The FPS where the scoreboard doesn't display the kills and deaths are so great. It's really there where you can see great action and teamplay. I don't say you can't see it elsewhere, it's just that removing that info ingame really help on not focusing on personal stats.
FPS without k/d displayed you say?
Well we can simply say : TF2. TF2 is meaning to be fun (well it's a game), the less we have k/d in the game, the more the players are thinking about teamplay and fun. Not tracking death and kills also help players to do heroic actions like suiciding for the good of the team (because yeah, sometimes suiciding can be beneficial, not for us, but for <b>US</b>, the team). And having the K/D in the game just kind of stop that kind of things for a lot of players, it can be unconscious, you never feel it but it's there.
<b>It also make all the servers A LOT more friendly</b>, a lot of tension is added with the display of K/D, and some players will rage/troll/flame others just for that, well there is jerks everywhere, but displaying only the score help getting a nice atmosphere and filtering out that kind of comportment. It's also healthy for nooby players, they don't have that pressure above their head and still can play with less pressure and more fun. Especially in a game like NS2.
TF2 is widely popular and was created this way, so it's not really relevant with NS2 who is a lot more "niche market" and more difficult to handle. Well let's take the example of Insurgency then. That FPS who don't even show when you kill an enemy (normally), and never show how many kills and death you have, only the score you did for the team. The people focus a lot more on objectives and never interject others people about their performances (well at least A LOT less than other games showing K/D, and when they do, it's because you are not playing the objectives enough). It's also a lot more "immersive" without that much information. And what about Red orchestra? Same kind of things, the most important is the team, no matter what, and dying can be part of the job.
What I want to say is : no, K/D is not essential ; and yes, games that do not implement it have a way way better ingame atmosphere, and are a lot more enjoyable. Some people play games for competition, but others just want to enjoy the game and not always think about performances. And that kind of stats is simply killing the spirit of games (just look at global stats in several games, a lot of players now just think... stats and KDR!). I am sure that the dev team prefer to have an enjoyable game and nice to play in every possible way.
<!--quoteo(post=1980081:date=Sep 19 2012, 11:00 AM:name=Ceri)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ceri @ Sep 19 2012, 11:00 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1980081"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I had several games as a commander where i had the feeling that my faction had an advantage. One reason for loosing some of this game were that some players didnt listen to commander orders at the point where they had shotguns/upgrades/jetpacks/grenade launchers/ exos.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It is public. Some players do not listen to commander orders. The exos in particular commonly causes marine losses, because noobs quickly grab an exo and start adventuring (because AHMAGERD IM A GIANT ROBOBOTO!), which causes you to lose your base. This has very little to do with K/D. The competitive high-K/D guys are usually the ones who go for jet-shotgun and actually try and keep the team alive. You can also beacon these guys back when needed, unlike the exo guys. Jetpack/shotgun is usually the better choice, if you have skill. Also, it is possible, that there actually were skilled players who decided to disregard your orders. This can often happen, when they have lost their faith in their commander and have stopped caring about the round (due to seeing it is doomed).
Off-topic, but: Personally I often find myself disregarding commanders that do not support their team (for instance by failing to drop any medpacks throughout a game) and refuse to communicate with the team. New commanders I will advice, experienced commanders I will follow and support and, well, commanders that do not have a clue and will not admit it I will quite often disregard. I've had comms blaming me for assassinating several alien harvesters during first few minutes, because "I was not doing as I was told", which was "turtle up in double res and wait for inevitable".
While I keep thinking that, showing the K/D or not is highly irrelevant in comparison to problems like the useless score-system, this post was the most intelligent and mature in the whole thread. Thanks for this.
Nobody cares if you have a low KDR, you can be a builder... so you can still be useful.
As far as you claiming KDR doesn't matter... sounds like you are jealous of more skilled players and want to steal away their sunshine. Too bad. K/D is here to stay... since unfortunately for you... it matters quite a lot.
Every kill your team gets gains you map control and slows down the aliens. If you think that doesn't matter then LOL.
Displaying it on the scoreboard is useful in many ways. Especially to noobs who can see their KDR go up over time and see their own improvement. It shows the commander their most effective players, and allows them to dictate things. It also shows new players who to watch and learn from. Take it out, and there is no gauge for where you stand on the team. I know you think that "working as a team" is the only thing that matters... the fact is that players with the highest kills are likely to know the most about the game. They also contribute more to the team with kills than sitting around building. It takes 0 skill to sit in one spot and hold e for the comm. It takes no skill to kill cysts, it takes no skill to hold mouse1 to kill structures (But it takes skill to get to them).
So really, the most important thing for winning in this game is KILLS. Whoa whoa me oh my. That can't be!!!! This isn't a shooter after all...
Sorry to say... but the top fraggers are commodities, and one of the most important factors for a teams victory. If you have a team full of kids who love to work together but can't aim AT ALL... you lose. Plan and simple. Stop whining. If you think the scoreboard ruins this gameplay then don't look at it :). If UWE does for some off reason decide to take out K/D I will likely switch to only playing NS1. To competitive gamers KDR matters a lot and we don't generally like playing games that dont think it matters.
You don't need me to tell you... there are likely 6 more pages behind me (that I didn't read) that say similar things.
