MouseThe Lighter Side of PessimismJoin Date: 2002-03-02Member: 263Members, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
<!--quoteo(post=1999217:date=Oct 29 2012, 10:32 AM:name=Benson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Benson @ Oct 29 2012, 10:32 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1999217"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I believe the solution is not to nerf the onos, or remove the ability to drop onos eggs, but rather to buff the other options like chamber upgrades, and the other lifeforms in general so that it is just as advantageous to grab lerks and fades as it is to dump all the teams res on onos<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
At the moment the alien upgrade system is quite fragile. I mean, it's fair enough to give marines the option of sniping the chamber upgrades, but given how tight of a budget the aliens tend to work on, making them re-purchase upgrades is a bit harsh.
The Onos is the only lifeform that can stand up to Shotgun marines who can aim. It's not surprising we're seeing them rushed out in high level play, especially when the alternative res sinks (crags, shifts, and shades for example) are useless, situational, and trivially countered (respectively).
Buffing alien upgrades is going to unbalance the entire game pretty badly, and is generally very fragile territory.
IMO the very simple and logical solution is to move all egg/equipment drops to 3 tech points (3 hives / 3 command chairs). No equipment drops whatsoever before 3 tech points.
That way p.res will be spend on personal items, while t.res will be spent on team upgrades, as they were... kind of designed?
P.S. As I mentioned before, messing with the onos itself too much will also be quite disastrous IMO. It's an EXTREMELY expensive end-game life form, which doesn't appear before at least 9:00 when p.res is used, so it should deliver the firepower that it currently does for that huge investment of p.res.
Not to bash Colt, but every official game tournament I've been in has limits on what you can and can't say in chat. Most of the time public chat is forbidden except for team captains and the end-game gg from team members.
A non-captain calling GG before it's official sounds like grounds for a warning at the very least, since it sends a confusing message to the other team. What if the other team saw it, thought "OK" and disconnected? They would technically be forfeiting. Yes, there would be an appeal blah, blah, but it's a mess no one wants to deal with.
Tournaments with prizes have strict rules. Sorry, dude.
They need to get rid of the endless weapon recycling for sure too.
Just yesterday I saw Charlie comment on a marine losing a shotgun by saying ' Wow that's a big blow to the marines and that player's p.res'. Does Charlie not know marines can just pick up weapons again, infinitely?
I love this game to death, I'm sure every one here does, we all want nothing more than this game to be where it deserves to be... But for that to happen, they're going to have to be a little more responsive to the community's balance concerns (Let's be honest, the onos egg issue was brought up several patches ago already, by comp and pub players alike). They won't ever be able to pick up on balance issues as fast as the community does,, so putting a little more faith in that community's judgement shouldn't be too much to ask.
I can't believe Colt was banned for that remark. I mean, I do understand that the casters are putting on a show for people who have not bought the game yet and don't want to see the competitive community stating balance imperfections to a mass audience, but why a ban?
Just seems the wrong road to take, banning your competitive players for stating their opinion.
EDIT: <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Guys, as a minor warning: Try to keep this thread on topic. I can understand why the aforementioned bannings can be considered an issue, but this thread isn't the place to discuss them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Back on topic then: 5:00 Oni are a huge pain and seeing that strategy being used 90% of the time is kinda getting old.
rhombusLerk QueenJoin Date: 2011-06-23Member: 106055Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1999229:date=Oct 28 2012, 08:38 PM:name=Mouse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mouse @ Oct 28 2012, 08:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1999229"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->At the moment the alien upgrade system is quite fragile. I mean, it's fair enough to give marines the option of sniping the chamber upgrades, but given how tight of a budget the aliens tend to work on, making them re-purchase upgrades is a bit harsh.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Even the team cooldowns are severely screwed up. Aliens are melee and rely on mobility, yet Marines have more mobility enhancing tech / abilities than aliens do (PG/beacon/etc).. Aliens need to close gaps and engage in melee, yet one of their Commander cooldowns is just a wall. It's incredibly nonsense that Marines are so much more mobile than Aliens are especially in smaller maps such as summit. These abilities should be a necessity in order to keep Marine expansion going (like PG tech on docking) rather than a huge perk to playing on that team. There is a lot of things that need to be addressed to be very honest and it feels like the wrong tweaks are being made to move things in the right direction.
