Shifts have a GLOBAL cooldown now?
CrushaK
Join Date: 2012-11-05 Member: 167195Members, NS2 Playtester
Join Date: 2012-11-05 Member: 167195Members, NS2 Playtester
<div class="IPBDescription">[Wasn't the nerf enough already?!]</div>Let me guess: because some Alien Commander used the tactic of Shift-rushing a Marine base, we now have to wait on *every* Shift for the cooldown of the other Shift to finish before we can use those as well.
The micromanagement that Shifts require now is already annoying enough as it is (if you want to get enough eggs set up for not having to bother again in a few seconds, you basically have to spend 15-20 seconds just waiting for the cooldown timer of the Shift - can we get at least queue multiple eggs then and every time the cooldown finished, it will activate the Shift again for egg spawning as long as you still have build orders in the queue and enough res?), but this makes it even less intuitive to use.
If you are so concerned about the "tactic" mentioned above, why not simply make the cooldown apply to all Shifts in a certain radius around the Shift that you used last?
That way we don't have to wait if we just want to drop eggs in multiple locations on the map that are far away from each other to keep pressure on several points on the map up at the same time. With the current cooldown the alien might spawn somewhere else already before you are able to drop eggs again.
The micromanagement that Shifts require now is already annoying enough as it is (if you want to get enough eggs set up for not having to bother again in a few seconds, you basically have to spend 15-20 seconds just waiting for the cooldown timer of the Shift - can we get at least queue multiple eggs then and every time the cooldown finished, it will activate the Shift again for egg spawning as long as you still have build orders in the queue and enough res?), but this makes it even less intuitive to use.
If you are so concerned about the "tactic" mentioned above, why not simply make the cooldown apply to all Shifts in a certain radius around the Shift that you used last?
That way we don't have to wait if we just want to drop eggs in multiple locations on the map that are far away from each other to keep pressure on several points on the map up at the same time. With the current cooldown the alien might spawn somewhere else already before you are able to drop eggs again.
Comments
You can still spawn 24 eggs/minute. What is your team doing if you're losing that many skulks constantly?
I think the purpose of this change is to get away from "OMG EMERGENCY EGGS EVERYWHERE" and change it to "Oh, we're losing a lot skulks and might run out of eggs.... better start stockpiling." I think the cost increase is too much, but I like that you can't instadrop 10 eggs around a shift. Teams should be punished for lacking foresight.
You can still spawn 24 eggs/minute. What is your team doing if you're losing that many skulks constantly?
I think the purpose of this change is to get away from "OMG EMERGENCY EGGS EVERYWHERE" and change it to "Oh, we're losing a lot skulks and might run out of eggs.... better start stockpiling." I think the cost increase is too much, but I like that you can't instadrop 10 eggs around a shift. Teams should be punished for lacking foresight.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Its the massive cost increase combined with the timer, and yes it's a problem on larger servers. It has essentially raised the cost of skulks while making forward shift eggs an absurd t.res sink that don't spawn fast enough to be useful. It was already uncertain if units would even spawn at a shift instead of at a hive; now its uncertain, slow, and expensive. All just to spawn into the game. Definately not worth it anymore. Not even close. (Sadly, on larger servers you will routinely be egg locked waiting on a hive.)
UWE had one thing they deemed too powerful (mass, cheap, fast eggs from shift) and then nerfed two aspects of it (cheap and fast). I think 5 tres for 2 eggs is too much, but have no problem with only 2 eggs/5s. I think the cost should be lowered back to 2tres for 2 eggs and the speed should be left as it is. That's be 2 tres spawns 2 eggs and has a 5s cooldown.
I would actually prefer the cooldown to be removed and the cost lowered to around 4 t.res for two eggs. Without being able to make people spawn at a shift, your only option is to have more forward eggs to make it more likely that someone spawns there. That was the reason for the spam, <b>and if they really want to change something to reducethe egg spam make Nutrient Mist force players to spawn in misted eggs first.</b> That level of control would offset the current nerfs IMO.
