<!--quoteo(post=1999583:date=Oct 29 2012, 11:07 AM:name=Locklear)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Locklear @ Oct 29 2012, 11:07 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1999583"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No, no upgrade jetpack Marines just bleed 10Pres, they don't really accomplish anything in regards to fighting the Onos. Especially if he chooses a good room to engage in.
Exosuit? Uhhh, 25 heavy DPS is actually more useless than a couple rifles. There's a REASON they removed heavy armor from Onos and just spiked his hp to 1300/1000.. so that the Exosuit DIDN'T just rape the Onos really easily. So the Exo penetrates armor and has the highest damage type.. but to a ###### load of HP that isn't high armor.. much less effective.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'll buy the jetpack argument, they are pretty useless without upgrades. I'm skeptical about your reasoning with regards to the exo suit though. I will test this more thoroughly when I have the time, but I am quite convinced that an exo suit does considerably more damage than numerous light marines. Even then, depending on what kind of exo you want, you may even be able to get two on the field.
Here is my take on the situation: arms lab upgrades have made marines soft, even competitive players. Its always the first line of attack, and of defense. Its a no brainer right? Weapon and armor upgrades are highly effective, and they apply to the whole team! Obviously you want them. But when you go the generally applicable route, and the enemy team goes the all-in-one route of an Onos, you are going to find yourself coming up short.
This may seem like an outrageous claim, and by most numbers you would be right. What I base this position on is the fact that <b>nobody has tried</b> it. It costs less than 150 res to go straight for single mini-gun heavy. That is a pitifully small amount of res. Why has noone tried it? Surely if you are looking for a solution to the top tier alien lifeform, you need the top tier marine unit? Anything else and you are trying to cut corners, and shouldn't be surprised when you come up short.
PS: Preemptive strike Don't dare mention the imobility of the exo suit. Not after all the butthurt whines about the aliens not having hive teleportation.
<!--quoteo(post=1999502:date=Oct 29 2012, 01:13 AM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Oct 29 2012, 01:13 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1999502"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If a marine team doesn't endeavor to get any upgrades past level 1 armour/weaps, how long would it take them to get jetpacks? Before or after the current 5-6 minute Onos? Are they not of a comparable tech level? If not, what about a 5-6 minute exo drop? Would this not stop the Onos onslaught?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Game 4 of the NA finals showcases this hypothetical. All-in goes for ASAP jetpacks while we go for the standard onos play. Marine tech path went mines straight into jetpack. We went leap into onos.
Jetpacks finished @6:25 game time. Onos, after leap, finished at 7:25. The onos could have been out at probably ~6m if we had skipped leap. If you watch this game, though, you can see that 0/0 jetpacks with no upgrades and no phase gates still get rolled by the onos cheese. Food for thought: our first fade came out @10:50 game time; nearly 50% longer than the onos.
From my experience, 0/0 marines with jetpacks feel weaker against the onos strategy than upgrades (typically 2/1 or 3/1) + phase gates.
The exos are complete trash in competitive play. With no armor upgrades, exos are VERY fragile. And with only 1 minigun, the exo can't even get the onos to half hp before the onos closes the distance and kills it. Not to mention the onos is about 3x the speed of an exosuit, heals up easier, and puts out more damage.
<!--quoteo(post=1999598:date=Oct 29 2012, 12:27 PM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Oct 29 2012, 12:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1999598"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Here is my take on the situation: arms lab upgrades have made marines soft, even competitive players. Its always the first line of attack, and of defense. Its a no brainer right? Weapon and armor upgrades are highly effective, and they apply to the whole team! Obviously you want them. But when you go the generally applicable route, and the enemy team goes the all-in-one route of an Onos, you are going to find yourself coming up short.
This may seem like an outrageous claim, and by most numbers you would be right. What I base this position on is the fact that <b>nobody has tried</b> it. It costs less than 150 res to go straight for single mini-gun heavy. That is a pitifully small amount of res. Why has noone tried it? Surely if you are looking for a solution to the top tier alien lifeform, you need the top tier marine unit? Anything else and you are trying to cut corners, and shouldn't be surprised when you come up short.
PS: Preemptive strike Don't dare mention the imobility of the exo suit. Not after all the butthurt whines about the aliens not having hive teleportation.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Has been tried and found wanting. Exo without armour upgrades is extremely fragile and not worth the investment. It is countered by skulks alone, let alone onoses and bile-gorges. Early exos is a much weaker upgrade path than other marine strategies.
<!--quoteo(post=1999600:date=Oct 29 2012, 11:30 AM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Oct 29 2012, 11:30 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1999600"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The exos are complete trash in competitive play. With no armor upgrades, exos are VERY fragile. And with only 1 minigun, the exo can't even get the onos to half hp before the onos closes the distance and kills it. Not to mention the onos is about 3x the speed of an exosuit, heals up easier, and puts out more damage.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As above, that sounds completely understandable by numbers, but I want to see it done. The first exo should be out before the first onos correct? And after that, the marines have the luxury of being able to purchase single minigun exos relatively cheaply with pres. That is, of course, if they forego there mine and shotgun spam harassment at the start. Though how many competitive teams would be willing to not go the tried and tested permanent harvester harassment path?
<!--quoteo(post=1999603:date=Oct 29 2012, 11:33 AM:name=Squirreli_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squirreli_ @ Oct 29 2012, 11:33 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1999603"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Has been tried and found wanting. Exo without armour upgrades is extremely fragile and not worth the investment. It is countered by skulks alone, let alone onoses and bile-gorges. Early exos is a much weaker upgrade path than other marine strategies.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wait, so are we saying that skulks are too powerful now? I thought the competitive scene were up in arms about how weak and skilless they were. Now they can take on Exos covered by a gang of marines?
<!--quoteo(post=1999604:date=Oct 29 2012, 02:36 AM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Oct 29 2012, 02:36 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1999604"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Wait, so are we saying that skulks are too powerful now? I thought the competitive scene were up in arms about how weak and skilless they were. Now they can take on Exos covered by a gang of marines?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're really missing what he's saying.. and taking it to another level of misinterpretation. He's saying Exoskeleton WITHOUT arms lab upgrades can be taken down by Skulks rather quickly, not saying that it's too powerful.
Anyways, you don't need to test the exoskeleton versus Onos, it's really obvious that the Onos wins 1v1 by a mile because of the DPS/DAMAGE TYPE issue I was referring to.