MouseThe Lighter Side of PessimismJoin Date: 2002-03-02Member: 263Members, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
Guys, as a minor warning: Try to keep this thread on topic. I can understand why the aforementioned bannings can be considered an issue, but this thread isn't the place to discuss them.
<!--quoteo(post=1999174:date=Oct 28 2012, 08:02 PM:name=beyond.wudge)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (beyond.wudge @ Oct 28 2012, 08:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1999174"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Then again, maybe Marine teams will learn to counter the onos play and people will stop over-reacting. I think the Onos drop is a great idea that works really well. It is a totally different way to approach the game.
Could it be refined? Maybe. But if we nerf every powerful thing in the game before people have a chance to overcome it we'll end up with a very bland game.
And bland games get left on the shelf.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Have you played NS2 competitively? What team do you play for?
<!--quoteo(post=1999229:date=Oct 28 2012, 05:38 PM:name=Mouse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mouse @ Oct 28 2012, 05:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1999229"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->At the moment the alien upgrade system is quite fragile. I mean, it's fair enough to give marines the option of sniping the chamber upgrades, but given how tight of a budget the aliens tend to work on, making them re-purchase upgrades is a bit harsh.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is why i advocate returning to the 3 chamber upgrade system, this way the aliens don't have to pay for each upgrade specifically, but they do have to invest in several chambers to get the full effect each upgrade. This makes it possible to reduce the effectivness of a whole set up upgrades, without requiring the entire upgrade to be researched again if the chamber gets sniped, as well as it could allow for the upgrades themselves to be improved since the total cost of, say level 3 cara, would be greater than getting cara is now.
It seems like this would be a lot more forgiving, allow for a wider variety of upgrades to be used, and bring make more strategies viable since better upgrades = better lifeforms
<!--quoteo(post=1999243:date=Oct 28 2012, 08:48 PM:name=Mouse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mouse @ Oct 28 2012, 08:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1999243"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Guys, as a minor warning: Try to keep this thread on topic. I can understand why the aforementioned bannings can be considered an issue, but this thread isn't the place to discuss them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Where would be the place to discuss them because they're a pretty huge concern to the competitive community.
Is it ok to discuss the banning of all-in (one of about 10 teams currently playing) in the competitive forums?
<!--quoteo(post=1999240:date=Oct 28 2012, 07:46 PM:name=Arkanti)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Arkanti @ Oct 28 2012, 07:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1999240"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think he's talking about the stream's chat Deadzone, not in game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh, was there more chat after the game? Sorry, I turned it off after the games were over. I'm rather surprised they'd ban someone from a twitch channel, though.
<!--quoteo(post=1999247:date=Oct 28 2012, 07:49 PM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Oct 28 2012, 07:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1999247"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Where would be the place to discuss them because they're a pretty huge concern to the competitive community.
Is it ok to discuss the banning of all-in (one of about 10 teams currently playing) in the competitive forums?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think he means you need to make a thread for it, not hijack this one. General, Competitive, it shouldn't matter.
MouseThe Lighter Side of PessimismJoin Date: 2002-03-02Member: 263Members, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
<!--quoteo(post=1999247:date=Oct 29 2012, 10:49 AM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Oct 29 2012, 10:49 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1999247"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Where would be the place to discuss them because they're a pretty huge concern to the competitive community.
Is it ok to discuss the banning of all-in (one of about 10 teams currently playing) in the competitive forums?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> While I can't presume to speak for the dev team/the organizers of the tourney, yes. As long as the discussion was kept reasonably civil, discussing the bannings (and their implications) on the Competitive Forum should be fine.
<!--quoteo(post=1999222:date=Oct 28 2012, 08:35 PM:name=MisterNubs)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MisterNubs @ Oct 28 2012, 08:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1999222"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Because that would be too logical and would increase the fun factor of other lifeforms (IE not dying in a split second when playing anything other than onos vs shotguns).
