rifle needs to be an area of effect weapon that stacks with more marines in close proximity and gets damage multiplier by shining your flashlight on targets imo
Now that would be some next level immersive ######.
I knew this post would go all over the place asnd most of what I was saying would be lost.
First off, as I said, this post is not about me. I get at least a 1.0 K/D ratio as marine every time I play. I have been playing non-stop for a month or more now. I can go toe-to-toe with any of you on this forum regarding skill, what to do, what not to do, how to win, etc....
My point is from a new player point of view, who almost always plays marine, he is getting ripped apart, by skulks, literally, every game. There have been numerous posts on this forum saying aliens are winning games upwards of 66% of the time, rookie or not. I don't know where they get the stats but if they are true, the game is already broken. It needs balance work. And this thread is along those lines, the marines are getting smoked early game far too often. I agree that once they get jetpacks, some weapon/armor upgrades, etc... its a different game and I like it. I don't think that needs to change in any way.
People tell me to not change the game to support rookies who just need to learn. I agree with that. As long as the learning curve is equally steep whether you play marine or alien. It is not. Rookie marines succumb to base rush and go down far easier than a rookie alien team. People say aliens are just as hard to play as marines when new. I don't agree with that either. Random, crazy jumping around like a lunatic when you only need to land one or two bites is easier than having to deal with trying to hit someone doing that and you are new.
Sorry but no. Unless you have learnt how to wallrun in other games, many people will be terrible skulks. These skulks are easy to shoot when playing marine on rookie servers, giving no challenge whatsoever.
Skulk has a different learning curve because of its mechanics, but i hardly think its easier to be a skulk that relies on a close ranged melee weapon and odd movement mechanics (to some) over a marine with a ranged, hitscan, no recoil weapon.
The reasons marines are losing is because being a marine commander is ######ing hard. And with two equally terrible commanders, alien will come out on top for a variety of reasons.
IDK about making it more rookie friendly, but I had my brother playing this game and he never played NS1. He totally sucked on NS2 but it just takes practice and a lot of playing. He's a decent player and was totally dread awful when he started playing, but now he enjoys the game and gets a good k/d ratio
For people who want to run and gun no scope snipe, this is not a game for them. By homoginizing the game would make it a lot like the othergames out there, which is bad.. This game automaticly removes rookie tag after 4 hours. It takes a lot longer than that to get a basic knowledge of the game. Also by going only marine you limit yourselves. Having a rookie go gorge can do a lot for the team. I teach people alien first as a gorge so they can learn the basics. This will allow you to help your team as the gorge will be bust for a few minutes building a hive. Then let them go onos end game so they can play the two easiest classes in the game.
Also finding a good server is also key, though knowing some of my friends, they are better off playing cod or halo. Don't get mad at the game if it is not their cup of tea
when i started to play q3 rocket arena i got demolished.. ass raped as no one was ever before. But after several months i was able to beat those same guys. Or the old UT, u visit a friends lan party borrow a seat for a few minutes and completly own everyone... same for old cs where all guys joined the same team to play against one single guy and he still wins. This are games, this is fun.
Those games today mostly dont have real skills needed anymore... anyone can beat anyone, luck everywhere - its a curse. Its boring. Yet kids love it, god knows why.
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=2053756:date=Dec 31 2012, 05:31 PM:name=KilledByDeath)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KilledByDeath @ Dec 31 2012, 05:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2053756"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Games that ignore the "lowest common denominator" also tend to crash harder then a led airship. This whole attitude about NS2 being some super secret club where only the chosen few get to enjoy it is pretty horrible and will get this game's community now where fast.
I've seen too many games where the community is smug as ###### with the "lol go back to CoD" and then a few months later crying about how it takes 20 minutes to find a full server.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Nah, the NS community is much nicer in general then any other community I've seen... Teamplay games tend to have this effect...
Thats a good point. The rookie tag is removed far too early. I have only some 20 odd hours in game, but i still think I should have the tag until at least 35 hours of gametime.
Maybe the devs should increase how long it is before that status is removed? It is annoying now that my rookie tag is gone, people automatically assume i know the ins and outs of the game simply because I have a clan tag in my gaming name.
<!--quoteo(post=2053756:date=Dec 31 2012, 12:31 PM:name=KilledByDeath)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KilledByDeath @ Dec 31 2012, 12:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2053756"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Games that ignore the "lowest common denominator" also tend to crash harder then a led airship. This whole attitude about NS2 being some super secret club where only the chosen few get to enjoy it is pretty horrible and will get this game's community now where fast.
I've seen too many games where the community is smug as ###### with the "lol go back to CoD" and then a few months later crying about how it takes 20 minutes to find a full server.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is the concern I have. People are all different, some more patient than others. Some are willing to put in the X number of hours to not suck at it more than others. I put in the effort like most of you. But there many people that will not. There are alot of empty servers out there now. And having the ignorant close-minded attitude that you just need to go back and play CoD is not going to keep this game going.
