<!--quoteo(post=1999975:date=Oct 29 2012, 01:27 PM:name=eh?)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (eh? @ Oct 29 2012, 01:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1999975"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->edit: Wheee: the comm dropped eggs do have an evolve time. It might actually be somewhere around 45 seconds too (for onos).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
current build time is 30s for an onos egg, evolve time once you jump into the egg is 2-3 seconds.
i'm proposing to triple the build time, and extend the evolve time to 45s. it's a non-trivial increase.
all the talk of making onos eggs more expensive is only going to serve to pigeonhole the alien team even further. you can't solve 'all the eggs in one basket' by making it harder for people to put the eggs in one basket, you solve it by making more baskets.
<!--quoteo(post=1999675:date=Oct 29 2012, 07:55 AM:name=radforChrist)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (radforChrist @ Oct 29 2012, 07:55 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1999675"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I agree 100% with the issue here, onos eggs are too easily dropped. I'm more worried though, that this thread will have the devs remove them from tier 2, and thus screw up the game more.
I agree the onos egg comes too early. However, in a stalemate, say, on Veil, and two teams are fighting to move forward, the marines can fully tech and finish off aliens in time.
The aliens are limited their third tech, and if you move the onos egg to three hives, removed a counter to exos and JP.
I think waht someone said earlier is best. Tie it to hive maturation. Have the hive mature in 180 seconds from completion. Heck, even have a timer on the onos egg icon to show how long before it's ready.
You can also add a longer evolution delay to the egg. Maybe double it even?
This resolves the 5 minute onos egg, but DOESN'T COMPLETELY REMOVE a valid tactic later.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No. It absolutely does not remove the onos from 2 hive gameplay. Instead, it forces aliens to save 75 pres for the onos instead of having it dropped by tres. You can still go onos on 2 hives, you just have to do it at a reasonable time via pres instead of being rushed with tres. The rushing is the problem, not the arbitrary number of hives it is dropped at.
Doubling the evolution delay gives it 1 more minute. So you'd have 6-8 minute onos instead of 5-7. That doesn't fix it. In fact, nothing like this fixes it without other severe side effects. What are we going to have, a 5 minute build time for the onos egg? That sounds pretty frustrating.
Just tie it to hive maturation and significantly increase maturation time. You can still nutrient mist (t.res investment mind you) to get your hive matured faster, but on average the onos egg would come at at least 2 - 3 minutes later. That WOULD make a significant difference, that's another 2 - 3 min you have to play without leap, bilebomb and possibly even carapace and celerity. (Not to mention 2 - 3 min is enough for marines to get some A and W upgrades) It would significantly alter the metagame, I doubt a lot of teams will still opt for an 8 - 10 min onos egg if you can already have a p.res one at +- 12 min provided you can hold enough harvesters. Other strategies would become more viable by comparison again
Also get rid of no res for death, it only serves to hurt alien gameplay atm.
<!--quoteo(post=1999756:date=Oct 29 2012, 05:45 AM:name=maD maX)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (maD maX @ Oct 29 2012, 05:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1999756"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As a PUB player I rarely see this. turns out in a 9v9 or 10v10 game, giving 8 or 9 players celerity/leap instead of 1 player (who may not know what he's doing) an onos egg just doesn't keep the pub happy and 9 rines take down an onos much faster then 5.
Conclusion, this seems like a competitive problem answer? Make it a competitive solution.... Agree on tournament rules.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Consequently, as a pub player, I see an early onos drop quite a bit. It is definitely more dangerous in a 10v10 pub, but an early (<7 min) onos will easily take away any Marine RT advantage and win the game just by resource attrition.
This is very anecdotal of course, but since I've been playing 225, the marine win rate has plummeted. And most of the marine wins I've seen, it is because of early game domination that forced the win (prevented second hive or killed it early). I've seen very few marine wins where it was decided by a tier-2 fight (Onos/Fade vs JP/Exo). That IMO, takes the fun out of the game (from a pub perspective).
Onos t.res drops can't be more powerful in higher number pub games. That logic makes no sense to be honest, the larger the amount of players in a game, the less impact a single t.res weapon or lifeform will have on that game, since 5 marines all focussing that onos is significantly less effective than 8 - 9 marines doing so.
Also, low marine win rates in pubs are largely a result of ###### hit reg. This game has A LOT of problems, but I think it's safe to say the majority of those problems are with the aliens.