Yes, the cold hard truth is that KD does matter. It matters more than anything else. This isn't NS1, and things have changed. Hostile encounters used to be few and far between, and combatants were usually heavily prepared for the encounter, and that preparation is what mattered most. Now its a record if an alien hasn't attacked a marine by the 15th second.
It's COD with structures man, of course KD is going to matter.
While it might soothe the ego, it mainly only causes easy targets for ridicule for when the team is doing poorly. And we all know K/D ratio does not contain any direct relevance to anything teamwork related. Especially since NS2 does NOT count assist kills. It isn't even directly related to points. You can be on top of the scoreboard with 0 kills and a boatload of building.
Different incarnations of NS1 took the K/D away (I can't recall if the last build did), but I remember it having a positive effect for the server in general.
TF2 seems like a poor comparison. It's a casual game, it's easy and simple to play. NS2 is more on the DOTA end of the spectrum (but perhaps not that hardcore). You know what else would make NS easier to play and have more mass appeal? Get rid of commanders, resources, and just release NS2 combat. Anyone remember how that turned out for NS1? People will take the easy route if you give them one. In the the end it leads to a less satisfying game.
TF2 is a poor comparison because it shows kills and deaths, and they're just as important as in any other game if you're not playing 32 person instant respawn goldrush
<!--quoteo(post=1980397:date=Sep 19 2012, 03:14 PM:name=dethovu)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (dethovu @ Sep 19 2012, 03:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1980397"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->K/D ratio absolutely needs to be removed.
While it might soothe the ego, it mainly only causes easy targets for ridicule for when the team is doing poorly. And we all know K/D ratio does not contain any direct relevance to anything teamwork related. Especially since NS2 does NOT count assist kills. It isn't even directly related to points. You can be on top of the scoreboard with 0 kills and a boatload of building.
Different incarnations of NS1 took the K/D away (I can't recall if the last build did), but I remember it having a positive effect for the server in general.
Take it away. Makes for a better team experience.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What makes a good team isn't who builds the most, or who rushes into enemy territory like a hero (More than likely stupid than teamplay). Everyone wants to be rewarded for doing a "good thing". The sad fact is that there are different levels of usefulness that can be achieved in different game encounters. You could build 5 resource towers, equaling 50 res, but you didn't have to think or do anything. You, on the other hand, could kill a fade (Costing aliens 50 res) which takes a hell of a lot more skill, and will end up saving your team res on top of it (Your team wont have to rebuy equipment or place lost RT's due to fade harassment). You want the scoreboard to reflect that you did just as much "good" as the guy who killed the fade by himself??? ROFL.... so sad dude. So, this simple example shows how getting kills is better in multiple ways. You want to remove the only thing that shows the team who has contributed in such ways? This thread doesn't deserve 7 pages. In fact, this thread is downright pathetic. I won't insult the original poster... but he may be new to first person shooters it seems....
<!--quoteo(post=1980253:date=Sep 19 2012, 05:26 PM:name=.ADHd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (.ADHd @ Sep 19 2012, 05:26 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1980253"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Every kill your team gets gains you map control and slows down the aliens. If you think that doesn't matter then LOL.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That's right, and nobody is arguing there. Killing is important, displaying it, is not. It's two <b>totally</b> <b>different</b> things.
Well I can understand that it can be to some persons, like the commander, but we are trying to make a better game there for everyone, so why not think about the better alternative.
<!--quoteo(post=1980253:date=Sep 19 2012, 05:26 PM:name=.ADHd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (.ADHd @ Sep 19 2012, 05:26 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1980253"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You don't need me to tell you... there are likely 6 more pages behind me (that I didn't read) that say similar things.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Oh, you know that it says similar things, without even reading them... hell yeah. Please do yourself a favor then. It's that kind of posts that 's ruining the debates. You are not defending your life here, just trying to make the game better. There is no point of arguing if everyone is putting their heart and soul into defending something stupidly without even thinking about the pros and cons of the proposition, and even listening to the others. We could just lock that topic, it would be the same.
Imbalanxd > No, the cold hard truth is that KD does not matter. Yay, bring it on! \o/ Sling_Blade > Have you even read my post? internetexplorer > Have you ever played TF2?
Now I would love to see what the devs are thinking about it, and how they are going to deal with it. Even thought it must be hard for them to filter <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=121186&view=findpost&p=1980106" target="_blank">good</a> and bad posts explaining pros and cons.
Hey, all through this thread I've been wondering this:
In which games and in which situations have you guys had negative experiences with K/D? I've never experienced any such, but then again, might be I've been playing different games. Might be that I broke my online-FPS-teeth with Q1:DM and Q1:TF, and abuse back then was rare or I just don't remember it. Might be that since I'm pretty competitive in any game that I just look at this thing completely differently.
Then again, I've never noticed any abuse about K/D even in modern and more mainstrem games like BFBC2... So again, how common is it? Is this just an observation bias thing where experienced players ignore any idiotic K/D abuse and less experienced players tend to notice even the slightest hints and allegations of disrespect and respond more strongly? I mean, sure, there always are some retards on the internets, but ... where can I find this K/D abuse problem some people are claiming is pretty serious?
EDIT: Also, different cultures could affect the amount and type of idiotism on servers, so that might be relevant. I myself come from Finland so I've always mostly frequented european servers.
