Sentries are now useless

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Comments

  • XariusXarius Join Date: 2003-12-21 Member: 24630Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    This is outrageous to be honest. I have yet to meet a single player who is in favour of the direction they are taking sentries in. It's like UWE is living on a different planet.
  • MagnetoMagneto Join Date: 2010-12-22 Member: 75856Members
    Terrible idea, another vote for normal sentries, in fact we should get more specialised base defence if anything, please stop trying to force game play down a path no one wants, i would take the community's advice seriously on this one, commanders need something to spend res on at times and aliens have always done fine with turrets, too bad if skulks die more often, that's nothing new, a lot of rts people enjoy setting up base structures and defence, taking this away from us is just wrong.
  • DaphistoDaphisto Hive Janitor Join Date: 2002-11-16 Member: 8917Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    If UWE is taking a hard stance on the decision to keep them as anti-building weapons rather than anti-lifeform, it'd be cool if they explained the reasoning behind this.

    I don't think I saw a single community member support this decision. It seemed to come out of left field.

    A lot of interesting suggestions have been posted on the forums on how to address the sentry issue. Can you maybe try one or two of those out first before taking a hard stance on something that, what seems like the entire community, is against?

    Side note: I have yet to see any commanders put down sentries in build 219.
  • zeepzeep Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 3367Members
    edited September 2012
    <!--quoteo(post=1979338:date=Sep 18 2012, 02:59 AM:name=Strayan (NS2HD))--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Strayan (NS2HD) @ Sep 18 2012, 02:59 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1979338"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The problem is that 'if com wants to waste res on it' becomes the default option. Sentry guns that can kill players won't just kill players, but absolutely destroy pub play.

    The decision to make sentry guns anti-structure weapons is undoubtedly controversial, but sentry guns that can kill players are not coming back.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Aliens have defenses that kill marines, but marines have no defenses against alien players.

    Your post is very worrisome, it attests to your guys preference to make the game easy run&gun instead of a game with tactical use of teamplay.
    To have sentries do absolutely nothing harmful against aliens is so counterlogical to what ns2 strifes to be, it's insane.

    I mean why put them in anyway? Just take them out and replace them by cheap scary looking paper mache models. Maybe marines can scare a few aliens away.

    "Absolutely destroy pub play", really absolutely? You're sure? How?
    Stop balancing things sometimes. You're doing what too many fps shooters are doing. Balancing to boredom.

    Instead:
    Look at TF2 sentries, they're powerful and fearsome and they require a medic/heavy combo to combat. You can give aliens a similar temporary function to kill sentries, like Onos maybe? Oh they already have that. With sentries defending proper marines have a way to get on their feet and control a room.
  • DaphistoDaphisto Hive Janitor Join Date: 2002-11-16 Member: 8917Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    <!--quoteo(post=1979338:date=Sep 17 2012, 10:59 PM:name=Strayan (NS2HD))--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Strayan (NS2HD) @ Sep 17 2012, 10:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1979338"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The decision to make sentry guns anti-structure weapons is undoubtedly controversial, but sentry guns that can kill players are not coming back.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    <img src="http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll67/Emo-tional_Child/inconceivable.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
  • piratedavepiratedave Join Date: 2012-03-10 Member: 148561Members
    edited September 2012
    guess a part of the community will just have to fracture away from vanilla NS2 then. I for one think sentries are an integral part in NS1 gameplay and that without them being a defensive static defense leaves a giant hole that leads to poorer shallower gameplay.

    Currently we see marines holed up in 2 bases in the late mid game. They are normally under constant siege at their 2nd base, all the while a single skulk takes down all their RT's. Marines then are forced to use beacon when aliens start swithcing between attacking base number 1 and base number 2. Eventually a situation occurs where marines are beacon'd and either have no res to beacon again or lose their obs at the 2nd base, and then aliens manage to get multiple fades on the phase gate and slaughter the exiting marines ... with marines down to 1 base its gg

    When players start to notice that 80% of all casted games end up like this ... they stop watching casts of vanilla NS2, and start watching casts from mods that offer more exciting strategic gameplay ....its quite simple really.
  • KurrineKurrine Join Date: 2010-07-03 Member: 72235Members
    <!--coloro:#aadd00--><span style="color:#aadd00"><!--/coloro-->Welp... That quote sealed it, I'm waiting for the NS1 mod, this is ridiculous.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
  • FroztyFrozty SWEDEN Join Date: 2012-01-22 Member: 141596Members
    4 turrets in crossfire should be able to cover the area against 2-3 skulks.
    I hope they do something with it cuz now its useless.. even for last stand.
  • XariusXarius Join Date: 2003-12-21 Member: 24630Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    Hopefully a bunch of servers will just reimplement the old sentries server-side, it'd be an easy fix for the time being.
  • rad4Christrad4Christ Join Date: 2002-01-31 Member: 139Members
    edited September 2012
    I've been pretty quiet and supportive of NS2 dev decisions when I didn't agree, knowing they are trying to balance a game with features I may not even yet know about, but this comment from Strayan about sentries has indeed bothered me.

