I've seen a couple people say outright that the spikes fire faster and do similar dmg...no way is that true (fire rate is definitely slower). A marine can kill a lerk sitting still nearly instantly with the lmg, the same is definitely not true of the lerk firing on a still marine who has less health.
Maybe a solution would be for the spikes to do more damage but use more energy so that you don't have to make yourself a sitting duck but your also unable to continually spam.
<!--quoteo(post=2022408:date=Nov 13 2012, 02:57 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Nov 13 2012, 02:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2022408"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Uh... You cannot hide behind it, as you could in ns1 and as you would with anything Else considered to be "cover" not to mention it merely mitigates half damage unlike any real cover (that you can be any distance behind and it's still cover) ie you will take full damage standing behind a wall of umbra if you aren't in the box and it's effect transitioned off in half a second if you leave the box?....
So how is it that you don't need to stay in the box to use it?? I maintain: effective, yet fails at being the offensive cover that it was in ns1.. It works for onos and gorges, but fails for lerks, blinking fades and leaping skulks.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I never said you could hide behind it, nor did I call it partial cover. I said it functions like a "partial cover" mechanic, in that it mitigates damage. You don't <b>need</b> to stay in it to make use of it. Its called tactical environment. You don't engage an Exo at the end of a narrow hallway because it will kill you before you get to it. Instead you wait around the corner where it can't hit you.
But the issue is damage output. If umbra mitigates damage for the duration you're in it, then you effectively increase the distance you can move before you take fatal damage by passing through the cloud.
It is <b>more</b> effective to stay <b>in</b> the cloud. But assume that you <b>must always</b> be in it for it to be useful is simply wrong.
To your response Dragon, regardless of the mechanics, marines always have the advantage at range. And if you start spiking a marine at the same time he starts shooting you, and neither of you move, I'm rather certain he'll kill you first. And if he doesn't, well, he has those passive Weapon and Armor upgrades to fall back on mid-late game. You don't. And by the way, the Lerk is a 30 Res Lifeform, while the Marine costs 0. If your 30 res didn't buy you something at least marginally better than an basic marine, I think there's something wrong.
Arguing that a 30 Res Life form is marginally better than an unupgraded marine, and concluding its fine, is laughable.
<!--quoteo(post=2022424:date=Nov 13 2012, 01:12 PM:name=RedDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RedDragon @ Nov 13 2012, 01:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2022424"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If your 30 res didn't buy you something at least marginally better than an basic marine, I think there's something wrong.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think those are the words I've been searching for all along. Thank you.
<!--quoteo(post=2022405:date=Nov 13 2012, 11:52 AM:name=ChickenOfWar)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ChickenOfWar @ Nov 13 2012, 11:52 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2022405"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I've never had a lerk trade efficiently with me with the lerk only using spikes and me only using an LMG. Granted I'm an above average player but if the skill levels are even its usually not worth it to use spikes.
The lower rate of fire could be the main issue since you have to be moving a lot to not get instantly wrecked as a lerk. But as you increase the accuracy, increase the damage, increase the RoF spikes start becoming more and more like an alien LMG. It would make a lot more sense to have the spikes even do a fraction of the damage they were doing before without needing to stay within line of sight of marines for too long a time. The synergy with bite would just be icing on the cake. Lower the rate of fire on spikes, lower the initial damage, make them almost parasite accurate and add a DoT that stacks with each connecting shot.
I don't want the spikes to do more dps overall, I just want spikes to be safer to use. I'd like them to do more damage overall if you're willing to risk getting that essential bite in and then use spikes or vice versa.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> then we agree perfectly :D again, it's the survivability.
I love the idea of increasing accuracy and ROF, simply because it lets you kite around corners and really abuse the mobility of the Lerk. synergy in abilities = fun gameplay! reading through your idea again, it does make a lot more sense now that you have written your end goal (make spikes safer to use). however, I don't see how this introduces a raised skill-cap - I think you should make a post in the I&S forums, as this is slightly off-track.
I'm not saying it would be an easy change, or that it should definitely go through ASAP, but I feel that second hive Umbra would solve a lot of problems.
1. Give the Lerk a more defined support role 2. Allow the Onos' HP to be reduced to compensate, meaning that an Onos would be somewhat dependant on a lerk with Umbra for full effectiveness, meaning less 6 min Onos. 3. The Fade's health could remain much the same as it is now, while gaining a concrete and reliable way to prevent the one hit instakill that occurs regularly now. 4. Allow skulks to be far more effective at 2 hives, even against fully teched marines.
<!--quoteo(post=2022434:date=Nov 13 2012, 02:21 PM:name=Metal Handkerchief)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Metal Handkerchief @ Nov 13 2012, 02:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2022434"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think those are the words I've been searching for all along. Thank you.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> 75 res doesn't buy you a weapon that's better than a basic skulk, so I don't see why you people expect it to.
Lerks are excellent as-is IMO, at least for pub play, I wouldn't change a thing right now. There are bigger balance changes to be made first(Fade buffs, early Onos nerf, structure/tech tweaks) and then we'll see where things are when the dust settles.
<!--quoteo(post=2022438:date=Nov 13 2012, 04:24 PM:name=Techercizer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Techercizer @ Nov 13 2012, 04:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2022438"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->75 res doesn't buy you a weapon that's better than a basic skulk, so I don't see why you people expect it to.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Hahaha... oh you were serious? Let me laugh harder
I wouldnt say the lerk is acceptable balance wise, nor do I think it is. However I will say that most people have not seen how much you can abuse the lerk since the animation changes, nor do I want to go around showing people how completely broken it can be.
And i think comparing numbers wise HP/DPS is not any kind of reflective way to analyze lerk balance, the class has more mobility than any other class arguably and role wise shouldnt be completely overpowering marines anyways.
