I think the change was perfect. It reverted the shift to being what it was originally intended for: a means of adding quicker spawning for aliens much like additional ip's for marines (plus its energy regen), but NOT a means of spawning your entire team wherever you wanted on the map at any given time, completing negating whatever victories the marines had just won by better play.
<!--quoteo(post=2030640:date=Nov 20 2012, 05:53 PM:name=Mavick)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mavick @ Nov 20 2012, 05:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2030640"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The point your missing tho, is that it *required* a massive nerf. This shift rushing strategy completely trumped whatever skill might be involved.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think it required a <i>massive</i> nerf at all, considering that Marines often times never bothered on pushing forward to the shift and killing it they quite fairly deserved to be constantly rushed. If anything, either one of the implemented changes would have done a good enough job by themselves. Both has effectively killed off forward shifts being viable. It takes an Alien roughly 12 - 15 seconds to spawn and be effective. Kill off a wave, and you have more than enough time to get in and kill the shift if it's really that close. Especially with a shotgun or grenade launcher. The panic that overtakes the Aliens team when Marines have a phase gate near a hive, should be somewhat mirrored if there is a nearby shift IMO. To be fair, perhaps the Shift and Crag should have a more audible sound effect to notify the Marines that there is, in fact, a shift or crag nearby. This would also make Shades <i>slightly</i> more useful.
(Oh, wait, I mentioned a difference! I guess someone will break out the trusty ol' "defeats any argument of logic" asymmetry dodge!)
Point is it's not really bothersome for the Marines team to have a shift right outside of their base any more, or it does worry them but costs the alien's a ton of T.Res to try to maintain an easily lost structure. It is different, but it's supposed to achieve roughly the same result. Shifts can only fill that role at a massive expenditure that will now be better served in just dropping another fade or lerk. Again, rendering Alien structures non-viable in the mid game. (Which is my point, at the end of the day.)
Before the change, I do agree just because of the sheer amount of egg's you could spawn in a short time-frame. But this nerf has blown apart the usefulness of a shift as anything other than a forward infinite energy station for Gorge Bile Bomb deluge. See? Still useful, but now both the shifts functions are so expensive that they're only something you can effectively use at end-game. Structure teleport? Stupid expensive. Egg spawn? Stupid expensive.
I think Aliens are, at the end of the day, being punished for the inability of the Marine commander to know how to use an ARC turret properly or research flamethrowers at an opportune time.
I like the idea for shifts spawning egg's over-time at a somewhat cheaper cost than what we have now. That seems like an absolutely ideal situation.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think the change was perfect. It reverted the shift to being what it was originally intended for: a means of adding quicker spawning for aliens much like additional ip's for marines (plus its energy regen), but NOT a means of spawning your entire team wherever you wanted on the map at any given time, completing negating whatever victories the marines had just won by better play.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Also, Marine IP's eventually pay themselves off whereas a Shift is a constant T.Res sink just to <i>spawn players</i>. Think about that for a second before replying on the 'balance' of these changes. Might be fine for less players, since you'll need less eggs. The more players, and the more alien deaths, the more broken it becomes. Also, you can't spawn all your players anywhere you want. Only the dead ones. You're thinking of the Marines phase gate and emergency beacon functions, which are actually something the other team gets which lets him manipulate the location of useful troops, not dead ones.
schkorpioI can mspaintJoin Date: 2003-05-23Member: 16635Members
<!--quoteo(post=2030444:date=Nov 21 2012, 08:02 AM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Nov 21 2012, 08:02 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2030444"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Is this really a problem?
You can still spawn 24 eggs/minute. What is your team doing if you're losing that many skulks constantly?
I think the purpose of this change is to get away from "OMG EMERGENCY EGGS EVERYWHERE" and change it to "Oh, we're losing a lot skulks and might run out of eggs.... better start stockpiling." I think the cost increase is too much, but I like that you can't instadrop 10 eggs around a shift. Teams should be punished for lacking foresight.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
sustained xenocide attack requires a lot of eggs :)
i think a better solution would be to make it that each additional egg costs more res
so if you have 0 eggs in any hives, then you build an egg its free. if you have 1 egg, the egg you build costs 1 res 2 eggs, the 3rd egg costs you 2 res,
<!--quoteo(post=2030678:date=Nov 20 2012, 06:26 PM:name=SpaceJew)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpaceJew @ Nov 20 2012, 06:26 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2030678"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't think it required a <i>massive</i> nerf at all, considering that Marines often times never bothered on pushing forward to the shift and killing it they quite fairly deserved to be constantly rushed. If anything, either one of the implemented changes would have done a good enough job by themselves. Both has effectively killed off forward shifts being viable. It takes an Alien roughly 12 - 15 seconds to spawn and be effective. Kill off a wave, and you have more than enough time to get in and kill the shift if it's really that close. Especially with a shotgun or grenade launcher. The panic that overtakes the Aliens team when Marines have a phase gate near a hive, should be somewhat mirrored if there is a nearby shift IMO. To be fair, perhaps the Shift and Crag should have a more audible sound effect to notify the Marines that there is, in fact, a shift or crag nearby. This would also make Shades <i>slightly</i> more useful.
(Oh, wait, I mentioned a difference! I guess someone will break out the trusty ol' "defeats any argument of logic" asymmetry dodge!)
Point is it's not really bothersome for the Marines team to have a shift right outside of their base any more, or it does worry them but costs the alien's a ton of T.Res to try to maintain an easily lost structure. It is different, but it's supposed to achieve roughly the same result. Shifts can only fill that role at a massive expenditure that will now be better served in just dropping another fade or lerk. Again, rendering Alien structures non-viable in the mid game. (Which is my point, at the end of the day.)
Before the change, I do agree just because of the sheer amount of egg's you could spawn in a short time-frame. But this nerf has blown apart the usefulness of a shift as anything other than a forward infinite energy station for Gorge Bile Bomb deluge. See? Still useful, but now both the shifts functions are so expensive that they're only something you can effectively use at end-game. Structure teleport? Stupid expensive. Egg spawn? Stupid expensive.
I think Aliens are, at the end of the day, being punished for the inability of the Marine commander to know how to use an ARC turret properly or research flamethrowers at an opportune time.