    We have plenty of anti-structure instruments at our disposal, but it's EXTREMELY frustrating in Pub play that there isn't a single defensive ranged item besides mines (which can be intelligently tripped with bile or a fade blinking through), and marine support. Aliens can lock down a location, making it a battle to get through fortifications, and happily eat the map for whatever they want.

    Marines MUST babysit ANY location, and in pub play, there have been a few games I feel should have been victories, but when we pushed out in force, the aliens picked the farthest point from our push and attacked it. There's NO defense besides manpower and a few deterrent mines.

    Turret farms existed in NS1 and NEVER impeded gameplay. If commanders blew res on turret farms they often were ejected promptly. Heck, in siege maps where farming is encouraged, a few fades and/or a gorge on a TF rendered even the larger ones useless.

    I REALLY like the idea of marines placing sentries. Not removable/recyclable. Permanent with NO batteries/ammo/whatever-to-complicate-or-confuse. And make them 30pres.

    Do you REALLY think people are going to spam turrets for 30 pres and lose the ability to get shotties, JPs, EXOs? Heck, it hurts enough when I have to spend all my pres on mines because the last two packs have been blown up, and if I don't, it's a guaranteed loss of an area once we move out.

    the strategy on pubs for marines win what I've seen is to push a hive and hope you get it down before they take out one of your bases, and then phase as quickly as possible to salvage what's left there.

    EDIT: I agree that if this stands, I'll be another player looking for servers with sentry mods, but honestly wish that the devs would really reconsider. Just try it as a pres with decent tracking. Even in playtest only. Marines have lost turrets, electrification, and motion tracking for defensive maneuvers. I'm glad MT is gone, as it was pretty OP, but the other two need some sort of comparative. Aliens have plenty, marines have one...
  • alsteralster Join Date: 2003-08-06 Member: 19124Members
    Another of my great ideas.

    In the early game sentries should not stop skulks or gorges. How?
    Skulks parasite and gorges spit hitting the sentry causes the sentry to slightly miss aim.
    A marine should be near by to protect it. Sentries still do a lot of damage against higher life forms so they are still viable late game. No turtling still won't work cause of bile bomb. Sentries useful again?
  • MistenTHMistenTH Join Date: 2003-01-01 Member: 11706Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
    Just bring back the NS1 sentry. Done.

    Simple, easy to understand, doesn't drive the commander nuts placing it, simply works.

    A circle strafing skulk will kill it with no damage taken.

    Anything bigger will easily be able to tank the damage from the sentry to kill it.

    Just make it that once there are 3 or more sentries, their rate of fire starts decreasing the more sentries are present. Lore is they drain too much power from the room's power node to be efficient.
  • [R8]DJBourgeoisie[R8]DJBourgeoisie Join Date: 2007-09-05 Member: 62176Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1979529:date=Sep 18 2012, 12:48 PM:name=Kurrine)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kurrine @ Sep 18 2012, 12:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1979529"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--coloro:#aadd00--><span style="color:#aadd00"><!--/coloro-->Welp... That quote sealed it, I'm waiting for the NS1 mod, this is ridiculous.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Haha I had the same exact thought. I'm sorry UWE but you guys make some pretty terrible decisions and quite often completely fail to understand player expectations and what it is that they like and want. So if turrets are now the counter to structures, what is the arc supposed to do?
  • zeepzeep Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 3367Members
    Sad but i'm looking towards a mod now. UWE takes a ridiculous stand here not allowing the marine side a strong functional defense.
    Ofcourse aliens players are going to moan about it, until they ADJUST strategies.

