shifts are already godlike buildings because of the energy regeneration alone.... it's got like 30 metre radius similar to crag/shade and gives you near enough infinite energy.
non-stop bile, umbra, stomp or blink, even without adrenaline trait.
therefore i think there's a bit too much whine about the 'zomg eggspawner building got nerfed!'.
And it's already been increased back to spawning 2 eggs per click now for 5 res in b231, and I assume it's still tha twas in b232. I bet people will still whine about it somehow.
I don't see it as an OP strategy. I've never had it done against me, but I imagine it is easily counterable. And is huuugely risky. The marines could just camp the eggs while one person locks down the entire map. Can't only 3 aliens spawn at once? And they're forced to spawn at the shift location so marines can just wait there with a full clip and shoot down each spawn wave.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Easier said then done. I delt with a shift rush before, since they are so close to your base, they can spawn much faster then you. Your limited to 1 - 2 IP's early on. But they can spawn in much higher quantities. The Alien commander is free to build because no alien is required to build the structure. So marines are left holding down the base while Alien Comm gets free reign.
So essentially what ends up happening is aliens dominate the map early, and you only have 2 - 3 marines free to build structures and take control of the map. Since the 2 - 3 mrines can't cover the structures, lone aliens can easily destroy the ungaurded structures.
Essentially shift rushes can break a marine team easily with no effective counter. With the new balance though, shift rush is extremely expensive. An now it balances it out. [Though i think its a bit 2 expensive] Maybe dropping egg prices to 3 instead of 5.
The 5 second cool down is fine, since an alien comm can easily antiticipate a marine rushing hive. And generate eggs before they come, instead of after. The alien comm can easily track movements by watching the map. As marines appear as black smoke.
I think this is much better then Alien comm getting just random spawn eggs while under attack. You have to take precursory measures now
<!--quoteo(post=2030979:date=Nov 21 2012, 04:27 PM:name=Mavick)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mavick @ Nov 21 2012, 04:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2030979"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Of course I understand why it was a necessity, in fact in my quote you used I STATED it was a necessity. I didn't go into all the details like you did because it's common sense. Shifts are still able to avert egg locking to an extent, but at a higher cost and not as instantly, AS IT SHOULD BE. If you're team is dying over and over then they deserve to sit in spawn. Why the hell shouldn't they?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> So your saying you understand that the alien spawn system is broken without a shift on a server over 14 players? Yet you dont think that taking away the only work around aliens have is stupid? Its not like they fixed the spawn issues.
By nerfing shifts like this aliens cant expand early game or they risk egg lock even without marine camping. Shifts will not be able to assist and if they do its at extreme costs, given a 24 player server is 12 a side...you would need to spend 7.5 res to produce 6 eggs...which if marines are pushing in are paper thin wastes of res.
Aliens are already stung with the spawn wave system causing longer death time than marines...normally twice as long and now with these changes even shifts are useless to help early game as you dont have the res to spend (not if you want to be able to afford the cysts to a harvester as well).
I just hope UWE decide to listen to some of our complaints again, they fixed the max 3 per wave after months of harrasment...but they only did it by half.
<!--quoteo(post=2030841:date=Nov 21 2012, 05:00 AM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Nov 21 2012, 05:00 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2030841"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Agree with zek, the cooldown isn't so good design.
If the aliens want to spam 20 eggs to hold an area, let them waste 20 * egg trescost. This doesn't work in the favour of aliens foresight or not. Shift eggs should be balanced very simply around a tres cost instead of some mixture of tres + cd.
What's really broken is spawn waves and i hope we don't lose sight of that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So the commander should be able to spam 20+ crag heals next to the hive at the same time if he wants to? He's still paying the full res cost...
<!--quoteo(post=2030463:date=Nov 21 2012, 07:55 AM:name=rantology)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rantology @ Nov 21 2012, 07:55 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2030463"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What I see happening with shifts (or saw, rather in pre-230) is shifts being used retroactively to spawn aliens into areas/hives already under attack, or to quickly spawn the entire team into a position the commander chooses to constantly rush and attack portions of the map together. A big zerg machine.
IMO this is.. well not optimal for the strategy part of the game. My biggest problem with the shift was the sheer volume you could spawn at one time. Hive under attack? oh ######, better spawn 15 eggs real quick! This type of play seems too forgiving to the alien strategy/commander. If the egg spawn had a longer cooldown per egg (i.e. my suggested 5s per egg, I even think 5s per 2 eggs is too fast), you reward commander micro and foresight, making the shift something you need to plan ahead with to use effectively rather than just a massive on-demand spam machine/ alien version of a distress beacon.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> But beacon's and phase gates aren't "too forgiving" for the Marine commander right?