Balance changes can be made to make it less easy for a rookie marine team to not get blown out early game AND STILL NOT BREAK THE GAME FOR COMPETENT PLAYERS. You cannot make an argument against this. There are too many ways this can be achieved. I listed a few that came to my head and people systematically tore them apart. To think the problem can be solved with one little tweak to marines and not have to change other apspects is probably not going to work and I never said my ideas were ALL that has to change.
The point is this: New players should not feel that they are hopelessly getting blown out like they do on a new marine team. New players SHOULD lose over experienced ones, alien or marine, but not in 2 minutes like what I see so often.
<!--quoteo(post=2053779:date=Dec 31 2012, 10:00 AM:name=Deathbane)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Deathbane @ Dec 31 2012, 10:00 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2053779"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Thats a good point. The rookie tag is removed far too early. I have only some 20 odd hours in game, but i still think I should have the tag until at least 35 hours of gametime.
Maybe the devs should increase how long it is before that status is removed? It is annoying now that my rookie tag is gone, people automatically assume i know the ins and outs of the game simply because I have a clan tag in my gaming name.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It also pisses us seasoned vets off because when we see a rookie tag, we know what to expect. We have a lot less paitence for people who arent green.
<!--quoteo(post=2053731:date=Dec 31 2012, 08:19 AM:name=Mestaritonttu)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mestaritonttu @ Dec 31 2012, 08:19 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2053731"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Take note: balance at release WAS FINE despite an influx of new players.
Why is that?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> it wasn't fine
<!--quoteo(post=2053756:date=Dec 31 2012, 12:31 PM:name=KilledByDeath)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KilledByDeath @ Dec 31 2012, 12:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2053756"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Games that ignore the "lowest common denominator" also tend to crash harder then a led airship. This whole attitude about NS2 being some super secret club where only the chosen few get to enjoy it is pretty horrible and will get this game's community now where fast.
I've seen too many games where the community is smug as ###### with the "lol go back to CoD" and then a few months later crying about how it takes 20 minutes to find a full server.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
thats such bs, only shallow games that become stagnant have that problem. look at CS, i mean come the F on man, look at the elitism that goes on there, and look how large their playerbase is.
a fair comparison would be (only game ive played that is in the same situation) company of heroes OF
their community is totally non nub friendly (the players not the devs OR game). youll get kicked instantly out of game lobbies for not being a high level. and if you dont your teamates will scream at you the entire round even though you can clearly see what level a player is before the game starts. NS2 for the most part doesnt have that problem. we have one of the most easy going communities there is regarding nubs. the problem is most casual gamers dont want deep gameplay. they want "go here, capture this, dont die" mix and repeat. casual gamers dont want "capture and hold area so commander can tech up team" "you will not get new toys for the next 5-6 minutes and you may die a lot due to the skill of the other player". This is the nature of NS. this is what the appeal of combat was. you could spawn, shoot something and tech up on your own. this has absolutely 0 to do with "how smug the community is" because every community has its fair share of asshats.
<!--quoteo(post=2053785:date=Dec 31 2012, 10:07 AM:name=Squishpoke)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squishpoke @ Dec 31 2012, 10:07 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2053785"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Rookies need to L2P, not get free hand outs for their incompetence.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This attitude is exactly what UK and this community do not need. This isn't the MCAT or a competitive exam, it's a game where you WANT people to have the best experience possible in the spirit of nourishing a healthy community. L2p indeed.
<!--quoteo(post=2053796:date=Dec 31 2012, 11:28 AM:name=Jowjow)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jowjow @ Dec 31 2012, 11:28 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2053796"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This attitude is exactly what UK and this community do not need. This isn't the MCAT or a competitive exam, it's a game where you WANT people to have the best experience possible in the spirit of nourishing a healthy community. L2p indeed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Im down with this guy. New players, including myself, do need to learn to play especially the RTS mechanics that are present.
Being a ###### to them though wont help them learn and continue playing, not every new player is an entitled asshat. Even with only 20 odd hours of gametime i can be of help to other new players, and i do my best as i WANT the game to have longevity.
<!--quoteo(post=2053780:date=Dec 31 2012, 01:02 PM:name=MrChoke)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MrChoke @ Dec 31 2012, 01:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2053780"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is the concern I have. People are all different, some more patient than others. Some are willing to put in the X number of hours to not suck at it more than others. I put in the effort like most of you. But there many people that will not. There are alot of empty servers out there now. And having the ignorant close-minded attitude that you just need to go back and play CoD is not going to keep this game going.
Balance changes can be made to make it less easy for a rookie marine team to not get blown out early game AND STILL NOT BREAK THE GAME FOR COMPETENT PLAYERS. You cannot make an argument against this. There are too many ways this can be achieved. I listed a few that came to my head and people systematically tore them apart. To think the problem can be solved with one little tweak to marines and not have to change other apspects is probably not going to work and I never said my ideas were ALL that has to change.