We can't have that.
Sorry, but requiring 3 hives to drop an onos eggs is a terrible idea. How often did you see Aliens securing 3 hives (think patch 223)? I'm disappointed that onos had to be nerfed by a "smidgen" too. Whats to stop marines dropping dual exosuits (besides having to research them first). Theoretically nothing, but they don't because other upgrades are vital to their success. Which is exactly the opposite for aliens because vastly majority of the alien tech is absolutely worthless, and because of that, aliens are virtually "swimming" in t.res (on 3 rts because anything more is too difficult to maintain) because there is next to zero tech worth spending it on, so they drop onos eggs instead. Crag and shift hives, and carapace, celerity and leap. You've just covered about 90% of alien gameplay/requirements with that tech.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're wrong that this is a bad idea. In fact, it is the best idea that has been presented.
Aliens would still be able to evolve onos with pres at a reasonable time (10-15m instead of 6-8m). If you go watch the last game of the NA tournament, you will see us (inv) start an onos egg ~6m on VEIL with just 3 RTs. We also bought leap before this onos. Do you think this is balanced? Do you think aliens winning 5 out of 5 games in the NA finals is balanced? Do you think that every competitive (ie not steamroll) match in the NA launch tournament was won by aliens' 2 hive onos or a base rush?
<!--quoteo(post=1999228:date=Oct 28 2012, 04:37 PM:name=rantology)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rantology @ Oct 28 2012, 04:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1999228"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->end game siege breaker unit + 6:00 into a game + ???? = profit
rocket science<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> it's fine because it's asymmetric which means it's good
Early Onos wouldn't be a big deal if Onoses weren't balanced to be endgame units. And they're balanced as endgame units out of necessity because aliens don't have any defense scaling, so otherwise Onoses would get shredded by late game marines. As I've said many times before, aliens need a passive defense upgrade to match damage scaling of the marines - trying to fight that small concession to team symmetry is causing too many game design problems. If this were done, then the base Onos with no upgrades could be made weaker and would not be so overpowering in the early game.
I also feel that alien structures aren't nearly important enough right now. There should be a compelling reason for the alien comm to spend his money fortifying the map with structures instead of just dumping it all into lifeforms. This makes the game more interesting for everyone, the alien comm especially.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You're wrong that this is a bad idea. In fact, it is the best idea that has been presented.
Aliens would still be able to evolve onos with pres at a reasonable time (10-15m instead of 6-8m).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
To be fair, that sounds more like a plea to take out t.res lifeform drops all together, since the p.res times are reasonable anyway. I honestly don't believe putting the onos at 3 hives is the solution, like MisterNubs says, that's pretty much the equivalent of removing it from the game altogether. Instead of watering down the alien gameplay even more, by taking away options, they should make other options equally or more viable by the time that onos egg is available A simple increase of the onos egg drop by for example 2 minutes, through some duration or cost, could already have a big impact on its current over-viability.
Though that's only half the solution, there's so many other changes that need to be made to the alien side.
<!--quoteo(post=1999262:date=Oct 28 2012, 09:00 PM:name=Xarius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xarius @ Oct 28 2012, 09:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1999262"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->To be fair, that sounds more like a plea to take out t.res lifeform drops all together, since the p.res times are reasonable anyway. I honestly don't believe putting the onos at 3 hives is the solution, like MisterNubs says, that's pretty much the equivalent of removing it from the game altogether. Instead of watering down the alien gameplay even more, by taking away options, they should make other options equally or more viable by the time that onos egg is available A simple increase of the onos egg drop by for example 2 minutes, through some duration or cost, could already have a big impact on its current over-viability.
Though that's only half the solution, there's so many other changes that need to be made to the alien side.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It limits the tres drops to game periods when they'd be balanced for the other players. An onos at 6m is an end game unit showing up early game. Where as if you could only drop fades at this point, you'd have a midgame unit showing up slightly before it should otherwise normally show up.