<!--quoteo(post=1980494:date=Sep 19 2012, 07:46 PM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ Sep 19 2012, 07:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1980494"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->TF2 is a poor comparison because it shows kills and deaths, and they're just as important as in any other game if you're not playing 32 person instant respawn goldrush<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> No it doesn't, it just shows scores. <!--quoteo(post=1980479:date=Sep 19 2012, 07:08 PM:name=Sling_Blade)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sling_Blade @ Sep 19 2012, 07:08 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1980479"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->TF2 seems like a poor comparison. It's a casual game, it's easy and simple to play. NS2 is more on the DOTA end of the spectrum (but perhaps not that hardcore). You know what else would make NS easier to play and have more mass appeal? Get rid of commanders, resources, and just release NS2 combat. Anyone remember how that turned out for NS1? People will take the easy route if you give them one. In the the end it leads to a less satisfying game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> TF2 is actually a great comparison because it is a role based game. In TF2 there are support classes and roles and a person's score reflects how well they are performing at their role. The same goes for NS2. Someone might be welding an exo or repairing, but stop and try to go for a kill instead just because they think k/d is important.
<!--quoteo(post=1980635:date=Sep 20 2012, 04:28 AM:name=Squirreli_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squirreli_ @ Sep 20 2012, 04:28 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1980635"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Hey, all through this thread I've been wondering this:
In which games and in which situations have you guys had negative experiences with K/D? I've never experienced any such, but then again, might be I've been playing different games. Might be that I broke my online-FPS-teeth with Q1:DM and Q1:TF, and abuse back then was rare or I just don't remember it. Might be that since I'm pretty competitive in any game that I just look at this thing completely differently.
Then again, I've never noticed any abuse about K/D even in modern and more mainstrem games like BFBC2... So again, how common is it? Is this just an observation bias thing where experienced players ignore any idiotic K/D abuse and less experienced players tend to notice even the slightest hints and allegations of disrespect and respond more strongly? I mean, sure, there always are some retards on the internets, but ... where can I find this K/D abuse problem some people are claiming is pretty serious?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Call of Duty. They really glamorize K/D by displaying the calculated ratio on the scoreboard and then sorting the global leaderboard by it (if I recall correctly). I'm not sure if they still do this though. People stop trying to perform the objectives of the map/gamemode and instead focus on preserving or increasing their k/d.
<!--quoteo(post=1980639:date=Sep 20 2012, 11:31 AM:name=Camron)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Camron @ Sep 20 2012, 11:31 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1980639"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In TF2 there are support classes and roles and a person's score reflects how well they are performing at their role. The same goes for NS2. Someone might be welding an exo or repairing, but stop and try to go for a kill instead just because they think k/d is important.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This argument is easy to turn around: Someone might be attacking and pressuring the alien team, but because of lack of K/D might try to go for soft welder or building scores because they think score is important.
What these both fictional examples have in common is: People who don't understand the game will often do the wrong choice.
<!--quoteo(post=1980635:date=Sep 20 2012, 04:28 AM:name=Squirreli_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squirreli_ @ Sep 20 2012, 04:28 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1980635"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Hey, all through this thread I've been wondering this:
In which games and in which situations have you guys had negative experiences with K/D? I've never experienced any such, but then again, might be I've been playing different games. Might be that I broke my online-FPS-teeth with Q1:DM and Q1:TF, and abuse back then was rare or I just don't remember it. Might be that since I'm pretty competitive in any game that I just look at this thing completely differently.
Then again, I've never noticed any abuse about K/D even in modern and more mainstrem games like BFBC2... So again, how common is it? Is this just an observation bias thing where experienced players ignore any idiotic K/D abuse and less experienced players tend to notice even the slightest hints and allegations of disrespect and respond more strongly? I mean, sure, there always are some retards on the internets, but ... where can I find this K/D abuse problem some people are claiming is pretty serious?
EDIT: Also, different cultures could affect the amount and type of idiotism on servers, so that might be relevant. I myself come from Finland so I've always mostly frequented european servers.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm an NA player that plays almost exclusively on the NA servers. I, like you, have also never seen this K/D abuse that some find so rampant. I've posted a couple times in this thread, but you've written my thoughts nicer than I have.
I just don't see any benefit from removing kills and deaths, but I do see a cost in the form of less information that players have come to expect from the scoreboard.
<!--quoteo(post=1980645:date=Sep 20 2012, 04:44 AM:name=Squirreli_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squirreli_ @ Sep 20 2012, 04:44 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1980645"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This argument is easy to turn around: Someone might be attacking and pressuring the alien team, but because of lack of K/D might try to go for soft welder or building scores because they think score is important.
What these both fictional examples have in common is: People who don't understand the game will often do the wrong choice.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Kills would add a certain number to the score (like in TF2). It works very well.
<!--quoteo(post=1980656:date=Sep 20 2012, 12:04 PM:name=Camron)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Camron @ Sep 20 2012, 12:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1980656"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Kills would add a certain number to the score (like in TF2). It works very well.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Kills do add a certain number to the score right now too. They also add +1 to the kills. It too works very well!
I guess what I am trying to say here is that I do not agree with your statements and find that in the very least they need more explanations ;)
K:D is an important thing to have available to the playerbase.
