<!--quoteo(post=2021507:date=Nov 12 2012, 10:17 PM:name=Mkilbride)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mkilbride @ Nov 12 2012, 10:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2021507"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Lerk is a harassment unit, designed to annoy, and support other lifeforms.
YOu're not supposed to kill 2-3 marines in a row...you're not supposed to be this deadly force from the skies.
You're supposed to compliment the rest of your team, by flying, softening enemies up, and causing enemies to waste their time shooting you, while your allies kill them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Really, I was pretty impressed with how Fana did with the lerk in ESL. Could have fooled me anyways.
Imbalanxd how does my statement not make sense to you? You've been around long enough to know that UWE didn't originally want the lerk to have a 'skulk-like' bite or spikes that did too much damage. They wanted the lerk's playstyle to be different from what it is now, which is basically a flying skulk that shoots spikes.
<!--quoteo(post=2021632:date=Nov 13 2012, 12:01 PM:name=Bullet_Force)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bullet_Force @ Nov 13 2012, 12:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2021632"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yes you can if you want to sit there for 5 minutes holding the button down. The damage the spike does is a joke and late game is completely pointless against Marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> shows that its either you pick a wrong target and you do not know when to call a skulk to help. if no one is responding to your threat just call in a skulk and finish it. and i mention that hive for a reason.
<!--quoteo(post=2021633:date=Nov 13 2012, 12:03 PM:name=ChickenOfWar)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ChickenOfWar @ Nov 13 2012, 12:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2021633"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In all my time playing that has never actually been effective, only annoying to the enemy team. And once they get an idea of what you're doing the jig is up and if you keep trying you'll get shot down. Basically your time is better spent doing other tasks, such as supporting.
Lerks really aren't meant to destroy structures anyways, I see them being a type of assassin/support class. Umbra being the main obvious support ability but spores can support as well. My spike/bite synergy idea would make the lerk the assassin as well.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
annoying. working as intended. and if you done some panacking correctly it is really hard to get hit in pubs. most likely it would take a couple of marines get shotguns to hunt you down. or if you think holding by 2-3 marines just chasing your rambo ass isnt an effective strategy...
playing lerk and fade is all about mobility and flexibility. if you stick to one sole target or strategy, you are doing it wrong.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
Disagree with OP (comp games are a good example of what an adept killer it can be as well as a support unit.)
Except for umbra needing more time that 0.3 seconds... I agree and that annoys the crap out of me, personally. The graphics might be misrepresenting whats going on, too.. *runs off and makes a bug report*
And personally, i'd give anything to have the class move 1 or 2 digits in speed (back to 13 where it sat comfortably for months without complaint afailk?) so celerity wasn't a must for the lifeform everytime.
Uh oh, is umbra visual not representative of the effect? Something kinda sad about, the way things have come to be. Desintized to spores success, what became of my silent lerk bite abiltiy?
I'll, keep, digging, till, I'm, allowed, to burrow freelely.
Elbow deep within the dev's frrrr ont alaaa loobe ...
<!--quoteo(post=2021794:date=Nov 13 2012, 09:16 AM:name=ChickenOfWar)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ChickenOfWar @ Nov 13 2012, 09:16 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2021794"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Imbalanxd how does my statement not make sense to you? You've been around long enough to know that UWE didn't originally want the lerk to have a 'skulk-like' bite or spikes that did too much damage. They wanted the lerk's playstyle to be different from what it is now, which is basically a flying skulk that shoots spikes.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Its the <b>flying </b>skulk with <b>projectiles </b>not being a different playstyle part. Kinda like how an Onos is a <b>huge </b>skulk that <b>charges</b>.
For 30 res it's a bargain. Spikes are massively useful in sniping anything from sentry batteries to exo suits (it's so easy to take one down by yourself if they don't figure out where you're shooting from). Bite does ok damage. Great for hit and running. And spores are just bloody brilliant throughout the whole game. Umbra may be a bit underused, but perhaps because it's a defense mechanism, and most people would rather spam spores than umbra. It's also researched late mostly, but the umbra itself seems decent enough without being OP.
I can't think of anything wrong with this lifeform.
<!--quoteo(post=2021505:date=Nov 13 2012, 04:13 AM:name=Metal Handkerchief)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Metal Handkerchief @ Nov 13 2012, 04:13 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2021505"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->OK, after buying the game I have logged over 30 hours of playing Lerk almost exclusively, and I think it's time to express some concerns now that I have an informed opinion.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You will need more play time to make sure your accused balance-problems aren't just missing experience on your side.
<!--quoteo(post=2021505:date=Nov 13 2012, 04:13 AM:name=Metal Handkerchief)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Metal Handkerchief @ Nov 13 2012, 04:13 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2021505"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->-Spore cloud size: when carpeting a hallway full of marines, flying <b>exactly</b> in the middle of the hallway, hitting left mouse button as I enter in one end and release as I exit. They will survive simply by hugging the wall. Or at least it seems like this to me. Because somehow, they are trapped in the middle of a hallway with 2 exits, the hallway is full of spores, and all of them survive? This has boggled my mind ever since I started, so I've repeated it so many times to find out what's going on. Today I peeked my head in after leaving some marines and they were not trying to escape the hallway, they were hugging the wall. And they lived. This should not be possible! It's a tiny hallway!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Spore cloud is devastating. If the hallway is to tall, fly 2 ways. One time left, one time right. Or even better, fly zig zag, so you won't be so easy to hit. What you want is spores to be not counterable. This is never good design. Use it to open the battle for skulks. Spores are already incredible effective. Learn to use them right.
