<!--quoteo(post=1981080:date=Sep 20 2012, 08:19 PM:name=Camron)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Camron @ Sep 20 2012, 08:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1981080"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It only shows your own. You can't see those stats for other players.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Someone already mentioned earlier but I would like to insist on it : the example of Red Orchestra (and its sequel).
Many here seem to think not displaying K/D is for casual games and casual players, this is the perfect counter to this argument :
*RO <i>is not a casual game</i>, it requires extensive FPS skills and map knowledge to be good at, in many ways it is an harder FPS experience than NS2 which is pretty basic in its FPS component. *A RO game actualy requires <i>more FPS skills and less strategy to be won</i> compared to an NS2 game, there is no base building, no upgrades, no purchasable weapons etc. Killing and not dying is a lot more imporant to assure victory.
Even though having a highter K/D is actualy <i>more</i> beneficial to the team in RO than in NS2 the devs still chose to <i>not </i>display it. Instead they decided to implement a global score system which values assisting, taking objectives or killing ennemies on the actual objectives. Why did they adopt this system ? Because they knew that popular FPSs today favor roaming alone picking kills rather than playing the objective or sticking with teamates. They knew new players arriving to the game would instinctly reproduce this kind of behaviour as it's the only one they know and is actualy rewarded in other games of the same genre. As the Red Orchestra devs did not want to sacrifice their vision of what an FPS should be for the trivial display of the K/D ratio they scrapped it, even if the K/D is actualy <i>important </i>to win a RO game. Removing K/D doesn't mean K/D doesn't matter, it doesn't mean it's not important to win, it doesn't mean you're not making an FPS, it just means you want to promote teamplay and an objective driven game. It has <i>nothing</i> to do with not hurting new players feeling, it's about promoting a certain type of gameplay and refusing one.
NS2 has way way more actions which could be considered beneficial to the team and don't involve killing an ennemy at all, global score without K/D would be even more meaningful. Yet many players here refuse it with childish disdain completely missing the point of what removing K/D actualy means, it's very disapointing to see such behavior.
<!--quoteo(post=1981285:date=Sep 21 2012, 01:36 PM:name=Archam)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Archam @ Sep 21 2012, 01:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1981285"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Even though having a highter K/D is actualy <i>more</i> beneficial to the team in RO than in NS2 the devs still chose to <i>not </i>display it. Instead they decided to implement a global score system which values assisting, taking objectives or killing ennemies on the actual objectives. Why did they adopt this system ? Because they knew that popular FPSs today favor roaming alone picking kills rather than playing the objective or sticking with teamates. They knew new players arriving to the game would instinctly reproduce this kind of behaviour as it's the only one they know and is actualy rewarded in other games of the same genre. As the Red Orchestra devs did not want to sacrifice their vision of what an FPS should be for the trivial display of the K/D ratio they scrapped it, even if the K/D is actualy <i>important </i>to win a RO game. Removing K/D doesn't mean K/D doesn't matter, it doesn't mean it's not important to win, it doesn't mean you're not making an FPS, it justs mean you want to promote teamplay and an objective driven game. It has <i>nothing</i> to do with not hurting new players feeling, it's about promoting a certain kind of gameplay and refusing one.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Please cite source. I would love to read an article or document describing the reasons for going this way, the pros and the cons.
<!--quoteo(post=1981285:date=Sep 21 2012, 01:36 PM:name=Archam)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Archam @ Sep 21 2012, 01:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1981285"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->NS2 has way way more actions which could be considered beneficial to the team and don't involve killing an ennemy at all, global score without K/D would be even more meaningful. Yet many players here refuse it with childish disdain completely missing the point of what removing K/D actualy means, it's very disapointing to see such behavior.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It is very disappointing that when I asked earlier about examples and experiences of cases where abuse about K/D has been harmful, it went unanswered. I'm still interested.
<!--quoteo(post=1981289:date=Sep 21 2012, 03:47 AM:name=Squirreli_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squirreli_ @ Sep 21 2012, 03:47 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1981289"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Please cite source. I would love to read an article or document describing the reasons for going this way, the pros and the cons.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think my point is clear enough in itself but if you do want sources I will look for them. If you don't feel convinced by the reasons I expose and have any other view on why the RO devs chose to not display K/D ratio I would be happy to hear it.
<!--quoteo(post=1981289:date=Sep 21 2012, 03:47 AM:name=Squirreli_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squirreli_ @ Sep 21 2012, 03:47 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1981289"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It is very disappointing that when I asked earlier about examples and experiences of cases where abuse about K/D has been harmful, it went unanswered. I'm still interested.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's not about potential abuses it's about what kind of game you want to create. (and I am sorry about leaving it unanswered in the past, I simply wasn't here ;). Let me give you an example with two other games : Dota2 and League of Legend. Both games have a report system which allow players to ask for sanctions against others players with innapropriate behaviours. League of Legend allows you to report people for "being bad" or leaving the game early.
Dota2 doesn't. Does it mean being good at the game is less important in Dota2 ? Does it mean leaving a game early is ok and doesn't ruin other people's game ? It certainly doesn't, the Dota2 devs just noticed such reports don't prevent people from being bad or leaving games early, they just create a hostile and agressive atmosphere in the game. It's not about fixing an abuse here, it's about how they want their game and their community to be.
Now back to NS2 and RO. Not displaying the K/D ratio doesn't mean a guy ramboing around the map and racking up kills is an abuse, or even a nuisance to other players. It just means the RO devs want to simulate something that more or less looks like war where people stick together and actualy try to follow the orders of their commander. NS2 could use the same thing, people running around racking up kills don't hurt the game, they just push it in a direction which is perhaps not the one we (or at least I) would like to see.
You have to take into consideration that the current FPS market is saturated with games valorising lonewolf behaviours and "ramboing". Considering NS2 is an FPS game it is mainly targeted at this public. Now I agree that good players will both have a hight K/D and help their team, and that being good at FPS is crucial in NS2, this is inarguable.
The problem is, the targeted public for NS2 is not used to conciliate both things, and they will undoubtedly try to favor their K/D over the victory of their team (because team victory actualy doesn't matter at all in most FPSs today), this will work neither for them (because alone you die pretty fast) neither for their team. It will take a while for these players to actualy conciliate the two and start to be useful to their team, a long while.
The RO devs were confronted to the same problem, and they concluded that while K/D is important in the game, hiding it will help people figuring out what this game is all about faster. Not only that but it will force them to play as the devs intented.
I think there is a massive risk at release that NS2 pub games will just be plagued by people who have no idea of what this game is all about. Their FPS skills will not be the problem (they likely played many FPS before) their problem will be understanding what teamplay means. Hiding K/D will make the learning process faster.
<!--quoteo(post=1981295:date=Sep 21 2012, 02:07 PM:name=Archam)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Archam @ Sep 21 2012, 02:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1981295"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think my point is clear enough in itself but if you do want sources I will look for them. If you don't feel convinced by the reasons I expose and have any other view on why the RO devs chose to not display K/D ratio I would be happy to hear it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have seen a lot of opinions both in favour and against the K/D in scoreboard, but very few actual articles or opinions by game designers etc. There are people who have more credibility on these matters than us arguing in this thread, so I would much rather read up on it. Also, your post seems to borrow much authority to support your arguments from the RO devs, and I would of course like to hear it from the horses mouth, as it were. So, yes, the point is clear, but the jury is still out ;)
And just to re-iterate: I've yet to notice any note-worthy negative effects of the K/D. Since in my experience I have not felt a need to hide the K/D and since I've yet to see credible articles proposing the removal of the K/D, I'm of course going to be in favour or keeping the K/D, because I happen to rather like having that information available.
<!--quoteo(post=1981301:date=Sep 21 2012, 04:23 AM:name=Squirreli_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squirreli_ @ Sep 21 2012, 04:23 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1981301"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I have seen a lot of opinions both in favour and against the K/D in scoreboard, but very few actual articles or opinions by game designers etc. There are people who have more credibility on these matters than us arguing in this thread, so I would much rather read up on it. Also, your post seems to borrow much authority to support your arguments from the RO devs, and I would of course like to hear it from the horses mouth, as it were. So, yes, the point is clear, but the jury is still out ;)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I will look for it, what I say is mostly based on a very long discussion that happened long ago on the game's forum, precisely on a similar thread as this one. I will try to find interviews etc. where it is more officialy mentionned.
