<!--quoteo(post=2048436:date=Dec 20 2012, 08:43 AM:name=NeoRussia)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NeoRussia @ Dec 20 2012, 08:43 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2048436"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm not against scripting personally, having your damage output depend on a fricking QTE every time you shoot is just a bad gameplay mechanic.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And scripting to get the most out of your weapon is a good mechanic?
First of all, the OPs suggestion - while worded in a way that attracts rude responses - does actually have merit.
The marines don't need more bullets in the LMG since it only takes 10 to kill a skulk. That's all find and dandy but...
<b><!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->This game has more than skulks.<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--></b>
There is a reason why marines have damage upgrades at all, and that is since as the game goes on, the aliens get more powerful and deadly. If it is just a matter of needing enough bullets in a clip to kill a skulk, you could cut the LMG clip in half and still do that. That's not the point.
Let's look at the battles at the top end. As it stands now a skulk can solo an EXO in just 7 seconds. A marine with a weapons 3 LMG?
With 13 points per bullet, if the marine connects with all of his bullets, he'll do 650 points of damage in one clip, which takes about 5 seconds to fire. For that solo marine to kill the Onos with his assault rifle, he'll need to dump FOUR FULL CLIPS of bullets into the Onos, and then 37 of his last 50 bullets. The marine will need to have an accuracy level of 94.8% or greater, since if he misses with more than 13 bullets, he won't have enough bullets in his gun to make the kill. Of course this assumes the marine would still be alive. The amount of time it would take to fire all those bullets would be 25 seconds, plus time to reload between clips. IIRC the reload is a little over 2 seconds, let's call it 2 for sake or argument, that brings this to 33 seconds in total. In that time the Onos would only need to land TWO attacks to kill the marine.
<b>THAT</b> is why we need options like the OP's suggestion in the game. Let the commander have the option to research it. Give it a cost. Options are never a bad thing.
I'd love to see more fancy upgrades tho. Increased clip size, grenades, fast-reload, double pistols... Too bad there's already a million res sinks marine side. But still.
<!--quoteo(post=2048549:date=Dec 20 2012, 09:45 AM:name=marsvin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (marsvin @ Dec 20 2012, 09:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2048549"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And scripting to get the most out of your weapon is a good mechanic?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah. Isn't scripting cheating? It gives you an ability that the developers did not intend.
It's like that mod someone posted that changes aliens to bright green. Anything not intended by the devs needs to be blocked. Or the servers need to let you know if they allow scripting so that you can avoid those servers when you don't want to play with people who can't play the game the way it was meant to be played.
Savant, that is not very good reasoning. Marines do get a lot more than just a lmg. They get shotguns, grenade launchers, and flame throwers. You say a skulk can kill an exo in 10 seconds. Well, an exo can kill a skulk in .1 seconds. I never have had a single skulk kill my exo. Just like a single marine has never killed my onos. Marines also get jetpacks. These make the onos almost useless in 1v1 fights in bigger rooms. Giving examples of really bad play by an individual is not a very good supporting argument. 1v1 arguments don't make much sense in this game anyways. If you are fighting by yourself often, you are doing it wrong.
That said, I wouldn't mind both sides getting more upgrades to research. More upgrades would probably make it harder to balance, but more choices would help bring more variety to games.
<!--quoteo(post=2048563:date=Dec 20 2012, 11:06 AM:name=bongofish)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (bongofish @ Dec 20 2012, 11:06 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2048563"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yeah. Isn't scripting cheating? It gives you an ability that the developers did not intend.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If the devs include a scripting language in the engine that is useable by the end user in the game environment, how could it be unintended?
This isn't to say that there may be bugs in the scripting, including things that they did not intend to include; however using this is not cheating. Fixing those bugs will correct the problem.
Making a blanket statement that "scripting is cheating" is like saying using presets on your car radio is cheating because there is a dial you can use to change the station.
<!--quoteo(post=2048564:date=Dec 20 2012, 01:06 PM:name=lumina)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (lumina @ Dec 20 2012, 01:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2048564"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You say a skulk can kill an exo in 10 seconds. Well, an exo can kill a skulk in .1 seconds. I never have had a single skulk kill my exo.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->First off, not 10 seconds, just a fraction under SEVEN seconds. By comparison, an Onos needs 6 seconds to kill an EXO. That's how powerful a skulk is versus an EXO. It can basically kill the EXO in the same time it takes an Onos to kill an EXO.