<!--quoteo(post=2021505:date=Nov 13 2012, 04:13 AM:name=Metal Handkerchief)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Metal Handkerchief @ Nov 13 2012, 04:13 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2021505"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->-Armor 2-3. Once marines get armor 2, you can keep shooting those goons forever with spikes if you like, they're not dropping. Even when no armory's around for miles they somehow never drop. Are you trying to tell me to go Onos. No, I will not! Lerks and Fades both need researchables or something (lerks offensively, fades defensively) to be able to continue to operate once marines hit A2/ W2. At that point we get reduced to bystanders and occasional spore dusters for the final push where we would be more useful as Onos anyway (yawn) - though I'm not sure about fades as I haven't played them much but they seem overly squishy mid-late game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The Lerk is a harasser you aren't supposed to be a killing machine. But single marines are actually no problem for a lerk. Use your weapons in conjunction. Bite the marines to poison him, use some spores to force him to flee. And finish him with spikes. You can't expect to win if you only lose 1/3 of your weapons.
<!--quoteo(post=2021505:date=Nov 13 2012, 04:13 AM:name=Metal Handkerchief)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Metal Handkerchief @ Nov 13 2012, 04:13 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2021505"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->-Jetpacks. Yeah, I totally get rock/paper/scissors, where Lerk are scissors and jetpacks are one half of a rock. It's just that I feel a Lerk with celerity should never be caught up to after a spore dive. If you can see the Lerk and fail to kill it as it passes, it should be over. Not only do these guys simply get out of the spores, but they keep up and can persist on your ass forever, and god forbid they have an actual rifle, there's nowhere you can run. Jetpacks needs a big reduction on fuel burst time. This is also seen when they are attacking hives for skulks. Jetpacks are too early in the game to be that op. Right now I see marines burning their fuel willy-nilly because there really is no reason to conserve it much. It lasts too long and as such they are too easy to use to gain such an advantage.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Actually Lerk is the best counter to jet packs. I don't see a problem in escaping them if necessary, nor do I have problems in killing single jet packers. I think you just should practice the lerk more and use all his weapons.
<!--quoteo(post=2021505:date=Nov 13 2012, 04:13 AM:name=Metal Handkerchief)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Metal Handkerchief @ Nov 13 2012, 04:13 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2021505"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->-Persistency of umbra? How are you supposed to be doing anything but concentrate solely on umbra for the short duration it has. Give this ability to those repair drones instead, they wouldn't bemoan such a meaningless and ultimately use-deprived task. I realize it's useful to any Onos, but really, it's a bit of a ###### move to put a 0.3 nanosecond duration on it, robbing you of any other meaningful contribution.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Not sure about this. I think it is debatable.
the problem with the Lerk is that it's a great pub-stomper when played semi-effectively, so that can throw off a lot of posts in this thread.
competitively, the Lerk isn't quite there:
it suffers from the same thing that the Skulk and Fade do - no scaling, and gets obliterated by w3 shotguns. we've tried t-res Lerk openings and it's worked decently. spikes are great early-game harassment, forcing commanders to spend lots of money on medpacks. the issue is against higher-skilled teams the Lerk's effectiveness drops off rapidly. good marine aimers can just shut down a lot of clever dodging. you can attempt to draw fire, but you pretty much can't drop below 100 hp. all it takes is one slip-up and you've lost a massive investment (<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WjVV6mK4PT0#t=1m45s" target="_blank">like this</a>).
the Lerk's damage output isn't really the issue, it's just the survivability, and the mechanics seem counter-intuitive.
thoughts:
O Umbra is fired from distance, but it's the ability that protects you while you're in the middle of their team, but Spores are the close range ability? abilities should synergize, that creates gameplay
O Spores are probably quite good, but I haven't had much use of it in games due to Onos being more important. however, I don't see many occasions where you wouldn't just bite instead as the AOE on spores is tragic. at that point you're flying close enough to be instagibbed anyway, so I don't think it really matters.
O flying feels good and maneuverable, maybe more flap force to add more skill in dodging mid-air?
O Lerks without celerity are way too slow, Lerks with celerity feel close to perfect. this might seem obvious, but every single alien game has degenerated into 6-minute Onos, so as a Lerk you spend over half of the game "way too slow", which is just frustrating and silly.
that said it's my favorite class, easily the most fun to play.
As everyone has said, lerk is a support class. What defines support class? You support the other players / life forms in getting kills. How can you accomplish this? Fly in first, distracting the marines (ie. they are shooting up in the air, where your skulks are not seen) while sporing them. Sporing may not be the insta kill ray that you hope it to be, and it shouldn't be. Once you have distracted the team, it is up to your team to take advantage of your distractions.
The spore cloud range is fine, you're just doing it wrong if you can't get them in a small hallway. Again, you are not supposed to be ramboing their main base and getting upset when you can't take it down alone. Fly unpredictably; don't fly straight down a hallway. Make it difficult for the marines to move. Make it difficult for them to advance. While worrying about avoiding your spore cloud, they can be easily picked off by your team.
rhombusLerk QueenJoin Date: 2011-06-23Member: 106055Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
I'll be glad to start streaming my lerk play again to show you that the lerk is actually in the most decent place its been in a long time.
Forget umbra. You're more use sporing groups of Marines and obstructing their vision. Only time I ever use umbra is to concentrate it on an onos or two that are hitting a power node.
