Alien commanders need to drop more structures

2

Comments

  • ImbalanxdImbalanxd Join Date: 2011-06-15 Member: 104581Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1978711:date=Sep 17 2012, 12:46 AM:name=TheIcarusKid)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TheIcarusKid @ Sep 17 2012, 12:46 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1978711"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Players are finally starting to catch on how awesome shifts are. The 10 res cost instead of 15 goes a long way in making it a viable choice for the Khamm - as you stated earlier, most of the time structures aren't dropped because they're simply too expensive and other upgrades/hives are too important to pass up.

    They are amazing for supporting forward gorge positions. Hatch can be game breaking due to the spawning code favoring Shift eggs. If a gorge manages to set up at a forward location (say Shipping when your hive is Warehouse), then a Shift will help him heal his hydras. Drop 3-4 eggs there, and you instantly have skulk support in a location that would have taken a very long time to walk.

    Right now they're the closest thing aliens have to phase gates AND beacon. They're also great for defending unbuilt hives that don't have any gorges nearby. Drop a shift, 4-5 eggs, turn 1-2 of them into gorges, and suddenly that ballsy hive drop is a lot more viable.

    So much of this hinges on the 10 res cost. If it were 15, I'd probably pass it up for early-mid game.

    EDIT: On an unrelated note, really wish the structure hallucinations were cheaper. It's a fun mechanic, but the cost is unjustifiable in all but games that are already won. 15 res for a fake hive? Really? Then again, it's 30 res for the upgraded shade which is also pretty silly, so... yeah. Upgraded Shade/Shift/Crag/Whip should give more HP on top of maturity - the cost is simply too high to justify their abilities over placing a second structure.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    The spawn code doesn't "favor" it. It forces the spawn there. You can effectively kill your hive by placing those eggs unwisely, as you won't have anyone to defend. Furthermore, at the point at which this strategy becomes viable, spawning skulks near the enemy base no longer poses any threat. Oh noes! a bunch of skulks! Oh look one grenade killed them all BACK TO THE HIVE. Also, be my guest to place 100+ res in fade eggs near an unprotected outpost.
  • AudioAudio Join Date: 2012-09-09 Member: 158740Members
    Nice thread. When i read the title , my immediate thought was crag stacking. Crags shouldn't stack and they need a significant buff.
  • FlamingoFlamingo Join Date: 2009-07-15 Member: 68141Members, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow
    I actually always drop buildings as alien comm, and I am a huge fan of echoing bases around to aid in attacks and <i>shift</i> frontlines (hah, see what I did there?). A personal favorite of mine is to echo ~5-7 mature whips into the marine base while they're on an attack. The resulting bombard takes out most bases fairly quickly while the marines are stuck getting whacked, or sitting outside shooting them and not being able to attack or defend.
  • KeldornKeldorn Join Date: 2012-05-05 Member: 151587Members
    I would really like to see somekind of "tier 1.5" for aliens. Getting a 2nd hive currently impacts a match tremendously, a bit too much imho. At one point you can't do alot (1 hive) and the moment you get the second hive you don't know where to spend res first.