I like the idea for shifts spawning egg's over-time at a somewhat cheaper cost than what we have now. That seems like an absolutely ideal situation.
Also, Marine IP's eventually pay themselves off whereas a Shift is a constant T.Res sink just to <i>spawn players</i>. Think about that for a second before replying on the 'balance' of these changes. Might be fine for less players, since you'll need less eggs. The more players, and the more alien deaths, the more broken it becomes. Also, you can't spawn all your players anywhere you want. Only the dead ones. You're thinking of the Marines phase gate and emergency beacon functions, which are actually something the other team gets which lets him manipulate the location of useful troops, not dead ones.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think shifts were ever *intended* to be forward spawning bases to start with, hence the change. You seem to forget shifts server another purpose as well, best used in conjunction with a gorge nearby for energy purposes. They're also one of the cheapest structures to build. And I happen to run a 24 man server, so I know its impact on larger servers. The impact prior to the patch was devastating to marines if placed near a base, with ammo reloads it was simply impossible to push into a defended shift location (read: one with a gorge also there to heal, possibly even crags as well). I know, I tried this several times with decent marine teams and we effectively spent much too much time on one area which just cripples a team in terms of map control. I'm also speaking in terms of early game, when flamethrowers take time to research whereas a shift can be put up much before then. If you can control early game as effectively as could be done with aggressive shift placements it just handicaps the marine team in the long run. And again, as I said, if a marine team is able to repeatedly kill the entire zerging alien team time after time, that alien team deserves to sit in a respawn queue and rethink their strategy, just like a marine team would have to do with a typical 2 IP setup. Being able to constantly zerg a team and win through attrition is not a terribly brilliant way to win a game.
It just seems to me the dev's wanted shifts to be meant more for putting in areas like a hive being built, with the ability to spawn a few eggs there in case and enable a gorge to help build the hive quickly. Not placed outside a marine base or another key point away from the hive(s) to keep marines occupied while the alien commander had free roam to expand wherever he wants, since he can do that with nobody present, whereas a marine commander cannot unless he's got MAC's roaming around.
<!--quoteo(post=2030738:date=Nov 20 2012, 07:28 PM:name=Mavick)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mavick @ Nov 20 2012, 07:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2030738"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't think shifts were ever *intended* to be forward spawning bases to start with, hence the change.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They still can be, if you simply <i>hate</i> the idea of T.Res in the bank. Ergo you are wrong here since you can still use it in the same way. You just can't do it at the start of a match without breaking the bank and putting you in an easy resource lock situation. This is a problem on high volume servers because it's puts you seriously behind on everything else, like your second hive that you desperately need to even be competitive in the late-early game to the early-mid game. Obviously you don't <i>need</i> to go Shift first any more but it was handy on high volume servers to not have a chance at egg lock early on since you tend to lose a lot of skulks unless your team is pretty effective. (Which they usually aren't on high volume servers.)
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You seem to forget shifts server another purpose as well, best used in conjunction with a gorge nearby for energy purposes.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And you seem to have forgotten to read my actual post. Whoops! (I did actually specifically mention that very thing.)
I honestly read your whole post, and wrote an in-depth line-by-line post. Then I decided that past this point it wasn't worth the TL;DR. You obviously didn't give me the same benefit I gave you on this one.
<!--quoteo(post=2030782:date=Nov 20 2012, 08:05 PM:name=SpaceJew)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpaceJew @ Nov 20 2012, 08:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2030782"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->They still can be, if you simply <i>hate</i> the idea of T.Res in the bank. Ergo you are wrong here since you can still use it in the same way. You just can't do it at the start of a match without breaking the bank and putting you in an easy resource lock situation. This is a problem on high volume servers because it's puts you seriously behind on everything else, like your second hive that you desperately need to even be competitive in the late-early game to the early-mid game. Obviously you don't <i>need</i> to go Shift first any more but it was handy on high volume servers to not have a chance at egg lock early on since you tend to lose a lot of skulks unless your team is pretty effective. (Which they usually aren't on high volume servers.)
And you seem to have forgotten to read my actual post. Whoops! (I did actually specifically mention that very thing.)
I honestly read your whole post, and wrote an in-depth line-by-line post. Then I decided that past this point it wasn't worth the TL;DR. You obviously didn't give me the same benefit I gave you on this one.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
When you realize that aliens should be penalized for dying so fast that they can't keep up with the respawn, then I'll give you that benefit. And not being able to use it that way early game without such a high risk is exactly my point in why both nerfs were needed.
I don't see it as an OP strategy. I've never had it done against me, but I imagine it is easily counterable. And is huuugely risky. The marines could just camp the eggs while one person locks down the entire map. Can't only 3 aliens spawn at once? And they're forced to spawn at the shift location so marines can just wait there with a full clip and shoot down each spawn wave.
<!--quoteo(post=2030815:date=Nov 20 2012, 08:28 PM:name=Mavick)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mavick @ Nov 20 2012, 08:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2030815"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->When you realize that aliens should be penalized for dying so fast that they can't keep up with the respawn, then I'll give you that benefit. And not being able to use it that way early game without such a high risk is exactly my point in why both nerfs were needed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Err, you still haven't actually answered as to why you believe only the aliens should be heavily penalized for spawning. I mean, a shift is really more of a phase gate than an IP, although it has some characteristics of both. 'Keeping up with the respawn' doesn't really even make sense, other than I could build 1 T.Res structures faster than they could be spawned into. There are still the same number of skulks spawning out of them as before, it just costs so much that it's better to just be egg locked for a few seconds after every spawn wave. (Thus delaying the entire teams respawn if several aliens die in a push.) The Shift was always killable, right out there in the open though. But ok, I now recognize that Marines should have no downsides ever and be made of golden win sauce. Better?
I don't see it as an OP strategy. I've never had it done against me, but I imagine it is easily counterable. And is huuugely risky. The marines could just camp the eggs while one person locks down the entire map. Can't only 3 aliens spawn at once? And they're forced to spawn at the shift location so marines can just wait there with a full clip and shoot down each spawn wave.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It wasn't really an OP strategy before to Marines that had their thinking cap on and shot the shift first, then camped the egg's. It slowed down the Marines inevitable march to winning, it would seem, so it needed to go. Either the stupid high cost needs to go, or the cooldown. Both are very painful.
