<!--quoteo(post=2057235:date=Jan 7 2013, 03:24 AM:name=Omar - The Wire)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Omar - The Wire @ Jan 7 2013, 03:24 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2057235"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No one cares that your cousin was ... losing constantly in a game he's new at. If you quit at the first overwhelming challenge, you won't be the person to stick with games often. It's a shame he took it so negatively and a shame he's already written the game off, but if being trounced is his trigger, he's already playing the wrong game by the nature of it's rather difficult learning curve.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Actually, *I CARE* that people are getting pub stomped. So please don't generalize. (This is why server admins want to create a community list of banned players - because of crap like this. Guess what, they care too.)
I've said it before and I'll say it again, a new player will learn NOTHING sitting in a spawn queue all game. It's like throwing a guy who plays NFL football into a high-school pick-up game. He's gonna cream the others and they won't learn a single thing.
The opposite is also true here. Skilled players should leave servers when the people there are getting rolled. Unless they get off of stomping newbies, go find a game that's more of a challenge. Just as a newbie won't learn anything from sitting in the spawn queue, a skilled player won't get any kind of challenge out of playing with newbies.
So who else cares about pub stomps? The DEVELOPERS care, and they have said as such.
What about just good players? What level of hell should we banish them to?
I don't play "comp" level, but I'm better than most of the players in NS2 because I put lots of time and effort into improving. If I go 10-2 as a marine, no one complains about me being a hacker, but I'm making a pretty large impact on the game over my 2-10 team mates... does that disqualify me from playing "pubs"?
There is nothing wrong with comp-players in Pubs. I take exception to them stacking more than 2 to a team if they are clearly running up scored on pubbers... but frankly they should be bored with that server and move on soon enough.
The real problem is scrubs that refuse to listen to the comp-players that show up, or try to learn from what they are doing. Rather than begging for exos at A1 over JP's and weapon upgrades and arguing, maybe strap on a JP and learn to kite Onos for a bit. Nope... lets whinge about the one guy on the server who knows better being a jerk and mute him. (Yeah, personal experience there... I'm just a bit bitter!)
The only real community destroying behavior are the guys who mod the skins in the game to gain a stupid-advantage over the other team and exploit this advantage while going batsh!t insane with the insults on how bad the losing team is no matter what side you're on. (again, personal experience... again... bitter) But, this is the internet, and there does need to be some kind of vote-function to discourage D-bags from ruining a server with attitude. Trolls will be trolls. If the community is serious, it will overcome trolls.
Anyway, if you can't hack going 0-10 in one session and need to quit the game over it... you're not a serious addition to the community. Grow up or go play something else, you're not really going to be missed. However, if you can't beat that 0-10 streak on any server, it's probably you and not the game... get better.
Last thought... Pros going to rookie friendly servers to help instruct rookies is the actual reason we have rookie friendly servers. They are incubators for good skills, not "safe areas" where you can revel in noobishness. If you just want lulz, go find an empty server or mess around in explore mode.
<!--quoteo(post=2057464:date=Jan 7 2013, 12:42 PM:name=Savant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Savant @ Jan 7 2013, 12:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2057464"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I've said it before and I'll say it again, a new player will learn NOTHING sitting in a spawn queue all game. It's like throwing a guy who plays NFL football into a high-school pick-up game. He's gonna cream the others and they won't learn a single thing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=2057515:date=Jan 7 2013, 02:46 PM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zek @ Jan 7 2013, 02:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2057515"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If people are whining about you being a jerk and muting you, maybe you actually are being a jerk.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <img src="http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-0q91HakM04Y/TfvgN7O27eI/AAAAAAAAAIA/27WMEgb7LOU/s1600/bears_repeating.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
<!--quoteo(post=2057464:date=Jan 7 2013, 11:42 AM:name=Savant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Savant @ Jan 7 2013, 11:42 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2057464"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I've said it before and I'll say it again, a new player will learn NOTHING sitting in a spawn queue all game. It's like throwing a guy who plays NFL football into a high-school pick-up game. He's gonna cream the others and they won't learn a single thing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Then keep saying it? It doesn't validate your opinion. I've already stated my case as to why you are very wrong about this in a couple threads, I'm not going to spend my time defending it in every other thread I make a post about that.
<!--quoteo(post=2057511:date=Jan 7 2013, 01:27 PM:name=Troubleshooter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Troubleshooter @ Jan 7 2013, 01:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2057511"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Last thought... Pros going to rookie friendly servers to help instruct rookies is the actual reason we have rookie friendly servers. They are incubators for good skills, not "safe areas" where you can revel in noobishness. If you just want lulz, go find an empty server or mess around in explore mode.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Nicely put.