If you haven't been soloed by a skulk, then you need to play more time in an EXO and/or in games without all rookies. Seriously, soloing an EXO is easy for a skulk. On two occasions I have killed TWO and lived. I see skulks kill EXOs all the time, at least once a game when EXOs are on the field. It's just a matter of circle-strafe and bite. The EXO points down and fires, but bullet spread and the massive muzzle flash make it awkward at the best of times. Meanwhile the skulk with alien vision on gets a big orange target to chomp with no vision distractions from anything else. Or my favorite, I sit on a wall and chomp the EXO, he looks down, sees no skulk, and is dead before he realizes that I was on a wall or ceiling. Let's put it this way. Next time you are in an EXO, try walking from base to a hive as an EXO <b>alone</b>, and lemme know how far you get. :)
I don't want to get off topic, but seriously, you won't win this argument.
<!--quoteo(post=2048577:date=Dec 20 2012, 11:51 AM:name=Savant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Savant @ Dec 20 2012, 11:51 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2048577"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->First off, not 10 seconds, just a fraction under SEVEN seconds. By comparison, an Onos needs 6 seconds to kill an EXO. That's how powerful a skulk is versus an EXO. It can basically kill the EXO in the same time it takes an Onos to kill an EXO.
If you haven't been soloed by a skulk, then you need to play more time in an EXO and/or in games without all rookies. Seriously, soloing an EXO is easy for a skulk. On two occasions I have killed TWO and lived. I see skulks kill EXOs all the time, at least once a game when EXOs are on the field. It's just a matter of circle-strafe and bite. The EXO points down and fires, but bullet spread and the massive muzzle flash make it awkward at the best of times. Meanwhile the skulk with alien vision on gets a big orange target to chomp with no vision distractions from anything else. Or my favorite, I sit on a wall and chomp the EXO, he looks down, sees no skulk, and is dead before he realizes that I was on a wall or ceiling. Let's put it this way. Next time you are in an EXO, try walking from base to a hive as an EXO <b>alone</b>, and lemme know how far you get. :)
I don't want to get off topic, but seriously, you won't win this argument.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm gonna +1 this as well. This echos my experience, as long as the EXO is unsupported by marines with welders.
<!--quoteo(post=2048565:date=Dec 20 2012, 11:26 AM:name=MMZ_Torak)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MMZ_Torak @ Dec 20 2012, 11:26 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2048565"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If the devs include a scripting language in the engine that is useable by the end user in the game environment, how could it be unintended?
This isn't to say that there may be bugs in the scripting, including things that they did not intend to include; however using this is not cheating. Fixing those bugs will correct the problem.
Making a blanket statement that "scripting is cheating" is like saying using presets on your car radio is cheating because there is a dial you can use to change the station.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So a script that lets someone shoot faster than is possible for a non-aided human isn't cheating? What is it then? It certainly falls under "unfair advantage". If this is how they want things to work, why not make it a setting?
And they certainly should allow servers a setting to disable all scripts so that people who want to know that the playing field is level have some way to enforce this.
Also, pretty sure the scripting is so people can mod the game, not so they can get an unfair advantage.
<!--quoteo(post=2048557:date=Dec 20 2012, 10:43 AM:name=Savant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Savant @ Dec 20 2012, 10:43 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2048557"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->First of all, the OPs suggestion - while worded in a way that attracts rude responses - does actually have merit.
The marines don't need more bullets in the LMG since it only takes 10 to kill a skulk. That's all find and dandy but...
<b><!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->This game has more than skulks.<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--></b>
There is a reason why marines have damage upgrades at all, and that is since as the game goes on, the aliens get more powerful and deadly. If it is just a matter of needing enough bullets in a clip to kill a skulk, you could cut the LMG clip in half and still do that. That's not the point.
Let's look at the battles at the top end. As it stands now a skulk can solo an EXO in just 7 seconds. A marine with a weapons 3 LMG?