<!--quoteo(post=1980538:date=Sep 19 2012, 09:56 PM:name=.ADHd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (.ADHd @ Sep 19 2012, 09:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1980538"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You, on the other hand, could kill a fade (Costing aliens 50 res) which takes a hell of a lot more skill, and will end up saving your team res on top of it (Your team wont have to rebuy equipment or place lost RT's due to fade harassment)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sometimes fades are killed by multiple people, with only the person who lands the last shot getting the points. I don't see how that is relevant to "skill" when the game does not track individual assist points. And like in NS1, the more kills you have, the more points you get, the higher up on the scoreboard you are. It's all reflective regardless if you can see the K/D of yourself or others.
<!--quoteo(post=1980538:date=Sep 19 2012, 09:56 PM:name=.ADHd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (.ADHd @ Sep 19 2012, 09:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1980538"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You want the scoreboard to reflect that you did just as much "good" as the guy who killed the fade by himself??? ROFL.... so sad dude.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The scoreboard already does. So sad dude.
<!--quoteo(post=1980538:date=Sep 19 2012, 09:56 PM:name=.ADHd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (.ADHd @ Sep 19 2012, 09:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1980538"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So, this simple example shows how getting kills is better in multiple ways.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
"Better" is subjective. A person who is with a team of people killing enemy RTs but doesn't get the last swipe, so he doesn't get the points, doesn't mean he is doing any less than the person who does.
<!--quoteo(post=1980538:date=Sep 19 2012, 09:56 PM:name=.ADHd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (.ADHd @ Sep 19 2012, 09:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1980538"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This thread doesn't deserve 7 pages. In fact, this thread is downright pathetic. I won't insult the original poster... but he may be new to first person shooters it seems....<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It doesn't seem like you're able to carry an argument without some sort of lowbrow insult. Even going as far as to say "I'm not going to insult you, except here is an insult"
People have different opinions and it seems you classify everyone who doesn't agree with you as pathetic. I have a classification for you, as well. But I don't want to insult you.
Removing visual KDR indicators doesn't "promote teamplay" just because you really want it to.
Until you can show me a study that makes this clear, I'm just going to assume you're deluding yourself into believing this to justify going 0-10 as a gorge all day erry day.
Fighting effectively <i>is </i>teamplay. Flags, resource towers, capture points ... all of those come second to killing and dying in every team based FPS ever. Unless you're playing against people way worse than you, you have to fight effectively (i.e. keep a high aggregate KDR overall, or in certain key time periods) in order to achieve the map objectives.
This argument goes in circles forever, and it's mostly because people try to come up with convoluted arguments to de-emphasize 'killing and dying in FPS games' to no particular end. Or people have a deep persecution complex and think that everyone playing for their KDR is the devil. Either way, you don't know what you're talking about :)
<b>To reiterate:</b> give evidence for your claims. Show me the idealistic game where no one can ever know their KDR and it causes everyone to play better as a team, and makes gameplay more interesting. Until then: <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=117168&hl=" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...=117168&hl=</a>
<!--quoteo(post=1981543:date=Sep 21 2012, 03:38 PM:name=dethovu)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (dethovu @ Sep 21 2012, 03:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1981543"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sometimes fades are killed by multiple people, with only the person who lands the last shot getting the points. I don't see how that is relevant to "skill" when the game does not track individual assist points. And like in NS1, the more kills you have, the more points you get, the higher up on the scoreboard you are. It's all reflective regardless if you can see the K/D of yourself or others.
The scoreboard already does. So sad dude.
"Better" is subjective. A person who is with a team of people killing enemy RTs but doesn't get the last swipe, so he doesn't get the points, doesn't mean he is doing any less than the person who does.
It doesn't seem like you're able to carry an argument without some sort of lowbrow insult. Even going as far as to say "I'm not going to insult you, except here is an insult"
People have different opinions and it seems you classify everyone who doesn't agree with you as pathetic. I have a classification for you, as well. But I don't want to insult you.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Lol, :(
I guess your reading comprehension is either rusty, or you didn't care to pay attention to what I said. I said "soloing" a fade... I guess you don't know what that means...
No idea what your response to the 2nd quote even means at all. It's hard to form arguments against arguments that don't make any sense.
When you talked about "better" as subjective you bring up a completely different subject from the one I was talking about. Well that plainly doesn't even make sense. That like me saying LMG is better than shotgun and you responding with "You're wrong fade swipe is best" lol. When I say that killing a fade by <i>yourself</i> (Yes, that large detail you chose to ignore) makes you a better player than someone who runs around building RT's, it isn't subjective. It's just basic logic and truth to be honest. Are both roles important for winning? Yes. If NS2 were a business do you think the warrior would be paid the same as the builder? No, because you pay people with higher skills more because they are simply more valuable. Herp.
This is just basic logic. The more effective players are at killing the better they are at the game. That is plain and simple. Building RT's and killing structures is all well and fine, but it is a tier below killing the other team that is trying to kill you. If the scoreboard doesn't show your kills vs deaths it doesn't show who is the most effective and contributing to the team in the most important way. Basically you want to put a veil over the single most important scoreboard stat to apply the "kindergarten effect". What is the kindergarten effect? Basically it's the one that says "Oh don't worry Billy, you are just as special as everyone else... everybody wins!" LAWL. That is just wrong.
Funny thing is that the point system agrees with what I am saying already, as killing a fade grants you 20 points and killing and RT gives you 15. There is a very specific reason for this... one is simply more important aka the player who did the killing was technically better and thus rewarded more.
Let's bring more depth into this argument. Say the other team has many skilled players who are great at fragging. Well all your cute examples of cute teamwork and working together means nothing. You won't even be able to get to the RT to chop it down if you can't outfrag the other team on the way. Your arguments are fatally flawed. You need good players to kill other good players to allow the less effective players to take care of the easy work. Would you put your best shooter on building duty? Please answer this question honestly and explain to me your reasoning behind your answer.
Would you put your best shooter in a position where they will build and kill structures? If not... please say why... and make an elaborate explanation. You might just think and realize you are wrong.
K/D is fine, any respectable game has it, regardless of score relevance. I hope they add assists and points given based on damage done with a small bonus to the guy who gets the kill.
<!--quoteo(post=1981637:date=Sep 21 2012, 08:45 PM:name=Onii-chan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Onii-chan @ Sep 21 2012, 08:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1981637"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->K/D is fine, any respectable game has it, regardless of score relevance. I hope they add assists and points given based on damage done with a small bonus to the guy who gets the kill.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Whoever get's the last bullet still deserves more points than the person who did most damage. There are multiple reasons for this but I don't really want to get heavily into it. You can see the same concept applied in real life sports if you need examples. A hockey player might outmaneuver 6 people and take the puck all the way down to the other goal, but passes at the last moment for someone who was in a better position. All the other teammate had to do was tap the puck in for the goal. Even though the other player did most of the work the other player gets credit for the goal.
IeptBarakatThe most difficult name to speak ingame.Join Date: 2009-07-10Member: 68107Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow
<!--quoteo(post=1981641:date=Sep 21 2012, 09:51 PM:name=.ADHd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (.ADHd @ Sep 21 2012, 09:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1981641"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Whoever get's the last bullet still deserves more points than the person who did most damage. There are multiple reasons for this but I don't really want to get heavily into it. You can see the same concept applied in real life sports if you need examples. A hockey player might outmaneuver 6 people and take the puck all the way down to the other goal, but passes at the last moment for someone who was in a better position. All the other teammate had to do was tap the puck in for the goal. Even though the other player did most of the work the other player gets credit for the goal.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1981587:date=Sep 22 2012, 01:34 AM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ Sep 22 2012, 01:34 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1981587"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Fighting effectively <i>is </i>teamplay. Flags, resource towers, capture points ... all of those come second to killing and dying in every team based FPS ever. Unless you're playing against people way worse than you, you have to fight effectively (i.e. keep a high aggregate KDR overall, or in certain key time periods) in order to achieve the map objectives.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Uh, what.
Everything you say here is completely countered by winning mechanics other than KDR existing. I'm starting to think you're the one with ulterior motives here. A high overall KDR or certain key victories are important, but saying CTF flags always come second and that you HAVE TO have high KDR overall is false.
Please be more accurate in future pursuing your horribly presented cause. :p
Everything you say here is completely countered by winning mechanics other than KDR existing. I'm starting to think you're the one with ulterior motives here. A high overall KDR or certain key victories are important, but saying CTF flags always come second and that you HAVE TO have high KDR overall is false.
