Sentries are now useless
Cee Colon Slash
Join Date: 2012-05-25 Member: 152581Members
Join Date: 2012-05-25 Member: 152581Members
<div class="IPBDescription">please fix!</div>My first google for a definition of a sentry is:
<i>A guard, especially a soldier posted at a given spot to prevent the passage of unauthorized persons.</i>
Seems to me it's not living up to its requirements.
As a skulk, I can run at normal speed and be completely safe from a sentry. I understand that the logic behind the change was this idea that "it's not fun to play against structures", but now they are basically useless and even more confusing to use: I have to research a robot factory, then place a sentry battery, and then put sentries around the battery. There's no visual indicator for where I can place the sentries (I understand this is very new and wasn't finessed) and most importantly, you now have to build a bunch of sentries so that at least 1-2 are pointed <i>at the battery</i> to protect it. It's silly easy to leap onto the battery and take it out, rendering <i>all</i> the sentries useless.
And yay! The turrets are great against structures. But why on earth would you use them instead of, oh I don't know, a cannon that shoots through walls and can be moved around?
IMHO, the fix is simple. Remove this battery business - confusing and extraneous. Put a hard cap on turrets: X per robot factory (I'd suggest three). Improve the targetting and damage to previous build levels so they will actually <i>defend</i> territory.
Either that or ditch sentry turrets and replace with electrified structures, and no one wants to go there.
<i>A guard, especially a soldier posted at a given spot to prevent the passage of unauthorized persons.</i>
Seems to me it's not living up to its requirements.
As a skulk, I can run at normal speed and be completely safe from a sentry. I understand that the logic behind the change was this idea that "it's not fun to play against structures", but now they are basically useless and even more confusing to use: I have to research a robot factory, then place a sentry battery, and then put sentries around the battery. There's no visual indicator for where I can place the sentries (I understand this is very new and wasn't finessed) and most importantly, you now have to build a bunch of sentries so that at least 1-2 are pointed <i>at the battery</i> to protect it. It's silly easy to leap onto the battery and take it out, rendering <i>all</i> the sentries useless.
And yay! The turrets are great against structures. But why on earth would you use them instead of, oh I don't know, a cannon that shoots through walls and can be moved around?
IMHO, the fix is simple. Remove this battery business - confusing and extraneous. Put a hard cap on turrets: X per robot factory (I'd suggest three). Improve the targetting and damage to previous build levels so they will actually <i>defend</i> territory.
Either that or ditch sentry turrets and replace with electrified structures, and no one wants to go there.
This discussion has been closed.
Comments
I do think you have a point about why making them useful for structures seems odd as we have ARCs.
I've always felt that turrets were meant more to be used like OC's were in NS1. If you planted one in a strategic position outside or near a hive, it would give you a warning, as marines wanting that position would attack it; thus, allowing your team to locate and eliminate the threat.
Placing a sentry in a spot that stops skulks from hitting the power or a phase gate in a strategic location on the map would force the skulks to deal with the sentries first, giving marines time to phase in and defend. Essentially would help stop a surprise rush on an undefended phase gate.
I haven't yet played with the new sentries yet, so I'm completely unable to form an opinion yet; but turrets being used to attack in any way just does not seem viable once aliens have bilebomb. So if we remove the defensive capabilities, turrets would be niche for single hive assaults. Which might make sense as at that point ARCs are probably too expensive; but at the same time, didn't Charlie want everything to stay relavent even in the late game?
As for turrets defending a power node - it takes 10 hits from a skulk to destroy the sentry. About five seconds, I think. :)
I like the idea of a hard cap on turrets, whether it is X per robot factory or X per Command Center. Buff them a bit and they should be good to go.