Sorry about the sarcasm and hyperbole, it isn't the end of the world or anything, but shift was one of the few structures that was actually useful to strategize with as Alien commander. It can still be used that way, but it's going to be a lot tougher to hold forward locations now. I don't <i>mind</i> spending T.Res, but when I need to spend that much time and T.Res on a structure just to spawn players somewhere useful it really sucks. I would rather it be automated for the shift to build eggs in some way, even if it's way worse in every way than it is now, than baby-sit Egg's as Alien commander.
Agree with zek, the cooldown isn't so good design.
If the aliens want to spam 20 eggs to hold an area, let them waste 20 * egg trescost. This doesn't work in the favour of aliens foresight or not. Shift eggs should be balanced very simply around a tres cost instead of some mixture of tres + cd.
What's really broken is spawn waves and i hope we don't lose sight of that.
<!--quoteo(post=2030815:date=Nov 21 2012, 12:28 PM:name=Mavick)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mavick @ Nov 21 2012, 12:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2030815"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->When you realize that aliens should be penalized for dying so fast that they can't keep up with the respawn, then I'll give you that benefit. And not being able to use it that way early game without such a high risk is exactly my point in why both nerfs were needed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> And when you realise they already are both thorugh no res when dead and longer spawn times, egg locks etc. for a few res marines can easily build 3 IP's which deals with any mass deaths without penalty at all (recycling guns eliminates further costs)...but I guess the whole "there must be a penalty for dieing lots" only applies to one side right?
You say shifts allow too many aliens to suddenly appear..sounds a bit like a phase gate issue near a hive....oh wait only 1 side can move quickly right?
How are marines not penalized if most of their teams die? I very rarely ever see 3 IP's in play, and if you've got 2 IP's trying to handle 10 or more people how is that not waiting just like aliens? I never said aliens should and marines shouldn't. Marines already are if their team is wiped out. Aliens were able to circumvent it by spawning their entire team at any shift location in one single wave. It basically took away any penalty for dying for aliens since in a few seconds they'd be right back in the battle almost immediately. And again, looking at the early game aspect being able to spawn aliens in mass wherever you wanted vs marines (pre-phasegate) having to run back in *after* waiting in line to respawn, etc. If you don't see how stupidly imbalanced that is there's really nothing I can do for you.
And if you haven't seen the tactic, please don't comment. It certainly was never as easy as "camping the eggs", since they could spam the things everywhere and then all of a sudden you're dealing with their entire team in your face.
<!--quoteo(post=2030847:date=Nov 20 2012, 09:09 PM:name=hakenspit)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hakenspit @ Nov 20 2012, 09:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2030847"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And when you realise they already are both thorugh no res when dead and longer spawn times, egg locks etc. for a few res marines can easily build 3 IP's which deals with any mass deaths without penalty at all (recycling guns eliminates further costs)...but I guess the whole "there must be a penalty for dieing lots" only applies to one side right?
You say shifts allow too many aliens to suddenly appear..sounds a bit like a phase gate issue near a hive....oh wait only 1 side can move quickly right?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As I said before, I'm talking mainly from an early game perspective, as Shift Hive was usually the first hive up (in bigger servers it was almost a necessity for first hive), and early shift rushes were what was devastating since the marines had no tech yet to deal with it and it prevented them from expanding otherwise because of the manpower it took to deal with the tactic. Phasegates have their own balancing factors and I'm not going to get into that, but they've been around since the first game and I don't see how it equates in this conversation since it's a midgame strategy.
<!--quoteo(post=2030857:date=Nov 20 2012, 09:21 PM:name=Mavick)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mavick @ Nov 20 2012, 09:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2030857"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As I said before, I'm talking mainly from an early game perspective, as Shift Hive was usually the first hive up (in bigger servers it was almost a necessity for first hive), and early shift rushes were what was devastating since the marines had no tech yet to deal with it and it prevented them from expanding otherwise because of the manpower it took to deal with the tactic. Phasegates have their own balancing factors and I'm not going to get into that, but they've been around since the first game and I don't see how it equates in this conversation since it's a midgame strategy.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You should really read the rest of the thread if you don't understand what we're talking about, since we've said it already. Early shift 'rushes' could easily cost you the game, even before, through wasting all your T.Res. It's not worth a possible res lock at any point in the game to spend T.Res on egg's with the current changes. Hives don't scale egg spawns. That's the issue. I don't know what other thread you're reading, but it must not be this one.
I will agree that it's very strange that even with the arguably massive recent nerf's Aliens are still on top with win-rate. I definitely will give you that much. The distribution on time with those wins is pretty darn good across the board too. It's making me wonder if maybe the Marines are the one's that need the adjusting.
MouseThe Lighter Side of PessimismJoin Date: 2002-03-02Member: 263Members, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
Others have mentioned it, but personally, I have no massive problem with the introduction of a cool down. But I don't understand why it was made a global cool down and not a per-shift cool down.
<!--quoteo(post=2030867:date=Nov 20 2012, 09:40 PM:name=Mouse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mouse @ Nov 20 2012, 09:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2030867"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Others have mentioned it, but personally, I have no massive problem with the introduction of a cool down. But I don't understand why it was made a global cool down and not a per-shift cool down.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I guess it's to prevent spamming with two or three shifts to get around the cool down. With a cost like that, though, well you should drop maybe a fade or something instead lol
To be honest I didn't even know it was a global cooldown. One shift was expensive enough that two seemed like madness.
It's not the cooldown per say, it's both the hits at once that hurts.
I still think if they lowered the accuracy of the LMG just a hair it would go a long way to evening out the early game for newer players without being overly punishing on upper end players.
<!--quoteo(post=2030857:date=Nov 21 2012, 01:21 PM:name=Mavick)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mavick @ Nov 21 2012, 01:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2030857"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As I said before, I'm talking mainly from an early game perspective, as Shift Hive was usually the first hive up (in bigger servers it was almost a necessity for first hive), and early shift rushes were what was devastating since the marines had no tech yet to deal with it and it prevented them from expanding otherwise because of the manpower it took to deal with the tactic. Phasegates have their own balancing factors and I'm not going to get into that, but they've been around since the first game and I don't see how it equates in this conversation since it's a midgame strategy.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Do you understand there is a cause for shift hive being up first? it was not as an exploit but from necessity. Early game rushes have been around as long as phase gates, this change does not remove them...it simply increases the penalty to aliens (totally reamed instead of on the back foot) if that rush fails.