    Hence alien commanders rather save and get that 2nd hive before doing anything else (aside from placing cysts/harvesters), since that gives them options.
  • ImbalanxdImbalanxd Join Date: 2011-06-15 Member: 104581Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1978982:date=Sep 17 2012, 02:03 PM:name=Keldorn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Keldorn @ Sep 17 2012, 02:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1978982"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Getting a 2nd hive currently impacts a match tremendously, a bit too much imho.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Get out.
  • TimMcTimMc Join Date: 2012-02-06 Member: 143945Members
    Shesh marine whining. Last I saw shotguns impacted the match tremendously, as did grenade launchers. Aliens don't whine and demand those to require 2 CC.
  • RobustPenguinRobustPenguin Join Date: 2012-08-17 Member: 155719Members
    edited September 2012
    <!--quoteo(post=1978888:date=Sep 17 2012, 09:11 AM:name=Flamingo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flamingo @ Sep 17 2012, 09:11 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1978888"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I actually always drop buildings as alien comm, and I am a huge fan of echoing bases around to aid in attacks and <i>shift</i> frontlines (hah, see what I did there?). A personal favorite of mine is to echo ~5-7 mature whips into the marine base while they're on an attack. The resulting bombard takes out most bases fairly quickly while the marines are stuck getting whacked, or sitting outside shooting them and not being able to attack or defend.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Good luck with that, shifting 7 whips around costs 21 res per teleport, 30 res for the echo, 105 for the whips and takes about 30 seconds or more because of the cooldown. Do you really think that the shift is more useful than 3 onos or 4 fades? The only thing worth building atm is a forward heal station, and thats only if you dont have a gorge there
  • KeldornKeldorn Join Date: 2012-05-05 Member: 151587Members
    edited September 2012
    <!--quoteo(post=1978990:date=Sep 17 2012, 02:17 PM:name=TimMc)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TimMc @ Sep 17 2012, 02:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1978990"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Shesh marine whining. Last I saw shotguns impacted the match tremendously, as did grenade launchers. Aliens don't whine and demand those to require 2 CC.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->


    Not sure what you two are on about, what I'm trying to say is that the gameplay changes dramatically the moment aliens have 2 hives. I'd like to see it more gradual, as in get more options BEFORE you get the 2nd hive, to lessen the overal dependency/priority to pump all res in that 2nd hive right away.
  • RuntehRunteh Join Date: 2010-06-26 Member: 72163Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    They should drop chamber cost dramatically so they see more use. If spam is an issue, just make it so you can't place another chamber within another chambers range. Same goes for crag too.

    Also, get rid of whip rooting. Currently having to root whips is the most pointless button in this game, and we might actually see some whip rushes if this was removed. Seriously Charlie, this game is so fast. Can you imagine directing 3 whips into marine base and THEN having to select all of them, and THEN having to click root, and then have them be effective.

    If you need a delay, just make it so that it auto roots when it stops (deploy time) but can move quickly if given an order (pack up time). It is a win win situation, and same goes for ARC as well. Easily moveable, takes time to deploy.

    I'd love to see shifts spawning eggs near marine spawn, or shades being used to cloak new hive drops, or quick crag drops.

    But if they are going to be cheap, just get rid of any stacking effects and make it so you have to place out of range.
  • KeldornKeldorn Join Date: 2012-05-05 Member: 151587Members
    Or something probably totally OP and makes echo useless but, allow chambers to move themselves like whips to strategically position themselves. Gives khams something to do :D
  • RuntehRunteh Join Date: 2010-06-26 Member: 72163Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    Or just make echo cheaper and/or effective.
  • RobustPenguinRobustPenguin Join Date: 2012-08-17 Member: 155719Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1978996:date=Sep 17 2012, 01:25 PM:name=Runteh)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Runteh @ Sep 17 2012, 01:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1978996"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->They should drop chamber cost dramatically so they see more use. If spam is an issue, just make it so you can't place another chamber within another chambers range. Same goes for crag too.

    Also, get rid of whip rooting. Currently having to root whips is the most pointless button in this game, and we might actually see some whip rushes if this was removed. Seriously Charlie, this game is so fast. Can you imagine directing 3 whips into marine base and THEN having to select all of them, and THEN having to click root, and then have them be effective.

    If you need a delay, just make it so that it auto roots when it stops (deploy time) but can move quickly if given an order (pack up time). It is a win win situation, and same goes for ARC as well. Easily moveable, takes time to deploy.

    I'd love to see shifts spawning eggs near marine spawn, or shades being used to cloak new hive drops, or quick crag drops.