Please be more accurate in future pursuing your horribly presented cause. :p<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
okay I'll say it really simply: if you are capping a lot in ctf without getting more kills than deaths, you're playing against terribles
<!--quoteo(post=1981631:date=Sep 21 2012, 09:40 PM:name=.ADHd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (.ADHd @ Sep 21 2012, 09:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1981631"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The more effective players are at killing the better they are at the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Showing/hiding K/D doesn't affect a person's skill. And I think personal K/D should be shown.
<!--quoteo(post=1981631:date=Sep 21 2012, 09:40 PM:name=.ADHd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (.ADHd @ Sep 21 2012, 09:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1981631"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Building RT's and killing structures is all well and fine, but it is a tier below killing the other team that is trying to kill you.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The point system reflects this by itself.
<!--quoteo(post=1981631:date=Sep 21 2012, 09:40 PM:name=.ADHd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (.ADHd @ Sep 21 2012, 09:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1981631"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If the scoreboard doesn't show your kills vs deaths it doesn't show who is the most effective and contributing to the team in the most important way.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Highest scores are a better way to judge overall contribution, since it reflects both kills and building. How many times you can run away to an armory to heal up is irrelevant. If you're doing well, your points will reflect it.
<!--quoteo(post=1981631:date=Sep 21 2012, 09:40 PM:name=.ADHd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (.ADHd @ Sep 21 2012, 09:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1981631"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Basically you want to put a veil over the single most important scoreboard stat to apply the "kindergarten effect". What is the kindergarten effect? Basically it's the one that says "Oh don't worry Billy, you are just as special as everyone else... everybody wins!" LAWL. That is just wrong.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Again, you've missed the point of the inclusion of the point system: There is still room for competition and ego soothing with higher points earned.
<!--quoteo(post=1981631:date=Sep 21 2012, 09:40 PM:name=.ADHd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (.ADHd @ Sep 21 2012, 09:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1981631"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Funny thing is that the point system agrees with what I am saying already, as killing a fade grants you 20 points and killing and RT gives you 15. There is a very specific reason for this... one is simply more important aka the player who did the killing was technically better and thus rewarded more.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Hey, you finally got it.
<!--quoteo(post=1981631:date=Sep 21 2012, 09:40 PM:name=.ADHd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (.ADHd @ Sep 21 2012, 09:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1981631"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Let's bring more depth into this argument. Say the other team has many skilled players who are great at fragging. Well all your cute examples of cute teamwork and working together means nothing. You won't even be able to get to the RT to chop it down if you can't outfrag the other team on the way. Your arguments are fatally flawed. You need good players to kill other good players to allow the less effective players to take care of the easy work. Would you put your best shooter on building duty? Please answer this question honestly and explain to me your reasoning behind your answer. Would you put your best shooter in a position where they will build and kill structures? If not... please say why... and make an elaborate explanation. You might just think and realize you are wrong.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, you're cute!
Also, the scoreboard reflects everything you're saying about fragging and the best shooter and everything else related to doing well. And a visible K/D ratio won't help people aim, so I'm not really sure what you're implying with that.
<!--quoteo(post=1981660:date=Sep 21 2012, 10:49 PM:name=dethovu)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (dethovu @ Sep 21 2012, 10:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1981660"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Again, you've missed the point of the inclusion of the point system: There is still room for competition and ego soothing with higher points earned.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, because going around killing every cyst on the map and getting the highest score will soothe the ego's of baddies.
Goob job! You sat around killing RT's and cysts while the rest of the team killed fades and pushed a hive and won the game but hey.... you have the highest points. You clearly are the best player and the guy who went 23-0 but didn't waste his time killing cysts has a huge ego obviously.
Problem is fundamental. Good players get high KDR's and see the game from a higher perspective. Bad players get envious and want to feel important... so they come on the forums and complain that KDR is ruining teamplay. I understand. Maybe one day you will too.
Kindergarten Selection 2. Where everybody is important and wins! Even the cyst killers! Don't let Jonny make you feel less important with his 40-1 score. All those RT's and cysts you killed mattered in the end... you are important Jim. Have a gold star.
<!--quoteo(post=1981676:date=Sep 22 2012, 01:43 AM:name=.ADHd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (.ADHd @ Sep 22 2012, 01:43 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1981676"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yeah, because going around killing every cyst on the map and getting the highest score will soothe the ego's of baddies. Goob job! You sat around killing RT's and cysts while the rest of the team killed fades and pushed a hive and won the game but hey.... you have the highest points. You clearly are the best player and the guy who went 23-0 but didn't waste his time killing cysts has a huge ego obviously.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You're very dramatic in your hypothetical situations. You also can't do math. If there are people getting 20, 25, 30+ points for killing fades and hives, the person getting 5 points a cyst doesn't a have a chance to have as high of a score. And the aliens will be so hurt by the ones doing all the killing, there won't be any cysts left for this mythical cyst killer to kill. Plus, you make it out as if cyst killing is worthless, but to use your own logic, there is a reason you are rewarded for it.
<!--quoteo(post=1981676:date=Sep 22 2012, 01:43 AM:name=.ADHd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (.ADHd @ Sep 22 2012, 01:43 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1981676"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Problem is fundamental. Good players get high KDR's and see the game from a higher perspective. Bad players get envious and want to feel important... so they come on the forums and complain that KDR is ruining teamplay. I understand. Maybe one day you will too.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Problem is egotistical. You think anyone who wants the K/D to be hidden are poor players that want to hide their shame, rather than for any other reason that isn't so personal, while gloating about your own amour-propre in the process.
<!--quoteo(post=1981676:date=Sep 22 2012, 01:43 AM:name=.ADHd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (.ADHd @ Sep 22 2012, 01:43 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1981676"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Kindergarten Selection 2. Where everybody is important and wins! Even the cyst killers! Don't let Jonny make you feel less important with his 40-1 score. All those RT's and cysts you killed mattered in the end... you are important Jim. Have a gold star.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Again, you're very dramatic.
<!--quoteo(post=1980765:date=Sep 20 2012, 04:40 PM:name=Squirreli_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squirreli_ @ Sep 20 2012, 04:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1980765"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How is this basing player skill estimates on nicknames working for you? Does a "killer 666" play better than "super ghost"? Wtf? Numerology or magic next?
Also, people don't base estimates only on K/D, unless they are complete retards, but it is a useful tool. Sure, you see someone constantly doing useful things, you tend to agree that the guy is useful even if their K/D isn't on the top of the list. No need to be an idiot? I think it has been explained over and over again by proponents of K/D that it is an imperfect tool that is not to be taken as the only truth about a players worth?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yeah, so easy to deride something, but that won't make it false for all that. And you are understanding it just after that and giving an argument against KDR. You can use your own judgment, KDR is an imperfect tool that is not to be taken as the only truth about a players worth. And this is easy to do without knowing his ratio.
<!--quoteo(post=1981658:date=Sep 22 2012, 05:34 AM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ Sep 22 2012, 05:34 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1981658"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->okay I'll say it really simply: if you are capping a lot in ctf without getting more kills than deaths, you're playing against terribles<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Tribes.
<!--quoteo(post=1981587:date=Sep 22 2012, 12:34 AM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ Sep 22 2012, 12:34 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1981587"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Removing visual KDR indicators doesn't "promote teamplay" just because you really want it to.
Until you can show me a study that makes this clear, I'm just going to assume you're deluding yourself into believing this to justify going 0-10 as a gorge all day erry day.
Fighting effectively <i>is </i>teamplay. Flags, resource towers, capture points ... all of those come second to killing and dying in every team based FPS ever. Unless you're playing against people way worse than you, you have to fight effectively (i.e. keep a high aggregate KDR overall, or in certain key time periods) in order to achieve the map objectives.
This argument goes in circles forever, and it's mostly because people try to come up with convoluted arguments to de-emphasize 'killing and dying in FPS games' to no particular end. Or people have a deep persecution complex and think that everyone playing for their KDR is the devil. Either way, you don't know what you're talking about :)
<b>To reiterate:</b> give evidence for your claims. Show me the idealistic game where no one can ever know their KDR and it causes everyone to play better as a team, and makes gameplay more interesting. Until then: <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=117168&hl=" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...=117168&hl=</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What if I told you that I work in video games and that I am a gamer since 20 years? Would that make my assumptions better? Developers are just gamers who think about games they have in front of them, players that think about game design and mechanisms. And everyone can do that just by using their brain. It's like quoting a philosopher and hiding behind him "Go read that and you'll see". But if you understood him you can go beyond his thought and don't need to quote him every time.
