All knockbacks seem really random in NS2, from the rifle butt that randomly sends the skulk straight up (which can be exploited to keep a skulk stun locked btw), to the IP/PG knockback which can send an alien across the entire room.
SewlekThe programmer previously known as SchimmelJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16247Members, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, Subnautica Developer
<!--quoteo(post=1963984:date=Aug 16 2012, 12:26 PM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Aug 16 2012, 12:26 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1963984"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Alright, I stand corrected. There's something weird going on with it though; it really doesn't seem like the attack is causing the knockback. Is there a delay between the attack and the knockback?
There are also some issues with the range, sometimes it's very short, other times it's huge, and all my experience with it is from skulk vs. marine, so it can't be the damage dependant force you're talking about.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
it depends on your current velocity, when you move in the same direction as the knockback force, you will fly further since they add. when you jump in the direction of the skulk, well, he nailed you. ping also plays a role due to lag compensation, and it's quite difficult to decide who should be favored: the attacker, so he could delay the attack to avoid the knockback, or the target, to time the jump right. currently it's more in the middle. anyway, i reduced the force and the jump slowdown will also be considered in next patch. it will then play less of a role as a result, and i hope the timings will fit better (for both sides) after the optimization work is done. i clearly don't want it to be a game breaker, just a minor detail for a bit more depth, which you can utilize or ignore
One thing I'll say about the bite cone is that it doesn't make sense. The whole point of having the skulk's teeth on the screen is to show where the damage is issued from, isn't it? Then if my target is at the edge of the screen, the bite won't register. It also doesn't make sense that the further I am from the target the more angular tolerance there is. Even a reversed cone would make more sense, wider angle as you get closer to the skulk.
I want to make the point that I can use the current system well enough. I noticed the change and understood what was going on, but only because I've played around with hitmarkers enough to know bullets shoot out of a marine's eyeballs etc. My point here is that it's not intuitive or accessible. The moment a newbie asks me "why don't the bites work?" I have to answer with something as clunky as "ignore where the teeth are on your screen, makes sure the target is in the centre when you bite, not off to the sides".
I'm also concerned that changing it to work as expected would be a big advantage to the aliens. :/
<!--quoteo(post=1964096:date=Aug 16 2012, 03:48 PM:name=Khyron)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Khyron @ Aug 16 2012, 03:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1964096"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm also concerned that changing it to work as expected would be a big advantage to the aliens. :/<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's a huge advantage to the aliens. You can hit bites off of wall jump and leap a lot more easily. Also marines jumping around and moving unpredictably won't matter as much. So, there are obvious pros and cons to a smaller bite cone. If you take a look at the balance changes from this build from the last you will find there are only a few key tweaks. One is that you can only use one upgrade per hive type (Doesn't really matter too much), and the other is that the skulks bitecone is significantly smaller. Honestly, the fact that the bitecone has been reduced has already caused a massive balance change. I know it has because the marines have been winning a lot more and the builds have not changed much. I immediately noticed how much less effective the skulk was this build, and I knew it was going to help with the balance. The problem is that I think the balance tweak was a bit over-shot for the game and its current performance. A lot of people are going to have a damned hard time landing a bite, and it's not only because of the smaller bite cone. I am very surprised that other people haven't noticed how dramatic this small tweak is to game balance. Making the aliens default class less effective is a pretty big deal. I can do fine with the skulk in its current, but nowhere near as well as I could last build.
I personally am OK with where it is now if not due to the fps and mouselag issues that are still present on my system. Which is why I am proposing a slightly increased bitecone until performance is raised again. It's being demanded that I have pinpoint accuracy to a jumping / moving target that is shooting me on top of my performance issues. I know I am not alone.
@ADHd I agree, this unannounced change has probably had more influence on game balance than the last 10 announced changes put together. But the balance is now pretty equal, so just making a change that favours aliens won't do.
The advantage given by chaning the bitecone to a bite-cresent-moon or something could be offset in other ways. F. eg, clearly such a change would put more emphasis on the "closing the distance" part of skulk/marine interplay. So if you reduce skulk top speed while making skulk kills more of a certainty once they reach the marine it could balance out. UWE are a creative lot, I'm sure they could find a way to balance it if they wanted to.
<!--quoteo(post=1963819:date=Aug 16 2012, 12:51 AM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Aug 16 2012, 12:51 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1963819"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't know how it looks for you, but i definitely don't have 1/3 of my screen taken up with teeth? Is it really 1/3 of your screen? Playing @ 1920 x 1080:<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Its more of an issue when you bite, since the heat of combat is when you need fov the most.
honestly, balance issues aside, the bite cone should be changed because it often FEELS like you should have gotten a bite reg, only for the narrow bite cone to miss the hitbox.
<!--quoteo(post=1964221:date=Aug 16 2012, 07:49 PM:name=Khyron)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Khyron @ Aug 16 2012, 07:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1964221"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->@ADHd I agree, this unannounced change has probably had more influence on game balance than the last 10 announced changes put together. But the balance is now pretty equal, so just making a change that favours aliens won't do.