<!--quoteo(post=2022438:date=Nov 13 2012, 03:24 PM:name=Techercizer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Techercizer @ Nov 13 2012, 03:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2022438"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->75 res doesn't buy you a weapon that's better than a basic skulk, so I don't see why you people expect it to.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Are you referring to a dual minigun Exo? Because those are significantly better than skulks. That a skulk can kill one is irrelevant. I can kill W3/A3 marines as a Lerk and do so quite frequently. Conditional engagements are not the ones you base balance on. Nor are the they engagements you base your design concepts around.
The point is that an attempt to justify the Lerk's role and "balance" purely with the argument that its basic abilities are marginally better than a starting marine is ridiculous.
As well, my entire original point was that the current state of the Lerk is better than its been in ages. And I would not personally recommend playing with its numbers least it ends up getting hit by the nerf bat again later on. The larger issue is that the Design of the Lerk is counter intuitive to the implementation of its abilities.
Its concept is confused. It doesn't know whether its a Scout, a Harasser, an Interceptor, or a Support. It tries to be all of these things but falls short in all of them. If you want the Lerk to BE anything, it needs to commit to one of those concepts. I for one prefer the idea of it being an interceptor, because out of 5 Lifeforms, the alien team doesn't need 2 of them being support units, but that's just my opinion.
Increasing the survivability of the Lerk is absolutely the wrong thing to do. As it should be, it is a high risk (and hopefully at some point) high reward unit. It should be squishy, so that you have less than a second to do 'your thing' and gtfo. That's the most fun part about it. My point is that 'your thing' as it stands is flinging wet noodles and coughing up smoke lung with little actual returns in higher level play because people will smoke you with a shotgun before you've even done nearly enough.
It should be: high risk high reward.
It is: high risk no reward. (90% of the time - the other 10% are lapses in concentration on the marine's part, so it's never actually YOUR benefit that something happens)
rhombusLerk QueenJoin Date: 2011-06-23Member: 106055Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited November 2012
<!--c1--><div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><!--ec1-->// Umbra blocks 1 out of this many bullet kUmbraBlockRate = 2 // Carries the umbra cloud for x additional seconds kUmbraRetainTime = .5
Just did some testing with the umbra cloud. You do get the effect at the very edge of the cloud, the only huge problem is that the effect indicator is just a faint glow which is hardly noticeable.
There is absolutely no feedback indicator that you are affected by umbra except for the giant cloud and the faint effects on the alien (whereas in NS1 you had audio feedback as well). The effect doesn't last nearly enough to make it worth the 25 energy per cloud (I'd rather spore the group of Marines to block their vision and kill a few than spend the energy on umbra). The other major problems with this is that a Marine just has to spend (and recycle) one Flamethrower to hard counter this ability.. a tier 3 ability.. making it completely useless if the commander decides to invest in the flamethrower.
TL;DR: Umbra has no feedback, is too short, super easily counter-able.
<!--quoteo(post=2022264:date=Nov 13 2012, 01:39 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Nov 13 2012, 01:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2022264"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As for what to make tier 3? Shotgun spikes with crazy dps or that great support idea nak had of movement speed buff.. Doesn't really matter considering how often lerk's t3 is currently utilized (but that could just be the .3 sec discouraging..)
Oh yea, and I would trade all of this for 13 speed to come back.. 11 is useless and makes celerity a requirement.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The reason why the tier 3 ability is hardly being used is because of the reason stated above. When two of your abilities is hard countered by a single weapon (you could have 20 lerks sporing at once and one Flamethrower can keep a room clear so long as he has ammo). One single weapon hard counters two abilities of a life form.. ridiculous. As far as spikes go: Dragon is right and I'll repeat him in agreement: The spores aren't ranged to keep Lerks from vent lerking and to get them to engage in combat, but you have spikes that are nearly, if not, invisible dealing damage to structures and are doing exactly what Charlie doesn't want the Lerk to be doing.
Shotgun spikes for T3 is a horrible idea unless you plan on making the Lerk a flying fortress against w3 and EXO's. Try balancing that for early game when you have a battle Lerk tearing through Marines as they tank them.
<!--quoteo(post=2022533:date=Nov 13 2012, 11:58 PM:name=SabaHell)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SabaHell @ Nov 13 2012, 11:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2022533"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There is absolutely no feedback indicator that you are affected by umbra except for the giant cloud<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=2022528:date=Nov 13 2012, 01:57 PM:name=Metal Handkerchief)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Metal Handkerchief @ Nov 13 2012, 01:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2022528"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Increasing the survivability of the Lerk is absolutely the wrong thing to do. As it should be, it is a high risk (and hopefully at some point) high reward unit. It should be squishy, so that you have less than a second to do 'your thing' and gtfo. That's the most fun part about it. My point is that 'your thing' as it stands is flinging wet noodles and coughing up smoke lung with little actual returns in higher level play because people will smoke you with a shotgun before you've even done nearly enough.
It should be: high risk high reward.
It is: high risk no reward. (90% of the time - the other 10% are lapses in concentration on the marine's part, so it's never actually YOUR benefit that something happens)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I agree with you completely, except I don't see how increasing survivability doesn't support all of your points. increasing flap force / drop force would do a lot for making fights a lot more skill-based instead of luck-based.
it definitely does need some kind of insurance to make it so that spores are actually worth the risk of flying into the middle of their team. be it an HP buff, or Umbra T2, either solution works fine with me. Umbra T2 seems to open up a lot more interesting gameplay avenues.
rhombusLerk QueenJoin Date: 2011-06-23Member: 106055Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited November 2012
<!--quoteo(post=2022546:date=Nov 13 2012, 06:15 PM:name=Princess_of_Power)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Princess_of_Power @ Nov 13 2012, 06:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2022546"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I agree with you completely, except I don't see how increasing survivability doesn't support all of your points. increasing flap force / drop force would do a lot for making fights a lot more skill-based instead of luck-based.
it definitely does need some kind of insurance to make it so that spores are actually worth the risk of flying into the middle of their team. be it an HP buff, or Umbra T2, either solution works fine with me. Umbra T2 seems to open up a lot more interesting gameplay avenues.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Flap force was reduced because people had a hard time aiming with spikes (lol).