I fail to see how anyone can legitimize the argument that its not fair for new players to perform less skillfully, and get "rolled", by a player who has been playing for a larger amount of time.
There's a couple good arguments on how your whole "good players should leave rookie friendly servers alone." Here's the best one IMO: <b>Ping.</b>
We all want the lowest Ping possible on a server. For some of us, the lowest Ping server may be a Rookie Friendly server. Compound this with the fact that there can be a list of 20 servers, but only a few of them will have full, or close to full capacity, the "more skilled" players are left with little choice.
Honestly, this argument needs to stop. My very first game of NS2 contained those "players" with the 30-0 KDR, and to me that's normal. <b>No one should ever be punished for being better at something than someone else</b>. Ever. Does no one else believe that the best way to improve at something is to get your ass kicked, and keep trying? Practice makes perfect?
Maybe the Rookies are just to used to Games holding their hand through them, instead of encountering a wall, and learning to scale it.
<!--quoteo(post=2057526:date=Jan 7 2013, 02:13 PM:name=Afterhours)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Afterhours @ Jan 7 2013, 02:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2057526"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Does no one else believe that the best way to improve at something is to get your ass kicked, and keep trying? Practice makes perfect?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> A lot of us believe that very adamantly.
<!--quoteo(post=2057526:date=Jan 7 2013, 03:13 PM:name=Afterhours)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Afterhours @ Jan 7 2013, 03:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2057526"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->IMO, L2P. Learn from your opponents.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I seriously do not believe anyone is suggesting that newbies not take their lumps.
I believe that the entire thrust of this post was to suggest that the in game training materials are severely lacking.
Now, the main course of discussion seemed to be how to go about training these rookies; and this is where there is a bone of contention. Some people want more hand-holding than others. Some people want an in-game, interactive tutorial. Others feel that the wiki is enough.
Personally, I feel the wiki is good and a TF2 style in-game tutorial would augment it nicely. I do not want any game mechanics changed to make the game easier, but clearly we do need a better mechanism in place to train the rookies. Not everyone learns well "under fire".
<!--quoteo(post=2057511:date=Jan 7 2013, 04:27 PM:name=Troubleshooter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Troubleshooter @ Jan 7 2013, 04:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2057511"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What about just good players? What level of hell should we banish them to?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->They should be looking for games with other good players. Trolling newbie players to pump up their epeen by going 50-0 doesn't make you a good player. It makes you an asshat.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't play "comp" level, but I'm better than most of the players in NS2 because I put lots of time and effort into improving. If I go 10-2 as a marine, no one complains about me being a hacker, but I'm making a pretty large impact on the game over my 2-10 team mates... does that disqualify me from playing "pubs"?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Hey, I'm a 'good player' too. The differentiation should come into play when you can answer this simple question.
<b><!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->"Is my gameplay the single defining factor of what the outcome of the game will be?"<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--> </b>
Yes or no.
If the answer is yes, then you should not be playing on that server. Period. If the presence of ONE player means that this ONE player will determine the outcome of the game, then that isn't fair to the other 15 people on the server. This isn't 'punishment' for being good, it's common sense that you don't go play in the kindergarten area of the playground when you're in 8th grade. Play with people your own 'age' (skill) instead.
In my case, if I find that I'm on a server with a high concentration of new players and my presence is significantly impacting gameplay, I'll either leave, or engage in a more tutorial role. (Which usually means just wandering with groups of marines, not actively assaulting, just trying to help them understand the concepts.)
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The real problem is scrubs that refuse to listen to the comp-players that show up, or try to learn from what they are doing. Rather than begging for exos at A1 over JP's and weapon upgrades and arguing, maybe strap on a JP and learn to kite Onos for a bit. Nope... lets whinge about the one guy on the server who knows better being a jerk and mute him. (Yeah, personal experience there... I'm just a bit bitter!)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Three words...
<!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><b>Attitude is everything.</b><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
I've been on servers with that "comp player" who was supposedly trying to "help the scrubs". What was their idea of help? It was the same elitist bullcrap I hear all the time where they berate the new players for making simple mistakes. It's insults and calling people 'idiots' or 'morons' when they don't know how to build an extractor. Why would you stay on a server if you can't stand that people don't know how to play?
I'll say it again. Rolling another team by going 50-0 doesn't teach them jack squat when all they are doing is sitting in the spawn queue. <b>Even the developers have admitted that. </b> People learn by PLAYING, not by sitting in third person spectator mode waiting to spawn and bemoaning the fact that the weapon/lifeform they just bought is gone. Hard to learn how to play lerk when you get pistol whipped from across the map in the first minute.