    It's like all marines are allowed to do is play offensive.
  • 7¢ Nickel7¢ Nickel Join Date: 2009-06-20 Member: 67883Members
    I have not seen such a universally negative response since the taser. You guys really need to walk back from this decision.
  • [R8]DJBourgeoisie[R8]DJBourgeoisie Join Date: 2007-09-05 Member: 62176Members
    Players hate static defenses in games when they lack the tools to overcome them but love them when they have the tools (if you don't believe me try playing some TF2). Fades in NS1 tanked up the damage from turrets while they along with skulks took them out while gorges heal sprayed them. You have given the players the tools to deal with static defenses but keep taking away reasons for using them, I wish you would stop underestimating the fact players like to be challenged. When players figure out that challenge and overcome it, they feel extremely smart because they think they have outsmarted the designer (when in fact that was what good game designers wanted to happen all along).
  • NammNamm Join Date: 2011-12-08 Member: 137116Members
    edited September 2012
    <!--quoteo(post=1979338:date=Sep 18 2012, 03:59 AM:name=Strayan (NS2HD))--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Strayan (NS2HD) @ Sep 18 2012, 03:59 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1979338"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The problem is that 'if com wants to waste res on it' becomes the default option. Sentry guns that can kill players won't just kill players, but absolutely destroy pub play.

    The decision to make sentry guns anti-structure weapons is undoubtedly controversial, but sentry guns that can kill players are not coming back.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Then why are they even making a small amount of damage against players? It's not intuitive. Now the Sentries "ramp up their damage over time when they aim at a static target." If the turrets fired plasma/laser/nanite beams that got brighter and louder for every second they could deliver damage to a target it would make sense and be clear for even the newest of players, but now? When people see a turret they remember the scene from Aliens and/or thousands of other similar references...

    I would rather see Mines removed entirely and replaced with some kind of anti-player Sentry (and no, Sentries shouldn't be spammed. If spam is possible, fix the spam). Sentries are simply too cool to be downgraded like this.
  • project_demonproject_demon Join Date: 2003-07-12 Member: 18103Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1979338:date=Sep 17 2012, 09:59 PM:name=Strayan (NS2HD))--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Strayan (NS2HD) @ Sep 17 2012, 09:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1979338"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The problem is that 'if com wants to waste res on it' becomes the default option. Sentry guns that can kill players won't just kill players, but absolutely destroy pub play.

    The decision to make sentry guns anti-structure weapons is undoubtedly controversial, <b>but sentry guns that can kill players are not coming back.</b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    I'm saddened to hear that... Never in my times of playing NS1 did I stop and say "well these sentries are ruining the game, they should just take them off (or make them useless)", and believe me i've died quite a lot to sentries. The fact of the matter is if you're the weakest alien life form, and you go in against 3-4 sentries, then yes you should die... just like a lone basic marine dies against 3-4 hydras.

    The bottom line is, everything in the game should have a clear and specific role. What is the role of the sentry?

    In NS1, the role of the sentry was to:
    <ol type='1'><li>Fend off small and weak attacks (a few skulks).</li><li>Try to delay stronger attacks until reinforcements get there.</li></ol>
    Why? because marines are slower than aliens and they can't be everywhere at once. Yes they have phase gates, but it will take some time to phase between 3-4 locations just to stop this one or two skulks (and if you're doing that then you're not on the offensive)... With no static defenses NS2 will quickly turn into a cat and mouse game.
  • Squeal_Like_A_PigSqueal_Like_A_Pig Janitor Join Date: 2002-01-25 Member: 66Members, Super Administrators, NS1 Playtester, NS2 Developer, Reinforced - Supporter, WC 2013 - Silver, Subnautica Developer
    Strayan is right to an extent, that we have seen sentries time and time again ruin games. Many new commanders especially feel very weak and aren't used to relying on other marine players, so they will build up a lot of turrets to defend an area, and it can lead to some frustrating player versus structure interactions (more annoying for aliens then say hydras are for marines, because they don't have the range marines do). It feels like a lot of people in this thread are pretending that those problems with sentries in the past didn't exist, but there is plenty of community feedback in numerous threads to the contrary.

    We have tried many different iterations on sentries, that either make them too over powered or nerf them down so that they are never used. With time running out, these latest changes were an attempt to get sentries to be more offensively used, instead of defensive, as it would be nice to see them used in other ways then just turtling up a marine base. Rather then just removing the turrets from the game outright for 1.0 release, we are trying to get them into a serviceable place, and it is true that we would rather they were underpowered against alien players then overpowered for release.

    That said, we agree they still aren't working that well, and that being completely useless against aliens is not very intuitive. A lot of the numbers, such as the targeting acquisition were kind of thrown in last minute before the patch and hadn't had a chance to be adequately tested. We will probably be revising that a bit, and increase their ability to track and target players. Ideally we can get sentries to a point where they can't completely lock down an area on their own, but they can contribute a lot in a firefight if other marine players are there. We are exploring other options and are open to suggestions, but we are running out of time to keep changing and testing them before 1.0, so likely they are not going to be perfect for release. After release we will have more time to do another larger pass on them, and really give their role a lot of thought, but for now we are focused on just making sure they don't break the game and ruin the enjoyment for all the new players who will be getting their first taste of NS2 next month.