    But if they are going to be cheap, just get rid of any stacking effects and make it so you have to place out of range.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    I keep hoping that they'll turn bombard whips into the 'arc' for the aliens, think about it. Its already an expensive, delayed unit that is easy to kill, requires looking after, has a fairly long range and required commander controll. That way aliens might actually be able to finish a game within this century
  • ImbalanxdImbalanxd Join Date: 2011-06-15 Member: 104581Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1979020:date=Sep 17 2012, 03:07 PM:name=RobustPenguin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RobustPenguin @ Sep 17 2012, 03:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1979020"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I keep hoping that they'll turn bombard whips into the 'arc' for the aliens, think about it. Its already an expensive, delayed unit that is easy to kill, requires looking after, has a fairly long range and required commander controll. That way aliens might actually be able to finish a game within this century<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    They essentially were a few patches ago. Waddling 3 or 4 upgraded whips into marine spawn meant they would lose a good 70% of their base. They bombarded once every 3 or 4 seconds and did a ton of AOE damage. Then they nerfed it so that they died almost instantly, bombarded once every +-10 seconds, and usually missed the target. I haven't seen an upgraded whip since.
  • XariusXarius Join Date: 2003-12-21 Member: 24630Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    Sounds like a classic case of NS2 overnerfing :>
  • _Necro__Necro_ Join Date: 2011-02-15 Member: 81895Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited September 2012
    Mhhh... there are some valid points there. But also a big problem:<ul><li>If you want the kham to be more interesting, he should drop more buildings.</li><li>If the alien com should drop more buildings, they need to be cheaper and/or more effective.</li><li>If he drops more buildings, marines are fighting more against static AI instead of players and this is not fun for them.</li></ul>
    Lets first look closer. I think the shade and the shift are quite right. (To your wrong theory-crafting about the usefulness of shifts later...)
    That means we need to look at the craig and the whip.

    <u>The Craig:</u>
    The craigs active(!) healing ability is quite powerful but even than you need two for fast healing a fade. The passive healing is not mentionable. As already been said, the solution could be to <b>forbid building a craig in the healing radius of another craig</b>. If we have this anti-spam-mechanic in, we can <b>pump up the healing ability a good bit</b>. (Compare it to armories. They do partially the same for marines, but marines don't die that often as a skulk. So the usefulness of the craig is further weakened, by being mainly for higher life forms.)
    The other part of the change is, that<b> the price needs to be toned down</b>. Together with a <b>decrease of the health of the building</b>. It should be fast killable, to not annoy marines, but also cheap in res to justify the low health. (I think of 5 or 7res per craig but killable in one LMG magazine.)

    <u>The Whip:</u>
    15 Res for such a building is more of a gift to any marine that comes by. They really get useful in numbers of 4 or 5 and with a shade hiding them. With good positioning, the whips in this numbers can easily kill a marine that tries to run past the first one. But in any other case this 15 res are better invested in any upgrade or life form.
    If they would reliable smack grenades back when they are matured (like in previous builds) They could be more useful. But I don't have a really good idea how to balance them to be viable in the first 10 minutes of a game.

    ---

    Lastly to the usefulness of shifts. (I'm talking only about pub-games here.)
    I have won more than one match with them. They are incredibly powerful with the new spawning system. And even more in veil, where aliens can only spawn at the bottom of the map without a shift.
    Yes, you can actively lose a hive, if you place to much eggs on a wrong position. But why is that an argument against the shift? It isn't bad just because you can make failures while using it. You just have to plan a little bit ahead and shouldn't place the shift to obvious or to many eggs.
    The shift is the most effective way for an alien com to direct his troops. A skulk-rush started at a shift even in the middle of veil (near nano), can take out the marine base or force a beacon nearly every time. Holding nano is nearly impossible for marines with skulks spawning that near.
    Sure, if there is that one GLer that has the luck to be in the base when the rush happens and also has the luck to hit the whole bunch of skulks and if the moon is shining from the right and blablabla... Face it, you construct a situation that is not happening in reality. As I said, I tried that tactic successfully several times and was never countered by a GL-marine. It is powerful. No matter if you haven't discovered it yet or not.
  • RobustPenguinRobustPenguin Join Date: 2012-08-17 Member: 155719Members
    Whips just need to properly work against a grenade launcher. If I have 2 whips (30 res) which have matured (takes forever) and 1 guy with a GL comes along he shouldnt be able to kill the damn whips with it. More than that a grenade tossed back should do damage to marines like it would to aliens, it seems ridiculous that you could throw the nade back and it only hurt the marine who fired it and aliens.