The one place I like to see comp players on rookie infested servers is in the command chair, but only *IF* they have the patience to deal with players who don't have a clue how to play. If not, find another server. There are plenty. I find it comical that these supposedly 'skilled' players seem to fight so hard for their 'right' to pub-stomp, and then they get all preachy when people start leaving.
Maybe the people leaving are not the ones with the problem.
<!--quoteo(post=2057529:date=Jan 7 2013, 05:22 PM:name=MMZ_Torak)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MMZ_Torak @ Jan 7 2013, 05:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2057529"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Personally, I feel the wiki is good and a TF2 style in-game tutorial would augment it nicely. I do not want any game mechanics changed to make the game easier, but clearly we do need a better mechanism in place to train the rookies. Not everyone learns well "under fire".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->I agree completely. Any kind of 'offline' training would be a godsend.
Right now there are still loads of 'green names' on the rookie servers, despite the sale ending some time ago. These people haven't had a chance to play very much, and they still run into problems trying to learn the game. It's even worse for commander since people expect total competence, and the game can be lost by the commander in under 2 minutes with the wrong decisions.
Whenever I go above like 10:1 I try to offer advice in all chat to the other comm or players, so not everyone with a ridiculously high score is a kill ######. The problematic ones are the ones that kill###### for the sake of killwhoring. An example of this would be to go egg camping and wait for people to spawn before finishing the health, or people camping ip or pg without actually attacking them. I have seen people do both in spec and in play, and honestly there is no reason to do either other than padding your score and kills.
<!--quoteo(post=2057284:date=Jan 7 2013, 05:15 AM:name=KilledByDeath)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KilledByDeath @ Jan 7 2013, 05:15 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2057284"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->They won't be playing in a month even without a tutorial or whatever because this game is an unbalanced ###### fest for the Aliens and are somehow getting buffed next patch.
I understand this can be a serious issue, if we were actually talking about toddlers and elementary children playing this game. But we're not. We're playing with fully functional people who can, and will improve their skills over time.
You know what? I have a better idea. Lets just turn this topic into your much sought after idea: Rookie Tutorial.
Here's my advice Recruits: Watch Streams.
Watch the Shoutcasted/Competitive teams play to understand whats important in the game in terms of big-picture strategy, and watch individual players play FPV for meta-tips and tactics. Then, try to recreate what you've seen in-game. Patience, and Practice are your friends. Don't worry about score, because you can have the worst score of both teams, but Ramboing into the Alien base to wipe out RTs and upgrades can be key in the long-term game.
<!--quoteo(post=2057515:date=Jan 7 2013, 08:46 PM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zek @ Jan 7 2013, 08:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2057515"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If people are whining about you being a jerk and muting you, maybe you actually are being a jerk.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wish I had saved the conversation to be honest. I assure you, I was trolling only as hard as I had to since they wanted me to go into DPS numbers of exos vs. shotgun/jp... I invited them to come here and have the debate in a proper forum for such things but they were hard at work trying to convince the commander I was full of ######. Being the only player with any experience trying to talk noobs out of their exos is going to make you flame-bait. I was muted because I kept pointing out that I was not going to have an in-depth training session while inviting them to the forums but standing my ground on the merits of JP's vs. Exo's.
FWIW, the commander went JP's first and was actively supporting me, so I won the argument in every way that matters.
Not that I'm not capable of being a jerk when I want to be, but in this case, no... just rookies with their fingers in their ears and afraid to take the argument to the forums where it belongs.
@Savant : Anyone that's played with me would be able to tell you I'm very patient and take time to talk rookies (especially commanders) though the game. In this case, I had a group of rookies telling me I was flat out wrong and begging the commander to ignore me.
As for the rest of it... I still don't agree. Theres nothing wrong with staying on a server when you're the deciding factor in the game. The key is whether or not you are trying to be a big fish or if you're providing something to learn from. Most of the "skills" I've picked up have been from getting my face handed to me by players that were over the top good. If they had just bailed on the server, I would have taken much longer to learn things like running with the ax out (throwing down your gun for extra speed when nessecary) or how to cut off alien expansion on Terminal.
Rookie Marines have a serious crush on the Exo. I mean, it has its selling point to the game, but new players will argue with you til they're blue in the face that the Exo is the best.
<!--quoteo(post=2057593:date=Jan 7 2013, 11:42 PM:name=Afterhours)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Afterhours @ Jan 7 2013, 11:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2057593"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Rookie Marines have a serious crush on the Exo. I mean, it has its selling point to the game, but new players will argue with you til they're blue in the face that the Exo is the best.