    --Cory
  • Red DestinyRed Destiny Join Date: 2012-08-11 Member: 155428Members
    This has been mentioned multiple times already, but it mirrors exactly how I feel.

    Short of getting an exo, and letting it sit in base to defend, there is absolutely nothing else in the late-game that can defend a marine base while the marine team form up and push a hive.

    Meanwhile, marines have to fight through a forest of whips, healing crags, shifts that spawn instant reinforcements, shades that hide EVERYTHING from view, and any possible Gorges that can clog, hydra-up, AND AoE-healspray everything in range.

    Marines have... OFFENSIVE sentries? In what world has a static structure been a good idea for offense? If the 'offensive' sentries were ARC-like, and fired through walls, THAT might save the idea. Otherwise... :(

    Mines don't cut it late-game, where bile bombs/Lerk spikes/regenerating skulks that trip one, regenerate, then come back, will pin marines down. And if a small marine force tries to defend a base, a lone Fade can really mess things up.

    Marines lack pushing potential if they can't defense the other side of the map. <b>Bring defensive sentries back, they should be like hydras: 10 pres for a marine to plop one down; maximum of one per marine. Cost/effectiveness can be adjusted, but OFFENSIVE sentries...? D:</b>
  • ZootZoot Join Date: 2011-01-21 Member: 78469Members
    Just please undo the sentry change its quite obvious that very few people like/agree with it. It seems like a bad solution to a problem that didn't exist. :P
  • VenatosVenatos Join Date: 2012-03-31 Member: 149762Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold
    i realy can not follow the thought prozess behind the sentry-change... it makes no sense to me at all.
    i agree that sentrys needed a slight tweak like limited number per room or per robofactory but this overcompensation(again) is just rediculous. that sayed, the last change(sentrys only usefull with a marine nearby...) was also a pretty lame idea...

    charlie please for the love of god stop doing these insane reinventions!

    these are creative ideas for a simple structure. a sentry is a automated turrent, there are enough values to be tweaked to get it balanced.
  • Onii-chanOnii-chan Join Date: 2002-11-05 Member: 7164Members
    edited September 2012
    <!--quoteo(post=1979687:date=Sep 18 2012, 09:18 PM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ Sep 18 2012, 09:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1979687"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Strayan is right to an extent, that we have seen sentries time and time again ruin games. Many new commanders especially feel very weak and aren't used to relying on other marine players, so they will build up a lot of turrets to defend an area, and it can lead to some frustrating player versus structure interactions (more annoying for aliens then say hydras are for marines, because they don't have the range marines do). It feels like a lot of people in this thread are pretending that those problems with sentries in the past didn't exist, but there is plenty of community feedback in numerous threads to the contrary.

    We have tried many different iterations on sentries, that either make them too over powered or nerf them down so that they are never used. With time running out, these latest changes were an attempt to get sentries to be more offensively used, instead of defensive, as it would be nice to see them used in other ways then just turtling up a marine base. Rather then just removing the turrets from the game outright for 1.0 release, we are trying to get them into a serviceable place, and it is true that we would rather they were underpowered against alien players then overpowered for release.

    That said, we agree they still aren't working that well, and that being completely useless against aliens is not very intuitive. A lot of the numbers, such as the targeting acquisition were kind of thrown in last minute before the patch and hadn't had a chance to be adequately tested. We will probably be revising that a bit, and increase their ability to track and target players. Ideally we can get sentries to a point where they can't completely lock down an area on their own, but they can contribute a lot in a firefight if other marine players are there. We are exploring other options and are open to suggestions, but we are running out of time to keep changing and testing them before 1.0, so likely they are not going to be perfect for release. After release we will have more time to do another larger pass on them, and really give their role a lot of thought, but for now we are focused on just making sure they don't break the game and ruin the enjoyment for all the new players who will be getting their first taste of NS2 next month.

    --Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    The "Glass Sentries" as they were before the silly battery nonsense were almost ok gameplay wise, they just needed a few tweaks: Either remove the robotics requirement(or reduce their cost to 7 or something), boost their health 25%, fix any tracking/targeting issues and limit them to 3 per power node.

    They will still get demolished by bile, fades, and competent skulks can just avoid their firing arc, get behind them.
    Sentries will just buy enough time for marines to phase in before 3 fades camp the gate and basically get the tech point with no effort.
  • NammNamm Join Date: 2011-12-08 Member: 137116Members
    Thanks for that exhaustive reply, Cory! It it is what it is before 1.0 I guess.