The advantage given by chaning the bitecone to a bite-cresent-moon or something could be offset in other ways. F. eg, clearly such a change would put more emphasis on the "closing the distance" part of skulk/marine interplay. So if you reduce skulk top speed while making skulk kills more of a certainty once they reach the marine it could balance out. UWE are a creative lot, I'm sure they could find a way to balance it if they wanted to.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's not even balance that I am entirely concerned with. I know UWE will find a way to balance it out eventually, but on the bright side at least we are seeing marines winning more often now.
<!--quoteo(post=1964221:date=Aug 17 2012, 11:49 AM:name=Khyron)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Khyron @ Aug 17 2012, 11:49 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1964221"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->@ADHd I agree, this unannounced change has probably had more influence on game balance than the last 10 announced changes put together. But the balance is now pretty equal, so just making a change that favours aliens won't do.
The advantage given by chaning the bitecone to a bite-cresent-moon or something could be offset in other ways. F. eg, clearly such a change would put more emphasis on the "closing the distance" part of skulk/marine interplay. So if you reduce skulk top speed while making skulk kills more of a certainty once they reach the marine it could balance out. UWE are a creative lot, I'm sure they could find a way to balance it if they wanted to.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> A crescent or flipped cone so wider at jaw, narrower at farthest point from skulk (so less chance the further away the marine is) are both good options.
As a melee class the skulk tries to get as up close and personal as you can, the current bite cone wants your to stay off by around 0.5m from your target. This is counter intuitive and will frustrate new players as they wont understand that whilst your a melee class apparently your long sighted and dont want to get too close as your poor eyesight renders your biting less effective.
Once the bite cone/crescent is correctly orientated then we can seriously look at the max distance but half the issue currently is more often then not you end up too close to the marine and half your bites do stuff all damage. Really hard to balance something that requires a new player to realise something no one would expect, but that competitive players will know. Helps make for a massive skill gap between new and experienced players, will turn off a lot of new players who will be frustrated that they got close enough to count the hairs on the marines ball sack but the 5 bites landed did not kill the marine (early game).
I'm glad more than a few people have noticed how bad this unintuitive mechanic is to the gameplay for new players... and even veteran players find it annoying as well. Theres a lot better ways to balance the game than ruining the fun of a class.
I loved wall jumping around and getting into good positions to kill players. Now my wall jumping and positioning just often gets me killed. Only way to fight now is to either wait or draw all the ammunition out of a marine before closing the gap. This is not intuitive to new players nor is it fun to play hide and seek with a marine on literally every engagement. Only way you wont get toasted by a marine is if he has more than 1 target to shoot at.. and there isn't more than 1 marine present in the room.
I don't honestly see any logical reason for nerfing the walljumping except for that the game couldn't handle it due to its performance. My theory is that they screwed over wall jump to force people to need the shift hive to have any movement ability at all. That is horrendous. Even in NS1 you could at least bunnyhop and gain speed. A skulk still needs to close the gap and that is when it is vulnerable. Just nerf air control and give back its speed boost for wall jumps. Make it more accessible to people as well. I spent a half hour in the RR one day trying to show an already veteran player how to time and execute wall jumps correctly. We all know how important this is for getting kills against good aimers, but even regular players are having trouble with it. The skulk is useless now until you beef it up with upgrades that aren't even really needed or viable in the big picture.
Ever since shift was added the aliens movement has been completely ruined so that we can have celerity and etc instead of needing to have skill. At least that is how I feel. The skulk was the most fun class to play before shift was implemented. I played alien all the time. I loved it and had so much fun. And now that hitreg and performance is better I see no reason not to give back the fun in the skulk. It feels like a giant slow paper weight that can't hit crap. It sucks to play as skulk now and I personally hate it. It used to be my favorite class.
So many people trying to hold the hand of new players... they will figure it out just like everyone else did. If you bite someone, and he's not near your xhair you miss.. SIMPLE
IF ANYTHING, I find it stupid that the bite used to work on the edge of the screen. So many people wanting to play skulk with easy mode... Guess what, Its meant to be hard! Thats what makes NS such a great and competitive game.
Now they need to decrease the size of the fade swipe to be something to the current skulk bite and it will be great.
<!--quoteo(post=1964234:date=Aug 16 2012, 09:30 PM:name=mf-)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mf- @ Aug 16 2012, 09:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1964234"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So many people trying to hold the hand of new players... they will figure it out just like everyone else did. If you bite someone, and he's not near your xhair you miss.. SIMPLE<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
how is it handholding new players? you should be rewarded for getting close to the marine. if the bite cone doesn't match the graphic of your teeth, then you might as well remove the teeth.
<!--quoteo(post=1964234:date=Aug 16 2012, 08:30 PM:name=mf-)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mf- @ Aug 16 2012, 08:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1964234"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So many people trying to hold the hand of new players... they will figure it out just like everyone else did. If you bite someone, and he's not near your xhair you miss.. SIMPLE
IF ANYTHING, I find it stupid that the bite used to work on the edge of the screen. So many people wanting to play skulk with easy mode... Guess what, Its meant to be hard! Thats what makes NS such a great and competitive game.