As for turrets defending a power node - it takes 10 hits from a skulk to destroy the sentry. About five seconds, I think. :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
yea, if the turret is placed in a bad position, and id rather the skulk eat the turret than the power node 10/10 times
they have a range of 10 meters, which barely covers the width/breadth of a corridor! they are absolutely useless in rooms.
they can be placed on infestation, is that intended? i guess so, because of the laughable range they couldnt even shoot a cyst if placed outside the infestation....
a skulk can solo a sentry headon, no need to get to its back.
so the only use would be to place them next to a havester or hive, which also makes no sense because its much cheaper to just drop some ammo and let your marines shoot the harvester/hive.
maybe if only 1 or 2 marines sneek into the hiveroom, they could build 1batterie and 2 sentrys in ~20seconds(1 marine building) within 10 meters of the hive! thats right in the middle of all the eggs which they must not attack before the sentrys are built.
sentrys are now usless for: territory defense, securing forward bases, holding chockepoints, also the use against harvesters is highly unlikely(min 15 Tres investment to get a 10Tres structure down), many other things
sentries are usefull for: sneeky hive attack, maybe against whips, although the range is nearly the same and the sentry would clearly loose a 1on1 against a whip.
as the OP stated the new system goes against the very definition of the word sentry, so they would need a new name and if the new system has to stay, at least double the range of the ... ASMG?(anti structure maschine gun) so marines can place them a little further away.
as long as we are on the topic, now the only territoryal defense for marines are mines which cost Pres i know the commander can drop them too, but the thought that marines have only mines to defend their territorry is funny and terrifying at once.
somehow the roles of the aliens and marines got switched, marines allways had a disadvantage in speed and 1on1 but better territoryal defense, aliens have been fast reacting to threats and strong on the offense.
nowadays a marine has to fight his way through a jungle of hydras and whips with crag/shade/shift support(where the new sentrys might come in handy). and aliens only have to look out for mines and avoid them or even better take 3 or more mines out with 1 free skulk.
the phasegate is allready a must have technology as we have seen in the last ensl cup it sometimes even comes bevore shotguns. which i take as indication that the marines dont have time to react and defend on foot.
as the last sentence on that wall of text i want to quote the design document from memory:
the sentrys job is it to alert marines and delay/repel aliens till marines can react. (which is exactly what is missing atm)
My suggestion: Revert the sentry change in 209. They haven't been that useful before compared to the amount of pres you'd need to invest, but now they are absolutly useless. As for fine-tuning, range should be high and they should fire at targets right away, like TF2 sentry :P I like a per robotic factory limit (6-8)
Then you can block the corridor off as a route for aliens. So essentially they act like a brick wall but can be flanked easily.
Alien movement is the biggest threat to marines in this game, and this basically forces aliens to take longer paths.
Also marines would have to place them like chess pieces adding tactical and strategic value, and because you can only have 1 per cc you can't turtle with them at last CC.
If they were implemented like this, not only would they match the ALIENS movies (Charlies dream, apart from Candy Mountain) but they would probably see use in clan matches.
I see no issue with this? Then you just have a secondary defence for the base. Mines are perfect tbh, and I didn't see any sentrys in public servers the previous build so it doesn't damage anything.
Charlie will probably be like 'God damn you Runteh' if he sees this video again, but I think this kind of thing would work well.
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Best remove Hydras and Whips then.
As for turrets defending a power node - it takes 10 hits from a skulk to destroy the sentry. About five seconds, I think. :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you are undetected in a hive it could be useful. Place the battery, place a few sentries but don't build them completely until all are at 90%. Then complete all of them. The sentries would destroy the hive while you can focus the players, but the question is if it isn't more viable to attack the hive directly since setting up sentries costs time.
Or just feeding ammo / health packs to the marine that got in there.
Or just feeding ammo / health packs to the marine that got in there.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No structures are placeable on infestation with the new battery and sentry being the exception.
The reason that ninja PG's were a thing is because there will usually be a small patch of non-infestation in the corner somewhere where you can plop down a PG.
Of course, this strategy would likely have died when dynamic Infestation was added anyway, so it's really not a major loss.
Maybe the 1-per-CC SuperSentry would fit the bill. Maybe it wouldn't work out. Either way, they need some way to muster a basic defense against weak attacks without forcing a marine to just sit on his ass in every base. The sentry should be that way.
I got the best results with at least 4 Sentries but 5 was much better. You can fit 5 with one Sentry battery.
The cost total was:
10 Res - Sentry Battery
25 Res - 5 Sentries though 4 was ok
15 Res - Robotics Factory
<b>So you are looking at 45 to 50 res for a fairly quick hive kill.</b> I will time it and record it later.
I want to make it clear that I do not support the idea of having offensive Sentry guns besides the ARCs.
But for fun and testing purposes I can see this being a funny way to win.
<b>
Pros:</b>
+You can set this up without players. Your Robotics factory builds a MAC so you could start setting this up without any human support.