<!--quoteo(post=1999604:date=Oct 29 2012, 12:36 PM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Oct 29 2012, 12:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1999604"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Wait, so are we saying that skulks are too powerful now? I thought the competitive scene were up in arms about how weak and skilless they were. Now they can take on Exos covered by a gang of marines?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wtf. Please re-read my post. How do you draw these conclusions, I do not know. Please play more and speculate less on forums?
Exo suits without armour upgrades go down very easily. Higher armour levels allow it to retreat and to get welded, making that investment somewhat worthwhile.
Game 4 of the NA finals showcases this hypothetical. All-in goes for ASAP jetpacks while we go for the standard onos play. Marine tech path went mines straight into jetpack. We went leap into onos.
Jetpacks finished @6:25 game time. Onos, after leap, finished at 7:25. The onos could have been out at probably ~6m if we had skipped leap. If you watch this game, though, you can see that 0/0 jetpacks with no upgrades and no phase gates still get rolled by the onos cheese. Food for thought: our first fade came out @10:50 game time; nearly 50% longer than the onos.
From my experience, 0/0 marines with jetpacks feel weaker against the onos strategy than upgrades (typically 2/1 or 3/1) + phase gates.
The exos are complete trash in competitive play. With no armor upgrades, exos are VERY fragile. And with only 1 minigun, the exo can't even get the onos to half hp before the onos closes the distance and kills it. Not to mention the onos is about 3x the speed of an exosuit, heals up easier, and puts out more damage.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Doesnt the onos cost 50% more PRes though? That should be partially expected
The problem with having something to counter the Onos early in the game (like flamethrower or early jp) is that you will always have to go for it based on the possibility that the aliens are going for 5 minutes Onos.
Alien comm dropping lifeforms is what is poor (imo).
Everyone is raving about how aliens are not that fun to play, well why not take the 75 res that is spent on an Onos and actually make whips more useful, shell upgrades and hive paths more useful, and sort out ALL the upgrades that no one really bothers with currently.
Whips need to be a tad more powerful, destroy grenades when it hits them (with reduced damage inflicted on the whip), and it should have an auto root function so moving whips is seen more often.
Stop crag/shift/shade from stacking within the same range and give them a boost, so placement becomes a lot more tactical and less 'carefree'.
Also adjust the upgrades to be more offensive and useful for combat, such as cloak disrupting the marines minimap and making lifeforms invisible to players until first hit from marines.
So much more potential in the width of the alien tech tree than the length.
<!--quoteo(post=1999609:date=Oct 29 2012, 11:43 AM:name=Squirreli_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squirreli_ @ Oct 29 2012, 11:43 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1999609"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Wtf. Please re-read my post. How do you draw these conclusions, I do not know. Please play more and speculate less on forums?
Exo suits without armour upgrades go down very easily. Higher armour levels allow it to retreat and to get welded, making that investment somewhat worthwhile.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You don't like to be questioned, do you? Think you're above it?
Nah, I think you are wrong. I'm chalking this one up to player's unwillingness to go all in as marines, while being all too willing to do it as aliens because everyone else does it. Maybe release will bring some braver competitive players. One can only hope.
Wishful thinking I know... but honestly... They should completely remove the 1 minigun exo (Because it is utterly useless) and replace it with letting marines carry the HMG.
So, you still have the dual minigun exo which can deal a lot more damage than an HMG, and also has a lot of armor.
Competitive players generally never use exo's because they aren't needed. I won't go deep into my opinion of the exo suit, but I feel they are completely the wrong direction that UWE should have taken with the game. Were stuck with them now, but that doesn't mean there isn't room to add another weapon.
I want to hear UWE's logic for not bringing back the HMG (From a meta game perspective). I really don't care about the aesthetics of having 2 similar weapons in the game. Aesthetics are what have hindered this game the most anyway. Let's hear some real talk.
Go play NS1 and you will see how the HMG effects gameplay vs onos. It is essential in many cases. 1 HMG will make an onos back off and if you can successfully bait one into 2 HMG's you'll be in good luck (Which is probably why they added devour).
All those aspects made sense and were balanced. In NS2, however, we throw in these arbitrary and redundant exo suits that serve no purpose other than a lightshow / graphical fest. They aren't part of the meta game at all, which is pretty apparent when you are watching top level NS2 games.
Adding back in the HMG would fix a lot of imbalance in the game, and it wouldn't take away from exo's at all. We all know pubbers worship the ###### out of exo suits anyway and will always take one over an HMG that will require skill to use. It's the same effect as seeing people research exo's before jetpacks. It makes absolutely no sense at all, yet we see people doing it in pubs constantly. I highly doubt adding the HMG would hurt the game in any way shape or form. It can only help. Let's hear the flame.
<!--quoteo(post=1999568:date=Oct 29 2012, 04:40 AM:name=Evil_Sheep)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Evil_Sheep @ Oct 29 2012, 04:40 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1999568"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Even after the onos arrives, there are still answers. The onos is big and fairly slow. If he gets too far away from heal support, either hive or gorge, it is very vulnerable to being surrounded. Particularly in the early game w/o carapace even lvl0 weapons can take out an exposed onos. That is why most smart onos players will just stick around a hive and defend it. In a 6v6 w/ CO on each side, that leaves 5 "outfielders," if say one alien is gorge, that leaves just 4 aliens, now if an onos is dedicated to hive defense, you've only got 3 aliens left against 5 marines in the field. This numbers imbalance can be exploited by marines to expand, establish map control + take out alien res.
Check out the <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XZT8KMG7_xY&feature=plcp" target="_blank">recent game 3 of exertus v archaea in the guru final</a>. Exertus as aliens on veil got onos at the 6:20 mark. How did marines respond? Armory block for their PG at subsector, then ninja PG in Y junction and shotgun rush the undefended hive at Cargo. Onos is too slow to cross the map before the other hive goes down. Game. OK I know it's archaea and they are going to win anyway, but there is a reason they win, they use the best strategies.
I think 6min onos should be removed, but I also think that before immediately jumping to conclude that the game balance is "broken," players should try harder to adapt and come up with answers.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I feel like you're grossly over stating the case to be made to fight against the super fast onos. I'll try to discuss your paragraphs I quoted in order.