Now they need to decrease the size of the fade swipe to be something to the current skulk bite and it will be great.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So you're telling me I should make an FPS game with a crosshair and people aim at the crosshair to try to get kills... but behind the scenes of the game development I have tweaked it so you actually need to aim 1 inch to the left of your crosshair to get a hit. But hey people are eventually gonna figure that out... so they are just retarded for wanting a game that makes sense and is intuitive to <b><i>WHAT THEY SEE</i></b>
<!--quoteo(post=1964237:date=Aug 17 2012, 11:40 AM:name=.ADHd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (.ADHd @ Aug 17 2012, 11:40 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1964237"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So you're telling me I should make an FPS game with a crosshair and people aim at the crosshair to try to get kills... but behind the scenes of the game development I have tweaked it so you actually need to aim 1 inch to the left of your crosshair to get a hit. But hey people are eventually gonna figure that out... so they are just retarded for wanting a game that makes sense and is intuitive to <b><i>WHAT THEY SEE</i></b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'll be interested to hear how you aim the grenade launcher. People are not retarded, they understand that they need to adjust based on the weapon / whatever they are using.
There is a big difference between the edge of your screen and 1 inch from the xhair as well. Sounds like you want... WELL if he's on my screen and I push mouse 1 he should die right?
@wheee
You are rewarded, you now have the chance to kill the marine
<!--quoteo(post=1964243:date=Aug 17 2012, 12:56 PM:name=mf-)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mf- @ Aug 17 2012, 12:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1964243"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'll be interested to hear how you aim the grenade launcher. People are not retarded, they understand that they need to adjust based on the weapon / whatever they are using.
There is a big difference between the edge of your screen and 1 inch from the xhair as well. Sounds like you want... WELL if he's on my screen and I push mouse 1 he should die right?
@wheee
You are rewarded, you now have the chance to kill the marine<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The GL is a ranged weapon that fires a projectile, the graphic and behavior of the GL match (the grenades shoot out and drop), skulk bite and teeth dont make sense..how can your hit zone be bigger 0.4 m from your mouth than it is 0.1 m from your mouth? The whole reason for the teeth is a visual indicator of your hit zones as skulk as to your weapons behavior....which is contrary to the actual in game behavior. So either fix the bite hit zone shape or remove the teeth and stop blocking up the skulks screen.
Well mf- dont know when you last played aliens but you have to do more than just see the marine on the screen, you actually need to close the distance, not get shot and start trying to get upwards of 3 bites in to kill the marines. This is now being increased because I miss 1 shot due to the fact I got too close to the marine...its hard enough to get close enough as a skulk to engage a marine, you have to hope to get him in transit. Once he is holed up he is a lot harder to take and you have almost 0 chance 1v1 against an established (and half competent) marine.
The whole point about the actual bullet projectiles and the xhair on screen seems to have gone over your head. If you have a visual indicator of where your bullets will go...would you not be surprised if they went somewhere else that was not where your x-hair was? This was an example of how the same issue would play out if it impacted the marines instead of aliens.
I've always thought of the skulks mouth as the equivalent of the marines gun, rather than the crosshair.
Though I guess that means there probably should be something to better signify the area in which they must keep their target.
Edit:
Also it becoming overly sensitive when close to people is likely due going to be because the cone begins at a point or smaller area? So getting too close gives you less wiggle room?
Anyway, here's what I think it seems like the skulks "hit area" should roughly be.
I think the root of the problem is that the skulk's view originates from the centre of it's body (all three dimensions). Since the bitecone originates from the camera's viewpoint, it would extend out past the teeth and end shortly after that, which actually creates a pretty good hitbox (just the fat end of the cone, with a bit of depth). The problem is that in order to make the depth feel right to the skulk's first person view, the clipping has to be relaxed. (At least, I think that's <b>why</b> the clipping is relaxed.) Then when you get "adjacent" to an object, what actually happens is the front part of the skulk's model ends up disappearing in to the target. When you bite, a ray traces out from the camea's viewpoint and doesn't get very far down the cone when it hits the target, and that's obviously a much smaller area. So when the skulk is most effective is when the 3d models appear to line up correctly to the third person perspective.
<!--quoteo(post=1964260:date=Aug 17 2012, 01:19 PM:name=Arkanti)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Arkanti @ Aug 17 2012, 01:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1964260"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I've always thought of the skulks mouth as the equivalent of the marines gun, rather than the crosshair.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes, and we get the same problems because of that. If you were to imagine a line from the barrel of the gun to the point in the distance under the crosshair, that line is not the line used for bullets. The line used is from the center of the screen, to the point in the distance under the crosshair. However, unlike the skulk, the marine's view point is actually based on his eyes/head, not the barrel of the gun. In other words, you shoot bullets out of your eyeballs.
Also it becoming overly sensitive when close to people is likely due going to be because the cone begins at a point or smaller area? So getting too close gives you less wiggle room?