Umbra needs to be fixed first before it's even considered to be T3, let alone T2.
@Imbalanxd: If your back is to the cloud and you're on the edge of it I'd like to know if I have the effect. How about posting something more constructive instead of displaying your worth.
<!--quoteo(post=2021744:date=Nov 13 2012, 12:12 AM:name=ChickenOfWar)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ChickenOfWar @ Nov 13 2012, 12:12 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2021744"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No lifeform should be useless before getting some upgrade, it goes against UWE's design philosophy. Any option should be just as viable as another. Newer lifeforms should also actually feel like newer life forms. One of my biggest gripes with the lerk is that once you spend that 30 pres it feels like you bought a couple of spike launchers and some wings as a skulk, rather than turning into a completely new lifeform with a new playstyle. The DoT theme would definitely be viable and unique.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why should they be useful before getting their signature ability? Why is it so horrible to remain as a skulk until your commander unlocks your effectiveness? I mean, your commander can drop Lerk eggs right off the bat, so there <i>must</i> be some limiting factor, especially since a lerk is only ten resources away from what you start with and doesn't need to be researched.
Lerks are awesome, people just need to play them less like a flying skulk since that will <i>result in your death</i>. Others have said it, but Lerk is a support unit. That doesn't mean what it does in Battlefield. 'Support' doesn't mean you get a heavy machinegun and infinite grenades. It means you lay down poison gas to limit forward advances while giving your other alien units a chance to close to melee and clean up. Your main weapon bypasses one of the most potent Marine upgrades that is complained about in <i>multiple</i> other threads, that being the stacking Armor upgrades. Used in conjunction, Lerk abilities are quite frankly some of the best in the game. If you think otherwise, it's probably through lack of experience or playing versus vastly superior players.
The limit on alien life forms is the commander, who upgrades their abilities to <i>make that life form viable</i>. Marines need to upgrade weapons, Aliens need to upgrade abilities. It's honestly just that simple, unless you feel that shotgun is a waste of resources and grenade launchers are under powered. Marines rely on 'upgrades' to the default unit, aliens rely on upgrading advanced units while still having those life forms available <i>by default.</i>
Right now the aliens lack a low-risk moderate reward combat alternative/upgrade to the Skulk (that doesn't cost all your PRes like an Onos). The NS1 Lerk fit this bill with the ability to hide in vents and gas at a distance. The NS2 Lerk kinda can do this but less effectively with Spikes.
<!--quoteo(post=2022556:date=Nov 14 2012, 12:23 AM:name=SabaHell)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SabaHell @ Nov 14 2012, 12:23 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2022556"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->@Imbalanxd: If your back is to the cloud and you're on the edge of it I'd like to know if I have the effect. How about posting something more constructive instead of displaying your worth.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If I'm in Atrium and a Lerk teamy puts down Umbra in Flight Control, I would also like to know if I have the effect. On the other hand, instead of adding multiple indicators, one could just fly into the "giant cloud" as you put it. If you want to take chances, take them, but don't ask for checks and balances to be put in place to stop your chance taking from being a risk.
If Lerk is to get any kind of buff, UWE's got to be careful with it. Lerk is already the go-to alien to stomp a pub if you're a good player, esp if you have competitive experience in games that required tracking aim.
<!--quoteo(post=2022580:date=Nov 13 2012, 02:40 PM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Nov 13 2012, 02:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2022580"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If I'm in Atrium and a Lerk teamy puts down Umbra in Flight Control, I would also like to know if I have the effect. On the other hand, instead of adding multiple indicators, one could just fly into the "giant cloud" as you put it. If you want to take chances, take them, but don't ask for checks and balances to be put in place to stop your chance taking from being a risk.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> scan has a similar effect when you're in scan range. don't see why it's not possible to add a cloudy effect on the v_ model for Umbra.
<!--quoteo(post=2022560:date=Nov 13 2012, 05:26 PM:name=SpaceJew)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpaceJew @ Nov 13 2012, 05:26 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2022560"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Why should they be useful before getting their signature ability? Why is it so horrible to remain as a skulk until your commander unlocks your effectiveness? I mean, your commander can drop Lerk eggs right off the bat, so there <i>must</i> be some limiting factor, especially since a lerk is only ten resources away from what you start with and doesn't need to be researched.
Lerks are awesome, people just need to play them less like a flying skulk since that will <i>result in your death</i>. Others have said it, but Lerk is a support unit. That doesn't mean what it does in Battlefield. 'Support' doesn't mean you get a heavy machinegun and infinite grenades. It means you lay down poison gas to limit forward advances while giving your other alien units a chance to close to melee and clean up. Your main weapon bypasses one of the most potent Marine upgrades that is complained about in <i>multiple</i> other threads, that being the stacking Armor upgrades. Used in conjunction, Lerk abilities are quite frankly some of the best in the game. If you think otherwise, it's probably through lack of experience or playing versus vastly superior players.
The limit on alien life forms is the commander, who upgrades their abilities to <i>make that life form viable</i>. Marines need to upgrade weapons, Aliens need to upgrade abilities. It's honestly just that simple, unless you feel that shotgun is a waste of resources and grenade launchers are under powered. Marines rely on 'upgrades' to the default unit, aliens rely on upgrading advanced units while still having those life forms available <i>by default.</i><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So your argument is that because you want to play it as a support unit, you shouldn't evolve that unit until its support abilities are unlocked?
So...if its a support unit that requires those support abilities...why can I evolve into that unit before those abilities are unlocked? Is UWE trolling me?