It allows you to know which teammates are worth saving. Which can aim. Which can play a FPS Half-decently, and are therefore worthy of you dropping TRes to outfit and protect. Principally and obviously this serves the commanders, but i'd even say it benefits the players themselves.
I can conjure up a slew of scenarios, but if i'm only able to influence player A or player B, and player A is a 3 to 1 KD while player B is a 1 to 7 KD, i'm obviously more inclined to (for obvious desire of winning) help out player A.
Frankly, the argument that KD serves no purpose would only apply or be valid if the game were a-la Starcraft, a true RTS where each unit had limited specific value and was not a person actually playing a First Person Shooter.
The fact that some people do with a LMG what other people can not do with an Exosuit defines a core element of Natural Selection, and as it stands, K:D is the only way to judge that ability in-game.
Also, just to say it on the record; people who decry K:D as a nonimportant, invalid statistic are generally just upset at the concept of people who perform better than they do regularly. Facts of life, been that way since the release of anything competitive. It's like claiming keeping a record of bout wins isnt important in sports. I'm really not even sure the subject of the thread is even legitimate. I Suspect trolls.
<!--quoteo(post=1980749:date=Sep 20 2012, 03:48 PM:name=ColtColt)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ColtColt @ Sep 20 2012, 03:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1980749"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also, just to say it on the record; people who decry K:D as a nonimportant, invalid statistic are generally just upset at the concept of people who perform better than they do regularly. Facts of life, been that way since the release of anything competitive. It's like claiming keeping a record of bout wins isnt important in sports. I'm really not even sure the subject of the thread is even legitimate. I Suspect trolls.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Blablabla... once again, don't bring that up, it's so freaking <b>stupid</b>. It's even more sad that you were having a real post before that. The troll is not the one you think it is.
<!--quoteo(post=1980749:date=Sep 20 2012, 03:48 PM:name=ColtColt)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ColtColt @ Sep 20 2012, 03:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1980749"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It allows you to know which teammates are worth saving. Which can aim. Which can play a FPS Half-decently, and are therefore worthy of you dropping TRes to outfit and protect. Principally and obviously this serves the commanders, but i'd even say it benefits the players themselves.
I can conjure up a slew of scenarios, but if i'm only able to influence player A or player B, and player A is a 3 to 1 KD while player B is a 1 to 7 KD, i'm obviously more inclined to (for obvious desire of winning) help out player A.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> And why is that? This is totally biased, the player could have done a lot of things very clever and played very well for himself and the team while having an awful ratio. And I am not even talking about the code of NS2 attributing the kill to a noob guy who have possibly just hit the alien with the one last bullet of his LMG. And to assure you, I do the same as you do, helping players that are more "valuable" for the team, but basing that judgment with the K/D ratio is biased, I do it on nicknames, because this is usually more consistent.
And no I don't care about other performances, I nearly always have been on the top 3 of FPSs, and I know that some people are just better than others and I will never ever have their skills. I don't care about that, but some others do, and usually that people is not those not caring about K/D ratio, but generally the ones basing everything on it. And I link to <a href='index.php?act=findpost&pid=1980106'>my other post</a> where I explain WHY there is advantages to that. Atmosphere and gameplay on that kind of servers (ie: not caring about K/D) are way way better than others. You should read it (and the topic) before calling trolls.
<!--quoteo(post=1980753:date=Sep 20 2012, 05:04 PM:name=Regnareb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Regnareb @ Sep 20 2012, 05:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1980753"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Blablabla... once again, don't bring that up, it's so freaking <b>stupid</b>. It's even more sad that you were having a real post before that. The troll is not the one you think it is.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I smell constructive criticism and intelligent explanations here! Best counter-arguments.
<!--quoteo(post=1980753:date=Sep 20 2012, 05:04 PM:name=Regnareb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Regnareb @ Sep 20 2012, 05:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1980753"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And why is that? This is totally biased, the player could have done a lot of things very clever and played very well for himself and the team while having an awful ratio. And I am not even talking about the code of NS2 attributing the kill to a noob guy who have possibly just hit the alien with the one last bullet of his LMG. And to assure you, I do the same as you do, helping players that are more "valuable" for the team, but basing that judgment with the K/D ratio is biased, I do it on nicknames, because this is usually more consistent.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How is this basing player skill estimates on nicknames working for you? Does a "killer 666" play better than "super ghost"? Wtf? Numerology or magic next?
Also, people don't base estimates only on K/D, unless they are complete retards, but it is a useful tool. Sure, you see someone constantly doing useful things, you tend to agree that the guy is useful even if their K/D isn't on the top of the list. No need to be an idiot? I think it has been explained over and over again by proponents of K/D that it is an imperfect tool that is not to be taken as the only truth about a players worth?
<!--quoteo(post=1980753:date=Sep 20 2012, 05:04 PM:name=Regnareb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Regnareb @ Sep 20 2012, 05:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1980753"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And no I don't care about other performances, I nearly always have been on the top 3 of FPSs, and I know that some people are just better than others and I will never ever have their skills. I don't care about that, but some others don't, and usually it's not from people not caring about K/D ratio but from people basing everything on it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
When it comes to assigning tasks as a commander, there are two types. Team Tasks: Tasks best accomplished by many people using brute force. Rambo Tasks: Tasks best accomplished by a single person using finesse and often stealth.