Lerks without celerity are decent until Marines research weapons 1. The most it can do after that is risk itself for the kill or whittle away at the marine for team mates. Same goes for competitive. You attack with your team and you scout the map faster than a skulk. If your team is harassing one side you go and scout/harass the other.
I'll add more stuff later as typing on a handheld devices is making me pull my hair out. :)
I have a hard time deciding whether I like lerk or not. On pubs, it's a complete havoc machine, but in med-high level comp play I feel really fragile as it, as marines usually can aim much better at that level. Especially in comp play when the marines get armor level 2 or 3 (and especially jetpacks, shotguns), the means to kill them start decreasing as lerk. It would be nice if you could at least take out one ninja marine with a shotgun that is after your RTs, but that proves quite difficult sometimes.
Umbra isn't that useful either because the combat rarely stays in place enough that your teammates can take advantage of it.
I'm no pro lerk, tho. Practise, practise, practise...
It would be very helpful if spores were a tier1 research and umbra a tier2 research. If umbra proves to be too strong, it could have its effectiveness decreased to 33%. Actual usuable umbra would help a lot for the mid game (especially against the shotties).
rhombusLerk QueenJoin Date: 2011-06-23Member: 106055Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=2021986:date=Nov 13 2012, 08:38 AM:name=Bicsum)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bicsum @ Nov 13 2012, 08:38 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2021986"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It would be very helpful if spores were a tier1 research and umbra a tier2 research. If umbra proves to be too strong, it could have its effectiveness decreased to 33%. Actual usuable umbra would help a lot for the mid game (especially against the shotties).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What do you propose for a tier 3 ability? This was actually discussed nearly to death amongst the lerk playing playtesters a while ago. :/
<!--quoteo(post=2021946:date=Nov 13 2012, 01:26 PM:name=Princess_of_Power)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Princess_of_Power @ Nov 13 2012, 01:26 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2021946"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->the problem with the Lerk is that it's a great pub-stomper when played semi-effectively, so that can throw off a lot of posts in this thread.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Stopped reading there.
Fixed: the problem with the Lerk is that it may not perform well in competitive matches no matter how well its played, so that can throw off a lot of posts in this thread.
<!--quoteo(post=2021998:date=Nov 13 2012, 06:47 AM:name=SabaHell)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SabaHell @ Nov 13 2012, 06:47 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2021998"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What do you propose for a tier 3 ability? This was actually discussed nearly to death amongst the lerk playing playtesters a while ago. :/<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ideas what Primal Scream could buff to not do the same effect as the enzyme cloud from the drifter. <ul><li>Additional Damage dealt for a short time</li><li>Additional Movement Speed for a short time</li><li>Gives Energy</li><li>Gives Increased Energy Regeneration for a short time</li><li>Reduces Energy Cost of Attacks for a short time</li></ul>
<!--quoteo(post=2021976:date=Nov 13 2012, 02:22 PM:name=SabaHell)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SabaHell @ Nov 13 2012, 02:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2021976"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'll be glad to start streaming my lerk play again to show you that the lerk is actually in the most decent place its been in a long time.
Forget umbra. You're more use sporing groups of Marines and obstructing their vision. Only time I ever use umbra is to concentrate it on an onos or two that are hitting a power node.
Lerks without celerity are decent until Marines research weapons 1. The most it can do after that is risk itself for the kill or whittle away at the marine for team mates. Same goes for competitive. You attack with your team and you scout the map faster than a skulk. If your team is harassing one side you go and scout/harass the other.
I'll add more stuff later as typing on a handheld devices is making me pull my hair out. :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You say you should basically always have celerity, and that sporing marines is your main method of attack. Does this mean that you actively make runs on groups of marines who aren't more concerned with ground level attacks? If so, doesn't that conflict with your "attack with the team" point?
In my experience, if you are going the spores route, if you want to be optimally effective for your team, you have to have adrenaline. To compensate, you basically never fly anywhere near a marine who has more than a second to prepare for you. Sure, you might get blown out of the air in one shotgun hit by a marine who is also contending with 2 or 3 skulks at his ankles, but in such a case I doubt celerity would do a damn thing for you.
ArgathorJoin Date: 2011-07-18Member: 110942Members, Squad Five Blue
edited November 2012
<!--quoteo(post=2021998:date=Nov 13 2012, 12:47 PM:name=SabaHell)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SabaHell @ Nov 13 2012, 12:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2021998"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What do you propose for a tier 3 ability? This was actually discussed nearly to death amongst the lerk playing playtesters a while ago. :/<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why does it need one? It wouldn't impact public games at all and by tier 3 in competitive matches are almost over and lerks are support classes.
<i>edit: Not that I think any of this is relevant, the Lerk needs drastic changes to properly scale with marine aim skill. Its fantastic in publics against noobs and terrible against the best competitive players.</i>
Umbra would be a lot better if it stuck to any aliens that touch the cloud for the duration of that cloud.
I already like the cute play with bringing a drifter around to give aliens more attack and movement speed, so I don't know if giving aliens another similar ability would be wise.
<!--quoteo(post=2022008:date=Nov 13 2012, 06:55 AM:name=Skie)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Skie @ Nov 13 2012, 06:55 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2022008"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I already like the cute play with bringing a drifter around to give aliens more attack and movement speed, so I don't know if giving aliens another similar ability would be wise.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Enzyme Cloud Description taken from the Wiki: "The Drifter can shoot a cloud of hormones which increase the rate of attack for all Kharaa lifeforms. Affected lifeforms will glow in a red hue."