Early game rushes are part of the game, this change makes them unviable unless your confident you will be succesful. The fact that the marines counter push into an egg locked hive which is why shifts became the necesity. UWE has been very slow to consider the larger server sizes in any balancing...sticking to max spawn waves of 3 for long period during hte beta despite the number of available eggs or dead aliens.
Start of game base rushes will be an all in choice....sadly its by the side that cant recycle and has to then wait as marines take their time teching up and winning game thats already lost. Marines will now be able to spread out faster and take away any early game map control the aliens have before PG (~4min mark).
<!--quoteo(post=2030866:date=Nov 20 2012, 09:39 PM:name=SpaceJew)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpaceJew @ Nov 20 2012, 09:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2030866"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You should really read the rest of the thread if you don't understand what we're talking about, since we've said it already. Early shift 'rushes' could easily cost you the game, even before, through wasting all your T.Res. It's not worth a possible res lock at any point in the game to spend T.Res on egg's with the current changes. Hives don't scale egg spawns. That's the issue. I don't know what other thread you're reading, but it must not be this one.
I will agree that it's very strange that even with the arguably massive recent nerf's Aliens are still on top with win-rate. I definitely will give you that much. The distribution on time with those wins is pretty darn good across the board too. It's making me wonder if maybe the Marines are the one's that need the adjusting.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If people said it cost dearly before the nerf apparently I did overlook it because it simply was not true. 10 res for a structure and 1 res per egg is not costing much of anything when in the process you're also expanding out over the entire map while the marines are forced to deal with the unending rushes. I know this from having had it done to me and having done it myself. There was absolutely no risk associated with shift rushing before the nerf. NONE.
The nerf was definitely not due to the fact that some random person did a shift rush, don't worry. If the marine team was bad enough to allow their base to be overrun by infestation, and then have 3 shifts dropped in it, imagine what 3 crags would have done.
That's not really what a shift rush was. The shift didn't even necessarily have to be right outside of the marine base. The worst uses I saw of it were at courtyard on docking and skylights on veil. Both of these are close enough to the base to put constant pressure on them while still being far enough away the marines still had to travel to get back to them. And when you're spawning waves of 11 aliens, that's hard to just overlook. Then there's a shift in nano on veil, as if capturing nano wasn't hard enough for marines to start with. But with a shift here you basically had a central point on the map that you could constantly spawn your team in and be within reach of pretty much everywhere on the map.
<!--quoteo(post=2030926:date=Nov 20 2012, 11:00 PM:name=Mavick)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mavick @ Nov 20 2012, 11:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2030926"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If people said it cost dearly before the nerf apparently I did overlook it because it simply was not true. 10 res for a structure and 1 res per egg is not costing much of anything when in the process you're also expanding out over the entire map while the marines are forced to deal with the unending rushes. I know this from having had it done to me and having done it myself. There was absolutely no risk associated with shift rushing before the nerf. NONE.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah. If you buy one egg you're right. 'Spam' implies many, yes? So ten egg's equals ten skulks <i>can eventually spawn</i> for 20 T.Res. If I am somehow being misconstrued as being wholly against these changes it's because you're not reading what I'm saying. You are replying to an argument that I am not making here. Unless, of course, you think both nerfs were desperately needed. I don't think they <i>both</i> were needed. We obviously won't agree, as you seem to hate anything being useful for the Aliens except as an expensive locational buff system for individual alien units. I like that aspect, but it doesn't leave the commander much to actually do anymore until late game when you can use all three together with a massive resource advantage. Building anything any sooner than the end of the late-game just doesn't seem worth it any more.
If even being able to spawn in a timely and useful location is OP for the Aliens, God help us because the nerf bat will result in a movement speed 2 Onos with skulk HP as the reward for three hives.
<!--quoteo(post=2030930:date=Nov 20 2012, 11:01 PM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Nov 20 2012, 11:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2030930"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The nerf was definitely not due to the fact that some random person did a shift rush, don't worry. If the marine team was bad enough to allow their base to be overrun by infestation, and then have 3 shifts dropped in it, imagine what 3 crags would have done.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Who knows why it was changed, but the change seems to indicate they thought that forward shift egg spam was somehow a problem. It did free up a lot of time for me when commanding, since I only had to baby sit a shift every few minutes to spam out another dozen eggs or so which was a comfortable level of involvement with egg spawning since it is horribly basic stuff to spawn eggs.
Basically, they see NS2Stats win-rates and are swinging around with a nerf bat is my current impression. (Exaggerated, of course. They are certainly trying stuff to make it better.) I'm really starting to think that Marines need some changes to bring them up, because pub Marines are just <i>so bad</i> the level of nerf required to level the playing field could very well be tactical nukes on one CC.
Again tho, you're not adding together all the factors with this. If you place an aggressive shift, it forces the marine team to have to deal with it. This frees the alien commander up to expand much faster then they normally would. So yeah, you spend a mediocre amount of res (20 is not much considering the starting t-res plus a couple nodes you're going to place quickly starting out) in order to capture most of the map, more then making your res back in the process.
Put it to you this way, several maps I've placed aggressive shifts, more then one actually, spammed eggs throughout. Never during any of those games was I hurting on res, even if one went down (which was very rare). Didn't matter what res I pumped into them, because I'd control most of the map anyway.
<!--quoteo(post=2030941:date=Nov 20 2012, 11:31 PM:name=Mavick)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mavick @ Nov 20 2012, 11:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2030941"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That's not really what a shift rush was. The shift didn't even necessarily have to be right outside of the marine base. The worst uses I saw of it were at courtyard on docking and skylights on veil. Both of these are close enough to the base to put constant pressure on them while still being far enough away the marines still had to travel to get back to them. And when you're spawning waves of 11 aliens, that's hard to just overlook. Then there's a shift in nano on veil, as if capturing nano wasn't hard enough for marines to start with. But with a shift here you basically had a central point on the map that you could constantly spawn your team in and be within reach of pretty much everywhere on the map.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I still don't understand why you think the Marines should have every advantage over the Aliens. If Marines take Nano it's just as hard to get them out for the exact same reason. It actually takes longer, and makes a second hive an early-mid game drop, as Aliens must cyst in and have a shift become mature enough to spawn eggs that also cost T.Res for just one spawn.
