Alien commanders need to drop more structures

ImbalanxdImbalanxd Join Date: 2011-06-15 Member: 104581Members
<div class="IPBDescription">more incentives are needed</div>When was the last time you dropped anything other than a Cyst, Hive, Harvester or upgrade chamber in the first 5-10 minutes of a game as alien commander? Why are alien commanders so loath to drop structures other than the most basic and necessary?

I think this unwillingness to spend resources on structures which are actually relevant in battle is a major reason why alien commanding seems so bland at the moment. When I say "relevant in battle" I don't mean being right there on the front lines tugging at marine pant legs. I'm talking about structures like armouries which, while not directly contributing to the fight, make a huge difference to which way the battle goes. In the first ten minutes of a game, pretty much all the alien commander does is drop hives and spread to harvesters. Meanwhile the marine commander is actively dropping structures for his marines, researching upgrades which allow him to directly reinforce his marines, ect.

I think there are three primary reasons why alien commanders rarely if ever drop "miscellaneous" structures like whips, crags, shifts and shades.
<ul><li>Exorbitant early game resource cost</li><li>Unknown reliability and longevity </li><li>Questionable practical utility</li></ul>

Firstly the costs. I personally think that 15 resources is not necessarily "too much" for any of the structures mentioned previously. I do think, however, that it is made to be an unappealing trade because of two external factors. Firstly, the cost of upgrades and hives. The importance of the quick second hive means that the starting resources are absolutely critical. You basically <i>have </i>to spend 40 resources as soon as the game starts, or ensure that you have the resources close at hand to use as soon as the opportunity presents itself. Combine this with the fact that regardless of which root you decide to take; general chamber upgrade or lifeform upgrade, you are going to need at least 25 resources available <b>immediately </b> in order to prevent your forces from becoming obsolete. Combine <b>that </b>with the fact that you <b>must </b>have 2 harvesters in order to be in a comfortable position to continue teching, and you place commanders in a very precarious position. 80 resources are already allocated and the game has barely even begun, so its no wonder commanders are unwilling to put a massive 15 resources into something that may or may not pay off in the long run.

This already strong argument against the use of miscellaneous structures is further compounded by the second point, a case of eggs and baskets. Outside of a controlled hive room (and even inside controlled hive rooms) the prospect of a whip or a crag surviving past the first minute or two is a shaky one. The ease with which these structures are destroyed makes a commander very nervous about putting a whole 15 of his hard earned resources into them. It isn't a case of losing half of your investment while half of it continues to contribute, if you lose that whip, which can happen in literal seconds, the entire investment is gone, instantly. Nothing remains of the resources you spent. Strategy is all about risk assessment, and the alien commanders have spoken; the risk involved when dealing with these miscellaneous structures is simply too high.

The third, and probably most disheartening challenge facing the use of non essential structures, is their contribution or utility in battle. I think this point is exemplified by the shade. If there is one non essential structure I have absolutely no issues with dropping in the early game, it is the shade. It's utility is unquestionable. Not only does it greatly aid the players on the ground, but it even provides a benefit for me as a commander, hiding my expansions. The fact that shades are rarely available in the early game is unfortunate, but not really relevant in this discussion. I just think that the shade is a good model for what a miscellaneous structure should do.

Now lets take a look at the other, less appealing non essential structures. Whips and Crags, I feel, suffer from a similar hindering mechanic which some people call "critical mass". Ask yourself this; when was the last time you dropped a single Whip or Crag? Personally, I almost never do it. Sure I will drop Crags for a healing outpost outside of the first 10 minutes, but its either 4 Crags or no Crags. A single Whip is little more than a single literal slap in the face to an unsuspecting marine, at which point he stands in a safe position and takes it down. In the case of both structures, one is simply not enough, its all or nothing. You either heal that fade up in a matter of seconds, or you don't bother trying at all, because some healing is not better than no healing when you are dealing with a life form that must enter combat on full HP. You either kill that wandering marine instantly in a barrage of slaps, or you don't bother defending the entrance at all, because one Whip isn't worth the resources you will inevitably lose.

The Shift is in a reasonable position at the moment, and mainly suffers due to external reasons. Firstly, from lack of information. Most people don't actually know what the Shift can do, and I'm sure that will change, though I think it would help to make it more intuitive or obvious. For example, as I wrote this post, I was about to state that the Shift suffered from not stacking with other Shifts. However, this isn't true, as more Shifts means faster Echos. I completely forgot about this as it is so obscure and rarely seen, which brings me to the second external reason; this entire post. With little to no miscellaneous structures being placed, what reliable use is Echo anyway? Hopefully this can change in time.