With 13 points per bullet, if the marine connects with all of his bullets, he'll do 650 points of damage in one clip, which takes about 5 seconds to fire. For that solo marine to kill the Onos with his assault rifle, he'll need to dump FOUR FULL CLIPS of bullets into the Onos, and then 37 of his last 50 bullets. The marine will need to have an accuracy level of 94.8% or greater, since if he misses with more than 13 bullets, he won't have enough bullets in his gun to make the kill. Of course this assumes the marine would still be alive. The amount of time it would take to fire all those bullets would be 25 seconds, plus time to reload between clips. IIRC the reload is a little over 2 seconds, let's call it 2 for sake or argument, that brings this to 33 seconds in total. In that time the Onos would only need to land TWO attacks to kill the marine.
<b>THAT</b> is why we need options like the OP's suggestion in the game. Let the commander have the option to research it. Give it a cost. Options are never a bad thing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
wrong, singular marines should not and do not balance against an onos.
<!--quoteo(post=2048579:date=Dec 20 2012, 01:58 PM:name=MMZ_Torak)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MMZ_Torak @ Dec 20 2012, 01:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2048579"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Next time you are in an EXO, try walking from base to a hive as an EXO alone, and lemme know how far you get. :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->I'm gonna +1 this as well. This echos my experience, as long as the EXO is unsupported by marines with welders.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Exactly. In reality it's not the EXOs that protect the marines, it's the marines that protect the EXO. They are far too fragile to be on the front lines alone.
<!--quoteo(post=2048582:date=Dec 20 2012, 02:14 PM:name=VeNeM)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VeNeM @ Dec 20 2012, 02:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2048582"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->wrong, singular marines should not and do not balance against an onos.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Perhaps you should tell the developers that, since they disagree with you. Unless you know better than they do. They balance EVERY possible pairing, and they have said as such.
<!--quoteo(post=2048580:date=Dec 20 2012, 12:03 PM:name=bongofish)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (bongofish @ Dec 20 2012, 12:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2048580"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So a script that lets someone shoot faster than is possible for a non-aided human isn't cheating? What is it then? It certainly falls under "unfair advantage". If this is how they want things to work, why not make it a setting?
And they certainly should allow servers a setting to disable all scripts so that people who want to know that the playing field is level have some way to enforce this.
Also, pretty sure the scripting is so people can mod the game, not so they can get an unfair advantage.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If the developers wrote the scripting language to allow this, and allowed the scripts to be edited by users and executed in the game, it is not a cheat.
I am not saying that a scripting language could NOT be used in a manner which could be used to gain an advantage, nor am I saying that bugs in the scripting language that may give someone an unfair advantage should be left alone.
I am saying that using a scripting language that ships with the game and is usable by anyone that plays the game is not cheating. Should the developers find that they left something in that gives an unfair advantage, they should remove it (see the capped ROF of the pistol in TF2). Until such a time, or a statement from the developer that this is the case, using a script to do something is not a cheat.
Just because a person does not understand a feature, or doesn't use it, does not make something a cheat. For instance, I only recently learned about the alt fire on the LMG that lets you melee with the LMG. Since I did not know about this functionality before, can I call anyone that uses it a cheat? No. If I don't like it, can I call those that user it cheaters? No.
Now, if the devs remove the LMG alt fire and I find a way to script it back in I am cheating. See the difference?
<!--quoteo(post=2048587:date=Dec 20 2012, 12:23 PM:name=Savant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Savant @ Dec 20 2012, 12:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2048587"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Perhaps you should tell the developers that, since they disagree with you. Unless you know better than they do. They balance EVERY possible pairing, and they have said as such.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
lol it should be obvious that a single marine shouldnt match up well against a 70+ res lifeform, and i have stated this umpteen times. lol
I think clip size is just right, makes for lots of meaningful decisions all game long. Yes it's an eternity to kill an onos and way too easy to solo an exo but those units have all sorts of balance problems that can't and shouldn't be solved this way.
<!--quoteo(post=2048577:date=Dec 20 2012, 10:51 AM:name=Savant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Savant @ Dec 20 2012, 10:51 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2048577"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->First off, not 10 seconds, just a fraction under SEVEN seconds. By comparison, an Onos needs 6 seconds to kill an EXO. That's how powerful a skulk is versus an EXO. It can basically kill the EXO in the same time it takes an Onos to kill an EXO.