A phase gate and an armory let you hold it <i>forever</i> without consequence if you stop the second hive from going up or res lock them out of getting Bile Bomb. Even if you only take Pipe you've locked the Aliens out of Onos now. It had to go, but now you have trouble even spawning skulks near enough to matter.
Also, if the Aliens spawn at sub holding Nano is a giant headache. Smart marines will cut you off at System every time, and from there it's a slow spiral to a Marines win. It doesn't always play out that way because people don't remember the simple fact that double nodes are always an alien disadvantage due to cyst chains. When you have two hives it's a little easier, but you already delayed your second hive and you can cut the aliens off from either side. If Aliens hold Nano, your marines are being outplayed hardcore.
God forbid you ever spawn in Pipe as Aliens, that's probably my least favorite start position.
The whole <i>map</i> is heavily weighted for a Marines win, in fact. There are only four tech points, FFS.
If you're on veil and not rushing phase tech and Nano what exactly <i>are</i> you doing? Taking Pipe? Yuck.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Again tho, you're not adding together all the factors with this. If you place an aggressive shift, it forces the marine team to have to deal with it. This frees the alien commander up to expand much faster then they normally would. So yeah, you spend a mediocre amount of res (20 is not much considering the starting t-res plus a couple nodes you're going to place quickly starting out) in order to capture most of the map, more then making your res back in the process.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
With what magical resources are you building all this stuff with at the start of a game? You'd be out of resources with a shift and a full room of eggs along with three harvesters. You'd get enough for a hive after a little while, but that's assuming the Marines made a boneheaded mistake and tried to directly attack Nano grid when it's full of eggs when they could go attack System Waypointing instead. All they need to do is hold it for a short time to completely shut down Nano for the aliens.
Also, you do need to keep making eggs. It just depends on if the Marines are good enough to kill your skulks when they attack them in System after they sever the cyst chain.
Ah, so you're one of those kids that thinks rushing a 2nd hive is the only way to win then, that explains you're reasoning quite alot. Yeah, you get the resources back pretty quickly actually, since most of the map is uncontested due to what I've already explained several times.
And as far as veil being heavily marine sides, wtf man? Like hell it is. Aliens can capture nano so quickly and easily by rushing there (since they can get there much quicker no matter what hive they start with) and gorge barricading it until the marines get sick of attacking it, which happens every single time I play aliens on that map with a halfway competent team. Even IF the marines somehow get in there first, it's going to be awhile while the comm gets phase tech up and possibly turrets to help reinforce it, meanwhile the aliens have all kind of vents to get in there from multiple directions. I don't even tell my team to go to nano if I'm comming marines on that map unless they get there on their own and looks like they can hold it on their own with an armory until I can help them further.
And just to add the icing to this conversation, after playing a full night on my 24 man server, aliens have won far more then they've lost, so yeah, it's clearly crippling them /sarcasm.
Some people just gotta ###### to ######, honestly.
<!--quoteo(post=2030923:date=Nov 20 2012, 10:57 PM:name=hakenspit)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hakenspit @ Nov 20 2012, 10:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2030923"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Do you understand there is a cause for shift hive being up first? it was not as an exploit but from necessity. Early game rushes have been around as long as phase gates, this change does not remove them...it simply increases the penalty to aliens (totally reamed instead of on the back foot) if that rush fails.
Early game rushes are part of the game, this change makes them unviable unless your confident you will be succesful. The fact that the marines counter push into an egg locked hive which is why shifts became the necesity. UWE has been very slow to consider the larger server sizes in any balancing...sticking to max spawn waves of 3 for long period during hte beta despite the number of available eggs or dead aliens.
Start of game base rushes will be an all in choice....sadly its by the side that cant recycle and has to then wait as marines take their time teching up and winning game thats already lost. Marines will now be able to spread out faster and take away any early game map control the aliens have before PG (~4min mark).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Of course I understand why it was a necessity, in fact in my quote you used I STATED it was a necessity. I didn't go into all the details like you did because it's common sense. Shifts are still able to avert egg locking to an extent, but at a higher cost and not as instantly, AS IT SHOULD BE. If you're team is dying over and over then they deserve to sit in spawn. Why the hell shouldn't they?
<!--quoteo(post=2030503:date=Nov 20 2012, 09:45 PM:name=rantology)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rantology @ Nov 20 2012, 09:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2030503"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->... I think (1 egg per 5s for 20s at 4-5 <b>[5]</b> tres cost?). In the end, if the cost comes back down to 1 per egg and the spawning frequency gets majorly throttled, it would put the shift in a good spot.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Comments
I don't think it required a <i>massive</i> nerf at all, considering that Marines often times never bothered on pushing forward to the shift and killing it they quite fairly deserved to be constantly rushed. If anything, either one of the implemented changes would have done a good enough job by themselves. Both has effectively killed off forward shifts being viable. It takes an Alien roughly 12 - 15 seconds to spawn and be effective. Kill off a wave, and you have more than enough time to get in and kill the shift if it's really that close. Especially with a shotgun or grenade launcher. The panic that overtakes the Aliens team when Marines have a phase gate near a hive, should be somewhat mirrored if there is a nearby shift IMO. To be fair, perhaps the Shift and Crag should have a more audible sound effect to notify the Marines that there is, in fact, a shift or crag nearby. This would also make Shades <i>slightly</i> more useful.
(Oh, wait, I mentioned a difference! I guess someone will break out the trusty ol' "defeats any argument of logic" asymmetry dodge!)
Point is it's not really bothersome for the Marines team to have a shift right outside of their base any more, or it does worry them but costs the alien's a ton of T.Res to try to maintain an easily lost structure. It is different, but it's supposed to achieve roughly the same result. Shifts can only fill that role at a massive expenditure that will now be better served in just dropping another fade or lerk. Again, rendering Alien structures non-viable in the mid game. (Which is my point, at the end of the day.)
Before the change, I do agree just because of the sheer amount of egg's you could spawn in a short time-frame. But this nerf has blown apart the usefulness of a shift as anything other than a forward infinite energy station for Gorge Bile Bomb deluge. See? Still useful, but now both the shifts functions are so expensive that they're only something you can effectively use at end-game. Structure teleport? Stupid expensive. Egg spawn? Stupid expensive.