So that's the end of the discussion part of my post, now for my recommendations.
<ol type='1'><li>Reduce the cost of miscellaneous structures like Whips, Crags, Shifts and Shades to 10. Nerf them accordingly if needed, but honestly I don't think it necessary.</li><li>Address critical massing of Crags by making single Crags more powerful, and having them stack less quickly. For example, if a single Crag heals for X, then 3 Crags together should only heal for 2X.</li><li>I don't know if critical massing of Whips needs to be addressed (I think it was more of a price issue), but if it does need to be, then the solution will be more complicated.</li><li>Give miscellaneous structures a passive player bonus <b>and </b>a passive commander bonus. In the case of the shade the same bonus affects commander and player alike, but the other structures won't be as simple. Whips are fine, as they defend locations for the commander and provide distraction for players. Crags and Shifts on the other hand are tricky, I'll make a dedicated post in the suggestions forum for this though.</li><li> One active commander ability per maturation stage! Ink cloud and Illusion, Hatch and Echo, <b>where the hell did Umbra go on Crags</b>? At least replace it with something!</li></ol>
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Comments

  • RobustPenguinRobustPenguin Join Date: 2012-08-17 Member: 155719Members
    edited September 2012
    Completely agree. If I want to set up a decent forward base what do I need?

    Probably 1 or 2 whips, 15-30 res
    A shift with 10 (?) eggs: 25 res
    4 or 5 crags for decent healing, 60-75 res
    A shade often helps so 15 res

    compare this to marines who need:

    PG for 15 res
    armoury (optional) for 10 res
    Some mines for 5-10 res.

    Add into that if your whips dont mature before its found (and maturing them takes forever) then 1 gl comes along and trololol. Even once its matured they're so dodgy that 2 whips dont even shut down 1 GL spammer. And I think that the nades when thrown back only hurt the thrower which is dumb.

    Given that buildings take time to mature I dont think I should have to pay for the upgrades to them, atleast not as much as it is. Doubling the cost of the structure for often very little benifit, every time I've upgraded a whip to bombard it barely seems to do anything and thats now a 30 res building that I had to wait for ages to upgrade.

    As for crag umbra, it went to lerk which is fine, but it needs to have an ability
  • salorsalor Join Date: 2004-02-21 Member: 26771Members
    But Marines "generally" need more res then aliens, Aliens can comfortably sit on 3 rt for the whole game...this is not enough for Mariens.

    Marines also have got alot more things to "upgrade", i.e. their structures don't just "mature-over-time", comm needs to spend some res and upgrade these things....


    The two sides are ASYMETRICAL, you guys cant just compare them like that.....
  • ImbalanxdImbalanxd Join Date: 2011-06-15 Member: 104581Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1978453:date=Sep 16 2012, 02:51 PM:name=salor)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (salor @ Sep 16 2012, 02:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1978453"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->But Marines "generally" need more res then aliens, Aliens can comfortably sit on 3 rt for the whole game...this is not enough for Mariens.

    Marines also have got alot more things to "upgrade", i.e. their structures don't just "mature-over-time", comm needs to spend some res and upgrade these things....


    The two sides are ASYMETRICAL, you guys cant just compare them like that.....<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    My problem isn't that alien commanding isn't enough like marine commanding. My problem is that the alien commander does almost nothing throughout a game. In fact UWE has actually taken to introducing what amounts to busy work for the alien commander in the form of infestation spike and enzyme cloud.

    In an "RTS" in which you don't have direct control over your units, the most obvious way to introduce complexity is through the importance of structures, in my opinion.
  • salorsalor Join Date: 2004-02-21 Member: 26771Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1978454:date=Sep 16 2012, 07:56 AM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Sep 16 2012, 07:56 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1978454"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->...My problem is that the alien commander does almost nothing throughout a game...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    I think this is partially intentional by the game's design.


    The Marketing talks we keep hearing from Hugh is that the Marine Comm is suppose to be the High RPM style that we are used to on traditional RTS's, and the Alien Comm is more laid back (i.e. the cosmic gardener analogy).