Rather than buffing armour and hp, why not increase base player speed between each tier? Aliens are all about territorial control, positioning and closing the gap. It would be interesting to see this as an asymmetry to the marine model.
I agree with a lot of the experienced posters on here, and spikes are deadly when you don't know where they are coming from. Kill you in seconds.
Survivability is a massive issue for the Aliens, experienced marines have the edge over experienced Aliens any day.
I want all Alien units to be effective at the end game, not just the Onos and perhaps the Lerk.
The fade isn't even worth playing, basically just a gimmicky skulk with a little more HP which doesn't help at all since you're slower, a much bigger target and with less attack.
<!--quoteo(post=2022012:date=Nov 13 2012, 02:59 PM:name=Nakorson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nakorson @ Nov 13 2012, 02:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2022012"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Enzyme Cloud Description taken from the Wiki: "The Drifter can shoot a cloud of hormones which increase the rate of attack for all Kharaa lifeforms. Affected lifeforms will glow in a red hue."
It says nothing about movement speed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Ah, true. Checked the code in case... I don't know what made me think it also affected movement speed. Might have been in some beta version.
<!--quoteo(post=2021998:date=Nov 13 2012, 01:47 PM:name=SabaHell)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SabaHell @ Nov 13 2012, 01:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2021998"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What do you propose for a tier 3 ability? This was actually discussed nearly to death amongst the lerk playing playtesters a while ago. :/<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Idk, bite? :>
I'd just break the consistency for the sake of balance.
The Lerk has been a confused and inconsistent lifeform for quite some time. SabaHell is right though, in saying that its current iterration is much better than it used to be.
But attempting to rationalize the Lerk's role as being "harass/support" has never sat well with me. The only reason the Lifeform plays like this is because its been shoehorned into that role. As well, the justification for this design assumes that the concept fits the implementation, but it simply doesn't.
Aside from the Fade, you're the most mobile Lifeform on the Alien team. So does that make the Lerk a scout? And while hit and run fits the role of a mobile harass unit, your primary tool for this is a Long range, low damage attack. Why does a high mobility, flying class rely on a ability that necessitates a sniper like playstyle? It's not a machine gun, its a BB gun. As well, the only real harass you provide is against marines. Your team loses more by you sitting in one place trying to spike down a building than the marines do by just ignoring you.
How about Spores then. Its not a support ability, its an Area Denial tool. And while I like the effect of spores, it seems counter intuitive that, again, its given to the Lifeform that has low survivability, but the highest mobility. Is it effective? Absolutely, but its application is counter intuitive to the Lifeform. The effect lasts only a short time, so the only way to effectively stall a marine push using spores is to sit there and use it repeatedly, while very likely getting shot, and hope you dont run out of energy. Again, why is this an ability of the Lifeform with the highest Mobility? Scout's don't bunker down and deny, they explore / intercept.
I've always been a fan of umbra. In 1.04, it was what allowed Lerks to scale into late game. Marines have upgraded weapons and armor? Well with umbra, you can get in there and stay in melee for a longer period of time. It was a meaningful counter to the Marine Tech advancement. But it just isn't anymore. Mostly because its underpowered, and generally the last upgrade on the Alien tech tree.
So...what really makes the Lerk a harasser? Spikes and Spores. Alright, I guess that works. What makes it a support? Spores and Umbra. I guess that makes sense. But wait a minute, the marines have a hard counter two both Spores and Umbra. Its called a flamethrower. One marine with a flame thrower negates an entire team of Lerks using Spores and Umbra.
So, without those, what exactly do you have? You have a 30 pRes flying Scout with a low damage, long range harass ability that, once late game rolls around, is more annoying than it is dangerous.
All of this aside, I do still agree with SabaHell. The Lerk is in the best place its been in since the beta (which apparently hasn't ended yet). But attempting to justify its role as a "harass/support" unit when Marines can a) Hard counter everything it does and b) out class it at its own role is just silly.
Lerks are not "great" at taking out Jetpackers. They're the only Lifeform other than a well aimed Fade that can Intercept a Jetpacker, and they're the only class (except a gorge which is laughable) that has a ranged attack. But if a gorge spit as fast as the Lerk's spikes fire, then they'd be just as capable at dealing with a jetpacker (disregarding damage, just rate of fire).
But lets be perfectly honest. Marines get passive 3/3 weapons and armor, and spend 30 pRes buying a Shotgun and a Jetpack. The Lerk, at a cost of 30 pRes, is massively out classed.
I think trying to make the Lerk's abilities do more, or making the Lifeform cost less would only throw it out of the balance its found currently. But don't try and sell me that its well designed. Or that Aliens somehow need a second support unit (whose abilities 2 support abilities are completely mitigated by the Flamethrower). If you believe that's good design, you're only kidding yourself.
Truth about umbra is its overpowered, just rarely seen as it requires a third hive, which aliens generally only take when they are already winning. It blocks every other bullet and is 'carried' by nearby players, thats way better than it ever was in NS1. That said lerk fits a really confused role currently because it cannot scale well to tier 2 with spores, and the fact it comes out too late to fit the role it needs to. Lerk spike DPS potential is actually insane, it its basically better than a rifle in every way except for the energy costs (higher rof, lower spread, more damage per spike). My best guess about why lerks do poorly is that they engage in 1v3 or higher fights if they do come out early, fight too many shotguns, or that in a larger fight everyone is going to shoot the lerk first. I would still rather see Umbra made tier2, and reduced somewhat in effectiveness (1/3 bullets or 2/5 or something). Crop dusting spores are always going to fit a niche restricted role, and while I think they are better on tier1 than spikes in concept the current implementations do not back that up.
