Lerk game play issues.
Metal Handkerchief
Join Date: 2012-11-09 Member: 168697Members
Join Date: 2012-11-09 Member: 168697Members
OK, after buying the game I have logged over 30 hours of playing Lerk almost exclusively, and I think it's time to express some concerns now that I have an informed opinion.
-Spore cloud size: when carpeting a hallway full of marines, flying <b>exactly</b> in the middle of the hallway, hitting left mouse button as I enter in one end and release as I exit. They will survive simply by hugging the wall. Or at least it seems like this to me. Because somehow, they are trapped in the middle of a hallway with 2 exits, the hallway is full of spores, and all of them survive? This has boggled my mind ever since I started, so I've repeated it so many times to find out what's going on. Today I peeked my head in after leaving some marines and they were not trying to escape the hallway, they were hugging the wall. And they lived. This should not be possible! It's a tiny hallway!
-Armor 2-3. Once marines get armor 2, you can keep shooting those goons forever with spikes if you like, they're not dropping. Even when no armory's around for miles they somehow never drop. Are you trying to tell me to go Onos. No, I will not! Lerks and Fades both need researchables or something (lerks offensively, fades defensively) to be able to continue to operate once marines hit A2/ W2. At that point we get reduced to bystanders and occasional spore dusters for the final push where we would be more useful as Onos anyway (yawn) - though I'm not sure about fades as I haven't played them much but they seem overly squishy mid-late game.
-Jetpacks. Yeah, I totally get rock/paper/scissors, where Lerk are scissors and jetpacks are one half of a rock. It's just that I feel a Lerk with celerity should never be caught up to after a spore dive. If you can see the Lerk and fail to kill it as it passes, it should be over. Not only do these guys simply get out of the spores, but they keep up and can persist on your ass forever, and god forbid they have an actual rifle, there's nowhere you can run. Jetpacks needs a big reduction on fuel burst time. This is also seen when they are attacking hives for skulks. Jetpacks are too early in the game to be that op. Right now I see marines burning their fuel willy-nilly because there really is no reason to conserve it much. It lasts too long and as such they are too easy to use to gain such an advantage.
-Persistency of umbra? How are you supposed to be doing anything but concentrate solely on umbra for the short duration it has. Give this ability to those repair drones instead, they wouldn't bemoan such a meaningless and ultimately use-deprived task. I realize it's useful to any Onos, but really, it's a bit of a ###### move to put a 0.3 nanosecond duration on it, robbing you of any other meaningful contribution.
-Spore cloud size: when carpeting a hallway full of marines, flying <b>exactly</b> in the middle of the hallway, hitting left mouse button as I enter in one end and release as I exit. They will survive simply by hugging the wall. Or at least it seems like this to me. Because somehow, they are trapped in the middle of a hallway with 2 exits, the hallway is full of spores, and all of them survive? This has boggled my mind ever since I started, so I've repeated it so many times to find out what's going on. Today I peeked my head in after leaving some marines and they were not trying to escape the hallway, they were hugging the wall. And they lived. This should not be possible! It's a tiny hallway!
-Armor 2-3. Once marines get armor 2, you can keep shooting those goons forever with spikes if you like, they're not dropping. Even when no armory's around for miles they somehow never drop. Are you trying to tell me to go Onos. No, I will not! Lerks and Fades both need researchables or something (lerks offensively, fades defensively) to be able to continue to operate once marines hit A2/ W2. At that point we get reduced to bystanders and occasional spore dusters for the final push where we would be more useful as Onos anyway (yawn) - though I'm not sure about fades as I haven't played them much but they seem overly squishy mid-late game.
-Jetpacks. Yeah, I totally get rock/paper/scissors, where Lerk are scissors and jetpacks are one half of a rock. It's just that I feel a Lerk with celerity should never be caught up to after a spore dive. If you can see the Lerk and fail to kill it as it passes, it should be over. Not only do these guys simply get out of the spores, but they keep up and can persist on your ass forever, and god forbid they have an actual rifle, there's nowhere you can run. Jetpacks needs a big reduction on fuel burst time. This is also seen when they are attacking hives for skulks. Jetpacks are too early in the game to be that op. Right now I see marines burning their fuel willy-nilly because there really is no reason to conserve it much. It lasts too long and as such they are too easy to use to gain such an advantage.
-Persistency of umbra? How are you supposed to be doing anything but concentrate solely on umbra for the short duration it has. Give this ability to those repair drones instead, they wouldn't bemoan such a meaningless and ultimately use-deprived task. I realize it's useful to any Onos, but really, it's a bit of a ###### move to put a 0.3 nanosecond duration on it, robbing you of any other meaningful contribution.
Comments
YOu're not supposed to kill 2-3 marines in a row...you're not supposed to be this deadly force from the skies.