I think Aliens are, at the end of the day, being punished for the inability of the Marine commander to know how to use an ARC turret properly or research flamethrowers at an opportune time.
I like the idea for shifts spawning egg's over-time at a somewhat cheaper cost than what we have now. That seems like an absolutely ideal situation.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think the change was perfect. It reverted the shift to being what it was originally intended for: a means of adding quicker spawning for aliens much like additional ip's for marines (plus its energy regen), but NOT a means of spawning your entire team wherever you wanted on the map at any given time, completing negating whatever victories the marines had just won by better play.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Also, Marine IP's eventually pay themselves off whereas a Shift is a constant T.Res sink just to <i>spawn players</i>. Think about that for a second before replying on the 'balance' of these changes. Might be fine for less players, since you'll need less eggs. The more players, and the more alien deaths, the more broken it becomes. Also, you can't spawn all your players anywhere you want. Only the dead ones. You're thinking of the Marines phase gate and emergency beacon functions, which are actually something the other team gets which lets him manipulate the location of useful troops, not dead ones.
3 t.res for 2 eggs with a local cooldown for each shift would be splendid.
You can still spawn 24 eggs/minute. What is your team doing if you're losing that many skulks constantly?
I think the purpose of this change is to get away from "OMG EMERGENCY EGGS EVERYWHERE" and change it to "Oh, we're losing a lot skulks and might run out of eggs.... better start stockpiling." I think the cost increase is too much, but I like that you can't instadrop 10 eggs around a shift. Teams should be punished for lacking foresight.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
sustained xenocide attack requires a lot of eggs :)
i think a better solution would be to make it that each additional egg costs more res
so if you have 0 eggs in any hives, then you build an egg its free.
if you have 1 egg, the egg you build costs 1 res
2 eggs, the 3rd egg costs you 2 res,
so on and so on.
(Oh, wait, I mentioned a difference! I guess someone will break out the trusty ol' "defeats any argument of logic" asymmetry dodge!)
Point is it's not really bothersome for the Marines team to have a shift right outside of their base any more, or it does worry them but costs the alien's a ton of T.Res to try to maintain an easily lost structure. It is different, but it's supposed to achieve roughly the same result. Shifts can only fill that role at a massive expenditure that will now be better served in just dropping another fade or lerk. Again, rendering Alien structures non-viable in the mid game. (Which is my point, at the end of the day.)
Before the change, I do agree just because of the sheer amount of egg's you could spawn in a short time-frame. But this nerf has blown apart the usefulness of a shift as anything other than a forward infinite energy station for Gorge Bile Bomb deluge. See? Still useful, but now both the shifts functions are so expensive that they're only something you can effectively use at end-game. Structure teleport? Stupid expensive. Egg spawn? Stupid expensive.
I think Aliens are, at the end of the day, being punished for the inability of the Marine commander to know how to use an ARC turret properly or research flamethrowers at an opportune time.
I like the idea for shifts spawning egg's over-time at a somewhat cheaper cost than what we have now. That seems like an absolutely ideal situation.
Also, Marine IP's eventually pay themselves off whereas a Shift is a constant T.Res sink just to <i>spawn players</i>. Think about that for a second before replying on the 'balance' of these changes. Might be fine for less players, since you'll need less eggs. The more players, and the more alien deaths, the more broken it becomes. Also, you can't spawn all your players anywhere you want. Only the dead ones. You're thinking of the Marines phase gate and emergency beacon functions, which are actually something the other team gets which lets him manipulate the location of useful troops, not dead ones.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think shifts were ever *intended* to be forward spawning bases to start with, hence the change. You seem to forget shifts server another purpose as well, best used in conjunction with a gorge nearby for energy purposes. They're also one of the cheapest structures to build. And I happen to run a 24 man server, so I know its impact on larger servers. The impact prior to the patch was devastating to marines if placed near a base, with ammo reloads it was simply impossible to push into a defended shift location (read: one with a gorge also there to heal, possibly even crags as well). I know, I tried this several times with decent marine teams and we effectively spent much too much time on one area which just cripples a team in terms of map control. I'm also speaking in terms of early game, when flamethrowers take time to research whereas a shift can be put up much before then. If you can control early game as effectively as could be done with aggressive shift placements it just handicaps the marine team in the long run. And again, as I said, if a marine team is able to repeatedly kill the entire zerging alien team time after time, that alien team deserves to sit in a respawn queue and rethink their strategy, just like a marine team would have to do with a typical 2 IP setup. Being able to constantly zerg a team and win through attrition is not a terribly brilliant way to win a game.
It just seems to me the dev's wanted shifts to be meant more for putting in areas like a hive being built, with the ability to spawn a few eggs there in case and enable a gorge to help build the hive quickly. Not placed outside a marine base or another key point away from the hive(s) to keep marines occupied while the alien commander had free roam to expand wherever he wants, since he can do that with nobody present, whereas a marine commander cannot unless he's got MAC's roaming around.
They still can be, if you simply <i>hate</i> the idea of T.Res in the bank. Ergo you are wrong here since you can still use it in the same way. You just can't do it at the start of a match without breaking the bank and putting you in an easy resource lock situation. This is a problem on high volume servers because it's puts you seriously behind on everything else, like your second hive that you desperately need to even be competitive in the late-early game to the early-mid game. Obviously you don't <i>need</i> to go Shift first any more but it was handy on high volume servers to not have a chance at egg lock early on since you tend to lose a lot of skulks unless your team is pretty effective. (Which they usually aren't on high volume servers.)
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You seem to forget shifts server another purpose as well, best used in conjunction with a gorge nearby for energy purposes.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And you seem to have forgotten to read my actual post. Whoops! (I did actually specifically mention that very thing.)
I honestly read your whole post, and wrote an in-depth line-by-line post. Then I decided that past this point it wasn't worth the TL;DR. You obviously didn't give me the same benefit I gave you on this one.
And you seem to have forgotten to read my actual post. Whoops! (I did actually specifically mention that very thing.)