I dont agree with the recent change to increase the lerks HP, but with the role as confused as it is currently its not as big an issue. And talking about pub lerk balance is IMO completely pointless, even the NS1 lerk was massively overpowered in most pubs simply because no one could actually hit a good lerk, and that still manages to hold true in NS2, potentially even more so if you abuse the animations of the lerk currently which can make you almost unhittable even to a good player.
My experience as Lerk has been quite enjoyable. When I play aliens, I typically skulk until I have the resources for lerk. As a skulk, I scout, parasite, and ambush in the early game. Going off yesterdays games, I would rarely die as skulk, getting parasites in topographical for example, then ambushing in east junction or following them to nano or c12 to give time for backup. Afterwards I would clean up any progress the marines made on extractors.
As a Lerk, I don't jump straight to the front line and try to advance on to enemy territory, and I don't bother trying to kill marine structures. With the mobility and speed of the lerk, I can act as the perfect ###### block to marines. If they try to get a resource tower anywhere, I will be there. While they build, I will swoop in, bite, and swoop out. Or, if they try to advance on to our territory, it will be perfectly safe. Trying to deal with a lerk flying around biting their faces off drastically increases the time it takes for them to kill anything of ours.
To put it shortly, when I go lerk, all marine advancement halts. And whatever progress we make is protected. I cannot take positions, it just doesn't work. I can support skulks when they rush, but I'm better off scouting and delaying marines.
I find myself getting away with a lot of crazy ###### in pubs, and often think Lerk is over powered. NOT A BOAST; I get around 25-30 kills per 1-2 deaths as a lerk against a average team, and the only deaths I have I attribute to either screwing up or being too cocky - not the lerk being underpowered in any way. I think anyone could be just as effective as a lerk if you give it time and learn how to choose your engagements.
<!--quoteo(post=2022111:date=Nov 13 2012, 05:06 PM:name=Wyattx3)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wyattx3 @ Nov 13 2012, 05:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2022111"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->My experience as Lerk has been quite enjoyable. When I play aliens, I typically skulk until I have the resources for lerk. As a skulk, I scout, parasite, and ambush in the early game. Going off yesterdays games, I would rarely die as skulk, getting parasites in topographical for example, then ambushing in east junction or following them to nano or c12 to give time for backup. Afterwards I would clean up any progress the marines made on extractors.
As a Lerk, I don't jump straight to the front line and try to advance on to enemy territory, and I don't bother trying to kill marine structures. With the mobility and speed of the lerk, I can act as the perfect ###### block to marines. If they try to get a resource tower anywhere, I will be there. While they build, I will swoop in, bite, and swoop out. Or, if they try to advance on to our territory, it will be perfectly safe. Trying to deal with a lerk flying around biting their faces off drastically increases the time it takes for them to kill anything of ours.
To put it shortly, when I go lerk, all marine advancement halts. And whatever progress we make is protected. I cannot take positions, it just doesn't work. I can support skulks when they rush, but I'm better off scouting and delaying marines.
I find myself getting away with a lot of crazy ###### in pubs, and often think Lerk is over powered. NOT A BOAST; I get around 25-30 kills per 1-2 deaths as a lerk against a average team, and the only deaths I have I attribute to either screwing up or being too cocky - not the lerk being underpowered in any way. I think anyone could be just as effective as a lerk if you give it time and learn how to choose your engagements.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Comments
YOu're not supposed to kill 2-3 marines in a row...you're not supposed to be this deadly force from the skies.
You're supposed to compliment the rest of your team, by flying, softening enemies up, and causing enemies to waste their time shooting you, while your allies kill them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Really, I was pretty impressed with how Fana did with the lerk in ESL. Could have fooled me anyways.
shows that its either you pick a wrong target and you do not know when to call a skulk to help. if no one is responding to your threat just call in a skulk and finish it. and i mention that hive for a reason.
<!--quoteo(post=2021633:date=Nov 13 2012, 12:03 PM:name=ChickenOfWar)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ChickenOfWar @ Nov 13 2012, 12:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2021633"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In all my time playing that has never actually been effective, only annoying to the enemy team. And once they get an idea of what you're doing the jig is up and if you keep trying you'll get shot down. Basically your time is better spent doing other tasks, such as supporting.
Lerks really aren't meant to destroy structures anyways, I see them being a type of assassin/support class. Umbra being the main obvious support ability but spores can support as well. My spike/bite synergy idea would make the lerk the assassin as well.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
annoying. working as intended. and if you done some panacking correctly it is really hard to get hit in pubs. most likely it would take a couple of marines get shotguns to hunt you down. or if you think holding by 2-3 marines just chasing your rambo ass isnt an effective strategy...
playing lerk and fade is all about mobility and flexibility. if you stick to one sole target or strategy, you are doing it wrong.
Except for umbra needing more time that 0.3 seconds... I agree and that annoys the crap out of me, personally. The graphics might be misrepresenting whats going on, too.. *runs off and makes a bug report*
And personally, i'd give anything to have the class move 1 or 2 digits in speed (back to 13 where it sat comfortably for months without complaint afailk?) so celerity wasn't a must for the lifeform everytime.