- From a fellow SG/JP preferred Marine.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
To be honest, I went through the exact same line of thinking. When I was playing the game on day 2, I was telling people how great the single exo is because you can punch stuff endlessly while your gun is on cool-down and I couldn't use a JP to save my life. After getting JP'ed down as an Onos a few times, and getting my exo nuked by gorge/skulk combos... I started to reconsider. Its just the learning curve... I know this... but trying to talk rookies out of their exos can be really hard to do, and if you're commanding, you are going to have a real uphill climb if the noobs don't know how to JP and you keep spending all the T-Res dropping them out of the proto ;)
do people actually check the scoreboard? I find that the only times I check the scoreboard are end of match, to mute someone, or to check if we still have comm. if I have time to check the scoreboard, I have time to check the map instead. I don't understand padding k/d ratios, a win is a win, and there are more important things to be doing to insure that win.
<!--quoteo(post=2057596:date=Jan 7 2013, 04:52 PM:name=Troubleshooter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Troubleshooter @ Jan 7 2013, 04:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2057596"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->To be honest, I went through the exact same line of thinking. When I was playing the game on day 2, I was telling people how great the single exo is because you can punch stuff endlessly while your gun is on cool-down and I couldn't use a JP to save my life. After getting JP'ed down as an Onos a few times, and getting my exo nuked by gorge/skulk combos... I started to reconsider. Its just the learning curve... I know this... but trying to talk rookies out of their exos can be really hard to do, and if you're commanding, you are going to have a real uphill climb if the noobs don't know how to JP and you keep spending all the T-Res dropping them out of the proto ;)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> plus, you know, flying to an armory to heal up, and being able to use phase gates.
<!--quoteo(post=2057593:date=Jan 7 2013, 07:42 PM:name=Afterhours)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Afterhours @ Jan 7 2013, 07:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2057593"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Rookie Marines have a serious crush on the Exo. I mean, it has its selling point to the game<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->It was the basis for every single NS2 ad on Steam. Of course you are gonna attract people that want it. Furthermore, most people never get to play it since marines lose more often (as the developers have admitted) and so this means they see EXOs even less. They just want to play with the fun toy. Can you blame them?
Don't worry, as soon as they play an EXO and get rolled by a skulk in 7 seconds, they stop asking for EXOs.
<!--quoteo(post=2057589:date=Jan 7 2013, 07:36 PM:name=Troubleshooter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Troubleshooter @ Jan 7 2013, 07:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2057589"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Theres nothing wrong with staying on a server when you're the deciding factor in the game. The key is whether or not you are trying to be a big fish or if you're providing something to learn from.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->You can't expect me to believe this. If I was on your server and I was the one that determined the outcome of the game, you would be OK with that?
So the fact that NOTHING ANYONE DOES counts for jack squat is somehow OK, so long the person deciding the game has his fun?
Sorry, I disagree. This is a TEAM game. That means the TEAM should be what wins or loses the game, not one player. If one person is rolling the server (and he keeps doing it once he sees that it's a caskwalk) then he's being an asshat, plain and simple.
WOW!!!!!! 12 pages. Talk about a hot topic. I asked for it to be closed pages and pages ago as well as stopped paying attention to it. Oh well. Type on!
If you think one single field player can decide a 12v12 game, your amazing retarded or completely delusional, most likely both tbh.... You can be the best player in the game and you will loose every single game without a competent commander.
Its amazing that people continue to make a mountain out of a mole hole here - I have seen countless posts from new players about how this community is helpful and not like others that just ######stomp new players... While its bound to happen to a certain degree in any game its apparent its a much smaller issue in NS2.
If you want to continue to complain and cry about an issue with 0 merit, please by all means continue to do so. Just stop blaming it on competitive players as a whole since I am really sick of people like you spreading lies and bull###### about people you have never even ######ing played against.
I am done here and have lost any ounce of respect I could have had for the lot of you.
Does no one else get the overwhelming drive to try and kill the #1 player on the server? XD
I usually make them my target. It's great practice, and rewarding when you do get to kill them. :)
Honestly, though, beating a dead horse here. Just trust in your human ability to improve at something you practice on a regular basis. If you're the type of player expecting to roll the competition when you only put in 2 hours a week, I've got some news for you...
This thread got really off topic really fast, it turned from a single guy worrying that people will leave because they can't insta-win the first time they join a game they never played before. Then it turned into an argument between, i think, about 4 or 5 different people, regardless of whether or not they were trolling, the issue on this thread is that the game needs some way of letting people know that learning this game is important, so talk about different ways to fix it, not whether or not they need to l2p or the people in the community are abusive. If you don't think there is a problem with the learning curve of the game, post a few words of it, like "It's fine the way it is", elaborate if asked. Not a whole god dam essay on what needs to fudging happen.