You need to know who can kill multiple opponents if the need arises, and who can get killed multiple times if the need arises.
Inb4 making it an optional setting for commanders only. Jesus christ this whole ###### game is going to be optional soon enough if some of you get your way.
Obvious troll thread is troll. There isn't any way to justify taking K/D out of a <b><i><u>first person shooter.</u></i></b>
UWE even admits they made this game to be more of an FPS than an RTS. What do you do in an FPS? You kill stuff, and die. Seems like a game that is based off killing and dying should track those things?
This is my last post. Thread has gotten stale and boring... were beating dead horsies, and playing broken records. Please close thread.
Instead of Kills/Deaths, why not just show damage? Show total of damage done and taken? Can break it down to damage to lifeforms vs structures. Not sure if possible.
That way can get credit for putting three clips into the Onos, even though someone else gets the last shot in. Or for the skulk killing res nodes instead of Marines, is still being helpful to its team.
Damage taken might be high because you die alot, or you could be an epic Fade that never dies. But you can see how much you've survived/adsorbed.
<!--quoteo(post=1980775:date=Sep 20 2012, 10:55 AM:name=.ADHd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (.ADHd @ Sep 20 2012, 10:55 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1980775"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Obvious troll thread is troll. There isn't any way to justify taking K/D out of a <b><i><u>first person shooter.</u></i></b>
UWE even admits they made this game to be more of an FPS than an RTS. What do you do in an FPS? You kill stuff, and die. Seems like a game that is based off killing and dying should track those things?
This is my last post. Thread has gotten stale and boring... were beating dead horsies, and playing broken records. Please close thread.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> No, you don't just kill stuff and die. You provide support(heal/repair/buff/supply/assist/command) and complete objectives (CTF, capture/defend a point, plant/defuse). The score number will reflect your contributions accordingly. Since NS2 has the score number and sorts the scoreboard by it, I don't really mind that K/D is shown, but I can see why other people are concerned as it may be enough to create a bad teamplay experience for them. <!--quoteo(post=1981028:date=Sep 20 2012, 06:13 PM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ Sep 20 2012, 06:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1981028"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><a href="http://www.scalari.net/wp-content/tf2score.jpg" target="_blank">????</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It only shows your own. You can't see those stats for other players.
Comments
FPS without k/d displayed you say?
Well we can simply say : TF2.
TF2 is meaning to be fun (well it's a game), the less we have k/d in the game, the more the players are thinking about teamplay and fun.
Not tracking death and kills also help players to do heroic actions like suiciding for the good of the team (because yeah, sometimes suiciding can be beneficial, not for us, but for <b>US</b>, the team). And having the K/D in the game just kind of stop that kind of things for a lot of players, it can be unconscious, you never feel it but it's there.
<b>It also make all the servers A LOT more friendly</b>, a lot of tension is added with the display of K/D, and some players will rage/troll/flame others just for that, well there is jerks everywhere, but displaying only the score help getting a nice atmosphere and filtering out that kind of comportment.
It's also healthy for nooby players, they don't have that pressure above their head and still can play with less pressure and more fun. Especially in a game like NS2.
TF2 is widely popular and was created this way, so it's not really relevant with NS2 who is a lot more "niche market" and more difficult to handle. Well let's take the example of Insurgency then.
That FPS who don't even show when you kill an enemy (normally), and never show how many kills and death you have, only the score you did for the team. The people focus a lot more on objectives and never interject others people about their performances (well at least A LOT less than other games showing K/D, and when they do, it's because you are not playing the objectives enough). It's also a lot more "immersive" without that much information.
And what about Red orchestra? Same kind of things, the most important is the team, no matter what, and dying can be part of the job.
What I want to say is : no, K/D is not essential ; and yes, games that do not implement it have a way way better ingame atmosphere, and are a lot more enjoyable. Some people play games for competition, but others just want to enjoy the game and not always think about performances. And that kind of stats is simply killing the spirit of games (just look at global stats in several games, a lot of players now just think... stats and KDR!).
I am sure that the dev team prefer to have an enjoyable game and nice to play in every possible way.
It is public. Some players do not listen to commander orders. The exos in particular commonly causes marine losses, because noobs quickly grab an exo and start adventuring (because AHMAGERD IM A GIANT ROBOBOTO!), which causes you to lose your base. This has very little to do with K/D. The competitive high-K/D guys are usually the ones who go for jet-shotgun and actually try and keep the team alive. You can also beacon these guys back when needed, unlike the exo guys. Jetpack/shotgun is usually the better choice, if you have skill. Also, it is possible, that there actually were skilled players who decided to disregard your orders. This can often happen, when they have lost their faith in their commander and have stopped caring about the round (due to seeing it is doomed).
Off-topic, but: Personally I often find myself disregarding commanders that do not support their team (for instance by failing to drop any medpacks throughout a game) and refuse to communicate with the team. New commanders I will advice, experienced commanders I will follow and support and, well, commanders that do not have a clue and will not admit it I will quite often disregard. I've had comms blaming me for assassinating several alien harvesters during first few minutes, because "I was not doing as I was told", which was "turtle up in double res and wait for inevitable".
thumbs up!
While I keep thinking that, showing the K/D or not is highly irrelevant in comparison to problems like the useless score-system, this post was the most intelligent and mature in the whole thread. Thanks for this.