<img src="http://i.imgur.com/NhMnV.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes..the closer the marine is the closer to being within the lines of the box you drew in the picture, a marine slightly further out has a higher chance of being bitten than the marine with a skulk at his feet. The cone faces the wrong way...pointy end should be pointed away from skulk towards the marine....it the exact opposite creating this funky, illogical hit reg/aiming issue.
A crescent or a flipped cone will give everything the same (no greater reach etc)...will mean though that when a skulk is up close he is more likely to bite than when he is .5 or even 1m away.
I'm all for the reverse bite cone. Having to get in closer seems a lot more logical to me... besides I am getting tired of getting bitten from 15 feet in the air by skulks... though that is probably m ore due to lag compensation.
If you get close you barely need to aim anymore? - Basically if there are marineparts on screen you will bite it? Sounds quite lame.
Its not that hard to get close to a marine...especially with leap etc. So you basically want to remove a big part of what sets good and bad skulks apart.
If you get close you barely need to aim anymore? - Basically if there are marineparts on screen you will bite it? Sounds quite lame.
Its not that hard to get close to a marine...especially with leap etc. So you basically want to remove a big part of what sets good and bad skulks apart.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hmmm, I do kind of see what you mean Koruyo. I think what were mostly arguing for is that it's a more intuitive approach that people could understand a lot easier. It could obviously be tweaked so that its still not TOO wide when you get in close but you still are rewarded for doing so. Know what I mean?
Right now you can bite a marine from an absurdly far away distance. It should require more aim the further away they are... but the current system is quite the opposite. The current system makes it so you need less aiming to hit a marine from further away. You think that sounds any more fair than what you just posted? Think about how that effects the easyness of the marines aiming. He doesn't have to worry about point blank skulks if their most effective range is a comfortable shooting distance for him. It just favors marines is all it does... your argument that it makes aliens easymode is true in ways but right now I feel it's imba towards marines.
With how slow the skulks are right now, and all their nerfs I don't see how rewarding players for closing the gap would be a bad design decision. You can still balance it so you still need to aim when up close, but right now its just... messed up and it feels bad.
Even when you get the jump on somebody and surprise attack them they can jump making you miss 2 point blank bites when your teeth are closing down on him on your screen. Do you have any idea how much this will frustrate people who feel they had full right to that kill?
Right now there is a little sweet spot where you purposely try not to get too close to a marine... so you have a greater chance of regging a bite. The only way I am ever able to hit a marine is when I do that... because I have learned through knowing and experience. That isn't intuitive. Not to say this game has to be... but the basic classes should feel more or less intuitive.
I know the devs have their reasoning for changing this, and I wish I knew what it was. So far all I can tell is that people hate aiming at stuff at their feet... so why not nerf the skulks up close ability to counter-act that? Well it makes aiming easier for marines if they don't have to aim down towards their feet if they know a skulk can just bite them from 5 feet away. It makes it so the skulks are always distancing themselves from the marines so the marines have a better chance at aiming. I call this easymode. If you think leap makes it too easy to close the gap then tweak leap... not the skulks default attack.
In my opinion, you should only be able to hit a marine with a bite that is litterally touching him. I don't understand what the the deal is with letting people bite marines from 5 feet away. There shouldn't be a cone at all. It would be similarly hard without a long bite cone to hit marines because it forces the player to have better timing. Timing is also an important factor in skill. In theory, the skulk bite would take better timing than aiming. But aiming is more of a marine thing if you ask me, but if you did it this way it would still be difficult.
Both have up and downsides, lowering the range but reversing the cone might seem more logical, it might also mean that dodge jumping, rifebuts, and this new kick back mechanic gets even more frustrating, also attacking in groups might get harder.
I dont know, would need to test everything. (wonder how it was in ns1)
Btw. i dont want to argue that skulk bite is fine the way it is, since i do agree something is weird at times.
<!--quoteo(post=1964292:date=Aug 17 2012, 01:18 AM:name=Koruyo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Koruyo @ Aug 17 2012, 01:18 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1964292"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Both have up and downsides, lowering the range but reversing the cone might seem more logical, it might also mean that dodge jumping, rifebuts, and this new kick back mechanic gets even more useful, also attacking in groups might get more frustrating.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Okay then why not remove those "features" if they are also causing gameplay problems? I don't think the kickback mechanic is too big of a deal really. It needs to be tweaked down for sure though. Rifle butt is stupid, and should be removed from the game. Melee in left 4 dead kind of ruined competitive games making the survivors extremely effective against the special infected. You can translate that same concept into NS2 if you wanted. Rifle butt is just cheap... I wouldn't mind keeping it in as purely a last ditch thing that did damage only and no stunning. The stunning aspect is what makes it too powerful.
Dodge jumping is extremely stupid in my eyes too. You should be able to jump once but not over and over like an idiot. I find it to be cheap as well. So fix those things before ruining the skulk bite.
If you get close you barely need to aim anymore? - Basically if there are marineparts on screen you will bite it? Sounds quite lame.
Its not that hard to get close to a marine...especially with leap etc. So you basically want to remove a big part of what sets good and bad skulks apart.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You have shown the widest point as being too wide, what is needed is slightly more subtle. What this should do is get it back to what it was before the changed the width and height around making it comical. Also making so the closer you are as a skulk the greater change of actually biting a marine increases not decreases.