The point is this: New players should not feel that they are hopelessly getting blown out like they do on a new marine team. New players SHOULD lose over experienced ones, alien or marine, but not in 2 minutes like what I see so often.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Balance changes shouldn't be used to achieve this goal, because they would completely break the game. It's like if someone said <b>"My friend doesn't understand tanking in League of Legends -- give tank champions 50% more hitpoints so new players aren't as likely to stop playing."</b>
What can be done (the low-hanging fruit the games industry has already figured out): <b>1. Killer Cam replays (TF2, CoD). </b> So the bad skulk realizes "Oh...I walked straight towards him. Of course he landed every bullet, I was super easy to hit!"
<b>2. "On the bright side you killed more skulks (5) this life than your previous best (1)!" (TF2) </b>Track stats and trumpet the player's best accomplishments upon player death.
<b>3. Amp up positive accomplishments. </b>When the player gets score for killing something or destroying a resource nozzle, make it more celebratory. Not a lot is required -- I've heard a lot of players praise the simple system Planetside 2 uses where a bunch of factors like killstreaks add to your score in successive announcements. <i>Really </i>amp up correct behavior! So after axing a Harvest I might see: Harvester Killed! (+15) Hack it off bonus! (+5) (for 80% of my damage to the structure coming from my Hatchet.) Harvest killstreak x2! (+10) (structure killstreaks would likely be tracked in terms of "in the last 10 minutes" rather than per life.)
Basically set up all sorts of score factors which server to both make the game more exciting and drive desired new player behavior.
<b>4. Make personal resources clearer.</b> Establish a drive for new players to increase extractor count because they see "+0.15 resources (2 extractors)" in the ticker and it lasts long enough to actually read it.
<b>5. Figure out a way of communicating how many resources the enemy has, or how often your team has attacked.</b> This is the more open-ended, harder problem to solve. Basically devise a completely new system which helps players understand the value of constantly attacking.
Maybe this comes in the form of "idle seconds" or something. In the back of my mind if I'm at a forward tech point asking the commander for a rez node and he doesn't place it after 10 seconds I'm thinking "######, that's like half a dead enemy harvester I could've killed if I had kept moving forward." I wonder if there's a metric of some kind that can be measured to help new players (especially marines but also kharaa) understand how incredibly ineffective they're being by idling. It's better to err on the side of considering too many activities "idle" than not enough -- after all, players will eventually figure it out for themselves that there are times when it's genuinely worthwhile to sit in base defending so your team doesn't have to beacon. They'll figure out when it's the right time to ambush as a skulk, compared with aggressively attacking. But right now players (new ones especially) are staggeringly bad at understanding how bad it is to not be constantly pressuring the enemy, and something should probably be done.
<!--quoteo(post=2053799:date=Dec 31 2012, 10:31 AM:name=Deathbane)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Deathbane @ Dec 31 2012, 10:31 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2053799"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Im down with this guy. New players, including myself, do need to learn to play especially the RTS mechanics that are present.
Being a ###### to them though wont help them learn and continue playing, not every new player is an entitled asshat. Even with only 20 odd hours of gametime i can be of help to other new players, and i do my best as i WANT the game to have longevity.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not being an ass, its just an issue of learning how to play. The best thing to fix that is *gasp* actively playing and "L2P".
I started out the game as a newbie just like anyone else. This game isn't <i>that</i> difficult to grasp.
<!--quoteo(post=2053722:date=Dec 31 2012, 11:10 AM:name=piratedave)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (piratedave @ Dec 31 2012, 11:10 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2053722"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->this is also an admin problem
i joined a rookie server a few hours ago with my friend and what i saw was blatant pub stomping by 2 skilled alien players (they had clan tags too -_-).
Theres also RAMPANT team stacking going on in just about every server.
NS1 had these issues, and NS2 seems to be worse -_- Just what are rookie servers for anyway ? They just seem to be pub stomping grounds and thats it, i hardly see anyone else trying to help noobs .... Admins should start policing their rookie servers and kick/ban these people, They arent helping anyone, they are enjoying owning these new players and what we are left with are new players thinking "balance is horrible" "Ns2 is rife with hackers" "NS2 is not fun"<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=126317" target="_blank"> No, no.. I was TOLD sooo many times this was a GOOD thing... and that these rookies NEEDED to play against these types of players so they could "improve" their skill... </a>
So these "pub stomps" are just simply "learning grounds", it's not rape.. It's education...
It's always the little things people miss. Like spamming jump constantly (both sides) or pressing C every 2 seconds (both sides). People need basic combat tutorials, it's easy enough to ask how to get a shotgun.
I wonder. Does the problem lie at the surface, with many players being fed up with simply not being able to aim effectively at fast moving targets, or knowing how to avoid a quick death? Or is it deeper than that, and the true issue lies with strategical positioning and problems related more to the meta game than the immediately obvious FPS game.