"Others have said it before." Okay, and I've said it before. It's not a support Lifeform, it <b>tries</b> to be a harass/support lifeform but falls short of fulfulling either role to the extent that its abilities are counter intuitive to its design implementation.
Your argument is that "Spores are great, therefore nothing is wrong" is silly. The Ability <b>Spores</b> is super effective, but it exists independently of the Lerk as a design concept. I could just as easily give a leaping skulk the ability to use Spores and they would be just as effective at Area Denial as a Lerk.
The Lerk isn't fine because Spores are effective. Spores are simply effective. Don't attempt to sell the concept that the Lerk fits the role its been shoehorned into simply because you feel the abilities it has are useful.
Spores are useful. Umbra is useful. Spikes are Useful. Flying is useful. But the concept of the Lerk is as confused as its abilities are varied. It has the highest mobility of any class in the game, yet its abilities are 1) melee combatant 2) ranged harass 3) area denial and 4) defense buffer. The later two of those abilities are completely mitigated by one marine with a flamethrower.
As well, the mechanic of the Spore's area denial effect is such that you always be losing ground to a marine advance. Without a nearby shift, you will never regenerate enough energy to continuously deny any sizable area for longer than a few seconds. Likewise, in order to blanket that area multiple times you must fly towards the marines and then retreat again. This is a battle of attrition you will inevitably lose.
Don't get me wrong, I like the Lerk, and I've said far too many times in this thread that I don't think anything about it needs to be changed (with the exception of the things SabaHell pointed out). But it bothers me that anyone attempts to rationalize how "well the Lerk fits the Support role."
It simply doesn't and, once again, if you think it does, then you're only kidding yourself.
<!--quoteo(post=2022580:date=Nov 13 2012, 05:40 PM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Nov 13 2012, 05:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2022580"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If I'm in Atrium and a Lerk teamy puts down Umbra in Flight Control, I would also like to know if I have the effect. On the other hand, instead of adding multiple indicators, one could just fly into the "giant cloud" as you put it. If you want to take chances, take them, but don't ask for checks and balances to be put in place to stop your chance taking from being a risk.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Feedback is good. Minimal feedback is better. When you're designing in interface, you want to convey information as subtly as possible. But hey, for the sake of feedback, we might as well satisfy every sense right? Ok, we've got sight down with the giant cloud, but that isn't enough. Lets make it cognitive with a nice little icon that tells you you are in the cloud, and lets go a bit more into the visual by adding an effect to the view model. Audio now, we need a fwooosh and wooosh to play when you are in the cloud. Now, if only we used a rumblepad in this game, we could add a controller vibrate when someone is in umbra! Yaaaaaay feedback.
(or you could just go with the visual cloud part, since that is the <b>only </b>one you cannot remove from the equation)
rhombusLerk QueenJoin Date: 2011-06-23Member: 106055Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited November 2012
<!--quoteo(post=2022612:date=Nov 13 2012, 07:04 PM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Nov 13 2012, 07:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2022612"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Feedback is good. Minimal feedback is better. When you're designing in interface, you want to convey information as subtly as possible. But hey, for the sake of feedback, we might as well satisfy every sense right? Ok, we've got sight down with the giant cloud, but that isn't enough. Lets make it cognitive with a nice little icon that tells you you are in the cloud, and lets go a bit more into the visual by adding an effect to the view model. Audio now, we need a fwooosh and wooosh to play when you are in the cloud. Now, if only we used a rumblepad in this game, we could add a controller vibrate when someone is in umbra! Yaaaaaay feedback.
(or you could just go with the visual cloud part, since that is the <b>only </b>one you cannot remove from the equation)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you've ever played NS1, then you'd know what I was talking about. Since your post hints otherwise.. I'll go ahead and ignore this one.
<!--quoteo(post=2022626:date=Nov 14 2012, 01:15 AM:name=SabaHell)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SabaHell @ Nov 14 2012, 01:15 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2022626"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you've ever played NS1, then you'd know what I was talking about. Since your post hints otherwise.. I'll go ahead and ignore this one.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ignoring the opinions of people who (you claim) didn't play NS1 eh? One step away from ignoring people who haven't played "competitively". Good to see you hold your own opinion in such high esteem.
The lerk also makes a small puff of umbra around itself (or at least in front of itself in 1st person view) when it shoots the umbra cloud, which is a bit misleading. I reckon that the small puff doesn't actually give you the effect.
There could be a small icon or something indicating that you have umbra effect.
Marines get sound feedback when they shoot umbra'd aliens. Misleadingly the effect is the same for vortexed marines (no damage at all) and shooting at blinking fades (take full damage).
<!--quoteo(post=2022599:date=Nov 13 2012, 04:51 PM:name=RedDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RedDragon @ Nov 13 2012, 04:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2022599"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So your argument is that because you want to play it as a support unit, you shouldn't evolve that unit until its support abilities are unlocked?
So...if its a support unit that requires those support abilities...why can I evolve into that unit before those abilities are unlocked? Is UWE trolling me?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So you would prefer to have Lerk with Spores by default, despite admitting that it's super effective versus late game marines. All because despite knowing better, you fully intend on evolving into a life form that will quite definitely under perform because you <i>wish</i> it wasn't a support unit that required <i>any teamwork</i> and try to use it as a harass unit (what, like skulks?) solo-style, which is obviously a missing component from a class intended for supporting several other team mates.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The Ability Spores is super effective, but it exists independently of the Lerk as a design concept. I could just as easily give a leaping skulk the ability to use Spores and they would be just as effective at Area Denial as a Lerk.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think it's possible to argue with someone like you, you simply can't take a breath and think for a second. Spores is <i>super</i> effective, he says. (Ignoring umbra, apparently, because it's also <i>super</i> effective.) You know, having two super effective abilities would make most people go <i>huh, that's a pretty cool class!</i> but you, oh ho...no sir! You go to the <i>forums</i> to talk about how utterly fail a lifeform is because it's <i>effective</i> at a role you wish was something else! A brave stance sir, I salute you.