On-topic:Personally, if the OP doesnt want players to leave because of a bad first impression, he should talk to every new player about their experience with the game they played (if it seemed like they had a bad time) and let them know what they could do to improve their performance. The game also needs a toggle-able tutorial "mode". For example, if you die, a little help screen will pop up shortly describing what killed you and ways you can dodge it, then they could select an advanced tactics tab of some sort which holds information of good strategies that are commonly used regarding the thing. OR if you want to know what a certain building does, you can walk up to it and press some button, and a short description (similar to the kill screen one) will pop up, this too, with an advanced info tab. Outside of game they could implement an information screen which holds all the information of everything in the game, such as weapons, armor, upgrades, classes, etc. etc.
<!--quoteo(post=2057604:date=Jan 7 2013, 06:17 PM:name=amoral)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (amoral @ Jan 7 2013, 06:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2057604"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->do people actually check the scoreboard?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This is very important for aliens early game in pub play. A lot of time you'll get a player leading a leeroy rush before shift is up, ending up with half the aliens sitting in spawn queue for 2 minutes. It's also important to check what type of lifeforms are actively roaming the field at various stages of the game.
<!--quoteo(post=2057538:date=Jan 7 2013, 08:56 PM:name=Savant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Savant @ Jan 7 2013, 08:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2057538"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I am a complete ###### and am so bad that I cause my team to lose no matter what team I play on, thus I should never play on any servers ever again.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So we bought a game and because we got really good at it we shouldn't play it? Gathers are full of idiots and comp scene is dying cos the game is broken...
The rare times we stop in to play some pubs, and in most cases stay quite and just play without talking we get flamed at and/or called hackers by idiots and morons like you.
Some competitive players have gone WELL OUT OF THEIR WAY to attempt to teach the community. Locklear and Bitey setup L2PNS but they are obviously elitist idiots who don't want people to learn arn't they? Yes I totally agree, Locklear you are a complete lul ###### ###### ###### ###### ###### and I hope you die in a fire with Bitey... /sarcasm off.
I spent 12 hours teaching people on release day: I have a pile of people still on friends whom I hand held through their first ever games of NS2.
I just had a comp game the other night: the opposite team actually accused our merc of hacking when he played no better than a random pub player. The hatred in this community is ridiculous and I am sick of it you are ridiculous and randomly spreading your hatred falsely onto large groups of people makes me want to vomit...
Don't expect me to play again with idiots who: despite barely understanding the game, do not want to learn to get better and thus hate everyone whom is better than them. I really hope whatever disease you have is not infectious and your cancerous views do not spread to others.
<!--quoteo(post=2057618:date=Jan 7 2013, 03:56 PM:name=xDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xDragon @ Jan 7 2013, 03:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2057618"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you think one single field player can decide a 12v12 game, your amazing retarded or completely delusional, most likely both tbh.... You can be the best player in the game and you will loose every single game without a competent commander.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The relationship is symbiotic.
I love commanding, but if people don't follow orders* I'll F4 and change teams/change servers.
*By this I mean, at least half of the team doesn't listen.
With all the comments in this thread, I still find it hilarious that people ACTUALLY believe that somebody being better at this game than someone else is hurting the community.
Seriously? Did your Mom breast-feed you til you were 18 and out of highschool? Grow a pair, gents. Accept the fact that you are worse than someone else out there. Wanna know what really matters? If you ###### about it on the forums, or you suck it up and keep playing til you get as good as the players youre getting owned by... And then guess what?! You can make educated suggestions for game balance because you actually have a good understanding of how the game plays out and works. IMAGINE THAT!
"But After, we need to appeal to the new players!" New players who can't stand losing, expect to roll anybody in a game theyve never played, and don't want to invest a good amount of time to get good at something have no place here. Plain and simple. We didn't lose them as a player, we never had them.
Comments
RtCW wasn't a popular game, even when it was new.
I've said it before and I'll say it again, a new player will learn NOTHING sitting in a spawn queue all game. It's like throwing a guy who plays NFL football into a high-school pick-up game. He's gonna cream the others and they won't learn a single thing.
The opposite is also true here. Skilled players should leave servers when the people there are getting rolled. Unless they get off of stomping newbies, go find a game that's more of a challenge. Just as a newbie won't learn anything from sitting in the spawn queue, a skilled player won't get any kind of challenge out of playing with newbies.