<!--quoteo(post=1999261:date=Oct 29 2012, 01:59 AM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zek @ Oct 29 2012, 01:59 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1999261"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Early Onos wouldn't be a big deal if Onoses weren't balanced to be endgame units. And they're balanced as endgame units out of necessity because aliens don't have any defense scaling, so otherwise Onoses would get shredded by late game marines. As I've said many times before, aliens need a passive defense upgrade to match damage scaling of the marines - trying to fight that small concession to team symmetry is causing too many game design problems. If this were done, then the base Onos with no upgrades could be made weaker and would not be so overpowering in the early game.
I also feel that alien structures aren't nearly important enough right now. There should be a compelling reason for the alien comm to spend his money fortifying the map with structures instead of just dumping it all into lifeforms. This makes the game more interesting for everyone, the alien comm especially.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> What about lifeform maturation of some sort? Or something other than just flat upgrades to alien damage.
SOme mechnaic to ramp them up beyond the chambers which makes them more endgame appropriate and mid/early game not-op.
If you want more options, allow marine commander to drop armor 3 dual exo at 6:00, because that's kind of the counter/equivalent to a carapace onos with a gorge behind it.
Alien com drops onos? Marine com drops dual exo. Marines have no quick counter to the ramp they face in games right now. They're fighting skulks without upgrades mostly (leap maybe), and then suddenly a carapace onos. The progression is kind of not happening there...
P.S. And I don't think t.res removal until 3 hives would necessarily limit strategy. Onos drops followed by carapace have allowed aliens to steamroll nearly every marine team this weekend, pretty much negating any attempts of "strategy" by either team. Perhaps without those onos drops, the tournament altogether might've been more interesting and varied in strategies used?
Why not just make t.res drops more expensive then? It puts the timings closer to the p.res timings, making them less of a gamechanger, while still keeping both higher lifeforms at 2 hives? Or come up with another way to delay the timing that isn't through cost. (Hive maturity? P.res level?)
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you want more options, allow marine commander to drop armor 3 dual exo at 6:00, because that's kind of the counter/equivalent to a carapace onos with a gorge behind it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That would mean untying the protolab from either the second CC or Adv armory, else there is no way you can ever get a fast exosuit or Jp. And that will open up a whole new can of worms I reckon. I don't think it's wise to balance the onos t.res drop timing by simply lowering the timing for marine endgame tech. Terrible terrible gameplay will ensue.
<!--quoteo(post=1999257:date=Oct 28 2012, 08:54 PM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Oct 28 2012, 08:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1999257"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You're wrong that this is a bad idea. In fact, it is the best idea that has been presented.
Aliens would still be able to evolve onos with pres at a reasonable time (10-15m instead of 6-8m). If you go watch the last game of the NA tournament, you will see us (inv) start an onos egg ~6m on VEIL with just 3 RTs. We also bought leap before this onos. Do you think this is balanced? Do you think aliens winning 5 out of 5 games in the NA finals is balanced? Do you think that every competitive (ie not steamroll) match in the NA launch tournament was won by aliens' 2 hive onos or a base rush?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So when Aliens are stuck with 2 hives, have researched the most important upgrades (celerity/carapace) and lifeform tech, but are unable to siege one of the marines bases due to gl spam, turret spam, obs, and the rest of the tools that makes marines amazing base turtlers, they're screwed because the com can't drop an onos eggs due to stupid restrictions. No wait, that's because anything but onos (and the upgrades) are complete jokes.
Actually, you know what I really want? Dropping lifeforms and weapons gone from both sides, its idiotic. Recycling weapons needs to go too.
Also, I can give a rat's rear end about competitive matches in a game clearly no where near balanced enough that it requires "restrictions" per tournament.
You know, the only complaint I ever heard about the old attack upgrades on Whips was that it was to symmetric, that both teams had opportunities to upgrade the overall strength of their units instead of researching new buildings and attacks. In the face of these major balance issues, that argument just doesn't seem very compelling.
I'd love to see UWE implement some sort of analog slider system for the Khammander to trade armor strength, attack speed, and movement speed for his lifeforms down the line, with further research allowing greater specialization or more global strength to trade around. For now though, we need something basic to allow Skulks, Lerks, Fades, Oni to scale up and down with the game.