If it is more of a surface level problem, with players needing to get used to the FPS portion of the game, then this is definitely something the devs can address. Combat mode has the great characteristic of being enjoyable for both new and veteran players alike. I think the devs should really take the combat mode more seriously, and bring it on board as an "official" "mod" (ie, the game can change from co to ns without restarting the server, as ns1 did). I think a noob friendly combat mode should probably start all players off with 2 upgrade points though, so players don't feel like they aren't teching up at all because they keep dying.
If its a meta game thing, I think only the players themselves can solve that problem, both new and veteran alike. New players have to actually want to learn the strategy behind the game. You cannot force information into someone's head. You can make it more easily accessible I suppose, but NS isn't a game where you can simply make all relevant information to the current situation visible on the players screen. You can only have so many on screen tips, and they can only go so far. Veteran players unfortunately also need to understand that its more important to have a fun game, than to win a game. Commanders especially need to learn how to command reactively. If the aliens have one hive and one resource tower, and no upgrades yet, maybe you don't really need to push for that third level gun upgrade. Just cleared out the marine's second last tech point? Maybe you don't need stomp in order to end this game. Contrary to popular belief, it isn't always better to end a game quickly and decisively in order to start a new, better one. Mainly because quite often, a stomp empties a server.
<!--quoteo(post=2053756:date=Dec 31 2012, 11:31 AM:name=KilledByDeath)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KilledByDeath @ Dec 31 2012, 11:31 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2053756"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Games that ignore the "lowest common denominator" also tend to crash harder then a led airship. This whole attitude about NS2 being some super secret club where only the chosen few get to enjoy it is pretty horrible and will get this game's community now where fast.
I've seen too many games where the community is smug as ###### with the "lol go back to CoD" and then a few months later crying about how it takes 20 minutes to find a full server.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Guess what, NS1 was extremely successful, and it wasn't because it catered to the downies. It was because it provided a game with a very high skill ceiling that was unattainable by most, it gave people something to work and strive for, it fostered teamwork, because without it, you die. The very title of this game is reflective of the attitude it has towards the lowest common denominator. Only the strong survive. If you can't be bothered to learn to play properly, or you dislike the way the game is played, LEAVE. This isn't the game for you if you want to hop into a server and play nuketown for 15 minutes. This is a game for strategy, skill, and teamwork. If you are unable or unwilling to play this game for what it is, instead of trying to change it into something you want, then it isn't for you. This community will persist with or without people like you. It has for 10 years and will continue to.
You identified the problem being new players having a bias for the marine team, your suggested solution is across the board buffs for the marines. Do you really not see how this will create even bigger problems?
If the problem is new players only wanting to play marines then that is what the devs should try to address not just resorting to breaking the balance of the game.
<!--quoteo(post=2053756:date=Dec 31 2012, 07:31 PM:name=KilledByDeath)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KilledByDeath @ Dec 31 2012, 07:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2053756"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Games that ignore the "lowest common denominator" also tend to crash harder then a led airship. This whole attitude about NS2 being some super secret club where only the chosen few get to enjoy it is pretty horrible and will get this game's community now where fast.
I've seen too many games where the community is smug as ###### with the "lol go back to CoD" and then a few months later crying about how it takes 20 minutes to find a full server.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
NS is in a difficult position. The key to its innovation and novelty is the in depth strategy that is required to play it properly. Now, in an ideal world, the person who goes commander would under take all the strategic tasks required by the team, and allow the FPS players to simply do their FPS thing. Unfortunately this is not the case in NS. It is the case with the alien commander, which I think is a small part of why aliens are so damn powerful. However it is so far from the case for marines that its scary. The commander relies so heavily on his marines that essentially, in order to be fully effective, every marine player needs to be like a mini commander, and have a pretty good idea of what's going on and what needs to be done.
As I said, they managed to bypass this largely for the alien team, but I don't think it will happen for the marine team, without them losing what it means to be the marine team. I'm sure this is a solution, but it isn't an easy one to figure out at all.
Amazing how not one person seems to agree with me when I ask the simple question "Can't the game be modified a bit so that a new marine team does not get completely wiped in 2 minutes so easily". Does that sound like I am asked the game to be dumbed down or be so noob friendly that the strategy is removed, the skills required are removed. I like how this game is not easy and how it has a lot of strategy. I didn't mind sucking at it for many hours until I learned. I don't want another CoD either. But aliens win too much overall (66% right?) and I wonder how many of the games they win, they win by base rushing like this againast a new marine team. If the marine team is new and the alien team is not, the marines should lose, every time. But horribly in 2 minutes, time and time again? It doesn't seem this an enormous change to make it a bit more forgiving early on.
<!--quoteo(post=2053834:date=Dec 31 2012, 02:57 PM:name=MrChoke)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MrChoke @ Dec 31 2012, 02:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2053834"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Amazing how not one person seems to agree with me when I ask the simple question "Can't the game be modified a bit so that a new marine team does not get completely wiped in 2 minutes so easily".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You do realize that aliens can also lose within 2 minutes right? Now I am no expert when it comes to balancing a game, but it seems to me like all of your suggestions comes down to, "buff the marines." Some of them don't even make sense and makes it seem like you are simply ranting. How is a bigger clip going to help if you are dying in 0.5 seconds as you claimed? I doubt that's the way to go about balancing a game.