<!--quoteo(post=2000074:date=Oct 29 2012, 03:28 PM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Oct 29 2012, 03:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2000074"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No. It absolutely does not remove the onos from 2 hive gameplay. Instead, it forces aliens to save 75 pres for the onos instead of having it dropped by tres. You can still go onos on 2 hives, you just have to do it at a reasonable time via pres instead of being rushed with tres. The rushing is the problem, not the arbitrary number of hives it is dropped at.
Doubling the evolution delay gives it 1 more minute. So you'd have 6-8 minute onos instead of 5-7. That doesn't fix it. In fact, nothing like this fixes it without other severe side effects. What are we going to have, a 5 minute build time for the onos egg? That sounds pretty frustrating.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I didn't say it removed onos from 2 hive gameplay. It removes a valid tactic. Late game, after upgrades, other than recysting and recapping destroyed nodes, alien commanders don' have much to do with res. Marines can drop Exos and JP, and all other equipment. Alien khams should be able to do the same.
To use your words, the rushing is the problem. I don't like onos egg evolution delay. I prefer enforcing the "maturating" of the hive before onos eggs can be researched/dropped. This adds an additional delay. I don't know what the timing is now, but if hive maturation took 120-180 seconds, that's 2-3 minutes later, much nearer the window to be expected.
It'd have to be double that, or at least somewhat more, to account for continious misting (increases maturation time by 200%I believe?) Nutrient mist costs t.res though, so 'fast t.res onos egg' would not only be delayed significantly, even with nutrient mist, it would also come out much closer to the p.res window. As a result, it would no longer be the no brainer strategy it is today.
<!--quoteo(post=1999988:date=Oct 29 2012, 10:42 AM:name=Wheeee)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wheeee @ Oct 29 2012, 10:42 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1999988"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->you can't solve 'all the eggs in one basket' by making it harder for people to put the eggs in one basket, you solve it by making more baskets.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is a terrible mindset.
<!--quoteo(post=1999276:date=Oct 28 2012, 06:10 PM:name=Kopikat)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kopikat @ Oct 28 2012, 06:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1999276"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't get why 90% of the comments are 'Don't change 5 minute Onos; buff other Alien options to be as powerful as that'. How could that possibly work? Example scenarios:
1. Everything gets buffed- not up to 5 minute Onos level, but enough that they're noticeably better than now: Five minute Onos remains just as viable as it was pre-buffs, so it is still used all the time because it's still a winning strategy.
2. Everything gets buffed up to 5 minute Onos level: Marines get rolled hard because Aliens become obscenely powerful, whether because they're STILL rolling 5 minute Onos or because the equivalent is wrecking everything.
3. Everything gets buffed over 5 minute Onos level to promote other playstyles: Marine team forfiets 5 seconds in because they don't feel like wasting the three minutes of their life that the match will take.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'd like to argue you need to create more baskets as well as make it harder to put all eggs in that one basket... The onos t.res drop is in parts a symptom of a much bigger problem, but it is also simply a problem in itself.
I enjoy how everyone is arguing over a bunch of bandaid fixes without even suggesting fixes to why early onos drops have become such a common tactic.
I'm sure it's exactly why the game is in such a terrible mess it is in now.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't get why 90% of the comments are 'Don't change 5 minute Onos; buff other Alien options to be as powerful as that'. How could that possibly work? Example scenarios:
1. Everything gets buffed- not up to 5 minute Onos level, but enough that they're noticeably better than now: Five minute Onos remains just as viable as it was pre-buffs, so it is still used all the time because it's still a winning strategy.
2. Everything gets buffed up to 5 minute Onos level: Marines get rolled hard because Aliens become obscenely powerful, whether because they're STILL rolling 5 minute Onos or because the equivalent is wrecking everything.
3. Everything gets buffed over 5 minute Onos level to promote other playstyles: Marine team forfiets 5 seconds in because they don't feel like wasting the three minutes of their life that the match will take.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No one is suggesting the 'don't change 5 minute onos; buff other alien options to be as powerful as that'. The problem is, all the other options have been nerfed so damn far into the ground, they have become a liability to use in a competitive setting.
1) Because scaling. There is zero scaling what so ever in this game. 5 minute onos are just as strong at 15 minute onos. On the flip side, game start skulks become s-h-t tier 5 minutes into the game.