You claim the onos is big and fairly slow, but really he isn't. He's actually quite mobile and nothing like an exosuit in terms of mobility. In fact, he's probably even faster than a gorge at getting around the map. You're right that an onos can get picked if he goes into a phasegate that is blocked with an armory. You see teams use that to stall when an onos comes out. The problem is marines can never mount meaningful attacks against a hive defended by an onos after that. An onos can completely bully the marines off the map. If the marines leave the phase gate with less than 3 marines defending it, then it is very easy for the onos to overrun it. And at the same time the alien team has the initiative to choose to mount a 6 player assault on the phase gate at any moment in time. This leaves marines very little ability to harass or force aliens to spread out or ping pong the onos at different sides of the map. Because if the marines send 2-3 shooters out to kill an RT, the onos simply kills the forward phase gate and it is GG. The onos is effectively forces the marines to use 3 guys to constantly zone the onos out. The harassment battles then end up being 2v4 in favor of the aliens.
In the arc vs exertus game, arc effectively won before the onos came out. The onos came out at 6:20 and by then arc had killed 3 RTs and exertus had just 1 standing. Because of this, exertus had no leap and slow skulks. In that build (223, I believe) there was huge advantages given to marines over slow skulk. Marines frequently 2v4'd due to knockback on melee and collision issues. In this game, I don't feel like arc overcame the onos. More I feel like the onos kept exertus in the game for 10 minutes longer than they deserved. Arc beat exertus in that game before the onos even came out. The onos was just a crutch that exertus used (brilliantly, I admit) to almost claw their way back in a game that they were clearly bested in.
I'd also like to add that this was played on veil (probably the worst map for aliens) on a very marine friendly build by the best shooting team in NS2. And they still almost lost to this onos cheese.
I agree that jumping to the conclusion of imbalance is not good. I'm confident that we're not jumping here.
As to alien play > marine play in the finals -- inv's marine play is actually much better than our alien play, but hitreg is atrocious in b225 when compared to b223. We only got to play 2 marine rounds. The first one we quit when our arcs wouldn't path through tram hub, but instead kept trying to go to server room. They apparently can't path over the rails throughout tram. Score one for playing tournaments on fresh patches with game breaking map bugs. Our second marine game we actually killed the second hive once, but still died to the *overpowered* onos drop after the second-second hive.
<!--quoteo(post=1999616:date=Oct 29 2012, 12:54 PM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Oct 29 2012, 12:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1999616"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You don't like to be questioned, do you? Think you're above it?
Nah, I think you are wrong. I'm chalking this one up to player's unwillingness to go all in as marines, while being all too willing to do it as aliens because everyone else does it. Maybe release will bring some braver competitive players. One can only hope.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I really do not mind explaining my points of view in. I do admit to having a bit of a short temper with you, since you are one of the more accomplished trolls on this forum. Now, if you actually were willing to understand what other people say and had it in you to actually play the game competitively in anyway, we could maybe have a decent discussion.
As to your accusations of no competitive teams willing to try quick exos, well, they're completely unfounded. Not only have we tried quick exos multiple times, we actually used them just last saturday in the ESL launch tournament. Exertus vs HBZ, round 2, Veil... ScardyBobs cast can be found at <a href="http://youtu.be/tu0ZgrBzxyw" target="_blank">http://youtu.be/tu0ZgrBzxyw</a>
<!--quoteo(post=1999611:date=Oct 29 2012, 05:45 AM:name=Dictator93)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dictator93 @ Oct 29 2012, 05:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1999611"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Doesnt the onos cost 50% more PRes though? That should be partially expected<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Right, but I think you mixed up what I was saying. Fades are coming out for 50 pres 50% later than onos are coming out for 75 tres. My entire point is that the onos (endgame unit) is coming out before fades (midgame unit) because of the broken onos tres eggs.
In that tournament game, the onos came out about 7 minutes in while the fade came about 11 minutes in. That's pretty broken when you think about that.
<!--quoteo(post=1999616:date=Oct 29 2012, 01:54 AM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Oct 29 2012, 01:54 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1999616"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You don't like to be questioned, do you? Think you're above it?
Nah, I think you are wrong. I'm chalking this one up to player's unwillingness to go all in as marines, while being all too willing to do it as aliens because everyone else does it. Maybe release will bring some braver competitive players. One can only hope.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you think he's wrong then you leave me with no hope left for humanity.
How many ###### times do I have to tell you the thing is ineffective on a damage value/armor type level? Do the ###### math and see that 3x rifles can do 1500 (2300 total Onos hp) damage with 100% accuracy in about 5 seconds, wheras the Exoskeleton does far less? 25 heavy DPS, so a meaningless 125 damage.. if I'm not mistaken.
I think you might do near 600 damage by the time your weapon is completely overheated. Pretty pathetic considering rifles do that much (~500)damage from 1 marine with a full magazine. Do you not research anything at all about this game before making these suggestions?
Ridiculous to think that it would make the difference in these matchups.
<!--quoteo(post=1999616:date=Oct 29 2012, 05:54 AM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Oct 29 2012, 05:54 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1999616"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You don't like to be questioned, do you? Think you're above it?
Nah, I think you are wrong. I'm chalking this one up to player's unwillingness to go all in as marines, while being all too willing to do it as aliens because everyone else does it. Maybe release will bring some braver competitive players. One can only hope.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Exertus does more testing of this crap than anyone else in competitive scrims and matches. They play more than probably every other team.
You really don't have to take his word for it, though. Just look at some past extremely long games in which marines occasionally go dual minigun exos. You still see these lvl 3 armor dual minigun exos get crushed by coordinated alien attacks. Why do you think a 0 armor (that's about half the hp of an a3 exo) with half the firepower is going to do any better?
Fact is single minigun exos aren't even worth the 50 pres. Even if you have a3, they just don't put out enough dps and are very easy to crush in competitive games. Dual minigun exos put out a fantastic amount of dps but are such a big target because they're only purchasable with pres. These exos still usually just spawn, defend for a while, then die in competitive games.
<!--quoteo(post=1999624:date=Oct 29 2012, 12:09 PM:name=Squirreli_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squirreli_ @ Oct 29 2012, 12:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1999624"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As to your accusations of no competitive teams willing to try quick exos, well, they're completely unfounded. Not only have we tried quick exos multiple times, we actually used them just last saturday in the ESL launch tournament. Exertus vs HBZ, round 2, Veil... ScardyBobs cast can be found at <a href="http://youtu.be/tu0ZgrBzxyw" target="_blank">http://youtu.be/tu0ZgrBzxyw</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ok, making such a claim was foolish, as I obviously cannot watch every competitive game played, and know that nobody has tried a certain strategy. However now I am left with even more questions. Why did you try the exo route if you were so adamant that it would fail? Why was there a +- 2 minute gap between researching exos and actually getting one on the field? Why did you seemingly abandon the exo route 2 minutes after getting your first one on the field, and begin researching jetpacks? Why did you go jetpacks with no weapon upgrades? Why did you win? Do you attribute any of the cause to early exos?