I honestly read your whole post, and wrote an in-depth line-by-line post. Then I decided that past this point it wasn't worth the TL;DR. You obviously didn't give me the same benefit I gave you on this one.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
When you realize that aliens should be penalized for dying so fast that they can't keep up with the respawn, then I'll give you that benefit. And not being able to use it that way early game without such a high risk is exactly my point in why both nerfs were needed.
I don't see it as an OP strategy. I've never had it done against me, but I imagine it is easily counterable. And is huuugely risky. The marines could just camp the eggs while one person locks down the entire map. Can't only 3 aliens spawn at once? And they're forced to spawn at the shift location so marines can just wait there with a full clip and shoot down each spawn wave.
Err, you still haven't actually answered as to why you believe only the aliens should be heavily penalized for spawning. I mean, a shift is really more of a phase gate than an IP, although it has some characteristics of both. 'Keeping up with the respawn' doesn't really even make sense, other than I could build 1 T.Res structures faster than they could be spawned into. There are still the same number of skulks spawning out of them as before, it just costs so much that it's better to just be egg locked for a few seconds after every spawn wave. (Thus delaying the entire teams respawn if several aliens die in a push.) The Shift was always killable, right out there in the open though. But ok, I now recognize that Marines should have no downsides ever and be made of golden win sauce. Better?
<!--quoteo(post=2030821:date=Nov 20 2012, 08:35 PM:name=d0ped0g)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (d0ped0g @ Nov 20 2012, 08:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2030821"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Are shift rushes really why this nerf happened?
I don't see it as an OP strategy. I've never had it done against me, but I imagine it is easily counterable. And is huuugely risky. The marines could just camp the eggs while one person locks down the entire map. Can't only 3 aliens spawn at once? And they're forced to spawn at the shift location so marines can just wait there with a full clip and shoot down each spawn wave.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It wasn't really an OP strategy before to Marines that had their thinking cap on and shot the shift first, then camped the egg's. It slowed down the Marines inevitable march to winning, it would seem, so it needed to go. Either the stupid high cost needs to go, or the cooldown. Both are very painful.
Sorry about the sarcasm and hyperbole, it isn't the end of the world or anything, but shift was one of the few structures that was actually useful to strategize with as Alien commander. It can still be used that way, but it's going to be a lot tougher to hold forward locations now. I don't <i>mind</i> spending T.Res, but when I need to spend that much time and T.Res on a structure just to spawn players somewhere useful it really sucks. I would rather it be automated for the shift to build eggs in some way, even if it's way worse in every way than it is now, than baby-sit Egg's as Alien commander.
If the aliens want to spam 20 eggs to hold an area, let them waste 20 * egg trescost. This doesn't work in the favour of aliens foresight or not. Shift eggs should be balanced very simply around a tres cost instead of some mixture of tres + cd.
What's really broken is spawn waves and i hope we don't lose sight of that.
And when you realise they already are both thorugh no res when dead and longer spawn times, egg locks etc.
for a few res marines can easily build 3 IP's which deals with any mass deaths without penalty at all (recycling guns eliminates further costs)...but I guess the whole "there must be a penalty for dieing lots" only applies to one side right?
You say shifts allow too many aliens to suddenly appear..sounds a bit like a phase gate issue near a hive....oh wait only 1 side can move quickly right?
And if you haven't seen the tactic, please don't comment. It certainly was never as easy as "camping the eggs", since they could spam the things everywhere and then all of a sudden you're dealing with their entire team in your face.
for a few res marines can easily build 3 IP's which deals with any mass deaths without penalty at all (recycling guns eliminates further costs)...but I guess the whole "there must be a penalty for dieing lots" only applies to one side right?
You say shifts allow too many aliens to suddenly appear..sounds a bit like a phase gate issue near a hive....oh wait only 1 side can move quickly right?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As I said before, I'm talking mainly from an early game perspective, as Shift Hive was usually the first hive up (in bigger servers it was almost a necessity for first hive), and early shift rushes were what was devastating since the marines had no tech yet to deal with it and it prevented them from expanding otherwise because of the manpower it took to deal with the tactic. Phasegates have their own balancing factors and I'm not going to get into that, but they've been around since the first game and I don't see how it equates in this conversation since it's a midgame strategy.
You should really read the rest of the thread if you don't understand what we're talking about, since we've said it already. Early shift 'rushes' could easily cost you the game, even before, through wasting all your T.Res. It's not worth a possible res lock at any point in the game to spend T.Res on egg's with the current changes. Hives don't scale egg spawns. That's the issue. I don't know what other thread you're reading, but it must not be this one.
I will agree that it's very strange that even with the arguably massive recent nerf's Aliens are still on top with win-rate. I definitely will give you that much. The distribution on time with those wins is pretty darn good across the board too. It's making me wonder if maybe the Marines are the one's that need the adjusting.
I guess it's to prevent spamming with two or three shifts to get around the cool down. With a cost like that, though, well you should drop maybe a fade or something instead lol
To be honest I didn't even know it was a global cooldown. One shift was expensive enough that two seemed like madness.
It's not the cooldown per say, it's both the hits at once that hurts.
I still think if they lowered the accuracy of the LMG just a hair it would go a long way to evening out the early game for newer players without being overly punishing on upper end players.
I mean, they have a pistol for sniping right?
Also, I believe global cooldown is a really stupid thing (let the Alien comm spam APM in a short time for once).
Do you understand there is a cause for shift hive being up first? it was not as an exploit but from necessity.
Early game rushes have been around as long as phase gates, this change does not remove them...it simply increases the penalty to aliens (totally reamed instead of on the back foot) if that rush fails.
Early game rushes are part of the game, this change makes them unviable unless your confident you will be succesful.
The fact that the marines counter push into an egg locked hive which is why shifts became the necesity.
UWE has been very slow to consider the larger server sizes in any balancing...sticking to max spawn waves of 3 for long period during hte beta despite the number of available eggs or dead aliens.
Start of game base rushes will be an all in choice....sadly its by the side that cant recycle and has to then wait as marines take their time teching up and winning game thats already lost.
Marines will now be able to spread out faster and take away any early game map control the aliens have before PG (~4min mark).