    What i'm saying is that the alien comm is MEANT TO BE more laid back then the marine comm, by design. My guess is to keep the asymetry of the comm roles on both sides.
  • [AwE]Sentinel[AwE]Sentinel Join Date: 2012-06-05 Member: 152949Members
    Before the abilities had to be researched for 40 res each there were just enough spare res to drop for examlpe 2 whips inside a corridor to prevent the same rine to rush to your harvester over and over again. And even when they got sniped, they delayed attacks and you had most likely enough res to redrop them. Right now you don't use "miscellaneous" structures because you have to research upgrades and abilities in order to give your forces the chance to protect your expansions and because a whip is just something that can be destroyed with 2 mags in a relatively short period of time. As you say, they are a very risky investment and most likely placed in vain -> a delay for a 2nd hive or leap/1st upgrade. And such a support location is only sustainable when a gorge or too are around.

    As for the whips, why would anyone want to upgrade them? An upgraded whip doesn't get more HP and costs almost as much as a hive. The ranged attack vs rine armor is a joke as well. It won't stop anyone from sniping the whip as fast as before = useless. They could get more interesting if the armor or resistence vs range attacks would increase with an upgrade and with an extra damage versus Exos they could get a role in late game. But then again, if you are not already dominating the map you won't have enough res to place them.

    And in late game those structures are even more useless since a single Exo can just sweep a corridor clean of structures worth 3 hives in no time and without even the need to rearm.

    What I miss is a placement of upgrade chambers inside vents without infestation. Remember an MC, DC or SC dropped in a NS1 vent? That was always a good investment because it was of great help to the team and it was save for a long time = worth spending res on.

    And I am missing umbra crags as well. Btw, do crags heal hives right now or are they still not healing them again?

    In order to prevent the alien tech explosion with the costly upgrade system there is no room for alien structures and that is adding to the feeling that lifeforms are the only way to protect alien space. The problem with the most things in NS2 right now is that almost every change to prevent problems can cause new problems at another place. So what could be a solution for this problem? What should be the goal of a change? If you make the positions too strong or too cheap the rines will get blocked out and we have to fight another problem. What if we make the whips endure more damage at the same cost than before and let the other support structures be build outside the attack routes?


    In order to make those structures interesting again you can
    ...lower the costs, but that would lead again to the spam problem.
    ...increase the health/armor, but that could be frustrating for the rines.
    ...you could change the map design and add more "vent rooms" above key positions where aliens can build support structures so they are not directly in the path of attacking rines. But cyst placement will render this solution impossible. Maybe make the support strucutres placeable everywhere would be an idea. But I don't know if that should apply to whips as well.
    ...let the gorge build structures with pres that can be placed even in vents. That makes the gorge better, helps the team, but locks the player in the role as gorge since he invests a lot of pres. Would that work?

    Oh and something that is bugging me for a while, give us back parasite! I don't like the new hive sight, it is not as usefull as the good old parasite. If structures and rines aren't parasited, it is way more risky for a commander to place structures and invest in "miscellaneous" structures. (I know you can/should use drifters, but that would lead to more res useage and isn't as fun as parasiting)

    Well it got a bit long and maybe chaotic, but thinking about NS2 problems is always kinda chaotic, isn't it? :P
  • RobustPenguinRobustPenguin Join Date: 2012-08-17 Member: 155719Members
    It honestly just seems like theres no need for an alien commander right now. I spend maybe 5 minuets out of a 40 minuet game in the chair and the rest of it running around as a gorge. If thats the case why dont we just get rid of it and bring the gorge back to his former glory?
  • XariusXarius Join Date: 2003-12-21 Member: 24630Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    edited September 2012
    <!--quoteo(post=1978461:date=Sep 16 2012, 08:34 AM:name=RobustPenguin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RobustPenguin @ Sep 16 2012, 08:34 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1978461"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It honestly just seems like theres no need for an alien commander right now. I spend maybe 5 minuets out of a 40 minuet game in the chair and the rest of it running around as a gorge. If thats the case why dont we just get rid of it and bring the gorge back to his former glory?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    I'd have to agree with this. I don't hate the concept of the alien commander per se, heck I've even come to accept it, but now that we are nearing feature completion it's clear to me that the added value of the 24/7 alien commander is in fact marginal. (One could even argue it has no added value at all seeing as how it completely marginalised the role of the Gorge) Either it needs to become a way more active task, with a lot more choices and depth to it or it just needs to GTFO.

    My 2 cents anyway. The current alien commander role could easily be done by one 'super' gorge who has to jump into a hive occasionally (or press a button to go into 'overmind' modus) just to make some 'big decisions' (Which type of hive, which type of upgrade chamber, which lifeform upgrade)
  • RuntehRunteh Join Date: 2010-06-26 Member: 72163Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited September 2012
    Perhaps chambers should be placeable anywhere on the map, but infestation extends their power/range?