<!--quoteo(post=2053834:date=Dec 31 2012, 01:57 PM:name=MrChoke)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MrChoke @ Dec 31 2012, 01:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2053834"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Amazing how not one person seems to agree with me when I ask the simple question "Can't the game be modified a bit so that a new marine team does not get completely wiped in 2 minutes so easily". Does that sound like I am asked the game to be dumbed down or be so noob friendly that the strategy is removed, the skills required are removed. I like how this game is not easy and how it has a lot of strategy. I didn't mind sucking at it for many hours until I learned. I don't want another CoD either. But aliens win too much overall (66% right?) and I wonder how many of the games they win, they win by base rushing like this againast a new marine team. If the marine team is new and the alien team is not, the marines should lose, every time. But horribly in 2 minutes, time and time again? It doesn't seem this an enormous change to make it a bit more forgiving early on.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It isn't amazing it's common sense. If your teams losing and getting wiped out in two minutes, I'm sorry, but that isn't a balance issue. You're either playing a 2v2-3v3 game or your team is awful and in the case of a bad team, well, bad teams should lose. If aliens win more often than not in public games, that seems about right. Why? because this game is balanced asymmetrically, meaning, the commander has more responsibilities and the marines are stronger in one on one fights. Thus, the aliens get the advantage of quickly spreading across the map. If your team can't be bothered to kill cysts and deny area, then yeah, you lose, and deserve it. That's why they win more in pubs, because they have less responsibility and can spread and cover ground easier. Marines need phase tech to be territory aggressive. It boils down to marines having the technology to kill quickly from a distance, and the aliens having the ability to kill silently and spread quickly.
<!--quoteo(post=2053834:date=Dec 31 2012, 09:57 PM:name=MrChoke)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MrChoke @ Dec 31 2012, 09:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2053834"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Amazing how not one person seems to agree with me when I ask the simple question "Can't the game be modified a bit so that a new marine team does not get completely wiped in 2 minutes so easily".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The problem is that the marines are very powerful early game, and indeed up to around the 8-10 minute mark. Very powerful indeed, potentially more powerful than the aliens can handle. The issue comes in not due to individual marine power, but due to tactical imbalances. The aliens can afford to constantly rush marine spawn, forcing marines to defend indefinitely, while the alien commander expands without the need of players to assist.
Increasing a marines combat potency would make marine/skulk combat intensely unsatisfying for both parties. A more in depth and complex solution may be required.
Aliens do win small games, unless marines skill can overcome aliens comm ability.
We had an issue on our server where less skilled players would flood marine team forcing all the good players on aliens. They started to complain and we told them to go random and stop puttimg us in that position. They then listend and the games got more balanced.
I play on a regular server with a lot of regular people. We get a lot of rookies asking how to favorite our server. It also could be the server you are on.
another problem is that even when you get an experienced com, most new players dont listen to em. they run off to die constantly with the other lemmings.
The biggest problem with NS2 is that it's designed to be completely unfriendly to new players. The Alien faction requires a lot of playtime to get accustomed to and players have a tendency to follow the path of least resistance. What usually happens is that they go with what is most familiar (Marines) and get steamrolled when everyone with a tiny bit of experience join the Alien team. Whenever they do join the Alien team to try something new, they get wrecked...hard.
This game kind of reminds me of SMNC except that game has a much higher skill curve. Completely unfriendly to newbies and guess where that game is now?
I'm sure NS2 will retain a small community of players in the end once UWE has milked this cow dry. Maybe they will make a more skill-friendly NS3 somewhere down the road where players of all skill levels can enjoy a good time. I used to play Savage and Savage 2 a few years ago and can honestly say I sucked at both games. I wasn't good with the melee combat regardless of the amount of time I spent on these games, yet I kept coming back to it. Why? Because the game offered me other things to do besides combat that is helpful to the team AND is fun.
NS2 does not have that FUN alternative to combat and is one of the biggest downfalls of the game in my opinion. This is a game that masquerades as a FPS/RTS hybrid, but is no more than a glorified TDM with asymmetric teams. Well of course one can't forget the terribad performance of both the game and the servers. 3 Tickrate FTW!
Comments
Now that would be some next level immersive ######.
First off, as I said, this post is not about me. I get at least a 1.0 K/D ratio as marine every time I play. I have been playing non-stop for a month or more now. I can go toe-to-toe with any of you on this forum regarding skill, what to do, what not to do, how to win, etc....
My point is from a new player point of view, who almost always plays marine, he is getting ripped apart, by skulks, literally, every game. There have been numerous posts on this forum saying aliens are winning games upwards of 66% of the time, rookie or not. I don't know where they get the stats but if they are true, the game is already broken. It needs balance work. And this thread is along those lines, the marines are getting smoked early game far too often. I agree that once they get jetpacks, some weapon/armor upgrades, etc... its a different game and I like it. I don't think that needs to change in any way.