+It is quicker and potentially cheaper than ARC's assuming you want 2 or more ARCs.
ARC upgrade = 20, ARC Unit = 20
+You can build Sentries and Batteries on infestation and they build quickly.
+The Sentries can shoot down the hive while the team concentrates on killing aliens. I think this is the best Pro.
<b>
Cons:</b>
- It's kind of retarded.... I don't know another way to put this. It just feels dumb.
- The range on the Sentries is too low for this to be practical.
- I can't see these being used for anything but a ninja hive killing tactic.
Let's test it out on some servers and figure it out guys.
Remember this is a closed Beta and is the perfect time to test out crazy stuff.
Trying to mock up a super sentry.
Oh, and sentrys just seem so bugged. I attack them, then they attack me. I sit there, they don't fire. I move backwards, they stop firing. Bizarre.
I don't even know where to start. I give up.
Just give Sentries a little Tank like the Arcs have, so they can drive around I guess.
I don't care.
Make them cheap expendable , and to stop spam just give a limit per zone or room, or make a space requirement with other buildings.
my thoughts ~~~~
I guess to add, a lazy alien will die from a turret, a smart tactical alien will not.
I got the best results with at least 4 Sentries but 5 was much better. You can fit 5 with one Sentry battery.
The cost total was:
10 Res - Sentry Battery
25 Res - 5 Sentries though 4 was ok
15 Res - Robotics Factory
<b>So you are looking at 45 to 50 res for a fairly quick hive kill.</b> I will time it and record it later.
I want to make it clear that I do not support the idea of having offensive Sentry guns besides the ARCs.
But for fun and testing purposes I can see this being a funny way to win.
<b>
Pros:</b>
+You can set this up without players. Your Robotics factory builds a MAC so you could start setting this up without any human support.
+It is quicker and potentially cheaper than ARC's assuming you want 2 or more ARCs.
ARC upgrade = 20, ARC Unit = 20
+You can build Sentries and Batteries on infestation and they build quickly.
+The Sentries can shoot down the hive while the team concentrates on killing aliens. I think this is the best Pro.
<b>
Cons:</b>
- It's kind of retarded.... I don't know another way to put this. It just feels dumb.
- The range on the Sentries is too low for this to be practical.
- I can't see these being used for anything but a ninja hive killing tactic.
Let's test it out on some servers and figure it out guys.
Remember this is a closed Beta and is the perfect time to test out crazy stuff.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
+1 to you sir.
Just played a game where they tried to defend base with these new sentries. (I was alien) On first rush we took out all 4 of them and chewed their base to crap. They did however manage to set up and ninja our hive and with 1 marine hiding remaining, we all died by the death ticks.
Sentries took our hive down FAST. like maybe 10-15 seconds. >.<
A cap based on robot factories might be a good idea.
Also, in case the change was made due to balance problems (sentry spam?), there are plenty of ways to balance sentry guns. E.g. have sentry guns do even less damage against carapace upgraded aliens or have some alien abilities which can actually disable the sentries.
Making sentries only useful against structures is probably the most obscure balance I can imagine.
If you need to kill a hive, you got shotguns, flamethrowers, grenade launchers, ARCs... I see no reason to add sentry guns to this line.
Well...Sentries (and Mines) do light-type damage. Which means that armor reduces the amount of damage taken significantly
So Aliens with Carapace are already almost invulnerable to Sentry fire as it is.
So Aliens with Carapace are already almost invulnerable to Sentry fire as it is.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, although my point was: If the change was made due to balance problems, making hard counters is an easy way to fix it.
Hard counter > sentry spam.
I must admit that I actually haven't got a clue why this sentry change was made (hence making my argument invalid).
New evolve : Biorec : Slow moving alien with huge regan and armor options, prime purpose to take fire from turrets/marines/nades ect.... away from the skulks and smaller life forms.
New evolve : Biorec : Slow moving alien with huge regan and armor options, prime purpose to take fire from turrets/marines/nades ect.... away from the skulks and smaller life forms.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That sounds like Onos...
Nah, there is no need to invent new stuff to balance sentries...
Just make logical use of the stuff which is already implemented, for instance making Lerk spores block sentry vision, or having some of the gorge ranged attacks disable sentries for a short time.
Almost anything would be better than the current change IMO.