You're supposed to compliment the rest of your team, by flying, softening enemies up, and causing enemies to waste their time shooting you, while your allies kill them.
YOu're not supposed to kill 2-3 marines in a row...you're not supposed to be this deadly force from the skies.
You're supposed to compliment the rest of your team, by flying, softening enemies up, and causing enemies to waste their time shooting you, while your allies kill them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I know. That doesn't change ANY of my issues, so please read the complete OP before posting. Thanks.
<!--quoteo(post=2021514:date=Nov 12 2012, 07:22 PM:name=Snypr18)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Snypr18 @ Nov 12 2012, 07:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2021514"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I would also really like to see a SMALL boost in spike damage. It is really, really low.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
At least boost headshot damage to at least 3X of what it is. If you're good enough to hit someone's head twice from across the biggest rooms, whatever you shot at should not be breathing, much less running to the nearest 7/11... err... Armoury with a troll face.
To put things in perspective, I don't touch Lerk or Fade. Gorge if nobody else will go Gorge, but other than that, Skulk or Onos for me. The other two just seem pointless. I find the Lerk to be too situational, especially when you can just brute force things with an Onos instead of fart around the map and be a pest to Marines. I mean yeah, you're helping by using umbra and spore clouds, but does that offset just adding another Onos to the army? To me, no.
**Also useless compared to certain other creatures.
**Also less useless than certain other creatures.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
My OP was not really about balance. It was about game design fallacies.
-Why even bother designing a unit whose main function is to leave a cloud so small that in the smallest possible tubular space in the game it's enemies can simply hug the sides to negate all possible injury. That's not just imbalanced, that's a huge failure of game design.
-Why make the only air support of an entire army so defensively and offensively weak that once the fully mobile TANKS of the opposing army gets "wings" (aka jetpacks) they can follow you to the end of the world and bring you down no matter what.
-Why design a tertiary (!) ability that is <i>kinda</i> useful but you have to completely devote to it to your full extent in the heat of battle to get benefit from it at all? That takes no micro, it takes no skill, it is a boring botworthy job and denies you of doing anything fun.
-Why design a unit whose main attack does LESS THAN 10% of their enemies' HP in damage??!!? AT ALL??
And don't tell me if the Onos was nerfed to weaksauce then more players would Lerk because skulks are actually more powerful in 99% of situations in the hands of any competent player.
I myself, having played far less with skulk than with lerk, still get more kills as a skulk, and by a very, very significant factor. And the support side of the lerk does not in any way justify that.
I don't find jetpacks any more dangerous than standard marines, so this might be another issue where you are trying to outspeed them rather than outmaneuver them.
And umbra is incredibly powerful if you use it right. being able to lay down umbra as well as shoot spikes or what have you would be too potent.
-Spore cloud size: when carpeting a hallway full of marines, flying <b>exactly</b> in the middle of the hallway, hitting left mouse button as I enter in one end and release as I exit. They will survive simply by hugging the wall. Or at least it seems like this to me. Because somehow, they are trapped in the middle of a hallway with 2 exits, the hallway is full of spores, and all of them survive? This has boggled my mind ever since I started, so I've repeated it so many times to find out what's going on. Today I peeked my head in after leaving some marines and they were not trying to escape the hallway, they were hugging the wall. And they lived. This should not be possible! It's a tiny hallway!
-Armor 2-3. Once marines get armor 2, you can keep shooting those goons forever with spikes if you like, they're not dropping. Even when no armory's around for miles they somehow never drop. Are you trying to tell me to go Onos. No, I will not! Lerks and Fades both need researchables or something (lerks offensively, fades defensively) to be able to continue to operate once marines hit A2/ W2. At that point we get reduced to bystanders and occasional spore dusters for the final push where we would be more useful as Onos anyway (yawn) - though I'm not sure about fades as I haven't played them much but they seem overly squishy mid-late game.
-Jetpacks. Yeah, I totally get rock/paper/scissors, where Lerk are scissors and jetpacks are one half of a rock. It's just that I feel a Lerk with celerity should never be caught up to after a spore dive. If you can see the Lerk and fail to kill it as it passes, it should be over. Not only do these guys simply get out of the spores, but they keep up and can persist on your ass forever, and god forbid they have an actual rifle, there's nowhere you can run. Jetpacks needs a big reduction on fuel burst time. This is also seen when they are attacking hives for skulks. Jetpacks are too early in the game to be that op. Right now I see marines burning their fuel willy-nilly because there really is no reason to conserve it much. It lasts too long and as such they are too easy to use to gain such an advantage.
