Also, to all the "learn to play" people, if someone isn't having fun, they aren't sticking around to "learn how to play". After all, there is no guarantee it will be fun once they learn to play, and they know for a fact it isn't fun now.
<!--quoteo(post=2054915:date=Jan 2 2013, 04:29 PM:name=Bender the Offender)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bender the Offender @ Jan 2 2013, 04:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2054915"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also, to all the "learn to play" people, if someone isn't having fun, they aren't sticking around to "learn how to play". After all, there is no guarantee it will be fun once they learn to play, and they know for a fact it isn't fun now.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
not all games can be made the same. how do you simplify a game like ns2? turn it into dungeon defenders? i mean seriously if you cant take name calling, then mommy sheltered you far too much and you need to grow up. welcome to the real world where people dont like you and want to steal your apple juice (and post it on youtube). also, ns2 isnt for everyone, and trying to make it for everyone is just going to ruin it for everyone cause itll be a complete mess.
<!--quoteo(post=2054915:date=Jan 2 2013, 04:29 PM:name=Bender the Offender)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bender the Offender @ Jan 2 2013, 04:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2054915"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also, to all the "learn to play" people, if someone isn't having fun, they aren't sticking around to "learn how to play". After all, there is no guarantee it will be fun once they learn to play, and they know for a fact it isn't fun now.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think Golf would like to have a word with you. ;)
<!--quoteo(post=2054915:date=Jan 3 2013, 08:29 AM:name=Bender the Offender)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bender the Offender @ Jan 3 2013, 08:29 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2054915"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also, to all the "learn to play" people, if someone isn't having fun, they aren't sticking around to "learn how to play". After all, there is no guarantee it will be fun once they learn to play, and they know for a fact it isn't fun now.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> They are not having fun because they're dying constantly and losing alot. This is L2P no matter how you slice it. Adding fun is not simply a case of e.g. static buffing marines to raise skill floors. Up to a certain point, it makes no sense to cater to those unwilling to figure out how the game is played. Yes there are things inherently not fun in NS2 that contribute to newb unfriendliness, although basically all recent posts on the topic have failed to identify them. Yes L2P is not always appropriate, but in the specific case of the threads that have been popping up recently, it is.
Take a random group of people off the street who have never played football before and put them up against Manchester united. I'm not sure they're going to have alot of fun getting absolutely stomped (let's assume they don't). Should we conclude the grass is unfriendly to new players because it gives the other team too much of an advantage, and so we should turn it into mud? That rule about handballing, its pretty unfriendly to new players, we should remove that too.
*edit* This is the unfortunate nature of assymetric balance. Players generally tend to first blame factors besides themselves for their losses. Symmetric games deny players from pointing the finger at a mechanical imbalance because intuitively it makes no sense to do so. Both players had the same symmetric opportunities and restrictions. Assymetric balance is much harder to understand, and so you're always going to get people blaming some assymetric difference for their lack of fun without thinking further.
<!--quoteo(post=2054921:date=Jan 2 2013, 04:38 PM:name=VeNeM)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VeNeM @ Jan 2 2013, 04:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2054921"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->not all games can be made the same. how do you simplify a game like ns2? turn it into dungeon defenders? i mean seriously if you cant take name calling, then mommy sheltered you far too much and you need to grow up. welcome to the real world where people dont like you and want to steal your apple juice (and post it on youtube). also, ns2 isnt for everyone, and trying to make it for everyone is just going to ruin it for everyone cause itll be a complete mess.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's multiplayer only. If you don't attract new players, the game stagnates and dies. Also, grow up? This is a video game forum. There will be no maturity shown here =P
"Take a random group of people off the street who have never played football before and put them up against Manchester united. I'm not sure they're going to have alot of fun getting absolutely stomped (let's assume they don't)"
Exactly. There is no place to learn how to play and the "rookie friendly" servers don't kick experienced players out. People who have logged few hours and have little experience should have separate servers so they can figure out what's going on before being expected to compete against experienced people. Once someone demonstrates an appreciable level of skill and knowledge, bar them from the kiddie pool.
turn on a special wall hack to show high kdr players so noobs can gang up on them (or run away).
special snowball ammo that only freezes players with high kdr so they can be killed (or better shattered into a zillion pieces)
high kdr players enter special drunk on power intoxicated mode & stagger around like in witcher. drunken master side effect - if hit, the rifle butt can one shot an onos
Plenty of rookies get good quickly. One bloke i sat down and taught the game to over mic, literally started kicking the other rookies ass within a few games. He listened to every piece of advice i laid down, now there isnt much advice for me to give him. On the other hand, i see people who have played for 100 hours refuse to get drifters because "they are useless", and then lose a match because of a snuck phasegate despite having 3 hives and heaps of res.