2) Again, back to one. Scaling. Scaling will keep both marines and aliens on equal footing throughout the game. Only time one team will start overpowering the other is a shift in economy.
3) Guess what? Scaling. There seems to be a pattern here. Maybe it'll finally get into some people's heads.
No only is the lack of scaling a real fk up on UWE's part, but half the alien tech is complete garbage too. Celerity stops working in combat, camouflage is garbage (since you can no longer get silence with it), focus is still non-existant, hypermutation was garbage, adrenaline is useless, feign death = marine's weapon recycling but apparently too OP on aliens and thus removed "for fixing", trail spores is suicidal, fade with blink on second hive is problematic and they have less abilities than what they had in NS1, skulks too big and slow, no hive teleport, and hive 3 tech is garbage; vortex is junk, xenocide punishes skulks, umbra is the only good thing, but stuck on a useless lifeform, stomp is good, but ineffective vs jetpacks and exosuits.
Aliens have less than what they had in NS1 and the stuff they do have is less effective than in NS1 to the point that they're so bad, you can literally play without even using them.
<!--quoteo(post=2000159:date=Oct 29 2012, 04:54 PM:name=radforChrist)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (radforChrist @ Oct 29 2012, 04:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2000159"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->To use your words, the rushing is the problem. I don't like onos egg evolution delay. I prefer enforcing the "maturating" of the hive before onos eggs can be researched/dropped. This adds an additional delay. I don't know what the timing is now, but if hive maturation took 120-180 seconds, that's 2-3 minutes later, much nearer the window to be expected.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
it would be 5:30 between 2nd hive drop and maturation without misting. misting is 166% btw. but if 2nd hives are dropped almost immediately ?? not much diff in timing. on avg it might help to delay, but i think you'd need to tweak maturation timing to make a diff to the shortest possible time..
Comments
current build time is 30s for an onos egg, evolve time once you jump into the egg is 2-3 seconds.
i'm proposing to triple the build time, and extend the evolve time to 45s. it's a non-trivial increase.
all the talk of making onos eggs more expensive is only going to serve to pigeonhole the alien team even further. you can't solve 'all the eggs in one basket' by making it harder for people to put the eggs in one basket, you solve it by making more baskets.
I agree the onos egg comes too early. However, in a stalemate, say, on Veil, and two teams are fighting to move forward, the marines can fully tech and finish off aliens in time.
The aliens are limited their third tech, and if you move the onos egg to three hives, removed a counter to exos and JP.
I think waht someone said earlier is best. Tie it to hive maturation. Have the hive mature in 180 seconds from completion. Heck, even have a timer on the onos egg icon to show how long before it's ready.
You can also add a longer evolution delay to the egg. Maybe double it even?
This resolves the 5 minute onos egg, but DOESN'T COMPLETELY REMOVE a valid tactic later.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No. It absolutely does not remove the onos from 2 hive gameplay. Instead, it forces aliens to save 75 pres for the onos instead of having it dropped by tres. You can still go onos on 2 hives, you just have to do it at a reasonable time via pres instead of being rushed with tres. The rushing is the problem, not the arbitrary number of hives it is dropped at.
Doubling the evolution delay gives it 1 more minute. So you'd have 6-8 minute onos instead of 5-7. That doesn't fix it. In fact, nothing like this fixes it without other severe side effects. What are we going to have, a 5 minute build time for the onos egg? That sounds pretty frustrating.
Also get rid of no res for death, it only serves to hurt alien gameplay atm.
Conclusion, this seems like a competitive problem answer? Make it a competitive solution.... Agree on tournament rules.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Consequently, as a pub player, I see an early onos drop quite a bit. It is definitely more dangerous in a 10v10 pub, but an early (<7 min) onos will easily take away any Marine RT advantage and win the game just by resource attrition.
This is very anecdotal of course, but since I've been playing 225, the marine win rate has plummeted. And most of the marine wins I've seen, it is because of early game domination that forced the win (prevented second hive or killed it early). I've seen very few marine wins where it was decided by a tier-2 fight (Onos/Fade vs JP/Exo). That IMO, takes the fun out of the game (from a pub perspective).
Also, low marine win rates in pubs are largely a result of ###### hit reg. This game has A LOT of problems, but I think it's safe to say the majority of those problems are with the aliens.