<!--quoteo(post=1999620:date=Oct 29 2012, 12:01 PM:name=.ADHd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (.ADHd @ Oct 29 2012, 12:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1999620"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Adding back in the HMG would fix a lot of imbalance in the game, and it wouldn't take away from exo's at all. We all know pubbers worship the ###### out of exo suits anyway and will always take one over an HMG that will require skill to use. It's the same effect as seeing people research exo's before jetpacks. It makes absolutely no sense at all, yet we see people doing it in pubs constantly. I highly doubt adding the HMG would hurt the game in any way shape or form. It can only help. Let's hear the flame.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ok, you're elitist and not as good as you think you are. Sorry that's all the flame I can muster.
Would these HMG's be wieldable by jetpacks? Do you not think that that may change a few things? Level 2 JP LMG marines take down hives quick enough. Give them HMGs and things may fall apart quickly. And don't say that JP wouldn't be able to use it, that is awful design.
<!--quoteo(post=1999640:date=Oct 29 2012, 12:37 PM:name=Chuck_Norris)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chuck_Norris @ Oct 29 2012, 12:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1999640"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Floodinator had killed 2nd CC in Pipe and Exertus had no pg until that point.
Early EXO's are quite useless due to the lack of armor upgrades....<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Then maybe their base armor needs to be increased, and their scaling with upgrades decreased?
Here's the point I'm trying to get across, without being abrasive or controversial. The majority of suggestions and complaints in this thread relate to the best way to allow marines to keep doing what they are doing. Everybody wants the marines or the Onos to be changed in such a way that current dominant strategies continue to work. This is a terrible approach, and will work to further narrow the strategic liberties that players have.
In somthing like SC2, when an imbalance is found, they have a much better idea of how to fix it, because thousands upon thousands of people are playing, and they are all voicing their own opinions and strategies, and they can all be taken into account and it can be balanced across the board. Here, everyone just wants to be able to rush their shotguns and mines, and go straight to arms lab upgrades and get there jetpacks and be done with it.
<!--quoteo(post=1999632:date=Oct 29 2012, 01:24 PM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Oct 29 2012, 01:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1999632"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Ok, making such a claim was foolish, as I obviously cannot watch every competitive game played, and know that nobody has tried a certain strategy. However now I am left with even more questions. Why did you try the exo route if you were so adamant that it would fail? Why was there a +- 2 minute gap between researching exos and actually getting one on the field? Why did you seemingly abandon the exo route 2 minutes after getting your first one on the field, and begin researching jetpacks? Why did you go jetpacks with no weapon upgrades? Why did you win? Do you attribute any of the cause to early exos?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That was the last match in the round robin part of the tournament and we had won all previous games. We were in a position where we already had won the bracket and could not lose position by losing a round. We wanted to do something different for a change and we also thought we had a fair chance of pulling a win even with the exo handicap. Thus our comm TrC - without telling us ;) - chose quick exos as the strategy (although we did from the start have a good hunch he was going for those). I do not remember everything about that match and I can't watch the video again at work, so I can't go into all the details. The reason we won despite the exo handicap was that we were more skilled as individuals and as a team. Also, our play on Veil is really solid as we like the map and play it a lot, so we have some kind of an advantage there also against most teams.
<!--quoteo(post=1999644:date=Oct 29 2012, 02:47 AM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Oct 29 2012, 02:47 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1999644"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Here's the point I'm trying to get across, without being abrasive or controversial. The majority of suggestions and complaints in this thread relate to the best way to allow marines to keep doing what they are doing. Everybody wants the marines or the Onos to be changed in such a way that current dominant strategies continue to work. This is a terrible approach, and will work to further narrow the strategic liberties that players have.
In somthing like SC2, when an imbalance is found, they have a much better idea of how to fix it, because thousands upon thousands of people are playing, and they are all voicing their own opinions and strategies, and they can all be taken into account and it can be balanced across the board. Here, everyone just wants to be able to rush their shotguns and mines, and go straight to arms lab upgrades and get there jetpacks and be done with it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> you just made a few assumptions:
1) that the current competitive players are not attempting to find ways to beat the onos. this is obviously not true, as I know we spent over 5+ hours in a server scrimming multiple teams and having them use the onos so that we could find ways to beat it. multiple people in this thread have also accounted for exertus and arc's extensive practice time, as well, but you seem to be ignoring them completely. the fact is, competitive players would not be, well, <i>competitive</i> if they weren't trying to find ways to win constantly. it's a really elitist assumption to make, to assume that everyone who plays competitively is simply a whiner who just uses the flavor of the month strategy.
2) that the current players want to just continue using the same strategies. actually, one of the largest complaints is that there are hardly any viable tech paths for alien, how they're required to be on two hives to stay competitive, etc. everyone has been complaining that there are not enough strategies. for there to be only one that's commonly used doesn't help the game grow at all. it doesn't look appealing competitively, either. SC2 is not plagued by the same issues that NS2 has, so it's not really fair to draw that comparison.
I agree 100% with the issue here, onos eggs are too easily dropped. I'm more worried though, that this thread will have the devs remove them from tier 2, and thus screw up the game more.
I agree the onos egg comes too early. However, in a stalemate, say, on Veil, and two teams are fighting to move forward, the marines can fully tech and finish off aliens in time.
The aliens are limited their third tech, and if you move the onos egg to three hives, removed a counter to exos and JP.
I think waht someone said earlier is best. Tie it to hive maturation. Have the hive mature in 180 seconds from completion. Heck, even have a timer on the onos egg icon to show how long before it's ready.
You can also add a longer evolution delay to the egg. Maybe double it even?
This resolves the 5 minute onos egg, but DOESN'T COMPLETELY REMOVE a valid tactic later.
I agree on the problem. It is even a problem on pubs (at least with smurfs). From my last 3 games on HBZ, 2 were won by abusing the early onos drop and the other one was won by marines that rushed the near hive early game and killed all the eggs. Than it got to boring for me to continue.