Something more like the below, which is that the bite cone is 1 box bigger at mouth and 1 smaller at the extremities of the bite range.
I took the widest part, placed at abote the jaw line and slightly trimmed the reach to compensate for the changes and try to maintain overall current range.
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited August 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1964232:date=Aug 17 2012, 02:27 AM:name=.ADHd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (.ADHd @ Aug 17 2012, 02:27 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1964232"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I loved wall jumping around and getting into good positions to kill players. Now my wall jumping and positioning just often gets me killed. Only way to fight now is to either wait or draw all the ammunition out of a marine before closing the gap. This is not intuitive to new players nor is it fun to play hide and seek with a marine on literally every engagement. Only way you wont get toasted by a marine is if he has more than 1 target to shoot at.. and there isn't more than 1 marine present in the room.
I don't honestly see any logical reason for nerfing the walljumping except for that the game couldn't handle it due to its performance. My theory is that they screwed over wall jump to force people to need the shift hive to have any movement ability at all. That is horrendous. Even in NS1 you could at least bunnyhop and gain speed. A skulk still needs to close the gap and that is when it is vulnerable. Just nerf air control and give back its speed boost for wall jumps. Make it more accessible to people as well. I spent a half hour in the RR one day trying to show an already veteran player how to time and execute wall jumps correctly. We all know how important this is for getting kills against good aimers, but even regular players are having trouble with it. The skulk is useless now until you beef it up with upgrades that aren't even really needed or viable in the big picture.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Walljumping is still extremely powerful. Getting to 12 speed is fairly easy in many parts the maps and if you have a little patience you can get it up to the speed cap of 20 without it really requiring any skill at all.
Walljumping needs to be nerfed further by release, so you should start getting used to it.
I will say that walljumping is extremely unintuitive though, leading to a lot of the "why did you nerf walljumping???" whine one the forums over the last few months. Most players don't understand how it works, and even fewer know how to make it work in practice, leading to a lot of frustrated players. Ironic, considering it was supposed to be a replacement for the "unintuitive" bunny hop.
Edit: Bite cone is fine, skulks actually have to aim now -- a shocking concept, I know.
<!--quoteo(post=1964341:date=Aug 17 2012, 09:50 PM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Aug 17 2012, 09:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1964341"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Edit: Bite cone is fine, skulks actually have to aim now -- a shocking concept, I know.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> What is being proposed does not change whether a skulk needs to aim or not but whether there are greater tolerances 0-0.1 m from skulk mouth of 0.4-.05 m from skulks mouth. Currently your rewarded with easier aiming by not getting up close to a marine and penalized if you get close. The overall need to aim still is there...in fact its probably more important as longer ranged attacks will be less accurate.
Comments
There are also some issues with the range, sometimes it's very short, other times it's huge, and all my experience with it is from skulk vs. marine, so it can't be the damage dependant force you're talking about.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
it depends on your current velocity, when you move in the same direction as the knockback force, you will fly further since they add. when you jump in the direction of the skulk, well, he nailed you. ping also plays a role due to lag compensation, and it's quite difficult to decide who should be favored: the attacker, so he could delay the attack to avoid the knockback, or the target, to time the jump right. currently it's more in the middle. anyway, i reduced the force and the jump slowdown will also be considered in next patch. it will then play less of a role as a result, and i hope the timings will fit better (for both sides) after the optimization work is done. i clearly don't want it to be a game breaker, just a minor detail for a bit more depth, which you can utilize or ignore
I want to make the point that I can use the current system well enough. I noticed the change and understood what was going on, but only because I've played around with hitmarkers enough to know bullets shoot out of a marine's eyeballs etc. My point here is that it's not intuitive or accessible. The moment a newbie asks me "why don't the bites work?" I have to answer with something as clunky as "ignore where the teeth are on your screen, makes sure the target is in the centre when you bite, not off to the sides".
I'm also concerned that changing it to work as expected would be a big advantage to the aliens. :/
It's a huge advantage to the aliens. You can hit bites off of wall jump and leap a lot more easily. Also marines jumping around and moving unpredictably won't matter as much. So, there are obvious pros and cons to a smaller bite cone. If you take a look at the balance changes from this build from the last you will find there are only a few key tweaks. One is that you can only use one upgrade per hive type (Doesn't really matter too much), and the other is that the skulks bitecone is significantly smaller. Honestly, the fact that the bitecone has been reduced has already caused a massive balance change. I know it has because the marines have been winning a lot more and the builds have not changed much. I immediately noticed how much less effective the skulk was this build, and I knew it was going to help with the balance. The problem is that I think the balance tweak was a bit over-shot for the game and its current performance. A lot of people are going to have a damned hard time landing a bite, and it's not only because of the smaller bite cone. I am very surprised that other people haven't noticed how dramatic this small tweak is to game balance. Making the aliens default class less effective is a pretty big deal. I can do fine with the skulk in its current, but nowhere near as well as I could last build.