IMO a lot of people just dont want to admit they need to l2p, we're all rambo. This isnt even a new thing to FPS, doomguy and quakeguy are way more rambo than rambo himself.
"Also, grow up? This is a video game forum. There will be no maturity shown here =P"
Hehe, unfortunatly the average age of a male gamer in Australia 2012 is: 32.
Bloody ancient!
PS, more serious to OP: We have rookie friendly servers, if you jump in comm and get flamed or whatever for being new, point out its a newbie server. Those servers are there for *you*, make what you will of them. Remember, average age 32, you are not likely to be 16, so if you want to learn as an adult, you must *go about achieving that yourself* ... as an adult, if I thought I could just walk into a store, by an Ipad and instantly know how to mail merge over bluetooth simply because 'I paid for it' ... I certainly wouldn't expect to be enrolled in free tutorials. Duh.
You are an adult, on Earth, challanges abound in life, if you want to learn NS2, get off your butt and do so. I have ~370 hours on NS2, do you think I would have learned a comparable amount by watching a 2 hour tutorial from UWE? No.
And if people think single player helps at multi, beyond game mechanics (which you learn the same in SP and MP, in fact you just wasted 10 hours learning nothing new by playing SP) I have a couple of counter examples: C&C/Red Alert, Dawn of War 1 & 2, Far Cry 2, Bioshock. Hell, if your not playing Co-op, single wont teach you jack about multi!
Really guys, youre talking about NS2 like its goddamn rocket science. This game is not really more complex then a RTS. I dont see for what exactly newbies need over 9000 tutorials. I didnt play NS1 and learned the most important stuff within few hours. Its not that hard god damn it. Players nowadays are used to fastfood shooters without depth way to much. And such players wont continue playing a competitive shooter, they just want a solo game where they can get a fat K/D. They wont keep playing NS2 , no matter how many tutorials you give them or how hard you buff marines. The problem is not how nooby friendly a game is, but the interest in the game itself. I made some guys a I like to play other games with trying out this game, I showed them around and explained everything. Noone of them kept on playing.
NS2 wont ever have a large community, its an illusion. Compare the playerbase of DotA and SC2 with the playerbase of LoL or CoD. That leads to the conclusion that the mass wants games that got incredibly easy gameplay, so that they can enjoy themself no matter how much effort they put into the game. This cant be achieved for a game with such depth as NS2.
Stop thinking making the game more easy will grant this game a decent playerbase, it wont. It will just be completely destroyed for players who actually like it right now. It may be not the majority, but NS2 is not a game that suits for the maority.
I personally prefer a good competitive shooter with a good core playerbase any time over a crap game with a huge plyerbase. If the devs screw up the balance and ######s up the depth of the game to keep more newbies playing it, i will be the first one who quits playing it. And I bet im not alone.
The problem with almost all the information and suggestions coming from this thread is : they are completely useless.
I've said it once, and I'll say it again; when it comes to how difficult it is to pick up NS, and how opaque certain mechanics can be, we, the veterans, have absolutely no say in the matter. Just now, as people spoke about picking up certain parts of the game as a rookie, I thought back to NS1, and how long it took me to pick up the game and all its complexities. And then I remembered, it was 10 years ago, and I can't remember ###### about how hard it was back then. Strangely, in my mind, it feels like I picked the game up instantly and was competent within the week.
<!--quoteo(post=2054921:date=Jan 2 2013, 04:38 PM:name=VeNeM)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VeNeM @ Jan 2 2013, 04:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2054921"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->not all games can be made the same. how do you simplify a game like ns2? turn it into dungeon defenders? i mean seriously if you cant take name calling, then mommy sheltered you far too much and you need to grow up. welcome to the real world where people dont like you and want to steal your apple juice (and post it on youtube). also, ns2 isnt for everyone, and trying to make it for everyone is just going to ruin it for everyone cause itll be a complete mess.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
OK, I was pretty sure I knew this game and its playerbase pretty well until now. I'm even decent at the game. But...