So who else cares about pub stomps? The DEVELOPERS care, and they have said as such.
I don't play "comp" level, but I'm better than most of the players in NS2 because I put lots of time and effort into improving. If I go 10-2 as a marine, no one complains about me being a hacker, but I'm making a pretty large impact on the game over my 2-10 team mates... does that disqualify me from playing "pubs"?
There is nothing wrong with comp-players in Pubs. I take exception to them stacking more than 2 to a team if they are clearly running up scored on pubbers... but frankly they should be bored with that server and move on soon enough.
The real problem is scrubs that refuse to listen to the comp-players that show up, or try to learn from what they are doing. Rather than begging for exos at A1 over JP's and weapon upgrades and arguing, maybe strap on a JP and learn to kite Onos for a bit. Nope... lets whinge about the one guy on the server who knows better being a jerk and mute him. (Yeah, personal experience there... I'm just a bit bitter!)
The only real community destroying behavior are the guys who mod the skins in the game to gain a stupid-advantage over the other team and exploit this advantage while going batsh!t insane with the insults on how bad the losing team is no matter what side you're on. (again, personal experience... again... bitter) But, this is the internet, and there does need to be some kind of vote-function to discourage D-bags from ruining a server with attitude. Trolls will be trolls. If the community is serious, it will overcome trolls.
Anyway, if you can't hack going 0-10 in one session and need to quit the game over it... you're not a serious addition to the community. Grow up or go play something else, you're not really going to be missed. However, if you can't beat that 0-10 streak on any server, it's probably you and not the game... get better.
Last thought... Pros going to rookie friendly servers to help instruct rookies is the actual reason we have rookie friendly servers. They are incubators for good skills, not "safe areas" where you can revel in noobishness. If you just want lulz, go find an empty server or mess around in explore mode.
<!--quoteo(post=2057515:date=Jan 7 2013, 02:46 PM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zek @ Jan 7 2013, 02:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2057515"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If people are whining about you being a jerk and muting you, maybe you actually are being a jerk.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<img src="http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-0q91HakM04Y/TfvgN7O27eI/AAAAAAAAAIA/27WMEgb7LOU/s1600/bears_repeating.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Then keep saying it? It doesn't validate your opinion. I've already stated my case as to why you are very wrong about this in a couple threads, I'm not going to spend my time defending it in every other thread I make a post about that.
<!--quoteo(post=2057511:date=Jan 7 2013, 01:27 PM:name=Troubleshooter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Troubleshooter @ Jan 7 2013, 01:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2057511"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Last thought... Pros going to rookie friendly servers to help instruct rookies is the actual reason we have rookie friendly servers. They are incubators for good skills, not "safe areas" where you can revel in noobishness. If you just want lulz, go find an empty server or mess around in explore mode.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nicely put.
There's a couple good arguments on how your whole "good players should leave rookie friendly servers alone." Here's the best one IMO: <b>Ping.</b>
We all want the lowest Ping possible on a server. For some of us, the lowest Ping server may be a Rookie Friendly server. Compound this with the fact that there can be a list of 20 servers, but only a few of them will have full, or close to full capacity, the "more skilled" players are left with little choice.
Honestly, this argument needs to stop. My very first game of NS2 contained those "players" with the 30-0 KDR, and to me that's normal. <b>No one should ever be punished for being better at something than someone else</b>. Ever. Does no one else believe that the best way to improve at something is to get your ass kicked, and keep trying? Practice makes perfect?
Maybe the Rookies are just to used to Games holding their hand through them, instead of encountering a wall, and learning to scale it.
IMO, L2P. Learn from your opponents.
I seriously do not believe anyone is suggesting that newbies not take their lumps.
I believe that the entire thrust of this post was to suggest that the in game training materials are severely lacking.
Now, the main course of discussion seemed to be how to go about training these rookies; and this is where there is a bone of contention. Some people want more hand-holding than others. Some people want an in-game, interactive tutorial. Others feel that the wiki is enough.
Personally, I feel the wiki is good and a TF2 style in-game tutorial would augment it nicely. I do not want any game mechanics changed to make the game easier, but clearly we do need a better mechanism in place to train the rookies. Not everyone learns well "under fire".
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't play "comp" level, but I'm better than most of the players in NS2 because I put lots of time and effort into improving. If I go 10-2 as a marine, no one complains about me being a hacker, but I'm making a pretty large impact on the game over my 2-10 team mates... does that disqualify me from playing "pubs"?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Hey, I'm a 'good player' too. The differentiation should come into play when you can answer this simple question.
<b><!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->"Is my gameplay the single defining factor of what the outcome of the game will be?"<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--> </b>
Yes or no.