After all, no other game has the balls to give a class three DoT abilities to stack on one target! That would <i>never work</i>, amiright? Right?
I think I'll keep playing a class as support when it has two distinct support abilities out of a whopping list of four abilities, while the two that aren't support abilities <i>stack with the support abilities DoT</i>.
<!--quoteo(post=2022865:date=Nov 13 2012, 11:40 PM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Nov 13 2012, 11:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2022865"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Ignoring the opinions of people who (you claim) didn't play NS1 eh? One step away from ignoring people who haven't played "competitively". Good to see you hold your own opinion in such high esteem.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If SabaHell is ignoring your opinion, its very likely because your response demonstrates your own ignorance of the subject at hand. Her original response was related to the issue that the Visual effect of the Umbra <b>cloud</b> was misleading players into thinking the area of the Umbra <b>effect</b> was larger than it actually was. A good way to ensure that the two match up, would be some form of feedback upon entering the <b>area of effect</b> rather than just visually entering the cloud.
Since you seem incapable of following the context of the conversation, please stay the hell out of it.
<!--quoteo(post=2022890:date=Nov 14 2012, 12:43 AM:name=SpaceJew)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpaceJew @ Nov 14 2012, 12:43 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2022890"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So you would prefer to have Lerk with Spores by default, despite admitting that it's super effective versus late game marines. All because despite knowing better, you fully intend on evolving into a life form that will quite definitely under perform because you <i>wish</i> it wasn't a support unit that required <i>any teamwork</i> and try to use it as a harass unit (what, like skulks?) solo-style, which is obviously a missing component from a class intended for supporting several other team mates.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Please go and reread each and every one of my posts, and find the place where I recommend making a change to the Lerk and quote it to me. I will readily apologize to you for apparently brusing your ego once you do that.
But you wont be able to, because I've repeatedly said, even in the post you're quoting, that I don't think the Lerk should be changed at all (perhaps with the except of SabaHell's tweaks to the umbra cloud).
Likewise, I don't believe the Lerk underperforms when I evolve into it. I've stated before that I almost exclusively play Lerks and I actually think they perform very well in the current build. What I <b>don't</b> like is when people try to justify the <b>concept</b> of the class as being 'support' merely because it has Spores and Umbra.
Here's a quick hint by the way: Thats not actually its intended role. How crazy is that?!?
<!--quoteo(post=2022890:date=Nov 14 2012, 12:43 AM:name=SpaceJew)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpaceJew @ Nov 14 2012, 12:43 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2022890"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't think it's possible to argue with someone like you, you simply can't take a breath and think for a second. Spores is <i>super</i> effective, he says. (Ignoring umbra, apparently, because it's also <i>super</i> effective.) You know, having two super effective abilities would make most people go <i>huh, that's a pretty cool class!</i> but you, oh ho...no sir! You go to the <i>forums</i> to talk about how utterly fail a lifeform is because it's <i>effective</i> at a role you wish was something else! A brave stance sir, I salute you.
After all, no other game has the balls to give a class three DoT abilities to stack on one target! That would <i>never work</i>, amiright? Right?
I think I'll keep playing a class as support when it has two distinct support abilities out of a whopping list of four abilities, while the two that aren't support abilities <i>stack with the support abilities DoT</i>.
Cute focusing on my saying "super effective" and then trying to undermine the point I made by making that seem contrary to my position. Perhaps you should go read the part about the flamethrower and then read a bit of sarcasm into those words. Or maybe you should try putting thought into your position before you start trying to find fault with mine.
I'm actually a perfectly reasonable individual to have a <b>discussion</b> with, and I prefer not to argue. If you would like to argue though, I am forced to point out that its painfully obvious that you haven't actually fully read anything I've written in this thread. Or that if you have, you've failed to comprehend it.
If you'd like to have a <b>discussion</b> though, I guess I'm still forced to ask you to go back and reread my posts before you respond to them. Because actually, despite whatever you may think, its really quite impossible to discuss anything with someone who isn't actually listening.
Comments
Maybe a solution would be for the spikes to do more damage but use more energy so that you don't have to make yourself a sitting duck but your also unable to continually spam.
So how is it that you don't need to stay in the box to use it??
I maintain: effective, yet fails at being the offensive cover that it was in ns1.. It works for onos and gorges, but fails for lerks, blinking fades and leaping skulks.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I never said you could hide behind it, nor did I call it partial cover. I said it functions like a "partial cover" mechanic, in that it mitigates damage. You don't <b>need</b> to stay in it to make use of it. Its called tactical environment. You don't engage an Exo at the end of a narrow hallway because it will kill you before you get to it. Instead you wait around the corner where it can't hit you.
But the issue is damage output. If umbra mitigates damage for the duration you're in it, then you effectively increase the distance you can move before you take fatal damage by passing through the cloud.
It is <b>more</b> effective to stay <b>in</b> the cloud. But assume that you <b>must always</b> be in it for it to be useful is simply wrong.
To your response Dragon, regardless of the mechanics, marines always have the advantage at range. And if you start spiking a marine at the same time he starts shooting you, and neither of you move, I'm rather certain he'll kill you first. And if he doesn't, well, he has those passive Weapon and Armor upgrades to fall back on mid-late game. You don't. And by the way, the Lerk is a 30 Res Lifeform, while the Marine costs 0. If your 30 res didn't buy you something at least marginally better than an basic marine, I think there's something wrong.
Arguing that a 30 Res Life form is marginally better than an unupgraded marine, and concluding its fine, is laughable.
I think those are the words I've been searching for all along. Thank you.