As far as you claiming KDR doesn't matter... sounds like you are jealous of more skilled players and want to steal away their sunshine. Too bad. K/D is here to stay... since unfortunately for you... it matters quite a lot.
Every kill your team gets gains you map control and slows down the aliens. If you think that doesn't matter then LOL.
Displaying it on the scoreboard is useful in many ways. Especially to noobs who can see their KDR go up over time and see their own improvement. It shows the commander their most effective players, and allows them to dictate things. It also shows new players who to watch and learn from. Take it out, and there is no gauge for where you stand on the team. I know you think that "working as a team" is the only thing that matters... the fact is that players with the highest kills are likely to know the most about the game. They also contribute more to the team with kills than sitting around building. It takes 0 skill to sit in one spot and hold e for the comm. It takes no skill to kill cysts, it takes no skill to hold mouse1 to kill structures (But it takes skill to get to them).
So really, the most important thing for winning in this game is KILLS. Whoa whoa me oh my. That can't be!!!! This isn't a shooter after all...
Sorry to say... but the top fraggers are commodities, and one of the most important factors for a teams victory. If you have a team full of kids who love to work together but can't aim AT ALL... you lose. Plan and simple. Stop whining. If you think the scoreboard ruins this gameplay then don't look at it :). If UWE does for some off reason decide to take out K/D I will likely switch to only playing NS1. To competitive gamers KDR matters a lot and we don't generally like playing games that dont think it matters.
You don't need me to tell you... there are likely 6 more pages behind me (that I didn't read) that say similar things.
It's COD with structures man, of course KD is going to matter.
While it might soothe the ego, it mainly only causes easy targets for ridicule for when the team is doing poorly. And we all know K/D ratio does not contain any direct relevance to anything teamwork related. Especially since NS2 does NOT count assist kills. It isn't even directly related to points. You can be on top of the scoreboard with 0 kills and a boatload of building.
Different incarnations of NS1 took the K/D away (I can't recall if the last build did), but I remember it having a positive effect for the server in general.
Take it away. Makes for a better team experience.
While it might soothe the ego, it mainly only causes easy targets for ridicule for when the team is doing poorly. And we all know K/D ratio does not contain any direct relevance to anything teamwork related. Especially since NS2 does NOT count assist kills. It isn't even directly related to points. You can be on top of the scoreboard with 0 kills and a boatload of building.
Different incarnations of NS1 took the K/D away (I can't recall if the last build did), but I remember it having a positive effect for the server in general.
Take it away. Makes for a better team experience.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What makes a good team isn't who builds the most, or who rushes into enemy territory like a hero (More than likely stupid than teamplay). Everyone wants to be rewarded for doing a "good thing". The sad fact is that there are different levels of usefulness that can be achieved in different game encounters. You could build 5 resource towers, equaling 50 res, but you didn't have to think or do anything. You, on the other hand, could kill a fade (Costing aliens 50 res) which takes a hell of a lot more skill, and will end up saving your team res on top of it (Your team wont have to rebuy equipment or place lost RT's due to fade harassment). You want the scoreboard to reflect that you did just as much "good" as the guy who killed the fade by himself??? ROFL.... so sad dude. So, this simple example shows how getting kills is better in multiple ways. You want to remove the only thing that shows the team who has contributed in such ways? This thread doesn't deserve 7 pages. In fact, this thread is downright pathetic. I won't insult the original poster... but he may be new to first person shooters it seems....
That's right, and nobody is arguing there. Killing is important, displaying it, is not. It's two <b>totally</b> <b>different</b> things.
Well I can understand that it can be to some persons, like the commander, but we are trying to make a better game there for everyone, so why not think about the better alternative.
<!--quoteo(post=1980253:date=Sep 19 2012, 05:26 PM:name=.ADHd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (.ADHd @ Sep 19 2012, 05:26 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1980253"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You don't need me to tell you... there are likely 6 more pages behind me (that I didn't read) that say similar things.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh, you know that it says similar things, without even reading them... hell yeah. Please do yourself a favor then.
It's that kind of posts that 's ruining the debates. You are not defending your life here, just trying to make the game better. There is no point of arguing if everyone is putting their heart and soul into defending something stupidly without even thinking about the pros and cons of the proposition, and even listening to the others.
We could just lock that topic, it would be the same.
Imbalanxd > No, the cold hard truth is that KD does not matter.
Yay, bring it on! \o/
Sling_Blade > Have you even read my post?
internetexplorer > Have you ever played TF2?
Now I would love to see what the devs are thinking about it, and how they are going to deal with it. Even thought it must be hard for them to filter <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=121186&view=findpost&p=1980106" target="_blank">good</a> and bad posts explaining pros and cons.
In which games and in which situations have you guys had negative experiences with K/D? I've never experienced any such, but then again, might be I've been playing different games. Might be that I broke my online-FPS-teeth with Q1:DM and Q1:TF, and abuse back then was rare or I just don't remember it. Might be that since I'm pretty competitive in any game that I just look at this thing completely differently.
Then again, I've never noticed any abuse about K/D even in modern and more mainstrem games like BFBC2... So again, how common is it? Is this just an observation bias thing where experienced players ignore any idiotic K/D abuse and less experienced players tend to notice even the slightest hints and allegations of disrespect and respond more strongly? I mean, sure, there always are some retards on the internets, but ... where can I find this K/D abuse problem some people are claiming is pretty serious?