Doubling the evolution delay gives it 1 more minute. So you'd have 6-8 minute onos instead of 5-7. That doesn't fix it. In fact, nothing like this fixes it without other severe side effects. What are we going to have, a 5 minute build time for the onos egg? That sounds pretty frustrating.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I didn't say it removed onos from 2 hive gameplay. It removes a valid tactic. Late game, after upgrades, other than recysting and recapping destroyed nodes, alien commanders don' have much to do with res. Marines can drop Exos and JP, and all other equipment. Alien khams should be able to do the same.
To use your words, the rushing is the problem. I don't like onos egg evolution delay. I prefer enforcing the "maturating" of the hive before onos eggs can be researched/dropped. This adds an additional delay. I don't know what the timing is now, but if hive maturation took 120-180 seconds, that's 2-3 minutes later, much nearer the window to be expected.
This is a terrible mindset.
<!--quoteo(post=1999276:date=Oct 28 2012, 06:10 PM:name=Kopikat)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kopikat @ Oct 28 2012, 06:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1999276"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't get why 90% of the comments are 'Don't change 5 minute Onos; buff other Alien options to be as powerful as that'. How could that possibly work? Example scenarios:
1. Everything gets buffed- not up to 5 minute Onos level, but enough that they're noticeably better than now: Five minute Onos remains just as viable as it was pre-buffs, so it is still used all the time because it's still a winning strategy.
2. Everything gets buffed up to 5 minute Onos level: Marines get rolled hard because Aliens become obscenely powerful, whether because they're STILL rolling 5 minute Onos or because the equivalent is wrecking everything.
3. Everything gets buffed over 5 minute Onos level to promote other playstyles: Marine team forfiets 5 seconds in because they don't feel like wasting the three minutes of their life that the match will take.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm sure it's exactly why the game is in such a terrible mess it is in now.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't get why 90% of the comments are 'Don't change 5 minute Onos; buff other Alien options to be as powerful as that'. How could that possibly work? Example scenarios:
1. Everything gets buffed- not up to 5 minute Onos level, but enough that they're noticeably better than now: Five minute Onos remains just as viable as it was pre-buffs, so it is still used all the time because it's still a winning strategy.
2. Everything gets buffed up to 5 minute Onos level: Marines get rolled hard because Aliens become obscenely powerful, whether because they're STILL rolling 5 minute Onos or because the equivalent is wrecking everything.
3. Everything gets buffed over 5 minute Onos level to promote other playstyles: Marine team forfiets 5 seconds in because they don't feel like wasting the three minutes of their life that the match will take.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No one is suggesting the 'don't change 5 minute onos; buff other alien options to be as powerful as that'. The problem is, all the other options have been nerfed so damn far into the ground, they have become a liability to use in a competitive setting.
1) Because scaling. There is zero scaling what so ever in this game. 5 minute onos are just as strong at 15 minute onos. On the flip side, game start skulks become s-h-t tier 5 minutes into the game.
2) Again, back to one. Scaling. Scaling will keep both marines and aliens on equal footing throughout the game. Only time one team will start overpowering the other is a shift in economy.
3) Guess what? Scaling. There seems to be a pattern here. Maybe it'll finally get into some people's heads.
No only is the lack of scaling a real fk up on UWE's part, but half the alien tech is complete garbage too. Celerity stops working in combat, camouflage is garbage (since you can no longer get silence with it), focus is still non-existant, hypermutation was garbage, adrenaline is useless, feign death = marine's weapon recycling but apparently too OP on aliens and thus removed "for fixing", trail spores is suicidal, fade with blink on second hive is problematic and they have less abilities than what they had in NS1, skulks too big and slow, no hive teleport, and hive 3 tech is garbage; vortex is junk, xenocide punishes skulks, umbra is the only good thing, but stuck on a useless lifeform, stomp is good, but ineffective vs jetpacks and exosuits.
Aliens have less than what they had in NS1 and the stuff they do have is less effective than in NS1 to the point that they're so bad, you can literally play without even using them.
it would be 5:30 between 2nd hive drop and maturation without misting. misting is 166% btw. but if 2nd hives are dropped almost immediately ?? not much diff in timing. on avg it might help to delay, but i think you'd need to tweak maturation timing to make a diff to the shortest possible time..