<!--quoteo(post=1999588:date=Oct 29 2012, 11:11 AM:name=Squirreli_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squirreli_ @ Oct 29 2012, 11:11 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1999588"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Since I personally would like to see the onos appear later and I would like to see late game aliens able to buy tres onoses to make a come-back from losing their second hive, here is a quick suggestion for you to bash. Just to explore our options here, really... Onos Hatchery. Structure that requires 2 hives to build, costs 20-30 res and takes something like 60 seconds to grow. Onos egg drops not locked to hives but to a grown hatchery, so 1 hive aliens with hatchery could still try a comeback with tres onoses.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I like this idea. Maybe make it a hatchery for all higher lifeforms instead of only the onos. It could have a long building time and low health so sniping that is a valid tactic. Together with a building that is needed to research the skulk-abilities (instead of researching them in the second hive) would also balance the importance of the second hive better.
TL;DR: An Onos-Drop is fine, BUT not this early. Increasing the costs for the onos-egg may be a bandaid fix, but after that an own building would be best, to create a counter for the marines (=sniping that building).
Time for a balance mod, that should send UWE a message. Anyone interested on collaborating on a project like this? Granted it wouldn't be easy to come up with some community compromise on the 'ideal balance', but I reckon there's a lot of things this community is on the same page about.
<!--quoteo(post=1999744:date=Oct 29 2012, 04:26 PM:name=Xarius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xarius @ Oct 29 2012, 04:26 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1999744"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Time for a balance mod, that should send UWE a message. Anyone interested on collaborating on a project like this? Granted it wouldn't be easy to come up with some community compromise on the 'ideal balance', but I reckon there's a lot of things this community is on the same page about.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
UWE has been keeping an eye on competitive streams the whole weekend so I think they must be familiar with early onos predominance. Also, the game is still pretty much in flux and any balance mod will have most of its work nullified by next few patches. Now, I personally consider balance mods a good way to try out things and a way to give weight to balance argumentation (ie. "look, we tweaked this and this and these are the results as shown in this video"). I would not however participate in making one or even playing one at this stage, as much in the core game will still change. Later on it will be a different matter, but right now I'm not terribly excited about the idea.
<!--quoteo(post=1999744:date=Oct 29 2012, 02:26 PM:name=Xarius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xarius @ Oct 29 2012, 02:26 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1999744"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Time for a balance mod, that should send UWE a message. Anyone interested on collaborating on a project like this? Granted it wouldn't be easy to come up with some community compromise on the 'ideal balance', but I reckon there's a lot of things this community is on the same page about.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I can't say I understand NS2 deep enough to really have a concrete say, but I feel tweaking numbers for better balance is going to be more bandaid on top of the bandaid. For example if you fix the onos egg things, you need to probably fix the early game skulks, maybe adjust the fade timings and so on. The onos is just the peak of the iceberg - nerf it and other issues come into play.
I don't even want to have a guess on whether it's possible to reach a decent balance by just tweaking around the existing structure, but to me it seems that the real long lasting solution would be to tackle the actual issues with skulk scaling, lifeform roles and maybe even with res model and so on. However, that's much bigger and much more controversial of a project altogether.
As a PUB player I rarely see this. turns out in a 9v9 or 10v10 game, giving 8 or 9 players celerity/leap instead of 1 player (who may not know what he's doing) an onos egg just doesn't keep the pub happy and 9 rines take down an onos much faster then 5.
Conclusion, this seems like a competitive problem answer? Make it a competitive solution.... Agree on tournament rules.
As far as alien OP, for the past few weeks a lot of skilled players have stacked rines rather then get frustrated as alien. Now with 225 I am seeing people that last week only played rine play alien
Conclusion, people want to play alien since they havnt played it since 221 as such there is a alien stack. Solution ignore week one game stats and see how it evolves.
Comments
Exosuit? Uhhh, 25 heavy DPS is actually more useless than a couple rifles. There's a REASON they removed heavy armor from Onos and just spiked his hp to 1300/1000.. so that the Exosuit DIDN'T just rape the Onos really easily. So the Exo penetrates armor and has the highest damage type.. but to a ###### load of HP that isn't high armor.. much less effective.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'll buy the jetpack argument, they are pretty useless without upgrades. I'm skeptical about your reasoning with regards to the exo suit though. I will test this more thoroughly when I have the time, but I am quite convinced that an exo suit does considerably more damage than numerous light marines. Even then, depending on what kind of exo you want, you may even be able to get two on the field.
Here is my take on the situation: arms lab upgrades have made marines soft, even competitive players. Its always the first line of attack, and of defense. Its a no brainer right? Weapon and armor upgrades are highly effective, and they apply to the whole team! Obviously you want them. But when you go the generally applicable route, and the enemy team goes the all-in-one route of an Onos, you are going to find yourself coming up short.
This may seem like an outrageous claim, and by most numbers you would be right. What I base this position on is the fact that <b>nobody has tried</b> it. It costs less than 150 res to go straight for single mini-gun heavy. That is a pitifully small amount of res. Why has noone tried it? Surely if you are looking for a solution to the top tier alien lifeform, you need the top tier marine unit? Anything else and you are trying to cut corners, and shouldn't be surprised when you come up short.
PS: Preemptive strike
Don't dare mention the imobility of the exo suit. Not after all the butthurt whines about the aliens not having hive teleportation.
<a href="http://www.twitch.tv/blindns2/b/337228090" target="_blank">http://www.twitch.tv/blindns2/b/337228090</a>
(starts ~5:12:00)
Game 4 of the NA finals showcases this hypothetical. All-in goes for ASAP jetpacks while we go for the standard onos play. Marine tech path went mines straight into jetpack. We went leap into onos.
Jetpacks finished @6:25 game time. Onos, after leap, finished at 7:25. The onos could have been out at probably ~6m if we had skipped leap. If you watch this game, though, you can see that 0/0 jetpacks with no upgrades and no phase gates still get rolled by the onos cheese. Food for thought: our first fade came out @10:50 game time; nearly 50% longer than the onos.
From my experience, 0/0 marines with jetpacks feel weaker against the onos strategy than upgrades (typically 2/1 or 3/1) + phase gates.
The exos are complete trash in competitive play. With no armor upgrades, exos are VERY fragile. And with only 1 minigun, the exo can't even get the onos to half hp before the onos closes the distance and kills it. Not to mention the onos is about 3x the speed of an exosuit, heals up easier, and puts out more damage.