I personally am OK with where it is now if not due to the fps and mouselag issues that are still present on my system. Which is why I am proposing a slightly increased bitecone until performance is raised again. It's being demanded that I have pinpoint accuracy to a jumping / moving target that is shooting me on top of my performance issues. I know I am not alone.
I agree, this unannounced change has probably had more influence on game balance than the last 10 announced changes put together. But the balance is now pretty equal, so just making a change that favours aliens won't do.
The advantage given by chaning the bitecone to a bite-cresent-moon or something could be offset in other ways. F. eg, clearly such a change would put more emphasis on the "closing the distance" part of skulk/marine interplay. So if you reduce skulk top speed while making skulk kills more of a certainty once they reach the marine it could balance out. UWE are a creative lot, I'm sure they could find a way to balance it if they wanted to.
Is it really 1/3 of your screen?
Playing @ 1920 x 1080:<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Its more of an issue when you bite, since the heat of combat is when you need fov the most.
I agree, this unannounced change has probably had more influence on game balance than the last 10 announced changes put together. But the balance is now pretty equal, so just making a change that favours aliens won't do.
The advantage given by chaning the bitecone to a bite-cresent-moon or something could be offset in other ways. F. eg, clearly such a change would put more emphasis on the "closing the distance" part of skulk/marine interplay. So if you reduce skulk top speed while making skulk kills more of a certainty once they reach the marine it could balance out. UWE are a creative lot, I'm sure they could find a way to balance it if they wanted to.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's not even balance that I am entirely concerned with. I know UWE will find a way to balance it out eventually, but on the bright side at least we are seeing marines winning more often now.
I agree, this unannounced change has probably had more influence on game balance than the last 10 announced changes put together. But the balance is now pretty equal, so just making a change that favours aliens won't do.
The advantage given by chaning the bitecone to a bite-cresent-moon or something could be offset in other ways. F. eg, clearly such a change would put more emphasis on the "closing the distance" part of skulk/marine interplay. So if you reduce skulk top speed while making skulk kills more of a certainty once they reach the marine it could balance out. UWE are a creative lot, I'm sure they could find a way to balance it if they wanted to.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A crescent or flipped cone so wider at jaw, narrower at farthest point from skulk (so less chance the further away the marine is) are both good options.
As a melee class the skulk tries to get as up close and personal as you can, the current bite cone wants your to stay off by around 0.5m from your target.
This is counter intuitive and will frustrate new players as they wont understand that whilst your a melee class apparently your long sighted and dont want to get too close as your poor eyesight renders your biting less effective.
Once the bite cone/crescent is correctly orientated then we can seriously look at the max distance but half the issue currently is more often then not you end up too close to the marine and half your bites do stuff all damage.
Really hard to balance something that requires a new player to realise something no one would expect, but that competitive players will know.
Helps make for a massive skill gap between new and experienced players, will turn off a lot of new players who will be frustrated that they got close enough to count the hairs on the marines ball sack but the 5 bites landed did not kill the marine (early game).
I'm glad more than a few people have noticed how bad this unintuitive mechanic is to the gameplay for new players... and even veteran players find it annoying as well. Theres a lot better ways to balance the game than ruining the fun of a class.
I loved wall jumping around and getting into good positions to kill players. Now my wall jumping and positioning just often gets me killed. Only way to fight now is to either wait or draw all the ammunition out of a marine before closing the gap. This is not intuitive to new players nor is it fun to play hide and seek with a marine on literally every engagement. Only way you wont get toasted by a marine is if he has more than 1 target to shoot at.. and there isn't more than 1 marine present in the room.
I don't honestly see any logical reason for nerfing the walljumping except for that the game couldn't handle it due to its performance. My theory is that they screwed over wall jump to force people to need the shift hive to have any movement ability at all. That is horrendous. Even in NS1 you could at least bunnyhop and gain speed. A skulk still needs to close the gap and that is when it is vulnerable. Just nerf air control and give back its speed boost for wall jumps. Make it more accessible to people as well. I spent a half hour in the RR one day trying to show an already veteran player how to time and execute wall jumps correctly. We all know how important this is for getting kills against good aimers, but even regular players are having trouble with it. The skulk is useless now until you beef it up with upgrades that aren't even really needed or viable in the big picture.
Ever since shift was added the aliens movement has been completely ruined so that we can have celerity and etc instead of needing to have skill. At least that is how I feel. The skulk was the most fun class to play before shift was implemented. I played alien all the time. I loved it and had so much fun. And now that hitreg and performance is better I see no reason not to give back the fun in the skulk. It feels like a giant slow paper weight that can't hit crap. It sucks to play as skulk now and I personally hate it. It used to be my favorite class.
IF ANYTHING, I find it stupid that the bite used to work on the edge of the screen. So many people wanting to play skulk with easy mode... Guess what, Its meant to be hard! Thats what makes NS such a great and competitive game.
Now they need to decrease the size of the fade swipe to be something to the current skulk bite and it will be great.
how is it handholding new players? you should be rewarded for getting close to the marine. if the bite cone doesn't match the graphic of your teeth, then you might as well remove the teeth.