I don't get why 90% of the comments are 'Don't change 5 minute Onos; buff other Alien options to be as powerful as that'. How could that possibly work? Example scenarios:
1. Everything gets buffed- not up to 5 minute Onos level, but enough that they're noticeably better than now: Five minute Onos remains just as viable as it was pre-buffs, so it is still used all the time because it's still a winning strategy.
2. Everything gets buffed up to 5 minute Onos level: Marines get rolled hard because Aliens become obscenely powerful five minutes into the game, whether because they're STILL rolling 5 minute Onos or because the equivalent is wrecking everything.
3. Everything gets buffed over 5 minute Onos level to promote other playstyles: Marine team forfiets 5 seconds in because they don't feel like wasting the three minutes of their life that the match will take.
Don't know why they got rid of triple chambers to scale upgrades. It was perfect.
But now we are getting side-tracked. Unless of course we look at the onos egg issue as only a small part of a much bigger problem, which arguably the case.
<!--quoteo(post=1999271:date=Oct 28 2012, 07:06 PM:name=Xarius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xarius @ Oct 28 2012, 07:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1999271"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That would mean untying the protolab from either the second CC or Adv armory, else there is no way you can ever get a fast exosuit or Jp. And that will open up a whole new can of worms I reckon. I don't think it's wise to balance the onos t.res drop timing by simply lowering the timing for marine endgame tech. Terrible terrible gameplay will ensue.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, kind of like untying life forms from the p.res required to evolve them, and the terrible terrible gameplay which ensues right now?
The onos is an end game unit meant to siege and take undefended positions down rapidly. The counter to it is an end game unit meant to siege and take undefended positons down rapidly.
Comments
rocket science
At the moment the alien upgrade system is quite fragile. I mean, it's fair enough to give marines the option of sniping the chamber upgrades, but given how tight of a budget the aliens tend to work on, making them re-purchase upgrades is a bit harsh.
IMO the very simple and logical solution is to move all egg/equipment drops to 3 tech points (3 hives / 3 command chairs). No equipment drops whatsoever before 3 tech points.
That way p.res will be spend on personal items, while t.res will be spent on team upgrades, as they were... kind of designed?
P.S. As I mentioned before, messing with the onos itself too much will also be quite disastrous IMO. It's an EXTREMELY expensive end-game life form, which doesn't appear before at least 9:00 when p.res is used, so it should deliver the firepower that it currently does for that huge investment of p.res.
A non-captain calling GG before it's official sounds like grounds for a warning at the very least, since it sends a confusing message to the other team. What if the other team saw it, thought "OK" and disconnected? They would technically be forfeiting. Yes, there would be an appeal blah, blah, but it's a mess no one wants to deal with.
Tournaments with prizes have strict rules. Sorry, dude.
Just yesterday I saw Charlie comment on a marine losing a shotgun by saying ' Wow that's a big blow to the marines and that player's p.res'. Does Charlie not know marines can just pick up weapons again, infinitely?
I love this game to death, I'm sure every one here does, we all want nothing more than this game to be where it deserves to be... But for that to happen, they're going to have to be a little more responsive to the community's balance concerns (Let's be honest, the onos egg issue was brought up several patches ago already, by comp and pub players alike). They won't ever be able to pick up on balance issues as fast as the community does,, so putting a little more faith in that community's judgement shouldn't be too much to ask.
Just seems the wrong road to take, banning your competitive players for stating their opinion.
EDIT:
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Guys, as a minor warning: Try to keep this thread on topic. I can understand why the aforementioned bannings can be considered an issue, but this thread isn't the place to discuss them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Back on topic then: 5:00 Oni are a huge pain and seeing that strategy being used 90% of the time is kinda getting old.
Even the team cooldowns are severely screwed up. Aliens are melee and rely on mobility, yet Marines have more mobility enhancing tech / abilities than aliens do (PG/beacon/etc).. Aliens need to close gaps and engage in melee, yet one of their Commander cooldowns is just a wall. It's incredibly nonsense that Marines are so much more mobile than Aliens are especially in smaller maps such as summit. These abilities should be a necessity in order to keep Marine expansion going (like PG tech on docking) rather than a huge perk to playing on that team. There is a lot of things that need to be addressed to be very honest and it feels like the wrong tweaks are being made to move things in the right direction.