*shrug* Glad people are playing it though :)
I'll, keep, digging, till, I'm, allowed, to burrow freelely.
Elbow deep within the dev's frrrr ont alaaa loobe ...
Its the <b>flying </b>skulk with <b>projectiles </b>not being a different playstyle part. Kinda like how an Onos is a <b>huge </b>skulk that <b>charges</b>.
For 30 res it's a bargain. Spikes are massively useful in sniping anything from sentry batteries to exo suits (it's so easy to take one down by yourself if they don't figure out where you're shooting from). Bite does ok damage. Great for hit and running. And spores are just bloody brilliant throughout the whole game. Umbra may be a bit underused, but perhaps because it's a defense mechanism, and most people would rather spam spores than umbra. It's also researched late mostly, but the umbra itself seems decent enough without being OP.
I can't think of anything wrong with this lifeform.
You will need more play time to make sure your accused balance-problems aren't just missing experience on your side.
<!--quoteo(post=2021505:date=Nov 13 2012, 04:13 AM:name=Metal Handkerchief)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Metal Handkerchief @ Nov 13 2012, 04:13 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2021505"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->-Spore cloud size: when carpeting a hallway full of marines, flying <b>exactly</b> in the middle of the hallway, hitting left mouse button as I enter in one end and release as I exit. They will survive simply by hugging the wall. Or at least it seems like this to me. Because somehow, they are trapped in the middle of a hallway with 2 exits, the hallway is full of spores, and all of them survive? This has boggled my mind ever since I started, so I've repeated it so many times to find out what's going on. Today I peeked my head in after leaving some marines and they were not trying to escape the hallway, they were hugging the wall. And they lived. This should not be possible! It's a tiny hallway!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Spore cloud is devastating. If the hallway is to tall, fly 2 ways. One time left, one time right. Or even better, fly zig zag, so you won't be so easy to hit. What you want is spores to be not counterable. This is never good design. Use it to open the battle for skulks. Spores are already incredible effective. Learn to use them right.
<!--quoteo(post=2021505:date=Nov 13 2012, 04:13 AM:name=Metal Handkerchief)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Metal Handkerchief @ Nov 13 2012, 04:13 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2021505"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->-Armor 2-3. Once marines get armor 2, you can keep shooting those goons forever with spikes if you like, they're not dropping. Even when no armory's around for miles they somehow never drop. Are you trying to tell me to go Onos. No, I will not! Lerks and Fades both need researchables or something (lerks offensively, fades defensively) to be able to continue to operate once marines hit A2/ W2. At that point we get reduced to bystanders and occasional spore dusters for the final push where we would be more useful as Onos anyway (yawn) - though I'm not sure about fades as I haven't played them much but they seem overly squishy mid-late game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The Lerk is a harasser you aren't supposed to be a killing machine. But single marines are actually no problem for a lerk. Use your weapons in conjunction. Bite the marines to poison him, use some spores to force him to flee. And finish him with spikes. You can't expect to win if you only lose 1/3 of your weapons.
<!--quoteo(post=2021505:date=Nov 13 2012, 04:13 AM:name=Metal Handkerchief)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Metal Handkerchief @ Nov 13 2012, 04:13 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2021505"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->-Jetpacks. Yeah, I totally get rock/paper/scissors, where Lerk are scissors and jetpacks are one half of a rock. It's just that I feel a Lerk with celerity should never be caught up to after a spore dive. If you can see the Lerk and fail to kill it as it passes, it should be over. Not only do these guys simply get out of the spores, but they keep up and can persist on your ass forever, and god forbid they have an actual rifle, there's nowhere you can run. Jetpacks needs a big reduction on fuel burst time. This is also seen when they are attacking hives for skulks. Jetpacks are too early in the game to be that op. Right now I see marines burning their fuel willy-nilly because there really is no reason to conserve it much. It lasts too long and as such they are too easy to use to gain such an advantage.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually Lerk is the best counter to jet packs. I don't see a problem in escaping them if necessary, nor do I have problems in killing single jet packers. I think you just should practice the lerk more and use all his weapons.
<!--quoteo(post=2021505:date=Nov 13 2012, 04:13 AM:name=Metal Handkerchief)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Metal Handkerchief @ Nov 13 2012, 04:13 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2021505"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->-Persistency of umbra? How are you supposed to be doing anything but concentrate solely on umbra for the short duration it has. Give this ability to those repair drones instead, they wouldn't bemoan such a meaningless and ultimately use-deprived task. I realize it's useful to any Onos, but really, it's a bit of a ###### move to put a 0.3 nanosecond duration on it, robbing you of any other meaningful contribution.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not sure about this. I think it is debatable.
competitively, the Lerk isn't quite there:
it suffers from the same thing that the Skulk and Fade do - no scaling, and gets obliterated by w3 shotguns. we've tried t-res Lerk openings and it's worked decently. spikes are great early-game harassment, forcing commanders to spend lots of money on medpacks. the issue is against higher-skilled teams the Lerk's effectiveness drops off rapidly. good marine aimers can just shut down a lot of clever dodging. you can attempt to draw fire, but you pretty much can't drop below 100 hp. all it takes is one slip-up and you've lost a massive investment (<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WjVV6mK4PT0#t=1m45s" target="_blank">like this</a>).
the Lerk's damage output isn't really the issue, it's just the survivability, and the mechanics seem counter-intuitive.
thoughts:
O Umbra is fired from distance, but it's the ability that protects you while you're in the middle of their team, but Spores are the close range ability? abilities should synergize, that creates gameplay
O Spores are probably quite good, but I haven't had much use of it in games due to Onos being more important. however, I don't see many occasions where you wouldn't just bite instead as the AOE on spores is tragic. at that point you're flying close enough to be instagibbed anyway, so I don't think it really matters.