If you haven't been soloed by a skulk, then you need to play more time in an EXO and/or in games without all rookies. Seriously, soloing an EXO is easy for a skulk. On two occasions I have killed TWO and lived. I see skulks kill EXOs all the time, at least once a game when EXOs are on the field. It's just a matter of circle-strafe and bite. The EXO points down and fires, but bullet spread and the massive muzzle flash make it awkward at the best of times. Meanwhile the skulk with alien vision on gets a big orange target to chomp with no vision distractions from anything else. Or my favorite, I sit on a wall and chomp the EXO, he looks down, sees no skulk, and is dead before he realizes that I was on a wall or ceiling. Let's put it this way. Next time you are in an EXO, try walking from base to a hive as an EXO <b>alone</b>, and lemme know how far you get. :)
I don't want to get off topic, but seriously, you won't win this argument.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have had skulks try jumping around my exo. It doesn't work so well for them. You have terrible aim if a single skulk kills your exo. If I walked alone to their hive, I would easily make it past the first lone skulk that comes at me.
Using bad players as an example is not a good argument. I have seen onos killed by a single jetpack marine a ton of times. That doesn't happen to a smart player. The onos shouldn't be buffed because of it.
<!--quoteo(post=2048638:date=Dec 20 2012, 11:46 AM:name=lumina)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (lumina @ Dec 20 2012, 11:46 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2048638"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I have had skulks try jumping around my exo. It doesn't work so well for them. You have terrible aim if a single skulk kills your exo. If I walked alone to their hive, I would easily make it past the first lone skulk that comes at me.
Using bad players as an example is not a good argument. I have seen onos killed by a single jetpack marine a ton of times. That doesn't happen to a smart player. The onos shouldn't be buffed because of it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Are you trying to say soloing an exo with a skulk and soloing an onos with a jetpack is comparable in difficulty?
<!--quoteo(post=2048649:date=Dec 20 2012, 01:02 PM:name=nailertn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (nailertn @ Dec 20 2012, 01:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2048649"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Are you trying to say soloing an exo with a skulk and soloing an onos with a jetpack is comparable in difficulty?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Its easier. A solo onos will never touch my solo jetpack. A solo skulk has to show himself to a solo exo who has guns that just need to cross the skulks path once. How exactly is your onos going to kill a marine that he can't get close to? It could take me 20 minutes to take down that onos and the answer would still be yes.
<!--quoteo(post=2048653:date=Dec 20 2012, 12:08 PM:name=lumina)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (lumina @ Dec 20 2012, 12:08 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2048653"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Its easier. A solo onos will never touch my solo jetpack. A solo skulk has to show himself to a solo exo who has guns that just need to cross the skulks path once. How exactly is your onos going to kill a marine that he can't get close to? It could take me 20 minutes to take down that onos and the answer would still be yes.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The LMG doesn't need more than 50 bullets. But I think adding a new weapon that has for instance 100 bullets and 35% slower rate of fire might be an interesting addition to the marine arsenal.
You can try proving me wrong any time. How about some 1v1s where you get skulks and onos and I get jetpacks and exos? We could easily setup these exact scenerios.
<!--quoteo(post=2048599:date=Dec 20 2012, 12:54 PM:name=MMZ_Torak)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MMZ_Torak @ Dec 20 2012, 12:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2048599"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If the developers wrote the scripting language to allow this, and allowed the scripts to be edited by users and executed in the game, it is not a cheat.
I am not saying that a scripting language could NOT be used in a manner which could be used to gain an advantage, nor am I saying that bugs in the scripting language that may give someone an unfair advantage should be left alone.
I am saying that using a scripting language that ships with the game and is usable by anyone that plays the game is not cheating. Should the developers find that they left something in that gives an unfair advantage, they should remove it (see the capped ROF of the pistol in TF2). Until such a time, or a statement from the developer that this is the case, using a script to do something is not a cheat.
Just because a person does not understand a feature, or doesn't use it, does not make something a cheat. For instance, I only recently learned about the alt fire on the LMG that lets you melee with the LMG. Since I did not know about this functionality before, can I call anyone that uses it a cheat? No. If I don't like it, can I call those that user it cheaters? No.
Now, if the devs remove the LMG alt fire and I find a way to script it back in I am cheating. See the difference?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It seems like you have a problem with the term "cheating". Forget I said that and let's just call it an advantage that not all people are aware of.
Regardless of the semantics, I would like to have servers that disable all such advantages so that the people playing can be sure that everyone is using the same tools and that no one has any advantage beyond skill.
Personally I think scripts are lame. I would really like for anyone, in any game, that is using scripts get some kind of visible in game marker so that you would know they were doing it. Might also cut down on the hacking accusations.