Thats important, so I'll repeat it. Without egg 'spam' there is no guarantee that people will even spawn at the shift. This is a huge nerf to what was already a stupid mechanic. At least with spam we had the illusion of effectiveness, but now its just random with no guarantee players will spawn somewhere useful.
What I see happening with shifts (or saw, rather in pre-230) is shifts being used retroactively to spawn aliens into areas/hives already under attack, or to quickly spawn the entire team into a position the commander chooses to constantly rush and attack portions of the map together. A big zerg machine.
IMO this is.. well not optimal for the strategy part of the game. My biggest problem with the shift was the sheer volume you could spawn at one time. Hive under attack? oh ######, better spawn 15 eggs real quick! This type of play seems too forgiving to the alien strategy/commander. If the egg spawn had a longer cooldown per egg (i.e. my suggested 5s per egg, I even think 5s per 2 eggs is too fast), you reward commander micro and foresight, making the shift something you need to plan ahead with to use effectively rather than just a massive on-demand spam machine/ alien version of a distress beacon.
Alternatively, somebody proposes giving the hive the ability to spawn eggs for 1 t.res and giving shifts the ability to teleport in those eggs (for another 1 t.res) That would be a great solution.
Removing spam made the more expensive eggs less likely to spawn an alien, which is a huge deal and is the main reason why shift hatch is now useless or at least a bad investment.
How about this:
So we kind of accept that the shift is NOT meant to suddenly pop 20 eggs up right next to some marines, and is rather meant to supplement the egg growth rate to ensure continuous spawning. So lets use the gradual and continuous nature of egg spawning, combined with wanting to reduce the speed of burst spawning, and come up with a compromise. Using that, we can make an ability where people pay for what they want from egg spawning, and not for what they don't want.
<b>Hatch</b>: Pay 5 team resources to spawn 1 egg every 4 seconds for the next 20 seconds in an area around this shift.
That equated to 5 resources for 5 eggs (because we don't want to make players pay for simply needing more eggs) and it has a 60% slower spawn rate (because we want players to have foresight, not generate eggs instantly) and it removes the need for the commander to constantly watch the timer.
(or should I have said: Having something to do as the Alien Commander?)
(or should I have said: Having something to do as the Alien Commander?)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There's a big difference between micro and busy-work. Micro done wrong is busy-work.
(or should I have said: Having something to do as the Alien Commander?)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
hey repairing cyst chains is hard okay >.>
Perhaps so, I would still prefer a more strategic route like having Nutrient Mist force spawn egg locations but if that is true (I know it is for under attack hives) then its at least slightly better. I think phase gates need a five secomd timer too now as a balance... ^_-
I think you might be talking about another issue entirely, Alien mobility. But the mythical "gorge tunnels" (alien phasegates) are something UWE is concepting to help with that issue I think.
It's expensive, but still works good
Shift has always been an amazingly powerful structure
Maybe 3 eggs on a 10s cooldown for 5 res?
The microing on it is very annoying if you don't use control groups
It's expensive, but still works good
Shift has always been an amazingly powerful structure
Maybe 3 eggs on a 10s cooldown for 5 res?
The microing on it is very annoying if you don't use control groups<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's expensive, but doesn't work well. That's the current problem.
Shift <i>was</i> an amazingly powerful structure, I won't deny that. Now it's unsustainable on larger servers. It could very well be balanced on a smaller server, but with 18 or more it's absurd. I can only assume the developers want egg lock to happen more frequently as a balance to...something. What it's balanced around is something of a mystery to me, as skulks aren't terribly OP by any ones reckoning even if they spawn closer to the Marines. Alien spawn is still longer, they still need to gestate again for upgrades; all a forward egg shift does is lower the distance they need to travel to get to the Marines after spending 15 seconds spawning and upgrading. It lowers the ability of an Alien commander to consciously apply more pressure to certain locations, giving the Marines more time to secure whatever location is in question. It also makes it much harder to keep up with the Marines on maps that only have four tech points, which is actually a much larger issue I feel.