And in fact, I do work in video games, and am a player since 20 years.
Why do Tripwire, Splash damage, Valve, Hi-rez, Epic games did deleted the KDR of their games, don't you think they have thought about it? It's a game decision, it's not something you throw out of the window like that. All of their games is team based gameplay with objectives and all are... FPS. And not caring about stats is the way to go with that kind of gameplay. Like I explained myself in my first post, there is more pros and less cons when you delete that kind of info, than when you display it, and they are not trifling.
KDR is not that important in those games, they are not representative of the performances and could even affect players with good KDR with self-esteem they don't deserve, because they didn't really serve their team well or the way they should have. And the opposite is also true. It can be relevant to the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning–Kruger_effect" target="_blank">Dunning-Kruger</a> effect.
"Show me the idealistic game where no one can ever know their KDR and it causes everyone to play better as a team, and makes gameplay more interesting." We already told you some. And I did once again.
And just for the quote : Splash Damage - Brink: <a href="http://forums.warchestgames.com/showthread.php/23048-Kill-Death-Stats" target="_blank">Kill / Death Stats (with devs)</a> and <a href="http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/134743/on_the_brink_of_change.php" target="_blank">Gamasutra - On The Brink Of Change</a> In fact if you search on the web, you can see <a href="http://blacklight-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=387651" target="_blank">that discussion</a> in <a href="http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2489531" target="_blank">some</a> <a href="http://www.gamespot.com/brink/forum/concerning-no-kdr-on-the-scoreboard-58968216/?page=1" target="_blank">other</a> <a href="http://forums.ageofconan.com/showthread.php?t=234160" target="_blank">places</a>.
<!--quoteo(post=1981641:date=Sep 22 2012, 04:51 AM:name=.ADHd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (.ADHd @ Sep 22 2012, 04:51 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1981641"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Whoever get's the last bullet still deserves more points than the person who did most damage. There are multiple reasons for this but I don't really want to get heavily into it. You can see the same concept applied in real life sports if you need examples. A hockey player might outmaneuver 6 people and take the puck all the way down to the other goal, but passes at the last moment for someone who was in a better position. All the other teammate had to do was tap the puck in for the goal. Even though the other player did most of the work the other player gets credit for the goal.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nah, an average bonus is enough.
When killing a Fade the guy that gets 2 shotgun blasts in the Fade's face is a bit more important than guys shooting their rifles randomly and getting the kill.
<!--quoteo(post=1981676:date=Sep 22 2012, 08:43 AM:name=.ADHd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (.ADHd @ Sep 22 2012, 08:43 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1981676"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yeah, because going around killing every cyst on the map and getting the highest score will soothe the ego's of baddies.
Goob job! You sat around killing RT's and cysts while the rest of the team killed fades and pushed a hive and won the game but hey.... you have the highest points. You clearly are the best player and the guy who went 23-0 but didn't waste his time killing cysts has a huge ego obviously.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Considering cysts give only +2, the amount of skulks you'll need to avoid and the hundreds of cysts you'll have to kill, they earned it. And killing RTs is what effectively wins game, otherwise the Fades can just get replaced.
A rambo marine that manages to kill 6+ RTs will probably top the charts even if he has 0-15, but he has effectively killed the enemy economy, allowing your team to dominate. Killing skulks serves no other purpose other than advancing to kill more critical things, that actually cost Tres.
<!--quoteo(post=1981676:date=Sep 22 2012, 08:43 AM:name=.ADHd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (.ADHd @ Sep 22 2012, 08:43 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1981676"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Problem is fundamental. Good players get high KDR's and see the game from a higher perspective. Bad players get envious and want to feel important... so they come on the forums and complain that KDR is ruining teamplay. I understand. Maybe one day you will too.
Kindergarten Selection 2. Where everybody is important and wins! Even the cyst killers! Don't let Jonny make you feel less important with his 40-1 score. All those RT's and cysts you killed mattered in the end... you are important Jim. Have a gold star.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm for keeping KDR as well but undermining the score is silly. Some people will care about score and will ignore KDR, some will care about KDR and will ignore score. The system needs some tweaks, but currently, the guys with the better KDR will on average have the top scores as well.
<!--quoteo(post=1981718:date=Sep 22 2012, 06:41 AM:name=Regnareb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Regnareb @ Sep 22 2012, 06:41 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1981718"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What if I told you that I work in video games and that I am a gamer since 20 years? Would that make my assumptions better? ... And in fact, I do work in video games, and am a player since 20 years.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
okay dude I believe you
I make professional video cards and I've played video games for 20 years as well. Can we move on?
<!--quoteo(post=1981718:date=Sep 22 2012, 06:41 AM:name=Regnareb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Regnareb @ Sep 22 2012, 06:41 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1981718"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->KDR is not that important in those games, they are not representative of the performances and could even affect players with good KDR with self-esteem they don't deserve, because they didn't really serve their team well or the way they should have. And the opposite is also true. It can be relevant to the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning–Kruger_effect" target="_blank">Dunning-Kruger</a> effect.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What do you mean 'the opposite is also true'? Is that referring to bleeding-heart "support" players who use poor reasoning and random wiki pages to justify being bad at video games?
I don't see how Valve has taken KDR out of their games, either. TF2 and CSGO both show it...maybe other games like DOTA2 don't since they're not FPS...
If I go by those posts on the Brink forums, then games with KDR shown have zero teamplay and <a href="http://forums.warchestgames.com/showthread.php/23048-Kill-Death-Stats?p=256387&viewfull=1#post256387" target="_blank">never had any</a>. But that's an obvious contradiction because quake-style CTF games, old TF games, CS and so on are all analysed heavily with KDR. The people competing in those games at a high level aren't ignoring objectives or working alone, but they all strive for a high KDR because it unlocks the ability to do those other things reliably.
If you work in the games industry and have real insight, explain it. I'm not going to read a bunch of threads from other forums that are indentical to the NS2 KDR threads.
Like I say, show me where a game developer (like the one you work for!) did a large-scale study of users with regard to KDR, and found real results not tainted by forum warriors spinning fancy tales.
<b>Reminder:</b> dunning-kruger is for when people claim that KDR is simply about boasting and that it's not really important.
While i'm also a fan of the "no K:D ratio" philosophy one has to acknowledge that simply hiding it away is a bad solution, it's also a difficult one with the potential for a lot of bad community feedback. Most people should remember how the whole thing went down with CS, they made it a toggle and in the end everybody just turned "K:D" on the scoreboard on.
I'd rather see the whole pointsystem overhauled, maybe just remove the kill column and implement assist points for kills. Imho right now one of the biggest flaws is the fact that "last bullet gets all points", so it's usually a lucky one getting a ton of points while the other players receive nothing at all. Instead it would be way better to remove "kills" and instead make players receive points based on damage done. If 4 Marines in a room shoot a Onos and it dies, then all the marines will get that addicting "+points" pop up on their screen, based on the amount of damage they did to the Onos.
The amount of points received this way will also directly allow the player to judge his impact on the kill, did he do a lot of damage (lots of points) or did he just get one last hit in (few points). Having score:death ratio matter is also way more forgiving for players that do actually play objective oriented and score lots of points.
Yeah, splitting the points for kills is a good idea too. But KDR is still an important concept and can be used very effectively to analyse this game (only if you can see it, though)
<!--quoteo(post=1981808:date=Sep 22 2012, 08:14 PM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ Sep 22 2012, 08:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1981808"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->okay dude I believe you
I make professional video cards and I've played video games for 20 years as well. Can we move on?
What do you mean 'the opposite is also true'? Is that referring to bleeding-heart "support" players who use poor reasoning and random wiki pages to justify being bad at video games?
I don't see how Valve has taken KDR out of their games, either. TF2 and CSGO both show it...maybe other games like DOTA2 don't since they're not FPS...
If I go by those posts on the Brink forums, then games with KDR shown have zero teamplay and <a href="http://forums.warchestgames.com/showthread.php/23048-Kill-Death-Stats?p=256387&viewfull=1#post256387" target="_blank">never had any</a>. But that's an obvious contradiction because quake-style CTF games, old TF games, CS and so on are all analysed heavily with KDR. The people competing in those games at a high level aren't ignoring objectives or working alone, but they all strive for a high KDR because it unlocks the ability to do those other things reliably.