This may seem like an outrageous claim, and by most numbers you would be right. What I base this position on is the fact that <b>nobody has tried</b> it. It costs less than 150 res to go straight for single mini-gun heavy. That is a pitifully small amount of res. Why has noone tried it? Surely if you are looking for a solution to the top tier alien lifeform, you need the top tier marine unit? Anything else and you are trying to cut corners, and shouldn't be surprised when you come up short.
PS: Preemptive strike
Don't dare mention the imobility of the exo suit. Not after all the butthurt whines about the aliens not having hive teleportation.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Has been tried and found wanting. Exo without armour upgrades is extremely fragile and not worth the investment. It is countered by skulks alone, let alone onoses and bile-gorges. Early exos is a much weaker upgrade path than other marine strategies.
As above, that sounds completely understandable by numbers, but I want to see it done. The first exo should be out before the first onos correct? And after that, the marines have the luxury of being able to purchase single minigun exos relatively cheaply with pres. That is, of course, if they forego there mine and shotgun spam harassment at the start. Though how many competitive teams would be willing to not go the tried and tested permanent harvester harassment path?
<!--quoteo(post=1999603:date=Oct 29 2012, 11:33 AM:name=Squirreli_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squirreli_ @ Oct 29 2012, 11:33 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1999603"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Has been tried and found wanting. Exo without armour upgrades is extremely fragile and not worth the investment. It is countered by skulks alone, let alone onoses and bile-gorges. Early exos is a much weaker upgrade path than other marine strategies.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wait, so are we saying that skulks are too powerful now? I thought the competitive scene were up in arms about how weak and skilless they were. Now they can take on Exos covered by a gang of marines?
You're really missing what he's saying.. and taking it to another level of misinterpretation. He's saying Exoskeleton WITHOUT arms lab upgrades can be taken down by Skulks rather quickly, not saying that it's too powerful.
Anyways, you don't need to test the exoskeleton versus Onos, it's really obvious that the Onos wins 1v1 by a mile because of the DPS/DAMAGE TYPE issue I was referring to.
Wtf. Please re-read my post. How do you draw these conclusions, I do not know. Please play more and speculate less on forums?
Exo suits without armour upgrades go down very easily. Higher armour levels allow it to retreat and to get welded, making that investment somewhat worthwhile.
(starts ~5:12:00)
Game 4 of the NA finals showcases this hypothetical. All-in goes for ASAP jetpacks while we go for the standard onos play. Marine tech path went mines straight into jetpack. We went leap into onos.
Jetpacks finished @6:25 game time. Onos, after leap, finished at 7:25. The onos could have been out at probably ~6m if we had skipped leap. If you watch this game, though, you can see that 0/0 jetpacks with no upgrades and no phase gates still get rolled by the onos cheese. Food for thought: our first fade came out @10:50 game time; nearly 50% longer than the onos.
From my experience, 0/0 marines with jetpacks feel weaker against the onos strategy than upgrades (typically 2/1 or 3/1) + phase gates.
The exos are complete trash in competitive play. With no armor upgrades, exos are VERY fragile. And with only 1 minigun, the exo can't even get the onos to half hp before the onos closes the distance and kills it. Not to mention the onos is about 3x the speed of an exosuit, heals up easier, and puts out more damage.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Doesnt the onos cost 50% more PRes though? That should be partially expected
Alien comm dropping lifeforms is what is poor (imo).
Everyone is raving about how aliens are not that fun to play, well why not take the 75 res that is spent on an Onos and actually make whips more useful, shell upgrades and hive paths more useful, and sort out ALL the upgrades that no one really bothers with currently.
Whips need to be a tad more powerful, destroy grenades when it hits them (with reduced damage inflicted on the whip), and it should have an auto root function so moving whips is seen more often.
Stop crag/shift/shade from stacking within the same range and give them a boost, so placement becomes a lot more tactical and less 'carefree'.
Also adjust the upgrades to be more offensive and useful for combat, such as cloak disrupting the marines minimap and making lifeforms invisible to players until first hit from marines.
So much more potential in the width of the alien tech tree than the length.
Exo suits without armour upgrades go down very easily. Higher armour levels allow it to retreat and to get welded, making that investment somewhat worthwhile.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You don't like to be questioned, do you? Think you're above it?
Nah, I think you are wrong. I'm chalking this one up to player's unwillingness to go all in as marines, while being all too willing to do it as aliens because everyone else does it. Maybe release will bring some braver competitive players. One can only hope.
Wishful thinking I know... but honestly... They should completely remove the 1 minigun exo (Because it is utterly useless) and replace it with letting marines carry the HMG.
So, you still have the dual minigun exo which can deal a lot more damage than an HMG, and also has a lot of armor.
Competitive players generally never use exo's because they aren't needed. I won't go deep into my opinion of the exo suit, but I feel they are completely the wrong direction that UWE should have taken with the game. Were stuck with them now, but that doesn't mean there isn't room to add another weapon.
I want to hear UWE's logic for not bringing back the HMG (From a meta game perspective). I really don't care about the aesthetics of having 2 similar weapons in the game. Aesthetics are what have hindered this game the most anyway. Let's hear some real talk.
Go play NS1 and you will see how the HMG effects gameplay vs onos. It is essential in many cases. 1 HMG will make an onos back off and if you can successfully bait one into 2 HMG's you'll be in good luck (Which is probably why they added devour).
All those aspects made sense and were balanced. In NS2, however, we throw in these arbitrary and redundant exo suits that serve no purpose other than a lightshow / graphical fest. They aren't part of the meta game at all, which is pretty apparent when you are watching top level NS2 games.
Adding back in the HMG would fix a lot of imbalance in the game, and it wouldn't take away from exo's at all. We all know pubbers worship the ###### out of exo suits anyway and will always take one over an HMG that will require skill to use. It's the same effect as seeing people research exo's before jetpacks. It makes absolutely no sense at all, yet we see people doing it in pubs constantly. I highly doubt adding the HMG would hurt the game in any way shape or form. It can only help. Let's hear the flame.
Check out the <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XZT8KMG7_xY&feature=plcp" target="_blank">recent game 3 of exertus v archaea in the guru final</a>. Exertus as aliens on veil got onos at the 6:20 mark. How did marines respond? Armory block for their PG at subsector, then ninja PG in Y junction and shotgun rush the undefended hive at Cargo. Onos is too slow to cross the map before the other hive goes down. Game. OK I know it's archaea and they are going to win anyway, but there is a reason they win, they use the best strategies.