The lower rate of fire could be the main issue since you have to be moving a lot to not get instantly wrecked as a lerk. But as you increase the accuracy, increase the damage, increase the RoF spikes start becoming more and more like an alien LMG. It would make a lot more sense to have the spikes even do a fraction of the damage they were doing before without needing to stay within line of sight of marines for too long a time. The synergy with bite would just be icing on the cake. Lower the rate of fire on spikes, lower the initial damage, make them almost parasite accurate and add a DoT that stacks with each connecting shot.
I don't want the spikes to do more dps overall, I just want spikes to be safer to use. I'd like them to do more damage overall if you're willing to risk getting that essential bite in and then use spikes or vice versa.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
then we agree perfectly :D again, it's the survivability.
I love the idea of increasing accuracy and ROF, simply because it lets you kite around corners and really abuse the mobility of the Lerk. synergy in abilities = fun gameplay! reading through your idea again, it does make a lot more sense now that you have written your end goal (make spikes safer to use). however, I don't see how this introduces a raised skill-cap - I think you should make a post in the I&S forums, as this is slightly off-track.
1. Give the Lerk a more defined support role
2. Allow the Onos' HP to be reduced to compensate, meaning that an Onos would be somewhat dependant on a lerk with Umbra for full effectiveness, meaning less 6 min Onos.
3. The Fade's health could remain much the same as it is now, while gaining a concrete and reliable way to prevent the one hit instakill that occurs regularly now.
4. Allow skulks to be far more effective at 2 hives, even against fully teched marines.
75 res doesn't buy you a weapon that's better than a basic skulk, so I don't see why you people expect it to.
Hahaha... oh you were serious? Let me laugh harder
And i think comparing numbers wise HP/DPS is not any kind of reflective way to analyze lerk balance, the class has more mobility than any other class arguably and role wise shouldnt be completely overpowering marines anyways.
Are you referring to a dual minigun Exo? Because those are significantly better than skulks. That a skulk can kill one is irrelevant. I can kill W3/A3 marines as a Lerk and do so quite frequently. Conditional engagements are not the ones you base balance on. Nor are the they engagements you base your design concepts around.
The point is that an attempt to justify the Lerk's role and "balance" purely with the argument that its basic abilities are marginally better than a starting marine is ridiculous.
As well, my entire original point was that the current state of the Lerk is better than its been in ages. And I would not personally recommend playing with its numbers least it ends up getting hit by the nerf bat again later on. The larger issue is that the Design of the Lerk is counter intuitive to the implementation of its abilities.
Its concept is confused. It doesn't know whether its a Scout, a Harasser, an Interceptor, or a Support. It tries to be all of these things but falls short in all of them. If you want the Lerk to BE anything, it needs to commit to one of those concepts. I for one prefer the idea of it being an interceptor, because out of 5 Lifeforms, the alien team doesn't need 2 of them being support units, but that's just my opinion.
It should be: high risk high reward.
It is: high risk no reward. (90% of the time - the other 10% are lapses in concentration on the marine's part, so it's never actually YOUR benefit that something happens)
kUmbraBlockRate = 2
// Carries the umbra cloud for x additional seconds
kUmbraRetainTime = .5
kUmbraEnergyCost = 25
kUmbraDuration = 5<!--c2--></div><!--ec2-->
Just did some testing with the umbra cloud. You do get the effect at the very edge of the cloud, the only huge problem is that the effect indicator is just a faint glow which is hardly noticeable.
There is absolutely no feedback indicator that you are affected by umbra except for the giant cloud and the faint effects on the alien (whereas in NS1 you had audio feedback as well). The effect doesn't last nearly enough to make it worth the 25 energy per cloud (I'd rather spore the group of Marines to block their vision and kill a few than spend the energy on umbra). The other major problems with this is that a Marine just has to spend (and recycle) one Flamethrower to hard counter this ability.. a tier 3 ability.. making it completely useless if the commander decides to invest in the flamethrower.
TL;DR: Umbra has no feedback, is too short, super easily counter-able.
<!--quoteo(post=2022264:date=Nov 13 2012, 01:39 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Nov 13 2012, 01:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2022264"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As for what to make tier 3? Shotgun spikes with crazy dps or that great support idea nak had of movement speed buff.. Doesn't really matter considering how often lerk's t3 is currently utilized (but that could just be the .3 sec discouraging..)
Oh yea, and I would trade all of this for 13 speed to come back.. 11 is useless and makes celerity a requirement.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The reason why the tier 3 ability is hardly being used is because of the reason stated above. When two of your abilities is hard countered by a single weapon (you could have 20 lerks sporing at once and one Flamethrower can keep a room clear so long as he has ammo). One single weapon hard counters two abilities of a life form.. ridiculous. As far as spikes go: Dragon is right and I'll repeat him in agreement: The spores aren't ranged to keep Lerks from vent lerking and to get them to engage in combat, but you have spikes that are nearly, if not, invisible dealing damage to structures and are doing exactly what Charlie doesn't want the Lerk to be doing.
Shotgun spikes for T3 is a horrible idea unless you plan on making the Lerk a flying fortress against w3 and EXO's. Try balancing that for early game when you have a battle Lerk tearing through Marines as they tank them.
my_brain_is_full_of_######.jpg
It should be: high risk high reward.
It is: high risk no reward. (90% of the time - the other 10% are lapses in concentration on the marine's part, so it's never actually YOUR benefit that something happens)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree with you completely, except I don't see how increasing survivability doesn't support all of your points. increasing flap force / drop force would do a lot for making fights a lot more skill-based instead of luck-based.
it definitely does need some kind of insurance to make it so that spores are actually worth the risk of flying into the middle of their team. be it an HP buff, or Umbra T2, either solution works fine with me. Umbra T2 seems to open up a lot more interesting gameplay avenues.
it definitely does need some kind of insurance to make it so that spores are actually worth the risk of flying into the middle of their team. be it an HP buff, or Umbra T2, either solution works fine with me. Umbra T2 seems to open up a lot more interesting gameplay avenues.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Flap force was reduced because people had a hard time aiming with spikes (lol).
