in game) so maybe this is a moot point.
<img src="http://i.imgur.com/cdjSf.png" border="0" class="linked-image" />
You would have a wide bite box for very close range (blue), and a pointy one that need more precise aim the further you are.
Right. So in effect it's like having a wide crosshair on your screen. For a given distance less than X, if a Marine is within that box, you register a hit.
Makes sense to me.
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZq_4y7sBLY&hd=1" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZq_4y7sBLY&hd=1</a>
IMO movement should be changed to how it was in HL1. The only met limitation should be player skill and map design, just like aim. Obviously you could go so fast as it is hard to control, and speed has less use in combat. Give skulk bhop and a better iteration of walljumping, give fades the smooth blink, marines consistent speed and no crazy movement slowdowns, etc. Let's see what they do about it in 217.
As for the bite cone, inverted cone idea is the best by far. skulks should have an advantage on marines point-blank, that's how it is. Currently it's better to learn the range and keep at the maximum because it's easier to track marines jumping around.
<!--quoteo(post=1964492:date=Aug 18 2012, 06:46 AM:name=NeoRussia)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NeoRussia @ Aug 18 2012, 06:46 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1964492"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Not to mention it is inconsistent, same with the rifle butt melee which can sometimes knock skulks onto ceilings or walls.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yea, another problem is the odd way models and animations seem to lag behind alot in NS2 (beyond ping and interp), making any kind of model/movement reactionary based mechanics actually really hard to perform in the proper intended way.
You're right though that tracking a closer target requires greater mouse movements than one further away. And since we're dealing with a big mouth with big, nasty, pointy teeth, a box (what's this talk about inverted cones?) would make more sense. However, there seems to already be more than one cone, making it resemble a box (although I've never noticed the effect in game) so maybe this is a moot point.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well thats a very broken way of looking at it...and in no way able to see how the hit zone increases if your using the 1st person view...you need a topographical view to be able to see how the hit zone increases in space at it gets further away making it easier to hit marines slightly further away than right up close.
Yuuki most of us are after just the red line...no additional blue hit zone..just flip the cone.
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=119867" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=119867</a>
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZq_4y7sBLY&hd=1" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZq_4y7sBLY&hd=1</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've railed a few times against various forms of -hopping, primarily on the basis of "it looks ridiculous." There are definitely positive aspects to having some sort of intuitive and fairly straightforwards (IE, you end up going faster in the direction you were trying to go) skill-based movement, and it does add to the game to have a good system in place. I think that video makes a pretty good arguement for the current skill-based movement system looking f***ing ridiculous, and being completely NONintuitive (bouncing back and forth between two walls lets you run at 90 miles an hour for a bit? really? why are new players supposed to even try that?).
I started by biting a surface at the maximum allowed distance to see what registers. I did this because I look back on NS1 videos and past experiences, and know there aren't these kind of inconsistencies.. maybe I'm misinterpreting things, but I know the NS2 skulk isn't as tight as NS1.
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zae93_zPYhk" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zae93_zPYhk</a>
I started by biting a surface at the maximum allowed distance to see what registers. I did this because I look back on NS1 videos and past experiences, and know there aren't these kind of inconsistencies.. maybe I'm misinterpreting things, but I know the NS2 skulk isn't as tight as NS1.
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zae93_zPYhk" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zae93_zPYhk</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah but you have remained a good 0.6-1 metre from the wall and based on the cone pattern it does reduce again at its greatest distance currently (as illustrated in some of the earlier posts).
A wall is not a great example as the hitbox is much larger...but its the hit zone once the skulk gets within ~0.2 m that we see the hit box issue start popping up.
Also your tip of aiming down is right up there with saying just use parasite as its not as inconsistent....if we are looking downwards marines will jump out of sight quicker and easier.
The bunnyhop/walljump debate is separate to the bite discussion, whilst they are linked they are separate measure (movement v attack).
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PWwPKB2ac2A&feature=player_detailpage#t=349s" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PWwPKB2ac2A...tailpage#t=349s</a>
Takes a little getting used to az0r, just try not to jump at people. Instead circle strafe around marines when you get in close and aim diagonal up. I never loose track of marines using this technique..
Also when running at someone, if they time the jump right you'll push them away from you.
A wall is not a great example as the hitbox is much larger...but its the hit zone once the skulk gets within ~0.2 m that we see the hit box issue start popping up.
Also your tip of aiming down is right up there with saying just use parasite as its not as inconsistent....if we are looking downwards marines will jump out of sight quicker and easier.
The bunnyhop/walljump debate is separate to the bite discussion, whilst they are linked they are separate measure (movement v attack).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
When you're looking at max effective range it makes no difference if it is a wall, marine, MAC, or extractor, and my suggestion of looking down is only a few degrees to get the desired effect. If we are missing bites at an expected attack angle while jumping around, aiming downwards a few degrees is quite possible.
The discussion has not been about maximum range but where the largest hit zone should be, is it at the skulks mouth (what we are asking for) or about 0.5m in front of the skulk (current system where by closer you get harder to hit as the hit zone is smaller).
The fact the the shape of the bite are a cone that is narrower when your close to the marine and wider slightly further away from marine. This means that we somehow are meant to try to get close but not too close.
It also means that getting the hits in on a marine after that first one is harder partly due to the fact your closer and the hit zone is smaller.
I started by biting a surface at the maximum allowed distance to see what registers. I did this because I look back on NS1 videos and past experiences, and know there aren't these kind of inconsistencies.. maybe I'm misinterpreting things, but I know the NS2 skulk isn't as tight as NS1.
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zae93_zPYhk" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zae93_zPYhk</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I would suggest repeating your test with an actual enemy, and with 'trace all' on. I suspect that, like friendly fire, the 'wall sparks' only appear if the center of the 9 melee vectors hits the wall, and so is not a good indicator of how the bite hitboxes actually work.