O flying feels good and maneuverable, maybe more flap force to add more skill in dodging mid-air?
O Lerks without celerity are way too slow, Lerks with celerity feel close to perfect. this might seem obvious, but every single alien game has degenerated into 6-minute Onos, so as a Lerk you spend over half of the game "way too slow", which is just frustrating and silly.
that said it's my favorite class, easily the most fun to play.
As everyone has said, lerk is a support class. What defines support class? You support the other players / life forms in getting kills. How can you accomplish this? Fly in first, distracting the marines (ie. they are shooting up in the air, where your skulks are not seen) while sporing them. Sporing may not be the insta kill ray that you hope it to be, and it shouldn't be. Once you have distracted the team, it is up to your team to take advantage of your distractions.
The spore cloud range is fine, you're just doing it wrong if you can't get them in a small hallway. Again, you are not supposed to be ramboing their main base and getting upset when you can't take it down alone. Fly unpredictably; don't fly straight down a hallway. Make it difficult for the marines to move. Make it difficult for them to advance. While worrying about avoiding your spore cloud, they can be easily picked off by your team.
Forget umbra. You're more use sporing groups of Marines and obstructing their vision. Only time I ever use umbra is to concentrate it on an onos or two that are hitting a power node.
Lerks without celerity are decent until Marines research weapons 1. The most it can do after that is risk itself for the kill or whittle away at the marine for team mates. Same goes for competitive. You attack with your team and you scout the map faster than a skulk. If your team is harassing one side you go and scout/harass the other.
I'll add more stuff later as typing on a handheld devices is making me pull my hair out. :)
Umbra isn't that useful either because the combat rarely stays in place enough that your teammates can take advantage of it.
I'm no pro lerk, tho. Practise, practise, practise...
What do you propose for a tier 3 ability? This was actually discussed nearly to death amongst the lerk playing playtesters a while ago. :/
Stopped reading there.
Fixed:
the problem with the Lerk is that it may not perform well in competitive matches no matter how well its played, so that can throw off a lot of posts in this thread.
Ideas what Primal Scream could buff to not do the same effect as the enzyme cloud from the drifter.
<ul><li>Additional Damage dealt for a short time</li><li>Additional Movement Speed for a short time</li><li>Gives Energy</li><li>Gives Increased Energy Regeneration for a short time</li><li>Reduces Energy Cost of Attacks for a short time</li></ul>
Forget umbra. You're more use sporing groups of Marines and obstructing their vision. Only time I ever use umbra is to concentrate it on an onos or two that are hitting a power node.
Lerks without celerity are decent until Marines research weapons 1. The most it can do after that is risk itself for the kill or whittle away at the marine for team mates. Same goes for competitive. You attack with your team and you scout the map faster than a skulk. If your team is harassing one side you go and scout/harass the other.
I'll add more stuff later as typing on a handheld devices is making me pull my hair out. :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You say you should basically always have celerity, and that sporing marines is your main method of attack. Does this mean that you actively make runs on groups of marines who aren't more concerned with ground level attacks? If so, doesn't that conflict with your "attack with the team" point?
In my experience, if you are going the spores route, if you want to be optimally effective for your team, you have to have adrenaline. To compensate, you basically never fly anywhere near a marine who has more than a second to prepare for you. Sure, you might get blown out of the air in one shotgun hit by a marine who is also contending with 2 or 3 skulks at his ankles, but in such a case I doubt celerity would do a damn thing for you.
Why does it need one? It wouldn't impact public games at all and by tier 3 in competitive matches are almost over and lerks are support classes.
<i>edit: Not that I think any of this is relevant, the Lerk needs drastic changes to properly scale with marine aim skill. Its fantastic in publics against noobs and terrible against the best competitive players.</i>
I already like the cute play with bringing a drifter around to give aliens more attack and movement speed, so I don't know if giving aliens another similar ability would be wise.
Enzyme Cloud Description taken from the Wiki:
"The Drifter can shoot a cloud of hormones which increase the rate of attack for all Kharaa lifeforms. Affected lifeforms will glow in a red hue."
It says nothing about movement speed.
I agree with a lot of the experienced posters on here, and spikes are deadly when you don't know where they are coming from. Kill you in seconds.
I want all Alien units to be effective at the end game, not just the Onos and perhaps the Lerk.
The fade isn't even worth playing, basically just a gimmicky skulk with a little more HP which doesn't help at all since you're slower, a much bigger target and with less attack.
I think Fade needs a 2nd tier ability worth its purchase, and scaling would buff it.
"The Drifter can shoot a cloud of hormones which increase the rate of attack for all Kharaa lifeforms. Affected lifeforms will glow in a red hue."
It says nothing about movement speed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ah, true. Checked the code in case... I don't know what made me think it also affected movement speed. Might have been in some beta version.
Idk, bite? :>
I'd just break the consistency for the sake of balance.
But attempting to rationalize the Lerk's role as being "harass/support" has never sat well with me. The only reason the Lifeform plays like this is because its been shoehorned into that role. As well, the justification for this design assumes that the concept fits the implementation, but it simply doesn't.