It also drastically increases the cost of skulks by increasing the cost of the egg's they hatch from. Arguably this is only true if you have a shift, but again on a larger server you <i>will</i> spend an inordinate amount of time on what amounts to busywork. Cysts and egg's are not 'fun' things to micromanage, simply necessary things to micromanage. With the cyst chains already being an Achilles Heel of any Aliens location, why introduce two more limiting factors outside of the one's already in existence?
In response to Gorge tunnels helping out, yes they would. They would help <i>a lot</i> to fix this issue. However, I can't comment on something that does not, in fact, exist yet. I also think alien Resource towers should be the center of a Cyst chain like a hive to try and mitigate the massive cyst chain vulnerability, but there are too many variables to change something like that now; if ever.
Pretty much hit the nail on the head with that one Zek. It's probably at a good enough place for 6 v 6 or 8 v 8, but anything higher than that requires an absurd amount of map control just to keep your units spawning in a timely fashion. Good alien teams will find it less of a problem, but early game is by far the most painful with the new shift changes. You can't afford eggs, but the hive doesn't spawn them fast enough. So you buy eggs, but then can't afford upgrades or a second hive. Obviously it doesn't go this way every time, and if it's a bad team that dies a lot arguably they'll lose anyway. But not even letting them spawn locks your team out of the game.
Right now, if your team dies a lot, you are bankrupting your Commander. Having an aggressive team shouldn't bankrupt the commander, although maybe this is intended to be a balance for madpack spam. However, I would argue that medpack spam is <i>far more effective</i> than just giving the other team a basic respawn after they've already been killed.
Basically, the Marines have too easy of a time locking the Aliens out of the game while the aliens have zero ways to affordably keep your players spawning. I mean, if Devour was broken because it locked a Marine out of the spawn system for a few seconds why is it ok for the entire aliens team to suffer essentially the same fate?
Also, can we take away the Exo's ability to egg-stomp now that egg's are made of solid f'ing gold? That, or make Egg's free or 1 T.Res to manually spawn from a hive?
Yeah, this is so stupidly broken! Next thing you know, people will be asking the for the marines to have a button that just lets them all teleport to a base that's under attack! Like LOL base under attack better call them home! Aliens should get punished for lack of foresight just like marines!!
How about this:
So we kind of accept that the shift is NOT meant to suddenly pop 20 eggs up right next to some marines, and is rather meant to supplement the egg growth rate to ensure continuous spawning. So lets use the gradual and continuous nature of egg spawning, combined with wanting to reduce the speed of burst spawning, and come up with a compromise. Using that, we can make an ability where people pay for what they want from egg spawning, and not for what they don't want.
<b>Hatch</b>: Pay 5 team resources to spawn 1 egg every 4 seconds for the next 20 seconds in an area around this shift.
That equated to 5 resources for 5 eggs (because we don't want to make players pay for simply needing more eggs) and it has a 60% slower spawn rate (because we want players to have foresight, not generate eggs instantly) and it removes the need for the commander to constantly watch the timer.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think that's a fine idea. The notion that the current system is hard or tedious for commanders is laughable, though.
The point your missing tho, is that it *required* a massive nerf. This shift rushing strategy completely trumped whatever skill might be involved. If a marine team is able to kill that many skulks that quickly, they DESERVE to win handily. With shift rushing marines could annihilate multiple skulk rushes and it still wouldn't matter because they would just continually get hammered until they just eventually go down due to reloading or through attrition alone. And in the process of this it kept marine teams so concentrated on one area of the map that the alien comm would have free run of everything else. I honestly had more problems with the shift as it was prior to this patch then the 2 hive/early onos quite frankly, because it was such a cheap tactic in terms of cost and could just keep persisting throughout the match.