I will agree that it's very strange that even with the arguably massive recent nerf's Aliens are still on top with win-rate. I definitely will give you that much. The distribution on time with those wins is pretty darn good across the board too. It's making me wonder if maybe the Marines are the one's that need the adjusting.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If people said it cost dearly before the nerf apparently I did overlook it because it simply was not true. 10 res for a structure and 1 res per egg is not costing much of anything when in the process you're also expanding out over the entire map while the marines are forced to deal with the unending rushes. I know this from having had it done to me and having done it myself. There was absolutely no risk associated with shift rushing before the nerf. NONE.
Yeah. If you buy one egg you're right. 'Spam' implies many, yes? So ten egg's equals ten skulks <i>can eventually spawn</i> for 20 T.Res. If I am somehow being misconstrued as being wholly against these changes it's because you're not reading what I'm saying. You are replying to an argument that I am not making here. Unless, of course, you think both nerfs were desperately needed. I don't think they <i>both</i> were needed. We obviously won't agree, as you seem to hate anything being useful for the Aliens except as an expensive locational buff system for individual alien units. I like that aspect, but it doesn't leave the commander much to actually do anymore until late game when you can use all three together with a massive resource advantage. Building anything any sooner than the end of the late-game just doesn't seem worth it any more.
If even being able to spawn in a timely and useful location is OP for the Aliens, God help us because the nerf bat will result in a movement speed 2 Onos with skulk HP as the reward for three hives.
<!--quoteo(post=2030930:date=Nov 20 2012, 11:01 PM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Nov 20 2012, 11:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2030930"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The nerf was definitely not due to the fact that some random person did a shift rush, don't worry. If the marine team was bad enough to allow their base to be overrun by infestation, and then have 3 shifts dropped in it, imagine what 3 crags would have done.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Who knows why it was changed, but the change seems to indicate they thought that forward shift egg spam was somehow a problem. It did free up a lot of time for me when commanding, since I only had to baby sit a shift every few minutes to spam out another dozen eggs or so which was a comfortable level of involvement with egg spawning since it is horribly basic stuff to spawn eggs.
Basically, they see NS2Stats win-rates and are swinging around with a nerf bat is my current impression. (Exaggerated, of course. They are certainly trying stuff to make it better.) I'm really starting to think that Marines need some changes to bring them up, because pub Marines are just <i>so bad</i> the level of nerf required to level the playing field could very well be tactical nukes on one CC.
Marines can spawn for free as well, with less waiting.
Put it to you this way, several maps I've placed aggressive shifts, more then one actually, spammed eggs throughout. Never during any of those games was I hurting on res, even if one went down (which was very rare). Didn't matter what res I pumped into them, because I'd control most of the map anyway.
I still don't understand why you think the Marines should have every advantage over the Aliens. If Marines take Nano it's just as hard to get them out for the exact same reason. It actually takes longer, and makes a second hive an early-mid game drop, as Aliens must cyst in and have a shift become mature enough to spawn eggs that also cost T.Res for just one spawn.
A phase gate and an armory let you hold it <i>forever</i> without consequence if you stop the second hive from going up or res lock them out of getting Bile Bomb. Even if you only take Pipe you've locked the Aliens out of Onos now. It had to go, but now you have trouble even spawning skulks near enough to matter.
Also, if the Aliens spawn at sub holding Nano is a giant headache. Smart marines will cut you off at System every time, and from there it's a slow spiral to a Marines win. It doesn't always play out that way because people don't remember the simple fact that double nodes are always an alien disadvantage due to cyst chains. When you have two hives it's a little easier, but you already delayed your second hive and you can cut the aliens off from either side. If Aliens hold Nano, your marines are being outplayed hardcore.
God forbid you ever spawn in Pipe as Aliens, that's probably my least favorite start position.
The whole <i>map</i> is heavily weighted for a Marines win, in fact. There are only four tech points, FFS.
If you're on veil and not rushing phase tech and Nano what exactly <i>are</i> you doing? Taking Pipe? Yuck.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Again tho, you're not adding together all the factors with this. If you place an aggressive shift, it forces the marine team to have to deal with it. This frees the alien commander up to expand much faster then they normally would. So yeah, you spend a mediocre amount of res (20 is not much considering the starting t-res plus a couple nodes you're going to place quickly starting out) in order to capture most of the map, more then making your res back in the process.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
With what magical resources are you building all this stuff with at the start of a game? You'd be out of resources with a shift and a full room of eggs along with three harvesters. You'd get enough for a hive after a little while, but that's assuming the Marines made a boneheaded mistake and tried to directly attack Nano grid when it's full of eggs when they could go attack System Waypointing instead. All they need to do is hold it for a short time to completely shut down Nano for the aliens.
Also, you do need to keep making eggs. It just depends on if the Marines are good enough to kill your skulks when they attack them in System after they sever the cyst chain.
And as far as veil being heavily marine sides, wtf man? Like hell it is. Aliens can capture nano so quickly and easily by rushing there (since they can get there much quicker no matter what hive they start with) and gorge barricading it until the marines get sick of attacking it, which happens every single time I play aliens on that map with a halfway competent team. Even IF the marines somehow get in there first, it's going to be awhile while the comm gets phase tech up and possibly turrets to help reinforce it, meanwhile the aliens have all kind of vents to get in there from multiple directions. I don't even tell my team to go to nano if I'm comming marines on that map unless they get there on their own and looks like they can hold it on their own with an armory until I can help them further.
Some people just gotta ###### to ######, honestly.
Early game rushes have been around as long as phase gates, this change does not remove them...it simply increases the penalty to aliens (totally reamed instead of on the back foot) if that rush fails.
Early game rushes are part of the game, this change makes them unviable unless your confident you will be succesful.
The fact that the marines counter push into an egg locked hive which is why shifts became the necesity.
UWE has been very slow to consider the larger server sizes in any balancing...sticking to max spawn waves of 3 for long period during hte beta despite the number of available eggs or dead aliens.
Start of game base rushes will be an all in choice....sadly its by the side that cant recycle and has to then wait as marines take their time teching up and winning game thats already lost.
Marines will now be able to spread out faster and take away any early game map control the aliens have before PG (~4min mark).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Of course I understand why it was a necessity, in fact in my quote you used I STATED it was a necessity. I didn't go into all the details like you did because it's common sense. Shifts are still able to avert egg locking to an extent, but at a higher cost and not as instantly, AS IT SHOULD BE. If you're team is dying over and over then they deserve to sit in spawn. Why the hell shouldn't they?
This plz