Umbra needs to be fixed first before it's even considered to be T3, let alone T2.
@Imbalanxd: If your back is to the cloud and you're on the edge of it I'd like to know if I have the effect. How about posting something more constructive instead of displaying your worth.
Why should they be useful before getting their signature ability? Why is it so horrible to remain as a skulk until your commander unlocks your effectiveness? I mean, your commander can drop Lerk eggs right off the bat, so there <i>must</i> be some limiting factor, especially since a lerk is only ten resources away from what you start with and doesn't need to be researched.
Lerks are awesome, people just need to play them less like a flying skulk since that will <i>result in your death</i>. Others have said it, but Lerk is a support unit. That doesn't mean what it does in Battlefield. 'Support' doesn't mean you get a heavy machinegun and infinite grenades. It means you lay down poison gas to limit forward advances while giving your other alien units a chance to close to melee and clean up. Your main weapon bypasses one of the most potent Marine upgrades that is complained about in <i>multiple</i> other threads, that being the stacking Armor upgrades. Used in conjunction, Lerk abilities are quite frankly some of the best in the game. If you think otherwise, it's probably through lack of experience or playing versus vastly superior players.
The limit on alien life forms is the commander, who upgrades their abilities to <i>make that life form viable</i>. Marines need to upgrade weapons, Aliens need to upgrade abilities. It's honestly just that simple, unless you feel that shotgun is a waste of resources and grenade launchers are under powered. Marines rely on 'upgrades' to the default unit, aliens rely on upgrading advanced units while still having those life forms available <i>by default.</i>
Right now the aliens lack a low-risk moderate reward combat alternative/upgrade to the Skulk (that doesn't cost all your PRes like an Onos). The NS1 Lerk fit this bill with the ability to hide in vents and gas at a distance. The NS2 Lerk kinda can do this but less effectively with Spikes.
Thoughts?
If I'm in Atrium and a Lerk teamy puts down Umbra in Flight Control, I would also like to know if I have the effect. On the other hand, instead of adding multiple indicators, one could just fly into the "giant cloud" as you put it. If you want to take chances, take them, but don't ask for checks and balances to be put in place to stop your chance taking from being a risk.
scan has a similar effect when you're in scan range. don't see why it's not possible to add a cloudy effect on the v_ model for Umbra.
Lerks are awesome, people just need to play them less like a flying skulk since that will <i>result in your death</i>. Others have said it, but Lerk is a support unit. That doesn't mean what it does in Battlefield. 'Support' doesn't mean you get a heavy machinegun and infinite grenades. It means you lay down poison gas to limit forward advances while giving your other alien units a chance to close to melee and clean up. Your main weapon bypasses one of the most potent Marine upgrades that is complained about in <i>multiple</i> other threads, that being the stacking Armor upgrades. Used in conjunction, Lerk abilities are quite frankly some of the best in the game. If you think otherwise, it's probably through lack of experience or playing versus vastly superior players.
The limit on alien life forms is the commander, who upgrades their abilities to <i>make that life form viable</i>. Marines need to upgrade weapons, Aliens need to upgrade abilities. It's honestly just that simple, unless you feel that shotgun is a waste of resources and grenade launchers are under powered. Marines rely on 'upgrades' to the default unit, aliens rely on upgrading advanced units while still having those life forms available <i>by default.</i><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So your argument is that because you want to play it as a support unit, you shouldn't evolve that unit until its support abilities are unlocked?
So...if its a support unit that requires those support abilities...why can I evolve into that unit before those abilities are unlocked? Is UWE trolling me?
"Others have said it before." Okay, and I've said it before. It's not a support Lifeform, it <b>tries</b> to be a harass/support lifeform but falls short of fulfulling either role to the extent that its abilities are counter intuitive to its design implementation.
Your argument is that "Spores are great, therefore nothing is wrong" is silly. The Ability <b>Spores</b> is super effective, but it exists independently of the Lerk as a design concept. I could just as easily give a leaping skulk the ability to use Spores and they would be just as effective at Area Denial as a Lerk.
The Lerk isn't fine because Spores are effective. Spores are simply effective. Don't attempt to sell the concept that the Lerk fits the role its been shoehorned into simply because you feel the abilities it has are useful.
Spores are useful. Umbra is useful. Spikes are Useful. Flying is useful. But the concept of the Lerk is as confused as its abilities are varied. It has the highest mobility of any class in the game, yet its abilities are 1) melee combatant 2) ranged harass 3) area denial and 4) defense buffer. The later two of those abilities are completely mitigated by one marine with a flamethrower.
As well, the mechanic of the Spore's area denial effect is such that you always be losing ground to a marine advance. Without a nearby shift, you will never regenerate enough energy to continuously deny any sizable area for longer than a few seconds. Likewise, in order to blanket that area multiple times you must fly towards the marines and then retreat again. This is a battle of attrition you will inevitably lose.
Don't get me wrong, I like the Lerk, and I've said far too many times in this thread that I don't think anything about it needs to be changed (with the exception of the things SabaHell pointed out). But it bothers me that anyone attempts to rationalize how "well the Lerk fits the Support role."
It simply doesn't and, once again, if you think it does, then you're only kidding yourself.
Because intuitive feedback is terrible. Right.
Feedback is good. Minimal feedback is better. When you're designing in interface, you want to convey information as subtly as possible. But hey, for the sake of feedback, we might as well satisfy every sense right? Ok, we've got sight down with the giant cloud, but that isn't enough. Lets make it cognitive with a nice little icon that tells you you are in the cloud, and lets go a bit more into the visual by adding an effect to the view model. Audio now, we need a fwooosh and wooosh to play when you are in the cloud. Now, if only we used a rumblepad in this game, we could add a controller vibrate when someone is in umbra!