If you work in the games industry and have real insight, explain it. I'm not going to read a bunch of threads from other forums that are indentical to the NS2 KDR threads.
Like I say, show me where a game developer (like the one you work for!) did a large-scale study of users with regard to KDR, and found real results not tainted by forum warriors spinning fancy tales.
<b>Reminder:</b> dunning-kruger is for when people claim that KDR is simply about boasting and that it's not really important.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You don't even read what others are writing to you... No TF2 do not show the KDR, no 'the opposite is also true' refers to the players with a bad KDR who were actually playing a lot better than players with a "good" KDR. In DOTA2 the KDR is even more important than in FPS, it's in the core of the game. Yeah competing players do not need Hints and Rookie mode, obvious no? But we are not really talking about that here, in general, in tournament and esport the game is never really the same as the one in pubs. You have more tools, to cast, to stats, to... anything. You still could have KDR showed for tournaments and others, I see zero problems with that. Here, it is more about the pubs play, from where, generally, the cash flow and the base players will come for Unknownworlds, and that will impact a majority of players, servers and their general ambiance directly.
I had two links to developers talking about Brink too. Just... read, please. Even if it is just <a href="http://forums.steamgames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2780777" target="_blank">random threads</a> on random forums, it's still good to read to understand the others points of view in different forms. Then think by yourself, analyze, think again, etc. until death happens :p
rebirth > Yep, there should definitely have some kind of assist in NS2, but I think (really hope) it's planned, like the bugged points attributed when you are building: a guy building a structure alone for 98% can get 0 points while the one beginning at 98% can get the points.
<!--quoteo(post=1981836:date=Sep 22 2012, 08:39 PM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ Sep 22 2012, 08:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1981836"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yeah, splitting the points for kills is a good idea too. But KDR is still an important concept and can be used very effectively to analyse this game (only if you can see it, though)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well splitting kills only works if you remove kills and replace them with only getting points. Because splitting the 1.0 value for a kill into equal parts for all people would result in a pretty funky looking kill column with lots of decimals. But i think overall it could be a pretty neat solution to just remove the kill column and work with "damage done" that's counted into the points score. Want to see how good a player is? Just look at his Score:Death ratio to get an idea. The great thing about this: Even the suicide players that only go after high value targets will end up getting rated "good" that way.
The next step could be to remove the death column completely, sending the very clear message to all players: You are just a small cog in a big wheel that's easily replaced, now move out and do at least some damage before you lose your trivial life!
But i don't see that happening as long as we have a counter-intuitive design decisions in place, like "no res while dead". Getting no res while being dead is an valid argument to show deaths, because deaths directly lead to a way worse performance overall due to the lack of resource income on top of the team having one less player on the field. It still doesn't explain the broken logic behind having "no res while dead" in the first place.. (Yes it's broken, but that's another discussion)
OP has a terrible K/D ratio so he comes to the forums to QQ.
Why remove it? NS2 is a Hybrid, but it has been said that it is first and foremost an FPS. Also it would make the game pretty ###### for the inevitable release of combat mode...
Thought I'd post here rather than post a new thread.
Instead of removing K/D stats, how about just having a tally for score due to kills, and score due to building? Or better yet - damage dealt to structures and players, and health given to structures and players. This would be a better reflection of a player's presence on the field, as there are plenty of times I've gotten a bunch of kills due to being the last one to shoot or bite, or have had kills stolen by someone else.
Comments
oh i'm sorry<!--sizeo:7--><span style="font-size:36pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><i><b>!!</b></i><u></u><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
Many here seem to think not displaying K/D is for casual games and casual players, this is the perfect counter to this argument :
*RO <i>is not a casual game</i>, it requires extensive FPS skills and map knowledge to be good at, in many ways it is an harder FPS experience than NS2 which is pretty basic in its FPS component.
*A RO game actualy requires <i>more FPS skills and less strategy to be won</i> compared to an NS2 game, there is no base building, no upgrades, no purchasable weapons etc. Killing and not dying is a lot more imporant to assure victory.
Even though having a highter K/D is actualy <i>more</i> beneficial to the team in RO than in NS2 the devs still chose to <i>not </i>display it. Instead they decided to implement a global score system which values assisting, taking objectives or killing ennemies on the actual objectives.
Why did they adopt this system ?
Because they knew that popular FPSs today favor roaming alone picking kills rather than playing the objective or sticking with teamates. They knew new players arriving to the game would instinctly reproduce this kind of behaviour as it's the only one they know and is actualy rewarded in other games of the same genre.
As the Red Orchestra devs did not want to sacrifice their vision of what an FPS should be for the trivial display of the K/D ratio they scrapped it, even if the K/D is actualy <i>important </i>to win a RO game.
Removing K/D doesn't mean K/D doesn't matter, it doesn't mean it's not important to win, it doesn't mean you're not making an FPS, it just means you want to promote teamplay and an objective driven game. It has <i>nothing</i> to do with not hurting new players feeling, it's about promoting a certain type of gameplay and refusing one.
NS2 has way way more actions which could be considered beneficial to the team and don't involve killing an ennemy at all, global score without K/D would be even more meaningful. Yet many players here refuse it with childish disdain completely missing the point of what removing K/D actualy means, it's very disapointing to see such behavior.
Why did they adopt this system ?
Because they knew that popular FPSs today favor roaming alone picking kills rather than playing the objective or sticking with teamates. They knew new players arriving to the game would instinctly reproduce this kind of behaviour as it's the only one they know and is actualy rewarded in other games of the same genre.
As the Red Orchestra devs did not want to sacrifice their vision of what an FPS should be for the trivial display of the K/D ratio they scrapped it, even if the K/D is actualy <i>important </i>to win a RO game.
Removing K/D doesn't mean K/D doesn't matter, it doesn't mean it's not important to win, it doesn't mean you're not making an FPS, it justs mean you want to promote teamplay and an objective driven game. It has <i>nothing</i> to do with not hurting new players feeling, it's about promoting a certain kind of gameplay and refusing one.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Please cite source. I would love to read an article or document describing the reasons for going this way, the pros and the cons.
<!--quoteo(post=1981285:date=Sep 21 2012, 01:36 PM:name=Archam)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Archam @ Sep 21 2012, 01:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1981285"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->NS2 has way way more actions which could be considered beneficial to the team and don't involve killing an ennemy at all, global score without K/D would be even more meaningful. Yet many players here refuse it with childish disdain completely missing the point of what removing K/D actualy means, it's very disapointing to see such behavior.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It is very disappointing that when I asked earlier about examples and experiences of cases where abuse about K/D has been harmful, it went unanswered. I'm still interested.
I think my point is clear enough in itself but if you do want sources I will look for them.
If you don't feel convinced by the reasons I expose and have any other view on why the RO devs chose to not display K/D ratio I would be happy to hear it.
<!--quoteo(post=1981289:date=Sep 21 2012, 03:47 AM:name=Squirreli_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squirreli_ @ Sep 21 2012, 03:47 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1981289"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It is very disappointing that when I asked earlier about examples and experiences of cases where abuse about K/D has been harmful, it went unanswered. I'm still interested.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's not about potential abuses it's about what kind of game you want to create. (and I am sorry about leaving it unanswered in the past, I simply wasn't here ;).
Let me give you an example with two other games : Dota2 and League of Legend.
Both games have a report system which allow players to ask for sanctions against others players with innapropriate behaviours.
League of Legend allows you to report people for "being bad" or leaving the game early.
Dota2 doesn't. Does it mean being good at the game is less important in Dota2 ? Does it mean leaving a game early is ok and doesn't ruin other people's game ?
It certainly doesn't, the Dota2 devs just noticed such reports don't prevent people from being bad or leaving games early, they just create a hostile and agressive atmosphere in the game. It's not about fixing an abuse here, it's about how they want their game and their community to be.
Now back to NS2 and RO.
Not displaying the K/D ratio doesn't mean a guy ramboing around the map and racking up kills is an abuse, or even a nuisance to other players. It just means the RO devs want to simulate something that more or less looks like war where people stick together and actualy try to follow the orders of their commander.
NS2 could use the same thing, people running around racking up kills don't hurt the game, they just push it in a direction which is perhaps not the one we (or at least I) would like to see.
You have to take into consideration that the current FPS market is saturated with games valorising lonewolf behaviours and "ramboing". Considering NS2 is an FPS game it is mainly targeted at this public.