    I really do believe that they either need more active stuff for the khamm to do (ala medpack spam, nanoshield, scan etc) or just remove it all together. Currently you myst every now and then post 8 minuet mark, and very rarely use infestation spikes to help someone being chased. If you're a good khamm you spread some drifters about and use enzyme on base attacks but thats about it. Give us more abilities and make them more accessible, yes, ink is very handy but its awkward to get at. This would fix the problem of khamm being kinda lame whilst not causing marines to be permafighting the environment.
  • ImbalanxdImbalanxd Join Date: 2011-06-15 Member: 104581Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1979063:date=Sep 17 2012, 05:20 PM:name=_Necro_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (_Necro_ @ Sep 17 2012, 05:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1979063"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Lastly to the usefulness of shifts. (I'm talking only about pub-games here.)
    I have won more than one match with them. They are incredibly powerful with the new spawning system. And even more in veil, where aliens can only spawn at the bottom of the map without a shift.
    Yes, you can actively lose a hive, if you place to much eggs on a wrong position. But why is that an argument against the shift? It isn't bad just because you can make failures while using it. You just have to plan a little bit ahead and shouldn't place the shift to obvious or to many eggs.
    The shift is the most effective way for an alien com to direct his troops. A skulk-rush started at a shift even in the middle of veil (near nano), can take out the marine base or force a beacon nearly every time. Holding nano is nearly impossible for marines with skulks spawning that near.
    Sure, if there is that one GLer that has the luck to be in the base when the rush happens and also has the luck to hit the whole bunch of skulks and if the moon is shining from the right and blablabla... Face it, you construct a situation that is not happening in reality. As I said, I tried that tactic successfully several times and was never countered by a GL-marine. It is powerful. No matter if you haven't discovered it yet or not.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Name a useful place to have a Shift in veil. I'll do it for you, because there are two locations. West Skylights and Topographical. If aliens control either of those res nodes, marines have already lost. At the moment this fascination with shifts is just people being elitist and thinking that min maxing is orsm sauce, just as they do with enzyme cloud. Shifts have never won a game that wasn't already won. Yes, they are useful for getting somewhere quickly, but lets look at that statement. In order for them to be most useful, they need to be pretty far away from the main hive. Due to the size of NS2 maps, far away from main hive means close to marine spawn. When do aliens build close to marine spawn? When the game is already won.

    They are interesting, but ultimately largely useless.
  • FlamingoFlamingo Join Date: 2009-07-15 Member: 68141Members, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow
    <!--quoteo(post=1978992:date=Sep 17 2012, 05:20 AM:name=RobustPenguin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RobustPenguin @ Sep 17 2012, 05:20 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1978992"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Good luck with that, shifting 7 whips around costs 21 res per teleport, 30 res for the echo, 105 for the whips and takes about 30 seconds or more because of the cooldown. Do you really think that the shift is more useful than 3 onos or 4 fades? The only thing worth building atm is a forward heal station, and thats only if you dont have a gorge there<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Well you see this isn't something I suddenly decide to do, it's something I place little by little in a safe location over the course of the game so that I don't impact the economy too much and await a time when I can ninja some cysts into the base. Also, if my fades don't die, it's not really a problem. Like I said, it's usually only when we're on the losing end that it's much use anyways. I have been saved in more than one game by ninja whips though. And the time spent is really not that bad. If the alien comm could just echo all of the structures instantly for like 2 TRes, he would never lose a structure.