    For example, placing a shade on a path and linking it with a structure somehow would cloak everything up to that structure including itself.

    Or perhaps dropping a crag and linking to a structure would heal everything on infest from that crag to the structure.

    Or dropping a shift would increase energy between the shift and the linked structure.

    Thus creating paths for aliens. Obviously you would have to have limits on this somehow? But it sounds like a complicated implementation. Suppose you could do it by number of Cysts?

    I like Whips, but they are too cumbersome to move around. UWE should just remove the rooting system completely to make them useful.
  • ImbalanxdImbalanxd Join Date: 2011-06-15 Member: 104581Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1978457:date=Sep 16 2012, 03:32 PM:name=salor)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (salor @ Sep 16 2012, 03:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1978457"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think this is partially intentional by the game's design.


    The Marketing talks we keep hearing from Hugh is that the Marine Comm is suppose to be the High RPM style that we are used to on traditional RTS's, and the Alien Comm is more laid back (i.e. the cosmic gardener analogy).

    What i'm saying is that the alien comm is MEANT TO BE more laid back then the marine comm, by design. My guess is to keep the asymetry of the comm roles on both sides.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    I have no problem with that, and I think that aspect is working well. I love playing commander as aliens, but I still don't touch marine commander because they are very different, and the alien commander is more "laid back". But laid back doesn't mean doing nothing. If you want an example of laid back strategy, look at a game like Supreme Commander. Micro management of units and high RPM is very low on the list of priorities in that game but its all about managing multiple things at a time. You don't put much detailed focus into any one action, but there are tens of actions going on at any one time that require input.

    At the moment, the alien commander has the lack of detailed focus down, but is missing the multiple things to do at any one time. There are periods when there really is absolutely nothing to do, and I don't think that's acceptable.
  • BitcrusherBitcrusher Join Date: 2012-08-28 Member: 156628Members
    I would agree that the alien commander has little to do.. i wouldn't say aliens need to drop more structures. IF you get an early hive, you basically can afford one res node and then you wait for the second hive to complete. After that you can wait for leap and place more res nodes. Cyst nodes can be placed pretty quickly so there isn't really a point in spreading them around the map except for map vision. More likely you will lose cyst in the process to marines and a drifter would be better for vision.
    I would like if the creep spreads by itself and gorges go back to building hives and be able to place whips craigs and etc.

    The laid back feeling of alien comm is because they weren't really meant to be played top down like the marines where you have to micro and babysit them.
  • ImbalanxdImbalanxd Join Date: 2011-06-15 Member: 104581Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1978470:date=Sep 16 2012, 04:02 PM:name=Bitcrusher)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bitcrusher @ Sep 16 2012, 04:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1978470"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Cyst nodes can be placed pretty quickly so there isn't really a point in spreading them around the map except for map vision.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Explain
  • Wyattx3Wyattx3 Join Date: 2003-07-23 Member: 18386Members
    I think having the ability to drop lifeform eggs is one reason we see very few structures on the field. Why drop whips and a shift when you can just keep dropping fade eggs?

    I think at a certain point you will have enough fades or there will be a decreasing benefit to having all those fade eggs, and at that point your team is most likely already swimming in resources and has won the game.

    Another point though, if you're playing as a marine would you necessarily want to spend a majority of your time playing clearing out structures? There certainly is a point where there are too many structures on the field.

    So it might be worth it reducing the cost of only certain structures so that they are used more often. I think the shift is certainly one that is not used enough. The commander can micro how many eggs he has in certain areas where he has shifts, and depending on which side of the map is needing back up he can spawn eggs at the closest shift.

    I don't know if any other structures really warrant a change, as we wouldn't want whips and crags over used, and shades I find are just fine.

    Marines get their extractors chewed down far more than aliens lose their harvesters, so I don't see any need for them to have added defenses at their harvesters.
  • BitcrusherBitcrusher Join Date: 2012-08-28 Member: 156628Members
    edited September 2012
    Cyst cost res, you don't really need to expand the cyst chain till your ready to place a res node down. They don't need to wait for the creep to spread before you place another one, so you just spam cyst to your res node and place a cyst right next to the res node which minimizes creep spread time needed to place the harvester. Overextending cysts just makes marines aware of a hive and takes away from res build up needed for upgrades or a new harvester.