Now I agree that good players will both have a hight K/D and help their team, and that being good at FPS is crucial in NS2, this is inarguable.
The problem is, the targeted public for NS2 is not used to conciliate both things, and they will undoubtedly try to favor their K/D over the victory of their team (because team victory actualy doesn't matter at all in most FPSs today), this will work neither for them (because alone you die pretty fast) neither for their team.
It will take a while for these players to actualy conciliate the two and start to be useful to their team, a long while.
The RO devs were confronted to the same problem, and they concluded that while K/D is important in the game, hiding it will help people figuring out what this game is all about faster. Not only that but it will force them to play as the devs intented.
I think there is a massive risk at release that NS2 pub games will just be plagued by people who have no idea of what this game is all about. Their FPS skills will not be the problem (they likely played many FPS before) their problem will be understanding what teamplay means.
Hiding K/D will make the learning process faster.
If you don't feel convinced by the reasons I expose and have any other view on why the RO devs chose to not display K/D ratio I would be happy to hear it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have seen a lot of opinions both in favour and against the K/D in scoreboard, but very few actual articles or opinions by game designers etc. There are people who have more credibility on these matters than us arguing in this thread, so I would much rather read up on it. Also, your post seems to borrow much authority to support your arguments from the RO devs, and I would of course like to hear it from the horses mouth, as it were. So, yes, the point is clear, but the jury is still out ;)
And just to re-iterate: I've yet to notice any note-worthy negative effects of the K/D. Since in my experience I have not felt a need to hide the K/D and since I've yet to see credible articles proposing the removal of the K/D, I'm of course going to be in favour or keeping the K/D, because I happen to rather like having that information available.
I will look for it, what I say is mostly based on a very long discussion that happened long ago on the game's forum, precisely on a similar thread as this one. I will try to find interviews etc. where it is more officialy mentionned.
and why cant people have the best of both worlds ? make it a server option ... to show or not to show everyone's K/D ...
Sometimes fades are killed by multiple people, with only the person who lands the last shot getting the points. I don't see how that is relevant to "skill" when the game does not track individual assist points. And like in NS1, the more kills you have, the more points you get, the higher up on the scoreboard you are. It's all reflective regardless if you can see the K/D of yourself or others.
<!--quoteo(post=1980538:date=Sep 19 2012, 09:56 PM:name=.ADHd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (.ADHd @ Sep 19 2012, 09:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1980538"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You want the scoreboard to reflect that you did just as much "good" as the guy who killed the fade by himself??? ROFL.... so sad dude.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The scoreboard already does. So sad dude.
<!--quoteo(post=1980538:date=Sep 19 2012, 09:56 PM:name=.ADHd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (.ADHd @ Sep 19 2012, 09:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1980538"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So, this simple example shows how getting kills is better in multiple ways.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
"Better" is subjective. A person who is with a team of people killing enemy RTs but doesn't get the last swipe, so he doesn't get the points, doesn't mean he is doing any less than the person who does.
<!--quoteo(post=1980538:date=Sep 19 2012, 09:56 PM:name=.ADHd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (.ADHd @ Sep 19 2012, 09:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1980538"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This thread doesn't deserve 7 pages. In fact, this thread is downright pathetic. I won't insult the original poster... but he may be new to first person shooters it seems....<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It doesn't seem like you're able to carry an argument without some sort of lowbrow insult. Even going as far as to say "I'm not going to insult you, except here is an insult"
People have different opinions and it seems you classify everyone who doesn't agree with you as pathetic. I have a classification for you, as well. But I don't want to insult you.
Until you can show me a study that makes this clear, I'm just going to assume you're deluding yourself into believing this to justify going 0-10 as a gorge all day erry day.
Fighting effectively <i>is </i>teamplay. Flags, resource towers, capture points ... all of those come second to killing and dying in every team based FPS ever. Unless you're playing against people way worse than you, you have to fight effectively (i.e. keep a high aggregate KDR overall, or in certain key time periods) in order to achieve the map objectives.
This argument goes in circles forever, and it's mostly because people try to come up with convoluted arguments to de-emphasize 'killing and dying in FPS games' to no particular end. Or people have a deep persecution complex and think that everyone playing for their KDR is the devil. Either way, you don't know what you're talking about :)
<b>To reiterate:</b> give evidence for your claims. Show me the idealistic game where no one can ever know their KDR and it causes everyone to play better as a team, and makes gameplay more interesting.
Until then: <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=117168&hl=" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...=117168&hl=</a>
The scoreboard already does. So sad dude.
"Better" is subjective. A person who is with a team of people killing enemy RTs but doesn't get the last swipe, so he doesn't get the points, doesn't mean he is doing any less than the person who does.
It doesn't seem like you're able to carry an argument without some sort of lowbrow insult. Even going as far as to say "I'm not going to insult you, except here is an insult"
People have different opinions and it seems you classify everyone who doesn't agree with you as pathetic. I have a classification for you, as well. But I don't want to insult you.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Lol, :(
I guess your reading comprehension is either rusty, or you didn't care to pay attention to what I said. I said "soloing" a fade... I guess you don't know what that means...
No idea what your response to the 2nd quote even means at all. It's hard to form arguments against arguments that don't make any sense.
When you talked about "better" as subjective you bring up a completely different subject from the one I was talking about. Well that plainly doesn't even make sense. That like me saying LMG is better than shotgun and you responding with "You're wrong fade swipe is best" lol. When I say that killing a fade by <i>yourself</i> (Yes, that large detail you chose to ignore) makes you a better player than someone who runs around building RT's, it isn't subjective. It's just basic logic and truth to be honest. Are both roles important for winning? Yes. If NS2 were a business do you think the warrior would be paid the same as the builder? No, because you pay people with higher skills more because they are simply more valuable. Herp.
This is just basic logic. The more effective players are at killing the better they are at the game. That is plain and simple. Building RT's and killing structures is all well and fine, but it is a tier below killing the other team that is trying to kill you. If the scoreboard doesn't show your kills vs deaths it doesn't show who is the most effective and contributing to the team in the most important way. Basically you want to put a veil over the single most important scoreboard stat to apply the "kindergarten effect". What is the kindergarten effect? Basically it's the one that says "Oh don't worry Billy, you are just as special as everyone else... everybody wins!" LAWL. That is just wrong.
Funny thing is that the point system agrees with what I am saying already, as killing a fade grants you 20 points and killing and RT gives you 15. There is a very specific reason for this... one is simply more important aka the player who did the killing was technically better and thus rewarded more.
Let's bring more depth into this argument. Say the other team has many skilled players who are great at fragging. Well all your cute examples of cute teamwork and working together means nothing. You won't even be able to get to the RT to chop it down if you can't outfrag the other team on the way. Your arguments are fatally flawed. You need good players to kill other good players to allow the less effective players to take care of the easy work. Would you put your best shooter on building duty? Please answer this question honestly and explain to me your reasoning behind your answer.
Would you put your best shooter in a position where they will build and kill structures? If not... please say why... and make an elaborate explanation. You might just think and realize you are wrong.
I hope they add assists and points given based on damage done with a small bonus to the guy who gets the kill.
I hope they add assists and points given based on damage done with a small bonus to the guy who gets the kill.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Whoever get's the last bullet still deserves more points than the person who did most damage. There are multiple reasons for this but I don't really want to get heavily into it. You can see the same concept applied in real life sports if you need examples. A hockey player might outmaneuver 6 people and take the puck all the way down to the other goal, but passes at the last moment for someone who was in a better position. All the other teammate had to do was tap the puck in for the goal. Even though the other player did most of the work the other player gets credit for the goal.
Yay kill stealing.
Uh, what.
Everything you say here is completely countered by winning mechanics other than KDR existing. I'm starting to think you're the one with ulterior motives here. A high overall KDR or certain key victories are important, but saying CTF flags always come second and that you HAVE TO have high KDR overall is false.
Please be more accurate in future pursuing your horribly presented cause. :p
Everything you say here is completely countered by winning mechanics other than KDR existing. I'm starting to think you're the one with ulterior motives here. A high overall KDR or certain key victories are important, but saying CTF flags always come second and that you HAVE TO have high KDR overall is false.
Please be more accurate in future pursuing your horribly presented cause. :p<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
okay I'll say it really simply:
if you are capping a lot in ctf without getting more kills than deaths, you're playing against terribles
Showing/hiding K/D doesn't affect a person's skill. And I think personal K/D should be shown.