    One thing I'd like to see is the power to echo RT's and Hives (for a larger cost of course). I think an alien relocation should be a viable, yet expensive, tactic (and more than once I've had an RT being ninja'd in a forward base, with a fully secured, open nozzle on the other end of the map).
  • TimMcTimMc Join Date: 2012-02-06 Member: 143945Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1979195:date=Sep 17 2012, 02:26 PM:name=Flamingo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flamingo @ Sep 17 2012, 02:26 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1979195"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->One thing I'd like to see is the power to echo RT's and Hives (for a larger cost of course). I think an alien relocation should be a viable, yet expensive, tactic (and more than once I've had an RT being ninja'd in a forward base, with a fully secured, open nozzle on the other end of the map).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Pretty sure you already can echo hives. I've used it before, moving a mature hive to the front line and building the new hive back behind our lines.
  • FlamingoFlamingo Join Date: 2009-07-15 Member: 68141Members, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow
    <!--quoteo(post=1979201:date=Sep 17 2012, 01:35 PM:name=TimMc)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TimMc @ Sep 17 2012, 01:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1979201"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Pretty sure you already can echo hives. I've used it before, moving a mature hive to the front line and building the new hive back behind our lines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    I could have sworn I saw this at one point, but I can't seem to find it anymore (then again, I don't believe I've bothered to look lately). Adding on to my previous post though; A good gorge and a skulk can lock down a hive room with Alien Comm support. This morning a gorge (ILSunny if I recall) and his skulk buddy set up a few hydras in tram (from gen), and held against a marine assault for ages with my help. Eventually I threw up a few whips and they were practically invincible from then on out. Whips are wonderful when they're just around the corner (just the slightest bit inside the wall), with one on each side. They can hold back tons of grenades because the grenade has to arc through the entire diameter of the whip to hit anything, so they have more of a chance to hit it. Additionally, if you actually want to kill it, you have to walk around the corner into their smack-zone, where you run the risk of facing a bunch of hydras.

    Note: Not sure if the above accurately explains the point I'm trying to make.
  • Katana-Katana- Join Date: 2008-11-25 Member: 65575Members
    edited September 2012
    One interesting change might be:

    Make alien structures like the crag, shift and shade free, but make the comm pay for increases to the maximum number they can have at one time. So you pay 30 tres to research crags, then you can drop one crag for free, if that one dies you can drop a new one. You can also re drop the structure in a new place. You could allow the comm to research upgrades to the maximum structure count for each structure type.

    I think a system like this makes it so the alien comm can spend time redeploying his structure in more effective places. Build/maturity time will make it so he can't spam structures in the same place, unless his team can clear out the marines. This makes it possible for the alien com to put up forward bases quickly to support his team, but because new structures get stronger over time he is rewarded for not redeploying too often. I also like it because it has a really different feel from the way a marine commander supports his team. Marines support very directly by giving med-packs etc, alien comm supports by making the environment hostile to marines and helpful to aliens.
  • TimMcTimMc Join Date: 2012-02-06 Member: 143945Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1979218:date=Sep 17 2012, 03:20 PM:name=Katana-)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Katana- @ Sep 17 2012, 03:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1979218"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->One interesting change might be:

    Make alien structures like the crag, shift and shade free, but make the comm pay for increases to the maximum number they can have at one time. So you pay 30 tres to research crags, then you can drop one crag for free, if that one dies you can drop a new one. You can also re drop the structure in a new place. You could allow the comm to research upgrades to the maximum structure count for each structure type.

    I think a system like this makes it so the alien comm can spend time redeploying his structure in more effective places. Build/maturity time will make it so he can't spam structures in the same place, unless his team can clear out the marines. This makes it possible for the alien com to put up forward bases quickly to support his team, but because new structures get stronger over time he is rewarded for not redeploying too often. I also like it because it has a really different feel from the way a marine commander supports his team. Marines support very directly by giving med-packs etc, alien comm supports by making the environment hostile to marines and helpful to aliens.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Its an... interesting idea.

    On one hand, my first thought is that I will start to structure spam. The second a forward base dies, I will immediately drop another a few meters back. There is no longer a reason not to. Marines will get sick of killing my structures so often.

    On the other hand, I don't want to tie up my cap if I can push another direction. I will be deploying shifts everywhere to relocate the structures, since I am hard capped.

    It could make the game more interesting, and far less frustrating for alien comm.
  • DeadzoneDeadzone Join Date: 2003-07-03 Member: 17911Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    <!--quoteo(post=1978457:date=Sep 16 2012, 08:32 AM:name=salor)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (salor @ Sep 16 2012, 08:32 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1978457"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think this is partially intentional by the game's design.


    The Marketing talks we keep hearing from Hugh is that the Marine Comm is suppose to be the High RPM style that we are used to on traditional RTS's, and the Alien Comm is more laid back (i.e. the cosmic gardener analogy).