I think 6min onos should be removed, but I also think that before immediately jumping to conclude that the game balance is "broken," players should try harder to adapt and come up with answers.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I feel like you're grossly over stating the case to be made to fight against the super fast onos. I'll try to discuss your paragraphs I quoted in order.
You claim the onos is big and fairly slow, but really he isn't. He's actually quite mobile and nothing like an exosuit in terms of mobility. In fact, he's probably even faster than a gorge at getting around the map. You're right that an onos can get picked if he goes into a phasegate that is blocked with an armory. You see teams use that to stall when an onos comes out. The problem is marines can never mount meaningful attacks against a hive defended by an onos after that. An onos can completely bully the marines off the map. If the marines leave the phase gate with less than 3 marines defending it, then it is very easy for the onos to overrun it. And at the same time the alien team has the initiative to choose to mount a 6 player assault on the phase gate at any moment in time. This leaves marines very little ability to harass or force aliens to spread out or ping pong the onos at different sides of the map. Because if the marines send 2-3 shooters out to kill an RT, the onos simply kills the forward phase gate and it is GG. The onos is effectively forces the marines to use 3 guys to constantly zone the onos out. The harassment battles then end up being 2v4 in favor of the aliens.
In the arc vs exertus game, arc effectively won before the onos came out. The onos came out at 6:20 and by then arc had killed 3 RTs and exertus had just 1 standing. Because of this, exertus had no leap and slow skulks. In that build (223, I believe) there was huge advantages given to marines over slow skulk. Marines frequently 2v4'd due to knockback on melee and collision issues. In this game, I don't feel like arc overcame the onos. More I feel like the onos kept exertus in the game for 10 minutes longer than they deserved. Arc beat exertus in that game before the onos even came out. The onos was just a crutch that exertus used (brilliantly, I admit) to almost claw their way back in a game that they were clearly bested in.
I'd also like to add that this was played on veil (probably the worst map for aliens) on a very marine friendly build by the best shooting team in NS2. And they still almost lost to this onos cheese.
I agree that jumping to the conclusion of imbalance is not good. I'm confident that we're not jumping here.
As to alien play > marine play in the finals -- inv's marine play is actually much better than our alien play, but hitreg is atrocious in b225 when compared to b223. We only got to play 2 marine rounds. The first one we quit when our arcs wouldn't path through tram hub, but instead kept trying to go to server room. They apparently can't path over the rails throughout tram. Score one for playing tournaments on fresh patches with game breaking map bugs. Our second marine game we actually killed the second hive once, but still died to the *overpowered* onos drop after the second-second hive.
Nah, I think you are wrong. I'm chalking this one up to player's unwillingness to go all in as marines, while being all too willing to do it as aliens because everyone else does it. Maybe release will bring some braver competitive players. One can only hope.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I really do not mind explaining my points of view in. I do admit to having a bit of a short temper with you, since you are one of the more accomplished trolls on this forum. Now, if you actually were willing to understand what other people say and had it in you to actually play the game competitively in anyway, we could maybe have a decent discussion.
As to your accusations of no competitive teams willing to try quick exos, well, they're completely unfounded. Not only have we tried quick exos multiple times, we actually used them just last saturday in the ESL launch tournament. Exertus vs HBZ, round 2, Veil... ScardyBobs cast can be found at <a href="http://youtu.be/tu0ZgrBzxyw" target="_blank">http://youtu.be/tu0ZgrBzxyw</a>
Right, but I think you mixed up what I was saying. Fades are coming out for 50 pres 50% later than onos are coming out for 75 tres. My entire point is that the onos (endgame unit) is coming out before fades (midgame unit) because of the broken onos tres eggs.
In that tournament game, the onos came out about 7 minutes in while the fade came about 11 minutes in. That's pretty broken when you think about that.
Nah, I think you are wrong. I'm chalking this one up to player's unwillingness to go all in as marines, while being all too willing to do it as aliens because everyone else does it. Maybe release will bring some braver competitive players. One can only hope.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you think he's wrong then you leave me with no hope left for humanity.
How many ###### times do I have to tell you the thing is ineffective on a damage value/armor type level?
Do the ###### math and see that 3x rifles can do 1500 (2300 total Onos hp) damage with 100% accuracy in about 5 seconds, wheras the Exoskeleton does far less? 25 heavy DPS, so a meaningless 125 damage.. if I'm not mistaken.
I think you might do near 600 damage by the time your weapon is completely overheated. Pretty pathetic considering rifles do that much (~500)damage from 1 marine with a full magazine. Do you not research anything at all about this game before making these suggestions?
Ridiculous to think that it would make the difference in these matchups.
Nah, I think you are wrong. I'm chalking this one up to player's unwillingness to go all in as marines, while being all too willing to do it as aliens because everyone else does it. Maybe release will bring some braver competitive players. One can only hope.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Exertus does more testing of this crap than anyone else in competitive scrims and matches. They play more than probably every other team.
You really don't have to take his word for it, though. Just look at some past extremely long games in which marines occasionally go dual minigun exos. You still see these lvl 3 armor dual minigun exos get crushed by coordinated alien attacks. Why do you think a 0 armor (that's about half the hp of an a3 exo) with half the firepower is going to do any better?
Fact is single minigun exos aren't even worth the 50 pres. Even if you have a3, they just don't put out enough dps and are very easy to crush in competitive games. Dual minigun exos put out a fantastic amount of dps but are such a big target because they're only purchasable with pres. These exos still usually just spawn, defend for a while, then die in competitive games.
Ok, making such a claim was foolish, as I obviously cannot watch every competitive game played, and know that nobody has tried a certain strategy. However now I am left with even more questions.
Why did you try the exo route if you were so adamant that it would fail?
Why was there a +- 2 minute gap between researching exos and actually getting one on the field?
Why did you seemingly abandon the exo route 2 minutes after getting your first one on the field, and begin researching jetpacks?
Why did you go jetpacks with no weapon upgrades?
Why did you win? Do you attribute any of the cause to early exos?
<!--quoteo(post=1999620:date=Oct 29 2012, 12:01 PM:name=.ADHd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (.ADHd @ Oct 29 2012, 12:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1999620"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Adding back in the HMG would fix a lot of imbalance in the game, and it wouldn't take away from exo's at all. We all know pubbers worship the ###### out of exo suits anyway and will always take one over an HMG that will require skill to use. It's the same effect as seeing people research exo's before jetpacks. It makes absolutely no sense at all, yet we see people doing it in pubs constantly. I highly doubt adding the HMG would hurt the game in any way shape or form. It can only help. Let's hear the flame.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ok, you're elitist and not as good as you think you are. Sorry that's all the flame I can muster.