    Here's an idea: Make Sentries require ammo. The comm have to resupply the Sentries. Otherwise they'll just spin and beep and not much more than that. Sure, dropping ammo at Sentries might take res from ammo and med packs otherwise dropped during offense, but the Marines at least have some static defenses to rely on during those offenses. Besides, the ammo requirement will effectively prevent Marines from turtling up with Sentries and prolonging games (not even trying to leave the base and do something meaningful). With only one or two res towers and Sentries constantly blazing away, it'll be impossible for the comm to supply them.
  • ForssForss Join Date: 2011-10-30 Member: 130180Members
    New idea:

    Turrets are bought by marines and can be deployed/undeployed. Turrets are personal and are fired manually by taking over the right mouse button attack when deployed. They fire at the point you're aiming so it will be easier to use the closer to the turret you're.
  • alsteralster Join Date: 2003-08-06 Member: 19124Members
    For Cory's defense more than half of the ns1 players switched to combat mod with 1 reason being players didn't have a com to make any defenses. It was more like COD or CS with mostly just PvP combat except for the occasional battle gorge.

    TF has sentries yet both teams have range weapons therefore my suggestion of using the skulks parasite and gorges spit to cause slight misses in the sentry firing.
  • rantologyrantology Join Date: 2012-02-05 Member: 143750Members, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold
    Robo Tech tree for marines is akin to Shade Hive for aliens... neither is particularly viable at the moment, and it won't be till post 1.0 in all likelihood. Just gotta deal with it.
  • VenatosVenatos Join Date: 2012-03-31 Member: 149762Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold
    <!--quoteo(post=1979687:date=Sep 18 2012, 08:18 PM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ Sep 18 2012, 08:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1979687"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Strayan is right to an extent, that we have seen sentries time and time again ruin games. Many new commanders especially feel very weak and aren't used to relying on other marine players, so they will build up a lot of turrets to defend an area, and it can lead to some frustrating player versus structure interactions (more annoying for aliens then say hydras are for marines, because they don't have the range marines do). It feels like a lot of people in this thread are pretending that those problems with sentries in the past didn't exist, but there is plenty of community feedback in numerous threads to the contrary.

    We have tried many different iterations on sentries, that either make them too over powered or nerf them down so that they are never used. With time running out, these latest changes were an attempt to get sentries to be more offensively used, instead of defensive, as it would be nice to see them used in other ways then just turtling up a marine base. Rather then just removing the turrets from the game outright for 1.0 release, we are trying to get them into a serviceable place, and it is true that we would rather they were underpowered against alien players then overpowered for release.

    That said, we agree they still aren't working that well, and that being completely useless against aliens is not very intuitive. A lot of the numbers, such as the targeting acquisition were kind of thrown in last minute before the patch and hadn't had a chance to be adequately tested. We will probably be revising that a bit, and increase their ability to track and target players. Ideally we can get sentries to a point where they can't completely lock down an area on their own, but they can contribute a lot in a firefight if other marine players are there. We are exploring other options and are open to suggestions, but we are running out of time to keep changing and testing them before 1.0, so likely they are not going to be perfect for release. After release we will have more time to do another larger pass on them, and really give their role a lot of thought, but for now we are focused on just making sure they don't break the game and ruin the enjoyment for all the new players who will be getting their first taste of NS2 next month.

    --Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    thnx for the reply cory, but to be honest i never have seen sentrys making alien play less fun other than marine turtleing and there was a simple solution that got suggested right from the beginning, i know that because i initialy disagreed with it. but as 1.0 is so close the simple and fast solution would have been to limit the number of sentries per powernode. as everything else was allready taken care of with lerk spores, stomp, bilebomb and vortex. there was only 1 alien lifeform that couldnt solo 2 sentrys and that was the skulk.(actualy thats not true because i circumvented sentrys as skulk often enough to bite them down from the back with simply leaping over them.)
    marines need some sort of territorial defence other than mines, thats a fact. if you try to put sentries into the offence(and i dont see how you could pull this off) the only defence left is electrifying the buildings and no one wants that.
  • WilsonWilson Join Date: 2010-07-26 Member: 72867Members
    Just remove them already. Keeping something in the game because of the lore or because it is cool is not the way to create fun gameplay.
  • OnosFactoryOnosFactory New Zealand Join Date: 2008-07-16 Member: 64637Members
    There is an issue with sentries as they were when Aliens had no bile bomb, especially after losing the second hive, as macs plus sentries locked down areas in a way no heal spray is going to help you.
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