<!--quoteo(post=1981631:date=Sep 21 2012, 09:40 PM:name=.ADHd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (.ADHd @ Sep 21 2012, 09:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1981631"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Building RT's and killing structures is all well and fine, but it is a tier below killing the other team that is trying to kill you.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The point system reflects this by itself.
<!--quoteo(post=1981631:date=Sep 21 2012, 09:40 PM:name=.ADHd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (.ADHd @ Sep 21 2012, 09:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1981631"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If the scoreboard doesn't show your kills vs deaths it doesn't show who is the most effective and contributing to the team in the most important way.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Highest scores are a better way to judge overall contribution, since it reflects both kills and building. How many times you can run away to an armory to heal up is irrelevant. If you're doing well, your points will reflect it.
<!--quoteo(post=1981631:date=Sep 21 2012, 09:40 PM:name=.ADHd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (.ADHd @ Sep 21 2012, 09:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1981631"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Basically you want to put a veil over the single most important scoreboard stat to apply the "kindergarten effect". What is the kindergarten effect? Basically it's the one that says "Oh don't worry Billy, you are just as special as everyone else... everybody wins!" LAWL. That is just wrong.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Again, you've missed the point of the inclusion of the point system: There is still room for competition and ego soothing with higher points earned.
<!--quoteo(post=1981631:date=Sep 21 2012, 09:40 PM:name=.ADHd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (.ADHd @ Sep 21 2012, 09:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1981631"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Funny thing is that the point system agrees with what I am saying already, as killing a fade grants you 20 points and killing and RT gives you 15. There is a very specific reason for this... one is simply more important aka the player who did the killing was technically better and thus rewarded more.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hey, you finally got it.
<!--quoteo(post=1981631:date=Sep 21 2012, 09:40 PM:name=.ADHd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (.ADHd @ Sep 21 2012, 09:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1981631"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Let's bring more depth into this argument. Say the other team has many skilled players who are great at fragging. Well all your cute examples of cute teamwork and working together means nothing. You won't even be able to get to the RT to chop it down if you can't outfrag the other team on the way. Your arguments are fatally flawed. You need good players to kill other good players to allow the less effective players to take care of the easy work. Would you put your best shooter on building duty? Please answer this question honestly and explain to me your reasoning behind your answer. Would you put your best shooter in a position where they will build and kill structures? If not... please say why... and make an elaborate explanation. You might just think and realize you are wrong.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, you're cute!
Also, the scoreboard reflects everything you're saying about fragging and the best shooter and everything else related to doing well. And a visible K/D ratio won't help people aim, so I'm not really sure what you're implying with that.
Yeah, because going around killing every cyst on the map and getting the highest score will soothe the ego's of baddies.
Goob job! You sat around killing RT's and cysts while the rest of the team killed fades and pushed a hive and won the game but hey.... you have the highest points. You clearly are the best player and the guy who went 23-0 but didn't waste his time killing cysts has a huge ego obviously.
Problem is fundamental. Good players get high KDR's and see the game from a higher perspective. Bad players get envious and want to feel important... so they come on the forums and complain that KDR is ruining teamplay. I understand. Maybe one day you will too.
Kindergarten Selection 2. Where everybody is important and wins! Even the cyst killers! Don't let Jonny make you feel less important with his 40-1 score. All those RT's and cysts you killed mattered in the end... you are important Jim. Have a gold star.
You're very dramatic in your hypothetical situations. You also can't do math. If there are people getting 20, 25, 30+ points for killing fades and hives, the person getting 5 points a cyst doesn't a have a chance to have as high of a score. And the aliens will be so hurt by the ones doing all the killing, there won't be any cysts left for this mythical cyst killer to kill. Plus, you make it out as if cyst killing is worthless, but to use your own logic, there is a reason you are rewarded for it.
<!--quoteo(post=1981676:date=Sep 22 2012, 01:43 AM:name=.ADHd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (.ADHd @ Sep 22 2012, 01:43 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1981676"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Problem is fundamental. Good players get high KDR's and see the game from a higher perspective. Bad players get envious and want to feel important... so they come on the forums and complain that KDR is ruining teamplay. I understand. Maybe one day you will too.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Problem is egotistical. You think anyone who wants the K/D to be hidden are poor players that want to hide their shame, rather than for any other reason that isn't so personal, while gloating about your own amour-propre in the process.
<!--quoteo(post=1981676:date=Sep 22 2012, 01:43 AM:name=.ADHd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (.ADHd @ Sep 22 2012, 01:43 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1981676"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Kindergarten Selection 2. Where everybody is important and wins! Even the cyst killers! Don't let Jonny make you feel less important with his 40-1 score. All those RT's and cysts you killed mattered in the end... you are important Jim. Have a gold star.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Again, you're very dramatic.
Also, people don't base estimates only on K/D, unless they are complete retards, but it is a useful tool. Sure, you see someone constantly doing useful things, you tend to agree that the guy is useful even if their K/D isn't on the top of the list. No need to be an idiot? I think it has been explained over and over again by proponents of K/D that it is an imperfect tool that is not to be taken as the only truth about a players worth?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, so easy to deride something, but that won't make it false for all that. And you are understanding it just after that and giving an argument against KDR. You can use your own judgment, KDR is an imperfect tool that is not to be taken as the only truth about a players worth. And this is easy to do without knowing his ratio.
<!--quoteo(post=1981658:date=Sep 22 2012, 05:34 AM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ Sep 22 2012, 05:34 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1981658"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->okay I'll say it really simply:
if you are capping a lot in ctf without getting more kills than deaths, you're playing against terribles<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Tribes.
<!--quoteo(post=1981587:date=Sep 22 2012, 12:34 AM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ Sep 22 2012, 12:34 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1981587"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Removing visual KDR indicators doesn't "promote teamplay" just because you really want it to.
Until you can show me a study that makes this clear, I'm just going to assume you're deluding yourself into believing this to justify going 0-10 as a gorge all day erry day.
Fighting effectively <i>is </i>teamplay. Flags, resource towers, capture points ... all of those come second to killing and dying in every team based FPS ever. Unless you're playing against people way worse than you, you have to fight effectively (i.e. keep a high aggregate KDR overall, or in certain key time periods) in order to achieve the map objectives.
This argument goes in circles forever, and it's mostly because people try to come up with convoluted arguments to de-emphasize 'killing and dying in FPS games' to no particular end. Or people have a deep persecution complex and think that everyone playing for their KDR is the devil. Either way, you don't know what you're talking about :)
<b>To reiterate:</b> give evidence for your claims. Show me the idealistic game where no one can ever know their KDR and it causes everyone to play better as a team, and makes gameplay more interesting.
Until then: <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=117168&hl=" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...=117168&hl=</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What if I told you that I work in video games and that I am a gamer since 20 years? Would that make my assumptions better?
Developers are just gamers who think about games they have in front of them, players that think about game design and mechanisms. And everyone can do that just by using their brain.
It's like quoting a philosopher and hiding behind him "Go read that and you'll see".
But if you understood him you can go beyond his thought and don't need to quote him every time.
And in fact, I do work in video games, and am a player since 20 years.
Why do Tripwire, Splash damage, Valve, Hi-rez, Epic games did deleted the KDR of their games, don't you think they have thought about it? It's a game decision, it's not something you throw out of the window like that. All of their games is team based gameplay with objectives and all are... FPS. And not caring about stats is the way to go with that kind of gameplay. Like I explained myself in my first post, there is more pros and less cons when you delete that kind of info, than when you display it, and they are not trifling.
KDR is not that important in those games, they are not representative of the performances and could even affect players with good KDR with self-esteem they don't deserve, because they didn't really serve their team well or the way they should have. And the opposite is also true. It can be relevant to the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning–Kruger_effect" target="_blank">Dunning-Kruger</a> effect.
"Show me the idealistic game where no one can ever know their KDR and it causes everyone to play better as a team, and makes gameplay more interesting."
We already told you some. And I did once again.
And just for the quote : Splash Damage - Brink: <a href="http://forums.warchestgames.com/showthread.php/23048-Kill-Death-Stats" target="_blank">Kill / Death Stats (with devs)</a> and <a href="http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/134743/on_the_brink_of_change.php" target="_blank">Gamasutra - On The Brink Of Change</a>
In fact if you search on the web, you can see <a href="http://blacklight-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=387651" target="_blank">that discussion</a> in <a href="http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2489531" target="_blank">some</a> <a href="http://www.gamespot.com/brink/forum/concerning-no-kdr-on-the-scoreboard-58968216/?page=1" target="_blank">other</a> <a href="http://forums.ageofconan.com/showthread.php?t=234160" target="_blank">places</a>.