If the answer is yes, then you should not be playing on that server. Period. If the presence of ONE player means that this ONE player will determine the outcome of the game, then that isn't fair to the other 15 people on the server. This isn't 'punishment' for being good, it's common sense that you don't go play in the kindergarten area of the playground when you're in 8th grade. Play with people your own 'age' (skill) instead.
In my case, if I find that I'm on a server with a high concentration of new players and my presence is significantly impacting gameplay, I'll either leave, or engage in a more tutorial role. (Which usually means just wandering with groups of marines, not actively assaulting, just trying to help them understand the concepts.)
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The real problem is scrubs that refuse to listen to the comp-players that show up, or try to learn from what they are doing. Rather than begging for exos at A1 over JP's and weapon upgrades and arguing, maybe strap on a JP and learn to kite Onos for a bit. Nope... lets whinge about the one guy on the server who knows better being a jerk and mute him. (Yeah, personal experience there... I'm just a bit bitter!)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Three words...
<!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><b>Attitude is everything.</b><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
I've been on servers with that "comp player" who was supposedly trying to "help the scrubs". What was their idea of help? It was the same elitist bullcrap I hear all the time where they berate the new players for making simple mistakes. It's insults and calling people 'idiots' or 'morons' when they don't know how to build an extractor. Why would you stay on a server if you can't stand that people don't know how to play?
I'll say it again. Rolling another team by going 50-0 doesn't teach them jack squat when all they are doing is sitting in the spawn queue. <b>Even the developers have admitted that. </b> People learn by PLAYING, not by sitting in third person spectator mode waiting to spawn and bemoaning the fact that the weapon/lifeform they just bought is gone. Hard to learn how to play lerk when you get pistol whipped from across the map in the first minute.
The one place I like to see comp players on rookie infested servers is in the command chair, but only *IF* they have the patience to deal with players who don't have a clue how to play. If not, find another server. There are plenty. I find it comical that these supposedly 'skilled' players seem to fight so hard for their 'right' to pub-stomp, and then they get all preachy when people start leaving.
Maybe the people leaving are not the ones with the problem.
Right now there are still loads of 'green names' on the rookie servers, despite the sale ending some time ago. These people haven't had a chance to play very much, and they still run into problems trying to learn the game. It's even worse for commander since people expect total competence, and the game can be lost by the commander in under 2 minutes with the wrong decisions.
Yay.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
opinion
You know what? I have a better idea. Lets just turn this topic into your much sought after idea: Rookie Tutorial.
Here's my advice Recruits: Watch Streams.
Watch the Shoutcasted/Competitive teams play to understand whats important in the game in terms of big-picture strategy, and watch individual players play FPV for meta-tips and tactics.
Then, try to recreate what you've seen in-game. Patience, and Practice are your friends. Don't worry about score, because you can have the worst score of both teams, but Ramboing into the Alien base to wipe out RTs and upgrades can be key in the long-term game.
Wish I had saved the conversation to be honest. I assure you, I was trolling only as hard as I had to since they wanted me to go into DPS numbers of exos vs. shotgun/jp... I invited them to come here and have the debate in a proper forum for such things but they were hard at work trying to convince the commander I was full of ######. Being the only player with any experience trying to talk noobs out of their exos is going to make you flame-bait. I was muted because I kept pointing out that I was not going to have an in-depth training session while inviting them to the forums but standing my ground on the merits of JP's vs. Exo's.
FWIW, the commander went JP's first and was actively supporting me, so I won the argument in every way that matters.
Not that I'm not capable of being a jerk when I want to be, but in this case, no... just rookies with their fingers in their ears and afraid to take the argument to the forums where it belongs.
@Savant : Anyone that's played with me would be able to tell you I'm very patient and take time to talk rookies (especially commanders) though the game. In this case, I had a group of rookies telling me I was flat out wrong and begging the commander to ignore me.
As for the rest of it... I still don't agree. Theres nothing wrong with staying on a server when you're the deciding factor in the game. The key is whether or not you are trying to be a big fish or if you're providing something to learn from. Most of the "skills" I've picked up have been from getting my face handed to me by players that were over the top good. If they had just bailed on the server, I would have taken much longer to learn things like running with the ax out (throwing down your gun for extra speed when nessecary) or how to cut off alien expansion on Terminal.
- From a fellow SG/JP preferred Marine.