    TLDR not worth it to extend cysts except to place a building.
  • ZekZek Join Date: 2002-11-10 Member: 7962Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited September 2012
    Structures definitely aren't very appealing compared to the ability to drop Fade/Onos eggs for your team. They need to be either cheaper or more powerful so the benefit of an equivalent cost worth of structures is comparable to having more lifeforms on your team.
  • OprahOprah Join Date: 2012-08-14 Member: 155615Members
    Because it's a waste of money. The only time you should drop any of those structures, other than right at your hives or your upgrades, is when the game is pretty much over and you're trying to break the marines turtle. There are far better things to spend your money on as the Khamm and I can't stand in pubs when Alien commanders instantly expand to 5 RTs only to lose 2 of them and then not have enough cash to get the second hive up until the 9 minute mark. You have to play extremely economically as the Khamm.
  • ImbalanxdImbalanxd Join Date: 2011-06-15 Member: 104581Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1978514:date=Sep 16 2012, 06:33 PM:name=Oprah)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Oprah @ Sep 16 2012, 06:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1978514"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Because it's a waste of money. The only time you should drop any of those structures, other than right at your hives or your upgrades, is when the game is pretty much over and you're trying to break the marines turtle. There are far better things to spend your money on as the Khamm and I can't stand in pubs when Alien commanders instantly expand to 5 RTs only to lose 2 of them and then not have enough cash to get the second hive up until the 9 minute mark. You have to play extremely economically as the Khamm.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Playing economically translates to completely ignoring 50% of all alien structures, which makes for incredibly boring commanding. Imagine commanding for marines and all you ever dropped was armouries and phase gates.
  • TimMcTimMc Join Date: 2012-02-06 Member: 143945Members
    I kinda of agree. Only times you build alien structures (besides hive defense) is when you have run out of things to research.

    Spamming whips and echoing them into a base, spamming crags outside marine turtle, spamming hallucinations, etc. All these things are low priority until the endgame. Especially since the change for commander to drop evolutions using tres. Before at least you would see structure drops mid-game, to break mid-game turtles for 3rd hive room.
  • 1dominator11dominator1 Join Date: 2010-11-19 Member: 75011Members
    edited September 2012
    Even early a whip can be a good investment if your skulks/gorges watch and use it and shifts always kick ass.
  • XariusXarius Join Date: 2003-12-21 Member: 24630Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    They need to make whips, hydras and sentries more viable overall tbh. Proper defensive structures are an important part of any RTS. I realise it's not fun facing these in an FPS environment, but there's plenty of viable counters available in both side's tech trees. (Not to mention that having to deal with an occasional defensive structure can hardly qualify as 'poor gameplay', as long as you don't have to fight sentry or hydra farms it should be fine)
  • MisterNubsMisterNubs Join Date: 2012-03-01 Member: 147912Members
    A month to go before release and the game is considered feature complete. If you're serious about wanting better gameplay (a la NS1 gorge=kham) might as well just wait for a NS1 mod, because you'll be hard pressed to get anything changed.
  • 3DKnight3DKnight Join Date: 2002-11-28 Member: 10181Members
    it would be awesome if 100% mature whips would cause any grenades thrown back to be "alien" damage to the marines, at a lower percentage.

    this would make them useful and deter grenade spam marine offensive creeping. they are expensive and slow to mature, but do almost nothing since GL's will pump 3 off and back away
  • ImbalanxdImbalanxd Join Date: 2011-06-15 Member: 104581Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1978568:date=Sep 16 2012, 08:45 PM:name=1dominator1)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (1dominator1 @ Sep 16 2012, 08:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1978568"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Even early a whip can be a good investment if your skulks/gorges watch and use it and shifts always kick ass.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Give me an example of how a shift would kick ass.
  • RobustPenguinRobustPenguin Join Date: 2012-08-17 Member: 155719Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1978619:date=Sep 16 2012, 09:19 PM:name=MisterNubs)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MisterNubs @ Sep 16 2012, 09:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1978619"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A month to go before release and the game is considered feature complete. If you're serious about wanting better gameplay (a la NS1 gorge=kham) might as well just wait for a NS1 mod, because you'll be hard pressed to get anything changed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    This, I am so hoping someones working on reverting alien khamm back to gorge.
  • CrusherCrusher Join Date: 2012-08-21 Member: 156083Members
    Maybe I'm just a noob(which I kind of am) but I think the alien commanding is good. The two "races" are different, which makes for a different play style. And you don't have to stay as a commander the whole time. Once you build the main structures (like hive, harvester) you can pop out of the comm to do some harass etc..help out your team.. . Then pop back in when the team has some more res, do some comming again... .
  • MisterNubsMisterNubs Join Date: 2012-03-01 Member: 147912Members
    edited September 2012
    <!--quoteo(post=1978634:date=Sep 16 2012, 04:47 PM:name=RobustPenguin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RobustPenguin @ Sep 16 2012, 04:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1978634"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This, I am so hoping someones working on reverting alien khamm back to gorge.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    I watched video a month or two back where a gorge was dropping harvesters, stating they were making a NS1 Mod, but I haven't kept up with it lately and not sure where they are at with it now.