IF ANYTHING, I find it stupid that the bite used to work on the edge of the screen. So many people wanting to play skulk with easy mode... Guess what, Its meant to be hard! Thats what makes NS such a great and competitive game.
Now they need to decrease the size of the fade swipe to be something to the current skulk bite and it will be great.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So you're telling me I should make an FPS game with a crosshair and people aim at the crosshair to try to get kills... but behind the scenes of the game development I have tweaked it so you actually need to aim 1 inch to the left of your crosshair to get a hit. But hey people are eventually gonna figure that out... so they are just retarded for wanting a game that makes sense and is intuitive to <b><i>WHAT THEY SEE</i></b>
I'll be interested to hear how you aim the grenade launcher. People are not retarded, they understand that they need to adjust based on the weapon / whatever they are using.
There is a big difference between the edge of your screen and 1 inch from the xhair as well. Sounds like you want... WELL if he's on my screen and I push mouse 1 he should die right?
@wheee
You are rewarded, you now have the chance to kill the marine
There is a big difference between the edge of your screen and 1 inch from the xhair as well. Sounds like you want... WELL if he's on my screen and I push mouse 1 he should die right?
@wheee
You are rewarded, you now have the chance to kill the marine<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The GL is a ranged weapon that fires a projectile, the graphic and behavior of the GL match (the grenades shoot out and drop), skulk bite and teeth dont make sense..how can your hit zone be bigger 0.4 m from your mouth than it is 0.1 m from your mouth?
The whole reason for the teeth is a visual indicator of your hit zones as skulk as to your weapons behavior....which is contrary to the actual in game behavior.
So either fix the bite hit zone shape or remove the teeth and stop blocking up the skulks screen.
Well mf- dont know when you last played aliens but you have to do more than just see the marine on the screen, you actually need to close the distance, not get shot and start trying to get upwards of 3 bites in to kill the marines.
This is now being increased because I miss 1 shot due to the fact I got too close to the marine...its hard enough to get close enough as a skulk to engage a marine, you have to hope to get him in transit.
Once he is holed up he is a lot harder to take and you have almost 0 chance 1v1 against an established (and half competent) marine.
The whole point about the actual bullet projectiles and the xhair on screen seems to have gone over your head.
If you have a visual indicator of where your bullets will go...would you not be surprised if they went somewhere else that was not where your x-hair was?
This was an example of how the same issue would play out if it impacted the marines instead of aliens.
Though I guess that means there probably should be something to better signify the area in which they must keep their target.
Edit:
Also it becoming overly sensitive when close to people is likely due going to be because the cone begins at a point or smaller area? So getting too close gives you less wiggle room?
Anyway, here's what I think it seems like the skulks "hit area" should roughly be.
<img src="http://i.imgur.com/NhMnV.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Yes, and we get the same problems because of that. If you were to imagine a line from the barrel of the gun to the point in the distance under the crosshair, that line is not the line used for bullets. The line used is from the center of the screen, to the point in the distance under the crosshair. However, unlike the skulk, the marine's view point is actually based on his eyes/head, not the barrel of the gun. In other words, you shoot bullets out of your eyeballs.
Also it becoming overly sensitive when close to people is likely due going to be because the cone begins at a point or smaller area? So getting too close gives you less wiggle room?
<img src="http://i.imgur.com/NhMnV.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes..the closer the marine is the closer to being within the lines of the box you drew in the picture, a marine slightly further out has a higher chance of being bitten than the marine with a skulk at his feet.
The cone faces the wrong way...pointy end should be pointed away from skulk towards the marine....it the exact opposite creating this funky, illogical hit reg/aiming issue.
A crescent or a flipped cone will give everything the same (no greater reach etc)...will mean though that when a skulk is up close he is more likely to bite than when he is .5 or even 1m away.
<img src="http://i.imgur.com/ZrZQC.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
<img src="http://i.imgur.com/6IjTc.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
If you get close you barely need to aim anymore? - Basically if there are marineparts on screen you will bite it?
Sounds quite lame.
Its not that hard to get close to a marine...especially with leap etc.
So you basically want to remove a big part of what sets good and bad skulks apart.
<img src="http://i.imgur.com/ZrZQC.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
<img src="http://i.imgur.com/6IjTc.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
If you get close you barely need to aim anymore? - Basically if there are marineparts on screen you will bite it?
Sounds quite lame.
Its not that hard to get close to a marine...especially with leap etc.
So you basically want to remove a big part of what sets good and bad skulks apart.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hmmm, I do kind of see what you mean Koruyo. I think what were mostly arguing for is that it's a more intuitive approach that people could understand a lot easier. It could obviously be tweaked so that its still not TOO wide when you get in close but you still are rewarded for doing so. Know what I mean?
Right now you can bite a marine from an absurdly far away distance. It should require more aim the further away they are... but the current system is quite the opposite. The current system makes it so you need less aiming to hit a marine from further away. You think that sounds any more fair than what you just posted? Think about how that effects the easyness of the marines aiming. He doesn't have to worry about point blank skulks if their most effective range is a comfortable shooting distance for him. It just favors marines is all it does... your argument that it makes aliens easymode is true in ways but right now I feel it's imba towards marines.