Nah, an average bonus is enough.
When killing a Fade the guy that gets 2 shotgun blasts in the Fade's face is a bit more important than guys shooting their rifles randomly and getting the kill.
<!--quoteo(post=1981676:date=Sep 22 2012, 08:43 AM:name=.ADHd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (.ADHd @ Sep 22 2012, 08:43 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1981676"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yeah, because going around killing every cyst on the map and getting the highest score will soothe the ego's of baddies.
Goob job! You sat around killing RT's and cysts while the rest of the team killed fades and pushed a hive and won the game but hey.... you have the highest points. You clearly are the best player and the guy who went 23-0 but didn't waste his time killing cysts has a huge ego obviously.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Considering cysts give only +2, the amount of skulks you'll need to avoid and the hundreds of cysts you'll have to kill, they earned it.
And killing RTs is what effectively wins game, otherwise the Fades can just get replaced.
A rambo marine that manages to kill 6+ RTs will probably top the charts even if he has 0-15, but he has effectively killed the enemy economy, allowing your team to dominate.
Killing skulks serves no other purpose other than advancing to kill more critical things, that actually cost Tres.
<!--quoteo(post=1981676:date=Sep 22 2012, 08:43 AM:name=.ADHd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (.ADHd @ Sep 22 2012, 08:43 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1981676"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Problem is fundamental. Good players get high KDR's and see the game from a higher perspective. Bad players get envious and want to feel important... so they come on the forums and complain that KDR is ruining teamplay. I understand. Maybe one day you will too.
Kindergarten Selection 2. Where everybody is important and wins! Even the cyst killers! Don't let Jonny make you feel less important with his 40-1 score. All those RT's and cysts you killed mattered in the end... you are important Jim. Have a gold star.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm for keeping KDR as well but undermining the score is silly.
Some people will care about score and will ignore KDR, some will care about KDR and will ignore score.
The system needs some tweaks, but currently, the guys with the better KDR will on average have the top scores as well.
...
And in fact, I do work in video games, and am a player since 20 years.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
okay dude I believe you
I make professional video cards and I've played video games for 20 years as well. Can we move on?
<!--quoteo(post=1981718:date=Sep 22 2012, 06:41 AM:name=Regnareb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Regnareb @ Sep 22 2012, 06:41 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1981718"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->KDR is not that important in those games, they are not representative of the performances and could even affect players with good KDR with self-esteem they don't deserve, because they didn't really serve their team well or the way they should have. And the opposite is also true. It can be relevant to the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning–Kruger_effect" target="_blank">Dunning-Kruger</a> effect.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What do you mean 'the opposite is also true'? Is that referring to bleeding-heart "support" players who use poor reasoning and random wiki pages to justify being bad at video games?
I don't see how Valve has taken KDR out of their games, either. TF2 and CSGO both show it...maybe other games like DOTA2 don't since they're not FPS...
If I go by those posts on the Brink forums, then games with KDR shown have zero teamplay and <a href="http://forums.warchestgames.com/showthread.php/23048-Kill-Death-Stats?p=256387&viewfull=1#post256387" target="_blank">never had any</a>. But that's an obvious contradiction because quake-style CTF games, old TF games, CS and so on are all analysed heavily with KDR. The people competing in those games at a high level aren't ignoring objectives or working alone, but they all strive for a high KDR because it unlocks the ability to do those other things reliably.
If you work in the games industry and have real insight, explain it. I'm not going to read a bunch of threads from other forums that are indentical to the NS2 KDR threads.
Like I say, show me where a game developer (like the one you work for!) did a large-scale study of users with regard to KDR, and found real results not tainted by forum warriors spinning fancy tales.
<b>Reminder:</b> dunning-kruger is for when people claim that KDR is simply about boasting and that it's not really important.
I'd rather see the whole pointsystem overhauled, maybe just remove the kill column and implement assist points for kills.
Imho right now one of the biggest flaws is the fact that "last bullet gets all points", so it's usually a lucky one getting a ton of points while the other players receive nothing at all.
Instead it would be way better to remove "kills" and instead make players receive points based on damage done. If 4 Marines in a room shoot a Onos and it dies, then all the marines will get that addicting "+points" pop up on their screen, based on the amount of damage they did to the Onos.
The amount of points received this way will also directly allow the player to judge his impact on the kill, did he do a lot of damage (lots of points) or did he just get one last hit in (few points). Having score:death ratio matter is also way more forgiving for players that do actually play objective oriented and score lots of points.
I make professional video cards and I've played video games for 20 years as well. Can we move on?
What do you mean 'the opposite is also true'? Is that referring to bleeding-heart "support" players who use poor reasoning and random wiki pages to justify being bad at video games?
I don't see how Valve has taken KDR out of their games, either. TF2 and CSGO both show it...maybe other games like DOTA2 don't since they're not FPS...
If I go by those posts on the Brink forums, then games with KDR shown have zero teamplay and <a href="http://forums.warchestgames.com/showthread.php/23048-Kill-Death-Stats?p=256387&viewfull=1#post256387" target="_blank">never had any</a>. But that's an obvious contradiction because quake-style CTF games, old TF games, CS and so on are all analysed heavily with KDR. The people competing in those games at a high level aren't ignoring objectives or working alone, but they all strive for a high KDR because it unlocks the ability to do those other things reliably.
If you work in the games industry and have real insight, explain it. I'm not going to read a bunch of threads from other forums that are indentical to the NS2 KDR threads.
Like I say, show me where a game developer (like the one you work for!) did a large-scale study of users with regard to KDR, and found real results not tainted by forum warriors spinning fancy tales.
<b>Reminder:</b> dunning-kruger is for when people claim that KDR is simply about boasting and that it's not really important.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You don't even read what others are writing to you...
No TF2 do not show the KDR, no 'the opposite is also true' refers to the players with a bad KDR who were actually playing a lot better than players with a "good" KDR.
In DOTA2 the KDR is even more important than in FPS, it's in the core of the game.
Yeah competing players do not need Hints and Rookie mode, obvious no? But we are not really talking about that here, in general, in tournament and esport the game is never really the same as the one in pubs. You have more tools, to cast, to stats, to... anything. You still could have KDR showed for tournaments and others, I see zero problems with that.
Here, it is more about the pubs play, from where, generally, the cash flow and the base players will come for Unknownworlds, and that will impact a majority of players, servers and their general ambiance directly.
I had two links to developers talking about Brink too. Just... read, please. Even if it is just <a href="http://forums.steamgames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2780777" target="_blank">random threads</a> on random forums, it's still good to read to understand the others points of view in different forms. Then think by yourself, analyze, think again, etc. until death happens :p
rebirth > Yep, there should definitely have some kind of assist in NS2, but I think (really hope) it's planned, like the bugged points attributed when you are building: a guy building a structure alone for 98% can get 0 points while the one beginning at 98% can get the points.
Well splitting kills only works if you remove kills and replace them with only getting points. Because splitting the 1.0 value for a kill into equal parts for all people would result in a pretty funky looking kill column with lots of decimals.
But i think overall it could be a pretty neat solution to just remove the kill column and work with "damage done" that's counted into the points score. Want to see how good a player is? Just look at his Score:Death ratio to get an idea. The great thing about this: Even the suicide players that only go after high value targets will end up getting rated "good" that way.
The next step could be to remove the death column completely, sending the very clear message to all players: You are just a small cog in a big wheel that's easily replaced, now move out and do at least some damage before you lose your trivial life!
But i don't see that happening as long as we have a counter-intuitive design decisions in place, like "no res while dead".
Getting no res while being dead is an valid argument to show deaths, because deaths directly lead to a way worse performance overall due to the lack of resource income on top of the team having one less player on the field. It still doesn't explain the broken logic behind having "no res while dead" in the first place.. (Yes it's broken, but that's another discussion)
Why remove it? NS2 is a Hybrid, but it has been said that it is first and foremost an FPS. Also it would make the game pretty ###### for the inevitable release of combat mode...
Instead of removing K/D stats, how about just having a tally for score due to kills, and score due to building? Or better yet - damage dealt to structures and players, and health given to structures and players. This would be a better reflection of a player's presence on the field, as there are plenty of times I've gotten a bunch of kills due to being the last one to shoot or bite, or have had kills stolen by someone else.