Aside from the Fade, you're the most mobile Lifeform on the Alien team. So does that make the Lerk a scout? And while hit and run fits the role of a mobile harass unit, your primary tool for this is a Long range, low damage attack. Why does a high mobility, flying class rely on a ability that necessitates a sniper like playstyle? It's not a machine gun, its a BB gun. As well, the only real harass you provide is against marines. Your team loses more by you sitting in one place trying to spike down a building than the marines do by just ignoring you.
How about Spores then. Its not a support ability, its an Area Denial tool. And while I like the effect of spores, it seems counter intuitive that, again, its given to the Lifeform that has low survivability, but the highest mobility. Is it effective? Absolutely, but its application is counter intuitive to the Lifeform. The effect lasts only a short time, so the only way to effectively stall a marine push using spores is to sit there and use it repeatedly, while very likely getting shot, and hope you dont run out of energy. Again, why is this an ability of the Lifeform with the highest Mobility? Scout's don't bunker down and deny, they explore / intercept.
I've always been a fan of umbra. In 1.04, it was what allowed Lerks to scale into late game. Marines have upgraded weapons and armor? Well with umbra, you can get in there and stay in melee for a longer period of time. It was a meaningful counter to the Marine Tech advancement. But it just isn't anymore. Mostly because its underpowered, and generally the last upgrade on the Alien tech tree.
So...what really makes the Lerk a harasser? Spikes and Spores. Alright, I guess that works. What makes it a support? Spores and Umbra. I guess that makes sense. But wait a minute, the marines have a hard counter two both Spores and Umbra. Its called a flamethrower. One marine with a flame thrower negates an entire team of Lerks using Spores and Umbra.
So, without those, what exactly do you have? You have a 30 pRes flying Scout with a low damage, long range harass ability that, once late game rolls around, is more annoying than it is dangerous.
All of this aside, I do still agree with SabaHell. The Lerk is in the best place its been in since the beta (which apparently hasn't ended yet). But attempting to justify its role as a "harass/support" unit when Marines can a) Hard counter everything it does and b) out class it at its own role is just silly.
Lerks are not "great" at taking out Jetpackers. They're the only Lifeform other than a well aimed Fade that can Intercept a Jetpacker, and they're the only class (except a gorge which is laughable) that has a ranged attack. But if a gorge spit as fast as the Lerk's spikes fire, then they'd be just as capable at dealing with a jetpacker (disregarding damage, just rate of fire).
But lets be perfectly honest. Marines get passive 3/3 weapons and armor, and spend 30 pRes buying a Shotgun and a Jetpack. The Lerk, at a cost of 30 pRes, is massively out classed.
I think trying to make the Lerk's abilities do more, or making the Lifeform cost less would only throw it out of the balance its found currently. But don't try and sell me that its well designed. Or that Aliens somehow need a second support unit (whose abilities 2 support abilities are completely mitigated by the Flamethrower). If you believe that's good design, you're only kidding yourself.
Excellent breakdown of the Lerk 'problem'. +1
I dont agree with the recent change to increase the lerks HP, but with the role as confused as it is currently its not as big an issue. And talking about pub lerk balance is IMO completely pointless, even the NS1 lerk was massively overpowered in most pubs simply because no one could actually hit a good lerk, and that still manages to hold true in NS2, potentially even more so if you abuse the animations of the lerk currently which can make you almost unhittable even to a good player.
As a Lerk, I don't jump straight to the front line and try to advance on to enemy territory, and I don't bother trying to kill marine structures. With the mobility and speed of the lerk, I can act as the perfect ###### block to marines. If they try to get a resource tower anywhere, I will be there. While they build, I will swoop in, bite, and swoop out. Or, if they try to advance on to our territory, it will be perfectly safe. Trying to deal with a lerk flying around biting their faces off drastically increases the time it takes for them to kill anything of ours.
To put it shortly, when I go lerk, all marine advancement halts. And whatever progress we make is protected. I cannot take positions, it just doesn't work. I can support skulks when they rush, but I'm better off scouting and delaying marines.
I find myself getting away with a lot of crazy ###### in pubs, and often think Lerk is over powered. NOT A BOAST; I get around 25-30 kills per 1-2 deaths as a lerk against a average team, and the only deaths I have I attribute to either screwing up or being too cocky - not the lerk being underpowered in any way. I think anyone could be just as effective as a lerk if you give it time and learn how to choose your engagements.
As a Lerk, I don't jump straight to the front line and try to advance on to enemy territory, and I don't bother trying to kill marine structures. With the mobility and speed of the lerk, I can act as the perfect ###### block to marines. If they try to get a resource tower anywhere, I will be there. While they build, I will swoop in, bite, and swoop out. Or, if they try to advance on to our territory, it will be perfectly safe. Trying to deal with a lerk flying around biting their faces off drastically increases the time it takes for them to kill anything of ours.
To put it shortly, when I go lerk, all marine advancement halts. And whatever progress we make is protected. I cannot take positions, it just doesn't work. I can support skulks when they rush, but I'm better off scouting and delaying marines.
I find myself getting away with a lot of crazy ###### in pubs, and often think Lerk is over powered. NOT A BOAST; I get around 25-30 kills per 1-2 deaths as a lerk against a average team, and the only deaths I have I attribute to either screwing up or being too cocky - not the lerk being underpowered in any way. I think anyone could be just as effective as a lerk if you give it time and learn how to choose your engagements.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Absolutely. Well written.