-Persistency of umbra? How are you supposed to be doing anything but concentrate solely on umbra for the short duration it has. Give this ability to those repair drones instead, they wouldn't bemoan such a meaningless and ultimately use-deprived task. I realize it's useful to any Onos, but really, it's a bit of a ###### move to put a 0.3 nanosecond duration on it, robbing you of any other meaningful contribution.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1- make a second pass, you can see the area it's covering
2- you're not supposed to solo a team as lerk you take them down a bit and let the other classes clean them up such as a skulk
3- attempting to spore a jetpack is just silly why are you not biting him or spiking and then following up with a bite, half the time jetpackers can't aim and fly at the same time so bite the hell out of them
4- two lerks covering your onos from potential lethal damage isn't contributing to the fight?
That is an idiotic assumption. I have been playing against many skilled opponents, and though timing is critical (which I have mastered) I can escape most hallways in that scenario with 25%+ health left.
<!--quoteo(post=2021549:date=Nov 12 2012, 07:46 PM:name=Volcano)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Volcano @ Nov 12 2012, 07:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2021549"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->1- make a second pass, you can see the area it's covering
2- you're not supposed to solo a team as lerk you take them down a bit and let the other classes clean them up such as a skulk
3- attempting to spore a jetpack is just silly why are you not biting him or spiking and then following up with a bite, half the time jetpackers can't aim and fly at the same time so bite the hell out of them
4- two lerks covering your onos from potential lethal damage isn't contributing to the fight?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1) Yeah, because the second time around they will surely not know I'm coming and shoot me to pieces.
2) That is idiotic, sorry. If 4 marines are dumb enough to line up in a hallway they should die to spores. End of.
3) It's not about sporing the one guy with a jetpack, it's the 3 other marines without jetpacks. The point is with celerity, that 1 jetpack shouldn't be able to follow me across entire acres of map.
4) Yes, but it's an asinine task that can be performed by a facerolling toddler, and it's taking up all of my time.
Try gasing in front of the entrance theyre moving too. They wont be able to attack you except for a brief period where your in front of the hallway, 9 out of 10 times they wont submit themselves to damage from the spores, and the few that try and run through usually isolate themselves for an easy pick.
pretty much this, spore is also a smokescreen for skulks to surprise the enemy
I know. How could I not know (and love) this after devoting 100% of my play time to the lerk ever since buying the game? It's just that in playing lerk I have encountered so many facepalm asinine design failures that it has started to wear me down, because I know lerk is the most fun thing in the game but also the most frustrating, and I know eventually I will quit from it because it creates this nauseating detest in my stomach towards the "almost but so far away" game play of it.
The support is not good.
The damage is not good.
Two halves (or quarters, in this case) does not make a whole.
And bite is bloody amazing to tangle with jetpackers. You just need to be very agile with the Lerk darting back and forth to evade incoming fire...
Why are you expecting to take down a group of marines, that is just silly...
Lerk is still way more balanced than the fade which is trash.
I'm sorry; you seem to be missing the point that a Lerk isn't a combat unit. It's a support unit.
As has been stated multiple times, you aren't meant to be doing the majority of the killing. Or half. Or even a third. There are 3 classes who's sole purpose is killing: Onos, Skulk, Fade.
This lack of acknowledgement is illustrated in your #4 complaint by saying: <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I realize it's useful to any Onos, but really, it's a bit of a ###### move to put a 0.3 nanosecond duration on it, robbing you of any other meaningful contribution.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Except... that <b>is</b> your meaningful contribution. I'm not sure what more you want for it to be more satisfying, but a well played Lerk makes everyone around them more effective through distraction, weakening enemies, and both aggressive and defensive AoE abilities. Not through kills
exactly, everything needs to be balanced better, to make everything viable (to an extent, or at least seen) like starcraft
You're all missing the point. Any (and I really mean ANY) unit in ANY game must *<i>feel</i>* like it's accomplishing something for players to enjoy it. All players playing aliens will have one class they gravitate towards because they like the style of that class. For me that is Lerk. Exclusively Lerk, in fact. But once in a blue moon, I have to kill someone, <b>everyone does</b>, no player ever in the history of humans, will simply take a developers word for: "this class is fun because you are helping in this case by doing this and this" if you are <i>never actually feeling it.</i> You have to have extreme situations on any map where ANY of these classes can excel at <i>killing</i>.
Gorges have cleverly placed hydras and freaking bile bomb nukes FFS.
Fades have singled-out roaming marines and unattended positions.
Skulks are a means-to-an-end that you have to progress through and adept at killing in skilled hands.
Onos are literally everything else.
Lerk? Lerk kind of just pew pews?
I don't buy that ######.