I'd be very interested to see if some of these super skilled players that go 40-1 are partially able to achiee those scores because of scripts. I think many of these players would be against it because they don't want you to know they are using them. Harder to brag about your skill when people can tell you're scripting.
<!--quoteo(post=2048604:date=Dec 20 2012, 09:59 AM:name=VeNeM)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VeNeM @ Dec 20 2012, 09:59 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2048604"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->lol it should be obvious that a single marine shouldnt match up well against a 70+ res lifeform, and i have stated this umpteen times. lol<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Then Exo's should insta-kill Skulks in the same way they do to Eggs.
<!--quoteo(post=2048662:date=Dec 20 2012, 02:26 PM:name=bongofish)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (bongofish @ Dec 20 2012, 02:26 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2048662"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Forget I said that and let's just call it an advantage that not all people are aware of.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Okay, see my example of the LMG alt fire.
Your line of reasoning could apply to ANYTHING in the game.
Also, once you become aware of a feature and choose not to use said feature for personal reasons, it is just that. A personal preference. It does not make it some sort of pariah feature that people should be ostracized for using.
I don't think I would get far asking the devs to remove the alt fire on the LMG just because I don't think people should use it.
<!--quoteo(post=2048653:date=Dec 20 2012, 01:08 PM:name=lumina)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (lumina @ Dec 20 2012, 01:08 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2048653"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Its easier. A solo onos will never touch my solo jetpack. A solo skulk has to show himself to a solo exo who has guns that just need to cross the skulks path once. How exactly is your onos going to kill a marine that he can't get close to? It could take me 20 minutes to take down that onos and the answer would still be yes.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Maybe in a large open room like Cargo or Generator but what happens when you encounter an Onos in a hallway?
<!--quoteo(post=2048684:date=Dec 20 2012, 02:09 PM:name=MiniH0wie)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MiniH0wie @ Dec 20 2012, 02:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2048684"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Maybe in a large open room like Cargo or Generator but what happens when you encounter an Onos in a hallway?
Oh wait, you must only travel by ways of the PG.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You go to an open room and don't sit in the hall with an onos in it. If the onos doesn't follow, use your range. I also like to jump into vents and spray the onos until he has to retreat. Then you get out and follow.
Maybe I should state that this is only true if both players are smart. The only way a solo onos can kill a jetpacker is by outsmarting him.
<!--quoteo(post=2048668:date=Dec 20 2012, 08:32 PM:name=MMZ_Torak)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MMZ_Torak @ Dec 20 2012, 08:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2048668"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Okay, see my example of the LMG alt fire.
Your line of reasoning could apply to ANYTHING in the game.
Also, once you become aware of a feature and choose not to use said feature for personal reasons, it is just that. A personal preference. It does not make it some sort of pariah feature that people should be ostracized for using.
I don't think I would get far asking the devs to remove the alt fire on the LMG just because I don't think people should use it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And your line of reasoning could be applied to any bugs / exploit that the devs are unaware of or haven't made a statement about how it's wrong. You ARE reading to much into the word cheating. Regardless how much you want 0.4sec pistol dps to be fair game, it is and will remain an unfair advantage to other players that don't have the necessary knowledge to make such a script as it does NOT come with the box or being applied server side when entering a server.
As far as I can read from your reasoning, you're saying that it's the player that doesn't know about X exploits / script exploit fault that they're not using it, and it's totally fine for you to use it because the devs haven't seen, forbidden or patched it yet.
<!--quoteo(post=2048697:date=Dec 20 2012, 03:27 PM:name=SanCo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SanCo @ Dec 20 2012, 03:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2048697"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And your line of reasoning could be applied to any bugs / exploit that the devs are unaware of or haven't made a statement about how it's wrong. You ARE reading to much into the word cheating. Regardless how much you want 0.4sec pistol dps to be fair game, it is and will remain an unfair advantage to other players that don't have the necessary knowledge to make such a script as it does NOT come with the box or being applied server side when entering a server.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Funny, I don't even use the scripts you imply I use.
I just can't stand the McCarthyism that people like you heap on others. Even those that simply use scripts to rebind keys to a more ergonomic layout.
Comments
And scripting to get the most out of your weapon is a good mechanic?