EDIT: Also, different cultures could affect the amount and type of idiotism on servers, so that might be relevant. I myself come from Finland so I've always mostly frequented european servers.
No it doesn't, it just shows scores.
<!--quoteo(post=1980479:date=Sep 19 2012, 07:08 PM:name=Sling_Blade)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sling_Blade @ Sep 19 2012, 07:08 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1980479"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->TF2 seems like a poor comparison. It's a casual game, it's easy and simple to play. NS2 is more on the DOTA end of the spectrum (but perhaps not that hardcore). You know what else would make NS easier to play and have more mass appeal? Get rid of commanders, resources, and just release NS2 combat. Anyone remember how that turned out for NS1? People will take the easy route if you give them one. In the the end it leads to a less satisfying game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
TF2 is actually a great comparison because it is a role based game. In TF2 there are support classes and roles and a person's score reflects how well they are performing at their role. The same goes for NS2. Someone might be welding an exo or repairing, but stop and try to go for a kill instead just because they think k/d is important.
In which games and in which situations have you guys had negative experiences with K/D? I've never experienced any such, but then again, might be I've been playing different games. Might be that I broke my online-FPS-teeth with Q1:DM and Q1:TF, and abuse back then was rare or I just don't remember it. Might be that since I'm pretty competitive in any game that I just look at this thing completely differently.
Then again, I've never noticed any abuse about K/D even in modern and more mainstrem games like BFBC2... So again, how common is it? Is this just an observation bias thing where experienced players ignore any idiotic K/D abuse and less experienced players tend to notice even the slightest hints and allegations of disrespect and respond more strongly? I mean, sure, there always are some retards on the internets, but ... where can I find this K/D abuse problem some people are claiming is pretty serious?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Call of Duty. They really glamorize K/D by displaying the calculated ratio on the scoreboard and then sorting the global leaderboard by it (if I recall correctly). I'm not sure if they still do this though. People stop trying to perform the objectives of the map/gamemode and instead focus on preserving or increasing their k/d.
This argument is easy to turn around: Someone might be attacking and pressuring the alien team, but because of lack of K/D might try to go for soft welder or building scores because they think score is important.
What these both fictional examples have in common is: People who don't understand the game will often do the wrong choice.
In which games and in which situations have you guys had negative experiences with K/D? I've never experienced any such, but then again, might be I've been playing different games. Might be that I broke my online-FPS-teeth with Q1:DM and Q1:TF, and abuse back then was rare or I just don't remember it. Might be that since I'm pretty competitive in any game that I just look at this thing completely differently.
Then again, I've never noticed any abuse about K/D even in modern and more mainstrem games like BFBC2... So again, how common is it? Is this just an observation bias thing where experienced players ignore any idiotic K/D abuse and less experienced players tend to notice even the slightest hints and allegations of disrespect and respond more strongly? I mean, sure, there always are some retards on the internets, but ... where can I find this K/D abuse problem some people are claiming is pretty serious?
EDIT: Also, different cultures could affect the amount and type of idiotism on servers, so that might be relevant. I myself come from Finland so I've always mostly frequented european servers.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm an NA player that plays almost exclusively on the NA servers. I, like you, have also never seen this K/D abuse that some find so rampant. I've posted a couple times in this thread, but you've written my thoughts nicer than I have.
I just don't see any benefit from removing kills and deaths, but I do see a cost in the form of less information that players have come to expect from the scoreboard.
What these both fictional examples have in common is: People who don't understand the game will often do the wrong choice.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Kills would add a certain number to the score (like in TF2). It works very well.
Kills do add a certain number to the score right now too. They also add +1 to the kills. It too works very well!
I guess what I am trying to say here is that I do not agree with your statements and find that in the very least they need more explanations ;)
It allows you to know which teammates are worth saving. Which can aim. Which can play a FPS Half-decently, and are therefore worthy of you dropping TRes to outfit and protect. Principally and obviously this serves the commanders, but i'd even say it benefits the players themselves.
I can conjure up a slew of scenarios, but if i'm only able to influence player A or player B, and player A is a 3 to 1 KD while player B is a 1 to 7 KD, i'm obviously more inclined to (for obvious desire of winning) help out player A.
Frankly, the argument that KD serves no purpose would only apply or be valid if the game were a-la Starcraft, a true RTS where each unit had limited specific value and was not a person actually playing a First Person Shooter.
The fact that some people do with a LMG what other people can not do with an Exosuit defines a core element of Natural Selection, and as it stands, K:D is the only way to judge that ability in-game.
Also, just to say it on the record; people who decry K:D as a nonimportant, invalid statistic are generally just upset at the concept of people who perform better than they do regularly. Facts of life, been that way since the release of anything competitive. It's like claiming keeping a record of bout wins isnt important in sports. I'm really not even sure the subject of the thread is even legitimate. I Suspect trolls.
Blablabla... once again, don't bring that up, it's so freaking <b>stupid</b>. It's even more sad that you were having a real post before that. The troll is not the one you think it is.