Would these HMG's be wieldable by jetpacks? Do you not think that that may change a few things? Level 2 JP LMG marines take down hives quick enough. Give them HMGs and things may fall apart quickly. And don't say that JP wouldn't be able to use it, that is awful design.
Early EXO's are quite useless due to the lack of armor upgrades....
Early EXO's are quite useless due to the lack of armor upgrades....<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Then maybe their base armor needs to be increased, and their scaling with upgrades decreased?
In somthing like SC2, when an imbalance is found, they have a much better idea of how to fix it, because thousands upon thousands of people are playing, and they are all voicing their own opinions and strategies, and they can all be taken into account and it can be balanced across the board. Here, everyone just wants to be able to rush their shotguns and mines, and go straight to arms lab upgrades and get there jetpacks and be done with it.
Why did you try the exo route if you were so adamant that it would fail?
Why was there a +- 2 minute gap between researching exos and actually getting one on the field?
Why did you seemingly abandon the exo route 2 minutes after getting your first one on the field, and begin researching jetpacks?
Why did you go jetpacks with no weapon upgrades?
Why did you win? Do you attribute any of the cause to early exos?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That was the last match in the round robin part of the tournament and we had won all previous games. We were in a position where we already had won the bracket and could not lose position by losing a round. We wanted to do something different for a change and we also thought we had a fair chance of pulling a win even with the exo handicap. Thus our comm TrC - without telling us ;) - chose quick exos as the strategy (although we did from the start have a good hunch he was going for those). I do not remember everything about that match and I can't watch the video again at work, so I can't go into all the details. The reason we won despite the exo handicap was that we were more skilled as individuals and as a team. Also, our play on Veil is really solid as we like the map and play it a lot, so we have some kind of an advantage there also against most teams.
In somthing like SC2, when an imbalance is found, they have a much better idea of how to fix it, because thousands upon thousands of people are playing, and they are all voicing their own opinions and strategies, and they can all be taken into account and it can be balanced across the board. Here, everyone just wants to be able to rush their shotguns and mines, and go straight to arms lab upgrades and get there jetpacks and be done with it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
you just made a few assumptions:
1) that the current competitive players are not attempting to find ways to beat the onos. this is obviously not true, as I know we spent over 5+ hours in a server scrimming multiple teams and having them use the onos so that we could find ways to beat it. multiple people in this thread have also accounted for exertus and arc's extensive practice time, as well, but you seem to be ignoring them completely. the fact is, competitive players would not be, well, <i>competitive</i> if they weren't trying to find ways to win constantly. it's a really elitist assumption to make, to assume that everyone who plays competitively is simply a whiner who just uses the flavor of the month strategy.
2) that the current players want to just continue using the same strategies. actually, one of the largest complaints is that there are hardly any viable tech paths for alien, how they're required to be on two hives to stay competitive, etc. everyone has been complaining that there are not enough strategies. for there to be only one that's commonly used doesn't help the game grow at all. it doesn't look appealing competitively, either. SC2 is not plagued by the same issues that NS2 has, so it's not really fair to draw that comparison.
sigh, why am I feeding the troll
I agree the onos egg comes too early. However, in a stalemate, say, on Veil, and two teams are fighting to move forward, the marines can fully tech and finish off aliens in time.
The aliens are limited their third tech, and if you move the onos egg to three hives, removed a counter to exos and JP.
I think waht someone said earlier is best. Tie it to hive maturation. Have the hive mature in 180 seconds from completion. Heck, even have a timer on the onos egg icon to show how long before it's ready.
You can also add a longer evolution delay to the egg. Maybe double it even?
This resolves the 5 minute onos egg, but DOESN'T COMPLETELY REMOVE a valid tactic later.
<!--quoteo(post=1999588:date=Oct 29 2012, 11:11 AM:name=Squirreli_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squirreli_ @ Oct 29 2012, 11:11 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1999588"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Since I personally would like to see the onos appear later and I would like to see late game aliens able to buy tres onoses to make a come-back from losing their second hive, here is a quick suggestion for you to bash. Just to explore our options here, really... Onos Hatchery. Structure that requires 2 hives to build, costs 20-30 res and takes something like 60 seconds to grow. Onos egg drops not locked to hives but to a grown hatchery, so 1 hive aliens with hatchery could still try a comeback with tres onoses.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I like this idea. Maybe make it a hatchery for all higher lifeforms instead of only the onos. It could have a long building time and low health so sniping that is a valid tactic.
Together with a building that is needed to research the skulk-abilities (instead of researching them in the second hive) would also balance the importance of the second hive better.
TL;DR: An Onos-Drop is fine, BUT not this early. Increasing the costs for the onos-egg may be a bandaid fix, but after that an own building would be best, to create a counter for the marines (=sniping that building).
UWE has been keeping an eye on competitive streams the whole weekend so I think they must be familiar with early onos predominance. Also, the game is still pretty much in flux and any balance mod will have most of its work nullified by next few patches. Now, I personally consider balance mods a good way to try out things and a way to give weight to balance argumentation (ie. "look, we tweaked this and this and these are the results as shown in this video"). I would not however participate in making one or even playing one at this stage, as much in the core game will still change. Later on it will be a different matter, but right now I'm not terribly excited about the idea.
I can't say I understand NS2 deep enough to really have a concrete say, but I feel tweaking numbers for better balance is going to be more bandaid on top of the bandaid. For example if you fix the onos egg things, you need to probably fix the early game skulks, maybe adjust the fade timings and so on. The onos is just the peak of the iceberg - nerf it and other issues come into play.
I don't even want to have a guess on whether it's possible to reach a decent balance by just tweaking around the existing structure, but to me it seems that the real long lasting solution would be to tackle the actual issues with skulk scaling, lifeform roles and maybe even with res model and so on. However, that's much bigger and much more controversial of a project altogether.
Conclusion, this seems like a competitive problem answer? Make it a competitive solution.... Agree on tournament rules.
As far as alien OP, for the past few weeks a lot of skilled players have stacked rines rather then get frustrated as alien. Now with 225 I am seeing people that last week only played rine play alien
Conclusion, people want to play alien since they havnt played it since 221 as such there is a alien stack. Solution ignore week one game stats and see how it evolves.