    What i'm saying is that the alien comm is MEANT TO BE more laid back then the marine comm, by design. My guess is to keep the asymetry of the comm roles on both sides.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->


    If it's about the asymetry, why not REALLY crank it and have.... one side with comm, one side with no comm? :o
    Remove an apparently dull khammander experience, and pump some life into one of the most under-appreciated classes?
  • Katana-Katana- Join Date: 2008-11-25 Member: 65575Members
    edited September 2012
    <!--quoteo(post=1979272:date=Sep 17 2012, 04:35 PM:name=TimMc)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TimMc @ Sep 17 2012, 04:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1979272"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Its an... interesting idea.

    On one hand, my first thought is that I will start to structure spam. The second a forward base dies, I will immediately drop another a few meters back. There is no longer a reason not to. Marines will get sick of killing my structures so often.

    On the other hand, I don't want to tie up my cap if I can push another direction. I will be deploying shifts everywhere to relocate the structures, since I am hard capped.

    It could make the game more interesting, and far less frustrating for alien comm.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    I don't think re-dropping a ways back will be a problem, because the structures take a reasonably long time to grow, and are very easy to kill before they reach maturity. Marines can easily steam roll over re-drops, unless they are a long way back, or there are alien players slowing the marine advance and gorges to build the structures quickly.

    Also I imagine you can kill off the old crags/shifts/shades to drop new ones, so you don't need to use shift to redeploy, but the newly dropped structures will have to regrow and mature again so there is a trade off to redeployment.
  • _Necro__Necro_ Join Date: 2011-02-15 Member: 81895Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    <!--quoteo(post=1979081:date=Sep 17 2012, 05:58 PM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Sep 17 2012, 05:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1979081"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Name a useful place to have a Shift in veil. I'll do it for you, because there are two locations. West Skylights and Topographical. If aliens control either of those res nodes, marines have already lost. At the moment this fascination with shifts is just people being elitist and thinking that min maxing is orsm sauce, just as they do with enzyme cloud. Shifts have never won a game that wasn't already won. Yes, they are useful for getting somewhere quickly, but lets look at that statement. In order for them to be most useful, they need to be pretty far away from the main hive. Due to the size of NS2 maps, far away from main hive means close to marine spawn. When do aliens build close to marine spawn? When the game is already won.

    They are interesting, but ultimately largely useless.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    No, they are not. I believe you, that you have never seen a successful use of shifts. But I propose, that you have also never seen a failed use of shifts. All you do is theory-crafting. I assure you, that I have won games with shifts, that wasn't already won by the aliens. I will try to explain it further. First of all, veil is a bigger map and overall better suitable for the shift-tactic (mineshaft works too). Secondly you named two wrong positions for shifts. RTs are never a good position. You need a point where no marine is coming by for the buildtime of the shift plus 5 or 10 seconds. In veil this is either east junction or west junction. (Mention that both rooms have no res point.) You need to observe in the first minutes of the game, where the marines are pushing. (They will often try to get one tech point.) Cyst to the junction that is not in the main-route of the incoming marines. If they have already a phase gate, this is even easier because they will rarely roam the map. As soon as your shift is build you place the eggs, (You have to try out the amount, its very situational and depends for example if a hive rush is going on or not.) you not only have a very quick access to nano grid, you also can direct the spawning skulks to rush the marine base now. (I prefer to rush nano first.) With such a near spawn to nano grid, this room will be conquered sooner or later. If you are worried, that a marine will attack your shift, (very unlikely while they need to defend such a strong and enduring push on a room) be assured, that the regularly spawning skulks at the shift (together with a little intel from you) are enough to defend any incoming marines in the most cases.

    If you believe it or not, this tactic works. Even a marine mainbase push from a shift in east/west junction works very good, because the traveling distance is nearly halved AND the aliens spawn all at the same position ensuring that you can make a fast push without waiting for all skulks to arrive at a gather point.