<!--quoteo(post=1980749:date=Sep 20 2012, 03:48 PM:name=ColtColt)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ColtColt @ Sep 20 2012, 03:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1980749"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It allows you to know which teammates are worth saving. Which can aim. Which can play a FPS Half-decently, and are therefore worthy of you dropping TRes to outfit and protect. Principally and obviously this serves the commanders, but i'd even say it benefits the players themselves.
I can conjure up a slew of scenarios, but if i'm only able to influence player A or player B, and player A is a 3 to 1 KD while player B is a 1 to 7 KD, i'm obviously more inclined to (for obvious desire of winning) help out player A.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And why is that? This is totally biased, the player could have done a lot of things very clever and played very well for himself and the team while having an awful ratio. And I am not even talking about the code of NS2 attributing the kill to a noob guy who have possibly just hit the alien with the one last bullet of his LMG.
And to assure you, I do the same as you do, helping players that are more "valuable" for the team, but basing that judgment with the K/D ratio is biased, I do it on nicknames, because this is usually more consistent.
And no I don't care about other performances, I nearly always have been on the top 3 of FPSs, and I know that some people are just better than others and I will never ever have their skills. I don't care about that, but some others do, and usually that people is not those not caring about K/D ratio, but generally the ones basing everything on it.
And I link to <a href='index.php?act=findpost&pid=1980106'>my other post</a> where I explain WHY there is advantages to that. Atmosphere and gameplay on that kind of servers (ie: not caring about K/D) are way way better than others. You should read it (and the topic) before calling trolls.
I smell constructive criticism and intelligent explanations here! Best counter-arguments.
<!--quoteo(post=1980753:date=Sep 20 2012, 05:04 PM:name=Regnareb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Regnareb @ Sep 20 2012, 05:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1980753"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And why is that? This is totally biased, the player could have done a lot of things very clever and played very well for himself and the team while having an awful ratio. And I am not even talking about the code of NS2 attributing the kill to a noob guy who have possibly just hit the alien with the one last bullet of his LMG.
And to assure you, I do the same as you do, helping players that are more "valuable" for the team, but basing that judgment with the K/D ratio is biased, I do it on nicknames, because this is usually more consistent.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How is this basing player skill estimates on nicknames working for you? Does a "killer 666" play better than "super ghost"? Wtf? Numerology or magic next?
Also, people don't base estimates only on K/D, unless they are complete retards, but it is a useful tool. Sure, you see someone constantly doing useful things, you tend to agree that the guy is useful even if their K/D isn't on the top of the list. No need to be an idiot? I think it has been explained over and over again by proponents of K/D that it is an imperfect tool that is not to be taken as the only truth about a players worth?
<!--quoteo(post=1980753:date=Sep 20 2012, 05:04 PM:name=Regnareb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Regnareb @ Sep 20 2012, 05:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1980753"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And no I don't care about other performances, I nearly always have been on the top 3 of FPSs, and I know that some people are just better than others and I will never ever have their skills. I don't care about that, but some others don't, and usually it's not from people not caring about K/D ratio but from people basing everything on it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
????
Team Tasks: Tasks best accomplished by many people using brute force.
Rambo Tasks: Tasks best accomplished by a single person using finesse and often stealth.
You need to know who can kill multiple opponents if the need arises, and who can get killed multiple times if the need arises.
Inb4 making it an optional setting for commanders only. Jesus christ this whole ###### game is going to be optional soon enough if some of you get your way.
UWE even admits they made this game to be more of an FPS than an RTS. What do you do in an FPS? You kill stuff, and die. Seems like a game that is based off killing and dying should track those things?
This is my last post. Thread has gotten stale and boring... were beating dead horsies, and playing broken records. Please close thread.
Show total of damage done and taken?
Can break it down to damage to lifeforms vs structures. Not sure if possible.
That way can get credit for putting three clips into the Onos, even though someone else gets the last shot in. Or for the skulk killing res nodes instead of Marines, is still being helpful to its team.
Damage taken might be high because you die alot, or you could be an epic Fade that never dies. But you can see how much you've survived/adsorbed.
I also think healed/welded should be shown.
<a href="http://www.scalari.net/wp-content/tf2score.jpg" target="_blank">????</a>
haha, thats my sort of 'looking' ...
"Ive lost my Kindle, nooooooo!" ... *24 hours later* ... "oh, its sitting here infront of my PC".
edit: At first I thought, it doesn't show kills, internetexplorer is a numptey! Then I realised I was the numptey! :-(
UWE even admits they made this game to be more of an FPS than an RTS. What do you do in an FPS? You kill stuff, and die. Seems like a game that is based off killing and dying should track those things?
This is my last post. Thread has gotten stale and boring... were beating dead horsies, and playing broken records. Please close thread.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, you don't just kill stuff and die. You provide support(heal/repair/buff/supply/assist/command) and complete objectives (CTF, capture/defend a point, plant/defuse). The score number will reflect your contributions accordingly. Since NS2 has the score number and sorts the scoreboard by it, I don't really mind that K/D is shown, but I can see why other people are concerned as it may be enough to create a bad teamplay experience for them.
<!--quoteo(post=1981028:date=Sep 20 2012, 06:13 PM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ Sep 20 2012, 06:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1981028"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><a href="http://www.scalari.net/wp-content/tf2score.jpg" target="_blank">????</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It only shows your own. You can't see those stats for other players.