People tell me to not change the game to support rookies who just need to learn. I agree with that. As long as the learning curve is equally steep whether you play marine or alien. It is not. Rookie marines succumb to base rush and go down far easier than a rookie alien team. People say aliens are just as hard to play as marines when new. I don't agree with that either. Random, crazy jumping around like a lunatic when you only need to land one or two bites is easier than having to deal with trying to hit someone doing that and you are new.
Skulk has a different learning curve because of its mechanics, but i hardly think its easier to be a skulk that relies on a close ranged melee weapon and odd movement mechanics (to some) over a marine with a ranged, hitscan, no recoil weapon.
The reasons marines are losing is because being a marine commander is ######ing hard. And with two equally terrible commanders, alien will come out on top for a variety of reasons.
Also finding a good server is also key, though knowing some of my friends, they are better off playing cod or halo. Don't get mad at the game if it is not their cup of tea
when i started to play q3 rocket arena i got demolished.. ass raped as no one was ever before.
But after several months i was able to beat those same guys.
Or the old UT, u visit a friends lan party borrow a seat for a few minutes and completly own everyone... same for old cs where all guys joined the same team to play against one single guy and he still wins. This are games, this is fun.
Those games today mostly dont have real skills needed anymore... anyone can beat anyone, luck everywhere - its a curse. Its boring. Yet kids love it, god knows why.
I've seen too many games where the community is smug as ###### with the "lol go back to CoD" and then a few months later crying about how it takes 20 minutes to find a full server.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nah, the NS community is much nicer in general then any other community I've seen... Teamplay games tend to have this effect...
Maybe the devs should increase how long it is before that status is removed? It is annoying now that my rookie tag is gone, people automatically assume i know the ins and outs of the game simply because I have a clan tag in my gaming name.
I've seen too many games where the community is smug as ###### with the "lol go back to CoD" and then a few months later crying about how it takes 20 minutes to find a full server.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is the concern I have. People are all different, some more patient than others. Some are willing to put in the X number of hours to not suck at it more than others. I put in the effort like most of you. But there many people that will not. There are alot of empty servers out there now. And having the ignorant close-minded attitude that you just need to go back and play CoD is not going to keep this game going.
Balance changes can be made to make it less easy for a rookie marine team to not get blown out early game AND STILL NOT BREAK THE GAME FOR COMPETENT PLAYERS. You cannot make an argument against this. There are too many ways this can be achieved. I listed a few that came to my head and people systematically tore them apart. To think the problem can be solved with one little tweak to marines and not have to change other apspects is probably not going to work and I never said my ideas were ALL that has to change.
The point is this: New players should not feel that they are hopelessly getting blown out like they do on a new marine team. New players SHOULD lose over experienced ones, alien or marine, but not in 2 minutes like what I see so often.
Maybe the devs should increase how long it is before that status is removed? It is annoying now that my rookie tag is gone, people automatically assume i know the ins and outs of the game simply because I have a clan tag in my gaming name.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It also pisses us seasoned vets off because when we see a rookie tag, we know what to expect. We have a lot less paitence for people who arent green.
The tag should only be removed manually!!!
Why is that?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
it wasn't fine
I've seen too many games where the community is smug as ###### with the "lol go back to CoD" and then a few months later crying about how it takes 20 minutes to find a full server.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
thats such bs, only shallow games that become stagnant have that problem. look at CS, i mean come the F on man, look at the elitism that goes on there, and look how large their playerbase is.
a fair comparison would be (only game ive played that is in the same situation) company of heroes OF
their community is totally non nub friendly (the players not the devs OR game). youll get kicked instantly out of game lobbies for not being a high level. and if you dont your teamates will scream at you the entire round even though you can clearly see what level a player is before the game starts. NS2 for the most part doesnt have that problem. we have one of the most easy going communities there is regarding nubs. the problem is most casual gamers dont want deep gameplay. they want "go here, capture this, dont die" mix and repeat. casual gamers dont want "capture and hold area so commander can tech up team" "you will not get new toys for the next 5-6 minutes and you may die a lot due to the skill of the other player". This is the nature of NS. this is what the appeal of combat was. you could spawn, shoot something and tech up on your own. this has absolutely 0 to do with "how smug the community is" because every community has its fair share of asshats.
This attitude is exactly what UK and this community do not need. This isn't the MCAT or a competitive exam, it's a game where you WANT people to have the best experience possible in the spirit of nourishing a healthy community. L2p indeed.
Im down with this guy. New players, including myself, do need to learn to play especially the RTS mechanics that are present.
Being a ###### to them though wont help them learn and continue playing, not every new player is an entitled asshat. Even with only 20 odd hours of gametime i can be of help to other new players, and i do my best as i WANT the game to have longevity.
Balance changes can be made to make it less easy for a rookie marine team to not get blown out early game AND STILL NOT BREAK THE GAME FOR COMPETENT PLAYERS. You cannot make an argument against this. There are too many ways this can be achieved. I listed a few that came to my head and people systematically tore them apart. To think the problem can be solved with one little tweak to marines and not have to change other apspects is probably not going to work and I never said my ideas were ALL that has to change.