Could it be refined? Maybe. But if we nerf every powerful thing in the game before people have a chance to overcome it we'll end up with a very bland game.
And bland games get left on the shelf.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Have you played NS2 competitively? What team do you play for?
This is why i advocate returning to the 3 chamber upgrade system, this way the aliens don't have to pay for each upgrade specifically, but they do have to invest in several chambers to get the full effect each upgrade. This makes it possible to reduce the effectivness of a whole set up upgrades, without requiring the entire upgrade to be researched again if the chamber gets sniped, as well as it could allow for the upgrades themselves to be improved since the total cost of, say level 3 cara, would be greater than getting cara is now.
It seems like this would be a lot more forgiving, allow for a wider variety of upgrades to be used, and bring make more strategies viable since better upgrades = better lifeforms
Where would be the place to discuss them because they're a pretty huge concern to the competitive community.
Is it ok to discuss the banning of all-in (one of about 10 teams currently playing) in the competitive forums?
Oh, was there more chat after the game? Sorry, I turned it off after the games were over. I'm rather surprised they'd ban someone from a twitch channel, though.
Is it ok to discuss the banning of all-in (one of about 10 teams currently playing) in the competitive forums?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think he means you need to make a thread for it, not hijack this one. General, Competitive, it shouldn't matter.
Is it ok to discuss the banning of all-in (one of about 10 teams currently playing) in the competitive forums?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
While I can't presume to speak for the dev team/the organizers of the tourney, yes. As long as the discussion was kept reasonably civil, discussing the bannings (and their implications) on the Competitive Forum should be fine.
We can't have that.
Sorry, but requiring 3 hives to drop an onos eggs is a terrible idea. How often did you see Aliens securing 3 hives (think patch 223)? I'm disappointed that onos had to be nerfed by a "smidgen" too. Whats to stop marines dropping dual exosuits (besides having to research them first). Theoretically nothing, but they don't because other upgrades are vital to their success. Which is exactly the opposite for aliens because vastly majority of the alien tech is absolutely worthless, and because of that, aliens are virtually "swimming" in t.res (on 3 rts because anything more is too difficult to maintain) because there is next to zero tech worth spending it on, so they drop onos eggs instead. Crag and shift hives, and carapace, celerity and leap. You've just covered about 90% of alien gameplay/requirements with that tech.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're wrong that this is a bad idea. In fact, it is the best idea that has been presented.
Aliens would still be able to evolve onos with pres at a reasonable time (10-15m instead of 6-8m). If you go watch the last game of the NA tournament, you will see us (inv) start an onos egg ~6m on VEIL with just 3 RTs. We also bought leap before this onos. Do you think this is balanced? Do you think aliens winning 5 out of 5 games in the NA finals is balanced? Do you think that every competitive (ie not steamroll) match in the NA launch tournament was won by aliens' 2 hive onos or a base rush?
rocket science<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
it's fine because it's asymmetric which means it's good
I also feel that alien structures aren't nearly important enough right now. There should be a compelling reason for the alien comm to spend his money fortifying the map with structures instead of just dumping it all into lifeforms. This makes the game more interesting for everyone, the alien comm especially.
Aliens would still be able to evolve onos with pres at a reasonable time (10-15m instead of 6-8m).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
To be fair, that sounds more like a plea to take out t.res lifeform drops all together, since the p.res times are reasonable anyway. I honestly don't believe putting the onos at 3 hives is the solution, like MisterNubs says, that's pretty much the equivalent of removing it from the game altogether. Instead of watering down the alien gameplay even more, by taking away options, they should make other options equally or more viable by the time that onos egg is available A simple increase of the onos egg drop by for example 2 minutes, through some duration or cost, could already have a big impact on its current over-viability.
Though that's only half the solution, there's so many other changes that need to be made to the alien side.