The marines don't need more bullets in the LMG since it only takes 10 to kill a skulk. That's all find and dandy but...
<b><!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->This game has more than skulks.<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--></b>
There is a reason why marines have damage upgrades at all, and that is since as the game goes on, the aliens get more powerful and deadly. If it is just a matter of needing enough bullets in a clip to kill a skulk, you could cut the LMG clip in half and still do that. That's not the point.
Let's look at the battles at the top end. As it stands now a skulk can solo an EXO in just 7 seconds. A marine with a weapons 3 LMG?
With 13 points per bullet, if the marine connects with all of his bullets, he'll do 650 points of damage in one clip, which takes about 5 seconds to fire. For that solo marine to kill the Onos with his assault rifle, he'll need to dump FOUR FULL CLIPS of bullets into the Onos, and then 37 of his last 50 bullets. The marine will need to have an accuracy level of 94.8% or greater, since if he misses with more than 13 bullets, he won't have enough bullets in his gun to make the kill. Of course this assumes the marine would still be alive. The amount of time it would take to fire all those bullets would be 25 seconds, plus time to reload between clips. IIRC the reload is a little over 2 seconds, let's call it 2 for sake or argument, that brings this to 33 seconds in total. In that time the Onos would only need to land TWO attacks to kill the marine.
<b>THAT</b> is why we need options like the OP's suggestion in the game. Let the commander have the option to research it. Give it a cost. Options are never a bad thing.
I'd love to see more fancy upgrades tho. Increased clip size, grenades, fast-reload, double pistols... Too bad there's already a million res sinks marine side. But still.
Yeah. Isn't scripting cheating? It gives you an ability that the developers did not intend.
It's like that mod someone posted that changes aliens to bright green. Anything not intended by the devs needs to be blocked. Or the servers need to let you know if they allow scripting so that you can avoid those servers when you don't want to play with people who can't play the game the way it was meant to be played.
That said, I wouldn't mind both sides getting more upgrades to research. More upgrades would probably make it harder to balance, but more choices would help bring more variety to games.
If the devs include a scripting language in the engine that is useable by the end user in the game environment, how could it be unintended?
This isn't to say that there may be bugs in the scripting, including things that they did not intend to include; however using this is not cheating. Fixing those bugs will correct the problem.
Making a blanket statement that "scripting is cheating" is like saying using presets on your car radio is cheating because there is a dial you can use to change the station.
If you haven't been soloed by a skulk, then you need to play more time in an EXO and/or in games without all rookies. Seriously, soloing an EXO is easy for a skulk. On two occasions I have killed TWO and lived. I see skulks kill EXOs all the time, at least once a game when EXOs are on the field. It's just a matter of circle-strafe and bite. The EXO points down and fires, but bullet spread and the massive muzzle flash make it awkward at the best of times. Meanwhile the skulk with alien vision on gets a big orange target to chomp with no vision distractions from anything else. Or my favorite, I sit on a wall and chomp the EXO, he looks down, sees no skulk, and is dead before he realizes that I was on a wall or ceiling. Let's put it this way. Next time you are in an EXO, try walking from base to a hive as an EXO <b>alone</b>, and lemme know how far you get. :)
I don't want to get off topic, but seriously, you won't win this argument.
If you haven't been soloed by a skulk, then you need to play more time in an EXO and/or in games without all rookies. Seriously, soloing an EXO is easy for a skulk. On two occasions I have killed TWO and lived. I see skulks kill EXOs all the time, at least once a game when EXOs are on the field. It's just a matter of circle-strafe and bite. The EXO points down and fires, but bullet spread and the massive muzzle flash make it awkward at the best of times. Meanwhile the skulk with alien vision on gets a big orange target to chomp with no vision distractions from anything else. Or my favorite, I sit on a wall and chomp the EXO, he looks down, sees no skulk, and is dead before he realizes that I was on a wall or ceiling. Let's put it this way. Next time you are in an EXO, try walking from base to a hive as an EXO <b>alone</b>, and lemme know how far you get. :)
I don't want to get off topic, but seriously, you won't win this argument.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm gonna +1 this as well. This echos my experience, as long as the EXO is unsupported by marines with welders.
This isn't to say that there may be bugs in the scripting, including things that they did not intend to include; however using this is not cheating. Fixing those bugs will correct the problem.