AurOn2COOKIES! FREEDOM, AND BISCUITS!AustraliaJoin Date: 2012-01-13Member: 140224Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Forum staff
aparently taking out strategies for aliens (which, granted, have barely any currently) is uwe's current mantra. Great. as if khamm wasnt boring enough as it was..
<!--quoteo(post=2031953:date=Nov 22 2012, 05:31 PM:name=AuroN2)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (AuroN2 @ Nov 22 2012, 05:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2031953"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->aparently taking out strategies for aliens (which, granted, have barely any currently) is uwe's current mantra. Great. as if khamm wasnt boring enough as it was..<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Rebuilding cysts is both highly strategic and exciting! As is having 3 upgrade options to pick from for your hive. Spoiled for choice!
Comments
non-stop bile, umbra, stomp or blink, even without adrenaline trait.
therefore i think there's a bit too much whine about the 'zomg eggspawner building got nerfed!'.
I don't see it as an OP strategy. I've never had it done against me, but I imagine it is easily counterable. And is huuugely risky. The marines could just camp the eggs while one person locks down the entire map. Can't only 3 aliens spawn at once? And they're forced to spawn at the shift location so marines can just wait there with a full clip and shoot down each spawn wave.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Easier said then done. I delt with a shift rush before, since they are so close to your base, they can spawn much faster then you. Your limited to 1 - 2 IP's early on. But they can spawn in much higher quantities. The Alien commander is free to build because no alien is required to build the structure. So marines are left holding down the base while Alien Comm gets free reign.
So essentially what ends up happening is aliens dominate the map early, and you only have 2 - 3 marines free to build structures and take control of the map. Since the 2 - 3 mrines can't cover the structures, lone aliens can easily destroy the ungaurded structures.
Essentially shift rushes can break a marine team easily with no effective counter. With the new balance though, shift rush is extremely expensive. An now it balances it out. [Though i think its a bit 2 expensive] Maybe dropping egg prices to 3 instead of 5.
The 5 second cool down is fine, since an alien comm can easily antiticipate a marine rushing hive. And generate eggs before they come, instead of after.
The alien comm can easily track movements by watching the map. As marines appear as black smoke.
I think this is much better then Alien comm getting just random spawn eggs while under attack. You have to take precursory measures now
So your saying you understand that the alien spawn system is broken without a shift on a server over 14 players?
Yet you dont think that taking away the only work around aliens have is stupid? Its not like they fixed the spawn issues.
By nerfing shifts like this aliens cant expand early game or they risk egg lock even without marine camping.
Shifts will not be able to assist and if they do its at extreme costs, given a 24 player server is 12 a side...you would need to spend 7.5 res to produce 6 eggs...which if marines are pushing in are paper thin wastes of res.
Aliens are already stung with the spawn wave system causing longer death time than marines...normally twice as long and now with these changes even shifts are useless to help early game as you dont have the res to spend (not if you want to be able to afford the cysts to a harvester as well).
I just hope UWE decide to listen to some of our complaints again, they fixed the max 3 per wave after months of harrasment...but they only did it by half.
If the aliens want to spam 20 eggs to hold an area, let them waste 20 * egg trescost. This doesn't work in the favour of aliens foresight or not. Shift eggs should be balanced very simply around a tres cost instead of some mixture of tres + cd.
What's really broken is spawn waves and i hope we don't lose sight of that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So the commander should be able to spam 20+ crag heals next to the hive at the same time if he wants to? He's still paying the full res cost...
IMO this is.. well not optimal for the strategy part of the game. My biggest problem with the shift was the sheer volume you could spawn at one time. Hive under attack? oh ######, better spawn 15 eggs real quick! This type of play seems too forgiving to the alien strategy/commander. If the egg spawn had a longer cooldown per egg (i.e. my suggested 5s per egg, I even think 5s per 2 eggs is too fast), you reward commander micro and foresight, making the shift something you need to plan ahead with to use effectively rather than just a massive on-demand spam machine/ alien version of a distress beacon.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But beacon's and phase gates aren't "too forgiving" for the Marine commander right?
Rebuilding cysts is both highly strategic and exciting! As is having 3 upgrade options to pick from for your hive. Spoiled for choice!