    Just try it out and you will see for yourself. It sure is not a guarantied win, (That would mean it is overpowered and it isn't) but it is a very valid tactic. And yes if you lay down to many eggs, you can lose a hive. But than this is your own fault. Like it's the marine coms fault if he lets every marine go exo and leave the base.
  • ImbalanxdImbalanxd Join Date: 2011-06-15 Member: 104581Members
    edited September 2012
    <!--quoteo(post=1979440:date=Sep 18 2012, 10:40 AM:name=_Necro_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (_Necro_ @ Sep 18 2012, 10:40 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1979440"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No, they are not. I believe you, that you have never seen a successful use of shifts. But I propose, that you have also never seen a failed use of shifts. All you do is theory-crafting. I assure you, that I have won games with shifts, that wasn't already won by the aliens. I will try to explain it further. First of all, veil is a bigger map and overall better suitable for the shift-tactic (mineshaft works too). Secondly you named two wrong positions for shifts. RTs are never a good position. You need a point where no marine is coming by for the buildtime of the shift plus 5 or 10 seconds. In veil this is either east junction or west junction. (Mention that both rooms have no res point.) You need to observe in the first minutes of the game, where the marines are pushing. (They will often try to get one tech point.) Cyst to the junction that is not in the main-route of the incoming marines. If they have already a phase gate, this is even easier because they will rarely roam the map. As soon as your shift is build you place the eggs, (You have to try out the amount, its very situational and depends for example if a hive rush is going on or not.) you not only have a very quick access to nano grid, you also can direct the spawning skulks to rush the marine base now. (I prefer to rush nano first.) With such a near spawn to nano grid, this room will be conquered sooner or later. If you are worried, that a marine will attack your shift, (very unlikely while they need to defend such a strong and enduring push on a room) be assured, that the regularly spawning skulks at the shift (together with a little intel from you) are enough to defend any incoming marines in the most cases.

    If you believe it or not, this tactic works. Even a marine mainbase push from a shift in east/west junction works very good, because the traveling distance is nearly halved AND the aliens spawn all at the same position ensuring that you can make a fast push without waiting for all skulks to arrive at a gather point.

    Just try it out and you will see for yourself. It sure is not a guarantied win, (That would mean it is overpowered and it isn't) but it is a very valid tactic. And yes if you lay down to many eggs, you can lose a hive. But than this is your own fault. Like it's the marine coms fault if he lets every marine go exo and leave the base.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    When playing against marine teams that lose fortified locations to skulks, then yes, the tactic may have merit. However, since that limits it to use only during large influx of brand new players who have never before used a mouse, I still find its use limited. Explain to me what use it is to send wave after wave of skulks against marine fortifications? Why is it better to send skulks in from west junction than it is from sub sector? The travel time of a skulk with leap and celerity from sub sector to west junction is about 4 or 5 seconds. Is that worth it? Especially when attacking in waves? What is the benefit?

    Also, if you plan on attacking with higher level lifeforms, and you actually want to place those lifeform eggs at the shift, there are a few downsides to consider. First of all, the obvious risks. When you build outposts around resource towers, you increase chance of encounter but you also increase coverage, that is to say, building 3 whips around a shift is questionable. Building 3 whips around a shift and a resource tower is far less questionable. Either way however, the risk of a marine coming in and ruining your ###### is always there. Lose the eggs, lose the lifeform. Furthermore, even if the eggs aren't lost, placing lifeform eggs at your quick response station effectively largely reduces the quick response aspect. If your shift outpost saves 10 seconds in travel time off the hive rooms 15 seconds, but going Fade takes 10 seconds of evolving, you have a situation were skulks get to their destination 3 times faster, but fades only get there 1.6 times faster. As the amount by which they are faster decreases, the benefit at all becomes more and more questionable.

    If a shift allows you to actively and <b>meaningfully</b> (no skulks) attack a location 3-4 times faster, then it may be a game winner. Anything less than that, and it is just busy work for the commander in order to get some useless min maxing going on.