Making a blanket statement that "scripting is cheating" is like saying using presets on your car radio is cheating because there is a dial you can use to change the station.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So a script that lets someone shoot faster than is possible for a non-aided human isn't cheating? What is it then? It certainly falls under "unfair advantage". If this is how they want things to work, why not make it a setting?
And they certainly should allow servers a setting to disable all scripts so that people who want to know that the playing field is level have some way to enforce this.
Also, pretty sure the scripting is so people can mod the game, not so they can get an unfair advantage.
The marines don't need more bullets in the LMG since it only takes 10 to kill a skulk. That's all find and dandy but...
<b><!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->This game has more than skulks.<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--></b>
There is a reason why marines have damage upgrades at all, and that is since as the game goes on, the aliens get more powerful and deadly. If it is just a matter of needing enough bullets in a clip to kill a skulk, you could cut the LMG clip in half and still do that. That's not the point.
Let's look at the battles at the top end. As it stands now a skulk can solo an EXO in just 7 seconds. A marine with a weapons 3 LMG?
With 13 points per bullet, if the marine connects with all of his bullets, he'll do 650 points of damage in one clip, which takes about 5 seconds to fire. For that solo marine to kill the Onos with his assault rifle, he'll need to dump FOUR FULL CLIPS of bullets into the Onos, and then 37 of his last 50 bullets. The marine will need to have an accuracy level of 94.8% or greater, since if he misses with more than 13 bullets, he won't have enough bullets in his gun to make the kill. Of course this assumes the marine would still be alive. The amount of time it would take to fire all those bullets would be 25 seconds, plus time to reload between clips. IIRC the reload is a little over 2 seconds, let's call it 2 for sake or argument, that brings this to 33 seconds in total. In that time the Onos would only need to land TWO attacks to kill the marine.
<b>THAT</b> is why we need options like the OP's suggestion in the game. Let the commander have the option to research it. Give it a cost. Options are never a bad thing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
wrong, singular marines should not and do not balance against an onos.
And they certainly should allow servers a setting to disable all scripts so that people who want to know that the playing field is level have some way to enforce this.
Also, pretty sure the scripting is so people can mod the game, not so they can get an unfair advantage.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If the developers wrote the scripting language to allow this, and allowed the scripts to be edited by users and executed in the game, it is not a cheat.
I am not saying that a scripting language could NOT be used in a manner which could be used to gain an advantage, nor am I saying that bugs in the scripting language that may give someone an unfair advantage should be left alone.
I am saying that using a scripting language that ships with the game and is usable by anyone that plays the game is not cheating. Should the developers find that they left something in that gives an unfair advantage, they should remove it (see the capped ROF of the pistol in TF2). Until such a time, or a statement from the developer that this is the case, using a script to do something is not a cheat.
Just because a person does not understand a feature, or doesn't use it, does not make something a cheat. For instance, I only recently learned about the alt fire on the LMG that lets you melee with the LMG. Since I did not know about this functionality before, can I call anyone that uses it a cheat? No. If I don't like it, can I call those that user it cheaters? No.
Now, if the devs remove the LMG alt fire and I find a way to script it back in I am cheating. See the difference?
lol it should be obvious that a single marine shouldnt match up well against a 70+ res lifeform, and i have stated this umpteen times. lol
If you haven't been soloed by a skulk, then you need to play more time in an EXO and/or in games without all rookies. Seriously, soloing an EXO is easy for a skulk. On two occasions I have killed TWO and lived. I see skulks kill EXOs all the time, at least once a game when EXOs are on the field. It's just a matter of circle-strafe and bite. The EXO points down and fires, but bullet spread and the massive muzzle flash make it awkward at the best of times. Meanwhile the skulk with alien vision on gets a big orange target to chomp with no vision distractions from anything else. Or my favorite, I sit on a wall and chomp the EXO, he looks down, sees no skulk, and is dead before he realizes that I was on a wall or ceiling. Let's put it this way. Next time you are in an EXO, try walking from base to a hive as an EXO <b>alone</b>, and lemme know how far you get. :)
I don't want to get off topic, but seriously, you won't win this argument.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have had skulks try jumping around my exo. It doesn't work so well for them. You have terrible aim if a single skulk kills your exo. If I walked alone to their hive, I would easily make it past the first lone skulk that comes at me.
Using bad players as an example is not a good argument. I have seen onos killed by a single jetpack marine a ton of times. That doesn't happen to a smart player. The onos shouldn't be buffed because of it.