Any game developer would know the base psychological needs in playing games. They wouldn't aim to make a class un-fun. I'm not saying the lerk doesn't have it moments, but 99% of the time I feel like time is being wasted, the best planned ambushes do nothing, try to divert attention by going to one of their bases and shooting their phase gate but they're there within seconds and I barely haven't made a dent (and yes, I know that IS THE POINT ALMIGHTY PEOPLE WHOSE WORD I SHOULD TAKE FOR GRANTED) but while in playing a lerk I KNOW that my goal is to harass and not get many kills, there SHOULD BE SOME EXTREME SITUATION where I CAN get many kills because of enemy stupidity! Marines running ranger file in a cramped space SHOULD BE THAT EXTREME SITUATION.
Capitalising words for laziness of not pushing the bold button at 4:30 AM.
Spike your target when moving in, if you have spores available you can throw those down as soon as you are in range. After which you can either use biting-runs or spike-runs to finish them using the spores as cover or other aliens are a distraction.
Try and move in when other aliens are also attacking, those bite-runs and spike-runs are very effective.
Also if you don't enjoy the class, that is not really a issue with the class... I and I know a lot of people do enjoy the class, because we accept it as a support/harasser and you can choose your target on your own terms. You seem to want to change it into an assault class...
Maybe you should read the last post again.
<!--quoteo(post=2021601:date=Nov 12 2012, 08:32 PM:name=Techercizer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Techercizer @ Nov 12 2012, 08:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2021601"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think Lerk is fine. Not every class is for every person; maybe try going Fade more often.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Don't like it, too slow, too high profile, messy etc.
Anyway, most people I've met agree with the lerk needing something... A little nudge, to work. Whether the most active forum apologists will agree with that or not is their right, but new players may not have my patience.
The fact that people even are being apologists towards the AoE in a hallway issue is to be frank quite disheartening and I feel like the <i>real</i> alien faction is here on the forums not in the game :P
What exactly do you think I'm responding to :)
<!--quoteo(post=2021602:date=Nov 13 2012, 03:34 AM:name=Metal Handkerchief)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Metal Handkerchief @ Nov 13 2012, 03:34 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2021602"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The fact that people even are being apologists towards the AoE in a hallway issue is to be frank quite disheartening and I feel like the <i>real</i> alien faction is here on the forums not in the game :P<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It is vision obscuring and already does heavy damage to marines that do get stuck in the spores. What more do you want it to do... Marines need a possibility to counter it. however by avoiding it or running away from it you are messing with their positioning to pave the way for another attack, either by you or your team...
It is vision obscuring and already does heavy damage to marines that do get stuck in the spores. What more do you want it to do... Marines need a possibility to counter it. however by avoiding it or running away from it you are messing with their positioning to pave the way for another attack, either by you or your team...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You know what, I'm tired and sleepy and maybe I'll get back to it in the morning, but here's the deal:
Anything a lerk can do, a marine with jetpack and flamethrower + pistol can do 10 times better, with more protection.
Because ###### balance, right?
I know the game balances teams, not individuals, but this is still borderline stunted from a game design perspective... If I'm the only one that sees it, god and heavens I might just completely lose faith in humanity. You've obviously played this game for so long and gotten so ingrained with shifts in balance through patching that it takes completely fresh eyes (and OPEN eyes) to see just how ###### up this situation is. I love lerk and want it to be feasible. It doesn't need much, but it does need <i>something</i>.
on spores:
<!--quoteo(post=2021607:date=Nov 12 2012, 08:38 PM:name=Kouji_San)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kouji_San @ Nov 12 2012, 08:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2021607"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It is vision obscuring and already does heavy damage to marines that do get stuck in the spores. What more do you want it to do... Marines need a possibility to counter it. however by avoiding it or running away from it you are messing with their positioning to pave the way for another attack, either by you or your team...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah but like I said, they just shift a half inch to the side and they live. They all know that. My first reaction this was bug abuse.
Because if they, you know, actually had to make a split second decision to leg it to either entrance of the hallway, that would be fun for me as they will panic IRL, maybe even split up! Hey, what happens now? Oh yeah, they will shout to the person/people running the wrong way "come this way!" "we're splitting up!" and that guy will second guess what he's done, hesitate, continue or run back! Either way, he either turns around and dies because he's been in spores for too long, or gets separated from the others. This makes a lerk, you know, feared. Instead of just, "oh, spores. Better hump the walls!"
Which is more fun? FOR EITHER SIDE? If the spores have to be dealt with as an ACTUAL threat, it's exhilirating for both sides. The current design is atrocious.
And I really question your vision obscured point. It is really not that obscuring. It's a thin sliver of green going in a narrow spiral that at least I can see through easily on my graphical settings.
Anything a lerk can do, a marine with jetpack and flamethrower + pistol can do 10 times better, with more protection.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That right there shows how poorly you understand the class. You need to spend some time learning to play it well before your criticize.