    Also, I invite you to theory-craft as well. Lord knows it is far more relevant than anecdotal evidence. Wow, <b>you </b>think that <b>you </b>used all <b>your </b>skill and tact and managed to overcome an enemy which would have certainly defeated <b>your </b>team without <b>you</b>? Wow, how impartial and empirical.
  • piratedavepiratedave Join Date: 2012-03-10 Member: 148561Members
    HERES A SIMPLE SOLUTION !!!!!

    make aliens research their own abilities

    The alien commander should not be researching leap, blink, bilebomb .... let the players spend P.res on that. (in the evolve menu ... on the right side will be abilities that you can spend Pres to research) and now with all that T'res, the alien commander should be spending it on crags, shifts, shades, and on the abilities that those structures have.
  • ImbalanxdImbalanxd Join Date: 2011-06-15 Member: 104581Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1979486:date=Sep 18 2012, 12:19 PM:name=piratedave)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (piratedave @ Sep 18 2012, 12:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1979486"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->HERES A SIMPLE SOLUTION !!!!!

    make aliens research their own abilities

    The alien commander should not be researching leap, blink, bilebomb .... let the players spend P.res on that. (in the evolve menu ... on the right side will be abilities that you can spend Pres to research) and now with all that T'res, the alien commander should be spending it on crags, shifts, shades, and on the abilities that those structures have.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Ok. How long do I have to wait before I create the "Alien commanders need to research more upgrades" thread?
  • piratedavepiratedave Join Date: 2012-03-10 Member: 148561Members
    edited September 2012
    <!--quoteo(post=1979487:date=Sep 18 2012, 03:20 AM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Sep 18 2012, 03:20 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1979487"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Ok. How long do I have to wait before I create the "Alien commanders need to research more upgrades" thread?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    how many times have you heard "Commander we need bilebomb" "commander can you get us blink", does this not sound familiar to the old days of NS1 ??? "Commander can you drop me a shotgun" "wheres my jetpack"

    do you see where i am going with this ????

    this would also solve that pesky lifeform explosion problem. Some players will forgo all skulk abilities and research fade abilities instead, others will get leap first and then blink later. You are always going to have players who prefer different classes, what about those early lerk players who want the first upgrade to be spores ? or those gorge only players who want bilebomb 1st rather than leap ? Its a stupid system we have now ... and the only reason we have it is exactly the reason you would make a new thread .... because the alien commander needs more stuff to do ...

    this solution perfectly solves the problem you were bringing up in this thread, that alien commanders are saving up res and are prioritizing ability upgrades over structures and structure abilities. So i came up with the logical solution : remove ability upgrades from the commander and presto ! the alien commander will spend res on structures again.
  • _Necro__Necro_ Join Date: 2011-02-15 Member: 81895Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited September 2012
    <!--quoteo(post=1979450:date=Sep 18 2012, 10:59 AM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Sep 18 2012, 10:59 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1979450"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->When playing against marine teams that lose fortified locations to skulks, then yes, the tactic may have merit. However, since that limits it to use only during large influx of brand new players who have never before used a mouse, I still find its use limited. Explain to me what use it is to send wave after wave of skulks against marine fortifications? Why is it better to send skulks in from west junction than it is from sub sector? The travel time of a skulk with leap and celerity from sub sector to west junction is about 4 or 5 seconds. Is that worth it? Especially when attacking in waves? What is the benefit?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Mhh... so we disagree on the power of skulk-rushs? Have you seen the wasabi-cup finals? That game in summit where ARC was res locked but managed to kill the marine base power 3 times only by skulk rushs?
    You know that rounds with the hive near the marine base can lead to terrible powerful skulk-rushs? Imagine what would happen if aliens spawned even closer? Sorry, but beside your theory-crafting I know, how powerful a skulk rush is. And that no "fortification" of marines will stand one for long (at least till sentries get buffed again) as long as the skulks spawn near enough to the target.

    I won't get into more detail why it is often wrong to waste res on whips to defend the shift or why you don't need to buy higher lifeform-eggs at a shift. I also will ignore your tries to insult me by your sarcastic imputation that I think my anecdotal game-experience is more worth than your theory-crafting.

    I'm just saying that I have used this tactic and it worked. You will not succeed in explaining me why it can't work. And obviously you won't try it your self. So lets just agree to disagree.
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