Using bad players as an example is not a good argument. I have seen onos killed by a single jetpack marine a ton of times. That doesn't happen to a smart player. The onos shouldn't be buffed because of it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Are you trying to say soloing an exo with a skulk and soloing an onos with a jetpack is comparable in difficulty?
Its easier. A solo onos will never touch my solo jetpack. A solo skulk has to show himself to a solo exo who has guns that just need to cross the skulks path once. How exactly is your onos going to kill a marine that he can't get close to? It could take me 20 minutes to take down that onos and the answer would still be yes.
ok dude
You can try proving me wrong any time. How about some 1v1s where you get skulks and onos and I get jetpacks and exos? We could easily setup these exact scenerios.
I am not saying that a scripting language could NOT be used in a manner which could be used to gain an advantage, nor am I saying that bugs in the scripting language that may give someone an unfair advantage should be left alone.
I am saying that using a scripting language that ships with the game and is usable by anyone that plays the game is not cheating. Should the developers find that they left something in that gives an unfair advantage, they should remove it (see the capped ROF of the pistol in TF2). Until such a time, or a statement from the developer that this is the case, using a script to do something is not a cheat.
Just because a person does not understand a feature, or doesn't use it, does not make something a cheat. For instance, I only recently learned about the alt fire on the LMG that lets you melee with the LMG. Since I did not know about this functionality before, can I call anyone that uses it a cheat? No. If I don't like it, can I call those that user it cheaters? No.
Now, if the devs remove the LMG alt fire and I find a way to script it back in I am cheating. See the difference?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It seems like you have a problem with the term "cheating". Forget I said that and let's just call it an advantage that not all people are aware of.
Regardless of the semantics, I would like to have servers that disable all such advantages so that the people playing can be sure that everyone is using the same tools and that no one has any advantage beyond skill.
Personally I think scripts are lame. I would really like for anyone, in any game, that is using scripts get some kind of visible in game marker so that you would know they were doing it. Might also cut down on the hacking accusations.
I'd be very interested to see if some of these super skilled players that go 40-1 are partially able to achiee those scores because of scripts. I think many of these players would be against it because they don't want you to know they are using them. Harder to brag about your skill when people can tell you're scripting.
Then Exo's should insta-kill Skulks in the same way they do to Eggs.
Okay, see my example of the LMG alt fire.
Your line of reasoning could apply to ANYTHING in the game.
Also, once you become aware of a feature and choose not to use said feature for personal reasons, it is just that. A personal preference. It does not make it some sort of pariah feature that people should be ostracized for using.
I don't think I would get far asking the devs to remove the alt fire on the LMG just because I don't think people should use it.
Maybe in a large open room like Cargo or Generator but what happens when you encounter an Onos in a hallway?
Oh wait, you must only travel by ways of the PG.
Oh wait, you must only travel by ways of the PG.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You go to an open room and don't sit in the hall with an onos in it. If the onos doesn't follow, use your range. I also like to jump into vents and spray the onos until he has to retreat. Then you get out and follow.
Maybe I should state that this is only true if both players are smart. The only way a solo onos can kill a jetpacker is by outsmarting him.
Also if a 50 clip isn't doing it for you 20 more rounds probably won't matter
Your line of reasoning could apply to ANYTHING in the game.
Also, once you become aware of a feature and choose not to use said feature for personal reasons, it is just that. A personal preference. It does not make it some sort of pariah feature that people should be ostracized for using.
I don't think I would get far asking the devs to remove the alt fire on the LMG just because I don't think people should use it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And your line of reasoning could be applied to any bugs / exploit that the devs are unaware of or haven't made a statement about how it's wrong. You ARE reading to much into the word cheating. Regardless how much you want 0.4sec pistol dps to be fair game, it is and will remain an unfair advantage to other players that don't have the necessary knowledge to make such a script as it does NOT come with the box or being applied server side when entering a server.
As far as I can read from your reasoning, you're saying that it's the player that doesn't know about X exploits / script exploit fault that they're not using it, and it's totally fine for you to use it because the devs haven't seen, forbidden or patched it yet.
Funny, I don't even use the scripts you imply I use.
I just can't stand the McCarthyism that people like you heap on others. Even those that simply use scripts to rebind keys to a more ergonomic layout.