The point is this: New players should not feel that they are hopelessly getting blown out like they do on a new marine team. New players SHOULD lose over experienced ones, alien or marine, but not in 2 minutes like what I see so often.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Balance changes shouldn't be used to achieve this goal, because they would completely break the game. It's like if someone said <b>"My friend doesn't understand tanking in League of Legends -- give tank champions 50% more hitpoints so new players aren't as likely to stop playing."</b>
What can be done (the low-hanging fruit the games industry has already figured out):
<b>1. Killer Cam replays (TF2, CoD). </b> So the bad skulk realizes "Oh...I walked straight towards him. Of course he landed every bullet, I was super easy to hit!"
<b>2. "On the bright side you killed more skulks (5) this life than your previous best (1)!" (TF2) </b>Track stats and trumpet the player's best accomplishments upon player death.
<b>3. Amp up positive accomplishments. </b>When the player gets score for killing something or destroying a resource nozzle, make it more celebratory. Not a lot is required -- I've heard a lot of players praise the simple system Planetside 2 uses where a bunch of factors like killstreaks add to your score in successive announcements. <i>Really </i>amp up correct behavior! So after axing a Harvest I might see:
Harvester Killed! (+15)
Hack it off bonus! (+5) (for 80% of my damage to the structure coming from my Hatchet.)
Harvest killstreak x2! (+10) (structure killstreaks would likely be tracked in terms of "in the last 10 minutes" rather than per life.)
Basically set up all sorts of score factors which server to both make the game more exciting and drive desired new player behavior.
<b>4. Make personal resources clearer.</b> Establish a drive for new players to increase extractor count because they see "+0.15 resources (2 extractors)" in the ticker and it lasts long enough to actually read it.
<b>5. Figure out a way of communicating how many resources the enemy has, or how often your team has attacked.</b> This is the more open-ended, harder problem to solve. Basically devise a completely new system which helps players understand the value of constantly attacking.
Maybe this comes in the form of "idle seconds" or something. In the back of my mind if I'm at a forward tech point asking the commander for a rez node and he doesn't place it after 10 seconds I'm thinking "######, that's like half a dead enemy harvester I could've killed if I had kept moving forward." I wonder if there's a metric of some kind that can be measured to help new players (especially marines but also kharaa) understand how incredibly ineffective they're being by idling. It's better to err on the side of considering too many activities "idle" than not enough -- after all, players will eventually figure it out for themselves that there are times when it's genuinely worthwhile to sit in base defending so your team doesn't have to beacon. They'll figure out when it's the right time to ambush as a skulk, compared with aggressively attacking. But right now players (new ones especially) are staggeringly bad at understanding how bad it is to not be constantly pressuring the enemy, and something should probably be done.
Being a ###### to them though wont help them learn and continue playing, not every new player is an entitled asshat. Even with only 20 odd hours of gametime i can be of help to other new players, and i do my best as i WANT the game to have longevity.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not being an ass, its just an issue of learning how to play. The best thing to fix that is *gasp* actively playing and "L2P".
I started out the game as a newbie just like anyone else. This game isn't <i>that</i> difficult to grasp.
i joined a rookie server a few hours ago with my friend and what i saw was blatant pub stomping by 2 skilled alien players (they had clan tags too -_-).
Theres also RAMPANT team stacking going on in just about every server.
NS1 had these issues, and NS2 seems to be worse -_- Just what are rookie servers for anyway ? They just seem to be pub stomping grounds and thats it, i hardly see anyone else trying to help noobs .... Admins should start policing their rookie servers and kick/ban these people, They arent helping anyone, they are enjoying owning these new players and what we are left with are new players thinking "balance is horrible" "Ns2 is rife with hackers" "NS2 is not fun"<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=126317" target="_blank"> No, no.. I was TOLD sooo many times this was a GOOD thing... and that these rookies NEEDED to play against these types of players so they could "improve" their skill... </a>
So these "pub stomps" are just simply "learning grounds", it's not rape.. It's education...
If it is more of a surface level problem, with players needing to get used to the FPS portion of the game, then this is definitely something the devs can address. Combat mode has the great characteristic of being enjoyable for both new and veteran players alike. I think the devs should really take the combat mode more seriously, and bring it on board as an "official" "mod" (ie, the game can change from co to ns without restarting the server, as ns1 did). I think a noob friendly combat mode should probably start all players off with 2 upgrade points though, so players don't feel like they aren't teching up at all because they keep dying.