With how slow the skulks are right now, and all their nerfs I don't see how rewarding players for closing the gap would be a bad design decision. You can still balance it so you still need to aim when up close, but right now its just... messed up and it feels bad.
Even when you get the jump on somebody and surprise attack them they can jump making you miss 2 point blank bites when your teeth are closing down on him on your screen. Do you have any idea how much this will frustrate people who feel they had full right to that kill?
Right now there is a little sweet spot where you purposely try not to get too close to a marine... so you have a greater chance of regging a bite. The only way I am ever able to hit a marine is when I do that... because I have learned through knowing and experience. That isn't intuitive. Not to say this game has to be... but the basic classes should feel more or less intuitive.
I know the devs have their reasoning for changing this, and I wish I knew what it was. So far all I can tell is that people hate aiming at stuff at their feet... so why not nerf the skulks up close ability to counter-act that? Well it makes aiming easier for marines if they don't have to aim down towards their feet if they know a skulk can just bite them from 5 feet away. It makes it so the skulks are always distancing themselves from the marines so the marines have a better chance at aiming. I call this easymode. If you think leap makes it too easy to close the gap then tweak leap... not the skulks default attack.
In my opinion, you should only be able to hit a marine with a bite that is litterally touching him. I don't understand what the the deal is with letting people bite marines from 5 feet away. There shouldn't be a cone at all. It would be similarly hard without a long bite cone to hit marines because it forces the player to have better timing. Timing is also an important factor in skill. In theory, the skulk bite would take better timing than aiming. But aiming is more of a marine thing if you ask me, but if you did it this way it would still be difficult.
The current bite does not feel intuitive at all. Who would think that getting closer to a marine is not what you should do as a skulk...
I dont know, would need to test everything. (wonder how it was in ns1)
Btw. i dont want to argue that skulk bite is fine the way it is, since i do agree something is weird at times.
Okay then why not remove those "features" if they are also causing gameplay problems? I don't think the kickback mechanic is too big of a deal really. It needs to be tweaked down for sure though. Rifle butt is stupid, and should be removed from the game. Melee in left 4 dead kind of ruined competitive games making the survivors extremely effective against the special infected. You can translate that same concept into NS2 if you wanted. Rifle butt is just cheap... I wouldn't mind keeping it in as purely a last ditch thing that did damage only and no stunning. The stunning aspect is what makes it too powerful.
Dodge jumping is extremely stupid in my eyes too. You should be able to jump once but not over and over like an idiot. I find it to be cheap as well. So fix those things before ruining the skulk bite.
<img src="http://i.imgur.com/6IjTc.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
If you get close you barely need to aim anymore? - Basically if there are marineparts on screen you will bite it?
Sounds quite lame.
Its not that hard to get close to a marine...especially with leap etc.
So you basically want to remove a big part of what sets good and bad skulks apart.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You have shown the widest point as being too wide, what is needed is slightly more subtle.
What this should do is get it back to what it was before the changed the width and height around making it comical. Also making so the closer you are as a skulk the greater change of actually biting a marine increases not decreases.
Something more like the below, which is that the bite cone is 1 box bigger at mouth and 1 smaller at the extremities of the bite range.
<img src="http://ih0.redbubble.net/image.12417281.8602/flat,550x550,075,f.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
I took the widest part, placed at abote the jaw line and slightly trimmed the reach to compensate for the changes and try to maintain overall current range.
I don't honestly see any logical reason for nerfing the walljumping except for that the game couldn't handle it due to its performance. My theory is that they screwed over wall jump to force people to need the shift hive to have any movement ability at all. That is horrendous. Even in NS1 you could at least bunnyhop and gain speed. A skulk still needs to close the gap and that is when it is vulnerable. Just nerf air control and give back its speed boost for wall jumps. Make it more accessible to people as well. I spent a half hour in the RR one day trying to show an already veteran player how to time and execute wall jumps correctly. We all know how important this is for getting kills against good aimers, but even regular players are having trouble with it. The skulk is useless now until you beef it up with upgrades that aren't even really needed or viable in the big picture.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Walljumping is still extremely powerful. Getting to 12 speed is fairly easy in many parts the maps and if you have a little patience you can get it up to the speed cap of 20 without it really requiring any skill at all.
Walljumping needs to be nerfed further by release, so you should start getting used to it.
I will say that walljumping is extremely unintuitive though, leading to a lot of the "why did you nerf walljumping???" whine one the forums over the last few months. Most players don't understand how it works, and even fewer know how to make it work in practice, leading to a lot of frustrated players. Ironic, considering it was supposed to be a replacement for the "unintuitive" bunny hop.
Edit: Bite cone is fine, skulks actually have to aim now -- a shocking concept, I know.
What is being proposed does not change whether a skulk needs to aim or not but whether there are greater tolerances 0-0.1 m from skulk mouth of 0.4-.05 m from skulks mouth.
Currently your rewarded with easier aiming by not getting up close to a marine and penalized if you get close.
The overall need to aim still is there...in fact its probably more important as longer ranged attacks will be less accurate.