- From a fellow SG/JP preferred Marine.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
To be honest, I went through the exact same line of thinking. When I was playing the game on day 2, I was telling people how great the single exo is because you can punch stuff endlessly while your gun is on cool-down and I couldn't use a JP to save my life. After getting JP'ed down as an Onos a few times, and getting my exo nuked by gorge/skulk combos... I started to reconsider. Its just the learning curve... I know this... but trying to talk rookies out of their exos can be really hard to do, and if you're commanding, you are going to have a real uphill climb if the noobs don't know how to JP and you keep spending all the T-Res dropping them out of the proto ;)
plus, you know, flying to an armory to heal up, and being able to use phase gates.
Don't worry, as soon as they play an EXO and get rolled by a skulk in 7 seconds, they stop asking for EXOs.
So the fact that NOTHING ANYONE DOES counts for jack squat is somehow OK, so long the person deciding the game has his fun?
Sorry, I disagree. This is a TEAM game. That means the TEAM should be what wins or loses the game, not one player. If one person is rolling the server (and he keeps doing it once he sees that it's a caskwalk) then he's being an asshat, plain and simple.
Its amazing that people continue to make a mountain out of a mole hole here - I have seen countless posts from new players about how this community is helpful and not like others that just ######stomp new players... While its bound to happen to a certain degree in any game its apparent its a much smaller issue in NS2.
If you want to continue to complain and cry about an issue with 0 merit, please by all means continue to do so. Just stop blaming it on competitive players as a whole since I am really sick of people like you spreading lies and bull###### about people you have never even ######ing played against.
I am done here and have lost any ounce of respect I could have had for the lot of you.
I usually make them my target. It's great practice, and rewarding when you do get to kill them. :)
Honestly, though, beating a dead horse here. Just trust in your human ability to improve at something you practice on a regular basis. If you're the type of player expecting to roll the competition when you only put in 2 hours a week, I've got some news for you...
On-topic:Personally, if the OP doesnt want players to leave because of a bad first impression, he should talk to every new player about their experience with the game they played (if it seemed like they had a bad time) and let them know what they could do to improve their performance. The game also needs a toggle-able tutorial "mode". For example, if you die, a little help screen will pop up shortly describing what killed you and ways you can dodge it, then they could select an advanced tactics tab of some sort which holds information of good strategies that are commonly used regarding the thing. OR if you want to know what a certain building does, you can walk up to it and press some button, and a short description (similar to the kill screen one) will pop up, this too, with an advanced info tab. Outside of game they could implement an information screen which holds all the information of everything in the game, such as weapons, armor, upgrades, classes, etc. etc.
This is very important for aliens early game in pub play. A lot of time you'll get a player leading a leeroy rush before shift is up, ending up with half the aliens sitting in spawn queue for 2 minutes. It's also important to check what type of lifeforms are actively roaming the field at various stages of the game.
So we bought a game and because we got really good at it we shouldn't play it?
Gathers are full of idiots and comp scene is dying cos the game is broken...
The rare times we stop in to play some pubs, and in most cases stay quite and just play without talking
we get flamed at and/or called hackers by idiots and morons like you.
Some competitive players have gone WELL OUT OF THEIR WAY to attempt to teach the community.
Locklear and Bitey setup L2PNS but they are obviously elitist idiots who don't want people to learn arn't they?
Yes I totally agree, Locklear you are a complete lul ###### ###### ###### ###### ###### and I hope you die in a fire with Bitey...
/sarcasm off.
I spent 12 hours teaching people on release day: I have a pile of people still on friends whom I hand held through their first ever games of NS2.
I just had a comp game the other night: the opposite team actually accused our merc of hacking when he played no better than a random pub player. The hatred in this community is ridiculous and I am sick of it you are ridiculous and randomly spreading your hatred falsely onto large groups of people makes me want to vomit...
Don't expect me to play again with idiots who: despite barely understanding the game, do not want to learn to get better and thus hate everyone whom is better than them. I really hope whatever disease you have is not infectious and your cancerous views do not spread to others.
The relationship is symbiotic.
I love commanding, but if people don't follow orders* I'll F4 and change teams/change servers.
*By this I mean, at least half of the team doesn't listen.
Seriously? Did your Mom breast-feed you til you were 18 and out of highschool? Grow a pair, gents. Accept the fact that you are worse than someone else out there. Wanna know what really matters? If you ###### about it on the forums, or you suck it up and keep playing til you get as good as the players youre getting owned by... And then guess what?! You can make educated suggestions for game balance because you actually have a good understanding of how the game plays out and works. IMAGINE THAT!
"But After, we need to appeal to the new players!" New players who can't stand losing, expect to roll anybody in a game theyve never played, and don't want to invest a good amount of time to get good at something have no place here. Plain and simple. We didn't lose them as a player, we never had them.