If its a meta game thing, I think only the players themselves can solve that problem, both new and veteran alike. New players have to actually want to learn the strategy behind the game. You cannot force information into someone's head. You can make it more easily accessible I suppose, but NS isn't a game where you can simply make all relevant information to the current situation visible on the players screen. You can only have so many on screen tips, and they can only go so far. Veteran players unfortunately also need to understand that its more important to have a fun game, than to win a game. Commanders especially need to learn how to command reactively. If the aliens have one hive and one resource tower, and no upgrades yet, maybe you don't really need to push for that third level gun upgrade. Just cleared out the marine's second last tech point? Maybe you don't need stomp in order to end this game. Contrary to popular belief, it isn't always better to end a game quickly and decisively in order to start a new, better one. Mainly because quite often, a stomp empties a server.
I've seen too many games where the community is smug as ###### with the "lol go back to CoD" and then a few months later crying about how it takes 20 minutes to find a full server.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Guess what, NS1 was extremely successful, and it wasn't because it catered to the downies. It was because it provided a game with a very high skill ceiling that was unattainable by most, it gave people something to work and strive for, it fostered teamwork, because without it, you die. The very title of this game is reflective of the attitude it has towards the lowest common denominator. Only the strong survive. If you can't be bothered to learn to play properly, or you dislike the way the game is played, LEAVE. This isn't the game for you if you want to hop into a server and play nuketown for 15 minutes. This is a game for strategy, skill, and teamwork. If you are unable or unwilling to play this game for what it is, instead of trying to change it into something you want, then it isn't for you. This community will persist with or without people like you. It has for 10 years and will continue to.
If the problem is new players only wanting to play marines then that is what the devs should try to address not just resorting to breaking the balance of the game.
I've seen too many games where the community is smug as ###### with the "lol go back to CoD" and then a few months later crying about how it takes 20 minutes to find a full server.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
NS is in a difficult position. The key to its innovation and novelty is the in depth strategy that is required to play it properly. Now, in an ideal world, the person who goes commander would under take all the strategic tasks required by the team, and allow the FPS players to simply do their FPS thing. Unfortunately this is not the case in NS. It is the case with the alien commander, which I think is a small part of why aliens are so damn powerful. However it is so far from the case for marines that its scary. The commander relies so heavily on his marines that essentially, in order to be fully effective, every marine player needs to be like a mini commander, and have a pretty good idea of what's going on and what needs to be done.
As I said, they managed to bypass this largely for the alien team, but I don't think it will happen for the marine team, without them losing what it means to be the marine team. I'm sure this is a solution, but it isn't an easy one to figure out at all.
You do realize that aliens can also lose within 2 minutes right?
Now I am no expert when it comes to balancing a game, but it seems to me like all of your suggestions comes down to, "buff the marines." Some of them don't even make sense and makes it seem like you are simply ranting. How is a bigger clip going to help if you are dying in 0.5 seconds as you claimed? I doubt that's the way to go about balancing a game.
It isn't amazing it's common sense. If your teams losing and getting wiped out in two minutes, I'm sorry, but that isn't a balance issue. You're either playing a 2v2-3v3 game or your team is awful and in the case of a bad team, well, bad teams should lose. If aliens win more often than not in public games, that seems about right. Why? because this game is balanced asymmetrically, meaning, the commander has more responsibilities and the marines are stronger in one on one fights. Thus, the aliens get the advantage of quickly spreading across the map. If your team can't be bothered to kill cysts and deny area, then yeah, you lose, and deserve it. That's why they win more in pubs, because they have less responsibility and can spread and cover ground easier. Marines need phase tech to be territory aggressive. It boils down to marines having the technology to kill quickly from a distance, and the aliens having the ability to kill silently and spread quickly.
The problem is that the marines are very powerful early game, and indeed up to around the 8-10 minute mark. Very powerful indeed, potentially more powerful than the aliens can handle. The issue comes in not due to individual marine power, but due to tactical imbalances. The aliens can afford to constantly rush marine spawn, forcing marines to defend indefinitely, while the alien commander expands without the need of players to assist.
Increasing a marines combat potency would make marine/skulk combat intensely unsatisfying for both parties. A more in depth and complex solution may be required.
We had an issue on our server where less skilled players would flood marine team forcing all the good players on aliens. They started to complain and we told them to go random and stop puttimg us in that position. They then listend and the games got more balanced.
I play on a regular server with a lot of regular people. We get a lot of rookies asking how to favorite our server. It also could be the server you are on.
This game kind of reminds me of SMNC except that game has a much higher skill curve. Completely unfriendly to newbies and guess where that game is now?
I'm sure NS2 will retain a small community of players in the end once UWE has milked this cow dry. Maybe they will make a more skill-friendly NS3 somewhere down the road where players of all skill levels can enjoy a good time. I used to play Savage and Savage 2 a few years ago and can honestly say I sucked at both games. I wasn't good with the melee combat regardless of the amount of time I spent on these games, yet I kept coming back to it. Why? Because the game offered me other things to do besides combat that is helpful to the team AND is fun.
NS2 does not have that FUN alternative to combat and is one of the biggest downfalls of the game in my opinion. This is a game that masquerades as a FPS/RTS hybrid, but is no more than a glorified TDM with asymmetric teams. Well of course one can't forget the terribad performance of both the game and the servers. 3 Tickrate FTW!