Yaaaaaay feedback.
(or you could just go with the visual cloud part, since that is the <b>only </b>one you cannot remove from the equation)
Yaaaaaay feedback.
(or you could just go with the visual cloud part, since that is the <b>only </b>one you cannot remove from the equation)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you've ever played NS1, then you'd know what I was talking about. Since your post hints otherwise.. I'll go ahead and ignore this one.
Ignoring the opinions of people who (you claim) didn't play NS1 eh? One step away from ignoring people who haven't played "competitively". Good to see you hold your own opinion in such high esteem.
There could be a small icon or something indicating that you have umbra effect.
Marines get sound feedback when they shoot umbra'd aliens. Misleadingly the effect is the same for vortexed marines (no damage at all) and shooting at blinking fades (take full damage).
So...if its a support unit that requires those support abilities...why can I evolve into that unit before those abilities are unlocked? Is UWE trolling me?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So you would prefer to have Lerk with Spores by default, despite admitting that it's super effective versus late game marines. All because despite knowing better, you fully intend on evolving into a life form that will quite definitely under perform because you <i>wish</i> it wasn't a support unit that required <i>any teamwork</i> and try to use it as a harass unit (what, like skulks?) solo-style, which is obviously a missing component from a class intended for supporting several other team mates.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The Ability Spores is super effective, but it exists independently of the Lerk as a design concept. I could just as easily give a leaping skulk the ability to use Spores and they would be just as effective at Area Denial as a Lerk.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think it's possible to argue with someone like you, you simply can't take a breath and think for a second. Spores is <i>super</i> effective, he says. (Ignoring umbra, apparently, because it's also <i>super</i> effective.) You know, having two super effective abilities would make most people go <i>huh, that's a pretty cool class!</i> but you, oh ho...no sir! You go to the <i>forums</i> to talk about how utterly fail a lifeform is because it's <i>effective</i> at a role you wish was something else! A brave stance sir, I salute you.
After all, no other game has the balls to give a class three DoT abilities to stack on one target! That would <i>never work</i>, amiright? Right?
I think I'll keep playing a class as support when it has two distinct support abilities out of a whopping list of four abilities, while the two that aren't support abilities <i>stack with the support abilities DoT</i>.
Bite, Bite, Gas, Flap, Flap, Shoot, Dead.
If SabaHell is ignoring your opinion, its very likely because your response demonstrates your own ignorance of the subject at hand. Her original response was related to the issue that the Visual effect of the Umbra <b>cloud</b> was misleading players into thinking the area of the Umbra <b>effect</b> was larger than it actually was. A good way to ensure that the two match up, would be some form of feedback upon entering the <b>area of effect</b> rather than just visually entering the cloud.
Since you seem incapable of following the context of the conversation, please stay the hell out of it.
<!--quoteo(post=2022890:date=Nov 14 2012, 12:43 AM:name=SpaceJew)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpaceJew @ Nov 14 2012, 12:43 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2022890"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So you would prefer to have Lerk with Spores by default, despite admitting that it's super effective versus late game marines. All because despite knowing better, you fully intend on evolving into a life form that will quite definitely under perform because you <i>wish</i> it wasn't a support unit that required <i>any teamwork</i> and try to use it as a harass unit (what, like skulks?) solo-style, which is obviously a missing component from a class intended for supporting several other team mates.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Please go and reread each and every one of my posts, and find the place where I recommend making a change to the Lerk and quote it to me. I will readily apologize to you for apparently brusing your ego once you do that.
But you wont be able to, because I've repeatedly said, even in the post you're quoting, that I don't think the Lerk should be changed at all (perhaps with the except of SabaHell's tweaks to the umbra cloud).
Likewise, I don't believe the Lerk underperforms when I evolve into it. I've stated before that I almost exclusively play Lerks and I actually think they perform very well in the current build. What I <b>don't</b> like is when people try to justify the <b>concept</b> of the class as being 'support' merely because it has Spores and Umbra.
Here's a quick hint by the way: Thats not actually its intended role. How crazy is that?!?
<!--quoteo(post=2022890:date=Nov 14 2012, 12:43 AM:name=SpaceJew)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpaceJew @ Nov 14 2012, 12:43 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2022890"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't think it's possible to argue with someone like you, you simply can't take a breath and think for a second. Spores is <i>super</i> effective, he says. (Ignoring umbra, apparently, because it's also <i>super</i> effective.) You know, having two super effective abilities would make most people go <i>huh, that's a pretty cool class!</i> but you, oh ho...no sir! You go to the <i>forums</i> to talk about how utterly fail a lifeform is because it's <i>effective</i> at a role you wish was something else! A brave stance sir, I salute you.
After all, no other game has the balls to give a class three DoT abilities to stack on one target! That would <i>never work</i>, amiright? Right?
I think I'll keep playing a class as support when it has two distinct support abilities out of a whopping list of four abilities, while the two that aren't support abilities <i>stack with the support abilities DoT</i>.
Bite, Bite, Gas, Flap, Flap, Shoot, Dead.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Cute focusing on my saying "super effective" and then trying to undermine the point I made by making that seem contrary to my position. Perhaps you should go read the part about the flamethrower and then read a bit of sarcasm into those words. Or maybe you should try putting thought into your position before you start trying to find fault with mine.
I'm actually a perfectly reasonable individual to have a <b>discussion</b> with, and I prefer not to argue. If you would like to argue though, I am forced to point out that its painfully obvious that you haven't actually fully read anything I've written in this thread. Or that if you have, you've failed to comprehend it.
If you'd like to have a <b>discussion</b> though, I guess I'm still forced to ask you to go back and reread my posts before you respond to them. Because actually, despite whatever you may think, its really quite impossible to discuss anything with someone who isn't actually listening.