    Hopefully 1.0 doesn't putt off too many people. I already see the community dropping a month after release, meaning that mods will have a difficult time to form a community in itself.
  • RobustPenguinRobustPenguin Join Date: 2012-08-17 Member: 155719Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1978640:date=Sep 16 2012, 09:53 PM:name=MisterNubs)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MisterNubs @ Sep 16 2012, 09:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1978640"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I watched video a month or two back where a gorge was dropping harvesters, stating they were making a NS1 Mod, but I haven't kept up with it lately and not sure where they are at with it now.

    Hopefully 1.0 doesn't putt off too many people. I already see the community dropping a month after release, meaning that mods will have a difficult time to form a community in itself.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Yea, I dunno. I just want all the crappy seemingly tacked on aspects of the game removed, khamm and cysts especially. It feels totally tacked and and doesnt add any tactical or shooter benifits beyond 'lol better sit in that chair and spam your team res away so the marines can kill them'
  • SixtyWattManSixtyWattMan Join Date: 2004-09-05 Member: 31404Members
    IMO they should let Gorges drop crags and shades.
  • XariusXarius Join Date: 2003-12-21 Member: 24630Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    If they give more to the gorge the alien commander is going to become even more dull than it already is. If they take away even more from the gorge and give it to the alien commander, the gorge is going to become even more dull than it already is.

    See where I'm going with this? Since there's not enough abilities and structures to make both roles viable, we're currently in a situation where neither have enough to do to be interesting.

    The easiest solution would be to make the gorge a proper combat engineer class, i.e make it actually able to stand up to marines and/or buff it's offensive capability (Combat engineers tend to have shotguns, making them effective at close distance, this would be an incentive for marines to keep away from gorges) They always said the gorge was going to be a combat engineer, yet somehow it isn't (Not even close even) What's the hold up?

    Either that or simply ditch the alien commander, but that's not going to happen.
  • RobustPenguinRobustPenguin Join Date: 2012-08-17 Member: 155719Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1978633:date=Sep 16 2012, 09:47 PM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Sep 16 2012, 09:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1978633"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Give me an example of how a shift would kick ass.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Build one very close to the enemies base and spawn a load of eggs with it? Its handy but is too expensive for what it is
  • TheIcarusKidTheIcarusKid Join Date: 2012-03-23 Member: 149258Members
    edited September 2012
    <!--quoteo(post=1978633:date=Sep 16 2012, 01:47 PM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Sep 16 2012, 01:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1978633"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Give me an example of how a shift would kick ass.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Players are finally starting to catch on how awesome shifts are. The 10 res cost instead of 15 goes a long way in making it a viable choice for the Khamm - as you stated earlier, most of the time structures aren't dropped because they're simply too expensive and other upgrades/hives are too important to pass up.

    They are amazing for supporting forward gorge positions. Hatch can be game breaking due to the spawning code favoring Shift eggs. If a gorge manages to set up at a forward location (say Shipping when your hive is Warehouse), then a Shift will help him heal his hydras. Drop 3-4 eggs there, and you instantly have skulk support in a location that would have taken a very long time to walk.

    Right now they're the closest thing aliens have to phase gates AND beacon. They're also great for defending unbuilt hives that don't have any gorges nearby. Drop a shift, 4-5 eggs, turn 1-2 of them into gorges, and suddenly that ballsy hive drop is a lot more viable.

    So much of this hinges on the 10 res cost. If it were 15, I'd probably pass it up for early-mid game.

    EDIT: On an unrelated note, really wish the structure hallucinations were cheaper. It's a fun mechanic, but the cost is unjustifiable in all but games that are already won. 15 res for a fake hive? Really? Then again, it's 30 res for the upgraded shade which is also pretty silly, so... yeah. Upgraded Shade/Shift/Crag/Whip should give more HP on top of maturity - the cost is simply too high to justify their abilities over placing a second structure.
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