Though that's only half the solution, there's so many other changes that need to be made to the alien side.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It limits the tres drops to game periods when they'd be balanced for the other players. An onos at 6m is an end game unit showing up early game. Where as if you could only drop fades at this point, you'd have a midgame unit showing up slightly before it should otherwise normally show up.
I also feel that alien structures aren't nearly important enough right now. There should be a compelling reason for the alien comm to spend his money fortifying the map with structures instead of just dumping it all into lifeforms. This makes the game more interesting for everyone, the alien comm especially.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What about lifeform maturation of some sort? Or something other than just flat upgrades to alien damage.
SOme mechnaic to ramp them up beyond the chambers which makes them more endgame appropriate and mid/early game not-op.
Alien com drops onos? Marine com drops dual exo. Marines have no quick counter to the ramp they face in games right now. They're fighting skulks without upgrades mostly (leap maybe), and then suddenly a carapace onos. The progression is kind of not happening there...
P.S. And I don't think t.res removal until 3 hives would necessarily limit strategy. Onos drops followed by carapace have allowed aliens to steamroll nearly every marine team this weekend, pretty much negating any attempts of "strategy" by either team. Perhaps without those onos drops, the tournament altogether might've been more interesting and varied in strategies used?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you want more options, allow marine commander to drop armor 3 dual exo at 6:00, because that's kind of the counter/equivalent to a carapace onos with a gorge behind it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That would mean untying the protolab from either the second CC or Adv armory, else there is no way you can ever get a fast exosuit or Jp. And that will open up a whole new can of worms I reckon. I don't think it's wise to balance the onos t.res drop timing by simply lowering the timing for marine endgame tech. Terrible terrible gameplay will ensue.
Aliens would still be able to evolve onos with pres at a reasonable time (10-15m instead of 6-8m). If you go watch the last game of the NA tournament, you will see us (inv) start an onos egg ~6m on VEIL with just 3 RTs. We also bought leap before this onos. Do you think this is balanced? Do you think aliens winning 5 out of 5 games in the NA finals is balanced? Do you think that every competitive (ie not steamroll) match in the NA launch tournament was won by aliens' 2 hive onos or a base rush?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So when Aliens are stuck with 2 hives, have researched the most important upgrades (celerity/carapace) and lifeform tech, but are unable to siege one of the marines bases due to gl spam, turret spam, obs, and the rest of the tools that makes marines amazing base turtlers, they're screwed because the com can't drop an onos eggs due to stupid restrictions. No wait, that's because anything but onos (and the upgrades) are complete jokes.
Actually, you know what I really want? Dropping lifeforms and weapons gone from both sides, its idiotic. Recycling weapons needs to go too.
Also, I can give a rat's rear end about competitive matches in a game clearly no where near balanced enough that it requires "restrictions" per tournament.
I'd love to see UWE implement some sort of analog slider system for the Khammander to trade armor strength, attack speed, and movement speed for his lifeforms down the line, with further research allowing greater specialization or more global strength to trade around. For now though, we need something basic to allow Skulks, Lerks, Fades, Oni to scale up and down with the game.
1. Everything gets buffed- not up to 5 minute Onos level, but enough that they're noticeably better than now: Five minute Onos remains just as viable as it was pre-buffs, so it is still used all the time because it's still a winning strategy.
2. Everything gets buffed up to 5 minute Onos level: Marines get rolled hard because Aliens become obscenely powerful five minutes into the game, whether because they're STILL rolling 5 minute Onos or because the equivalent is wrecking everything.
3. Everything gets buffed over 5 minute Onos level to promote other playstyles: Marine team forfiets 5 seconds in because they don't feel like wasting the three minutes of their life that the match will take.
But now we are getting side-tracked. Unless of course we look at the onos egg issue as only a small part of a much bigger problem, which arguably the case.
Yeah, kind of like untying life forms from the p.res required to evolve them, and the terrible terrible gameplay which ensues right now?
The onos is an end game unit meant to siege and take undefended positions down rapidly. The counter to it is an end game unit meant to siege and take undefended positons down rapidly.