If this, and all the "learn to play" people are genuinely the general attitude of people, then good luck keeping this game alive more than a couple of months. I'm afraid I can no longer recommend this game to my friends. At first, it was for performance, but I could at least tell people the community makes up for it by being very newbie-friendly. However, if the general sentiment is that it's all supposed to be extremely hard and newbie-unfriendly (NOT, I REPEAT, NOT, always the same thing) then you're never going to get new players - just old NS1 players who hadn't found out about it yet.
Somewhere out there is a change waiting to happen - that doesn't drastically alter the game, doesn't upset balance so much - but makes the game easier for new players to have some fun with, while tantalizing them into exploring the deep strategical metagame. Right now, I don't know what that change will be. But it has to happen before this game gains major traction, if you ask me. Even with all my experience playing, it is clear to me there's no real assistance to new players, and that goes beyond learning.
I am a new player who has no idea what im doing most of the time. I really think the game needs an option to play against retarded bots so you can learn what you are supposed to do before going online and getting destroyed.
<!--quoteo(post=2055109:date=Jan 3 2013, 05:23 AM:name=Katana314)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Katana314 @ Jan 3 2013, 05:23 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2055109"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->OK, I was pretty sure I knew this game and its playerbase pretty well until now. I'm even decent at the game. But...
If this, and all the "learn to play" people are genuinely the general attitude of people, then good luck keeping this game alive more than a couple of months. I'm afraid I can no longer recommend this game to my friends. At first, it was for performance, but I could at least tell people the community makes up for it by being very newbie-friendly. However, if the general sentiment is that it's all supposed to be extremely hard and newbie-unfriendly (NOT, I REPEAT, NOT, always the same thing) then you're never going to get new players - just old NS1 players who hadn't found out about it yet.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I would neither base the game nor the community merely on the forums. Usually, forums are hub for retards all over the world. So far my impression is that the community is in fact very friendly towards new players, at least when I take a look at how the people behave in-game. I hardly see any flame and most of the time - especially on rookie-servers - no one gets blamed for anything. Well, at least nothing really offensively. I guess this game still has a community you can recommend, at least, if you look at how the behave in-game. The forums are the forums ...
<!--quoteo(post=2054913:date=Jan 2 2013, 03:27 PM:name=Bender the Offender)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bender the Offender @ Jan 2 2013, 03:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2054913"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Games used to have a feature that allowed you to experiment with the engine, learn the mechanics, figure out effective methods of gameplay, and hone your skills before engaging in competitive gamesets. What did they call that back in the day? I remember! Single player.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You mean old games like ns1, cs, tf, etc...? Maybe you mean before there were online games?
They aren't going to dumb this game down for new players. If you can't take the time to learn a game, or you get upset when getting killed, this really isn't the game for you. It isn't that hard to pick up. Many people have gotten it down and didn't have anything more than what you gave to work with.
But I like games where investing time gives you benefits.
Seriously most people I come across in game complaining they cant do as well as others or complaining people are too good are just unwilling to listen to advice. There are people I have met in game and instantly added them on friends and despite the fact I rarely ever play pubs, if they are online I will join them and play with them even though they may not be the best players ever... because they want to learn... and each time I play with them I can pass on the tips people have told me and it actually makes me kinda happy watching them learn from these tips as I did when I was told them...
I did this for like 12 hours straight on the launch date, ... I taught people who had literally just bought the game the basics of fade shadow double jumping and skulk wall jumping... They all picked it up pretty quickly...
Maybe people who are struggling with the game just need to ask more questions...
My brother just bought the game: He is OCD FPS CS1.6 Pr0 L33t number 1337... He thinks he is a gaming god and none can surpass his epic leetz0rz. Will he listen to his little brother and learn to play the game? No... Probably never, he will probably never (despite gaming for years and probably being better at the fundimentals than me) learn to play this game well because he will never ask for help and will be too arrogant to listen when it is offered.
<!--quoteo(post=2054921:date=Jan 3 2013, 08:38 AM:name=VeNeM)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VeNeM @ Jan 3 2013, 08:38 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2054921"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->not all games can be made the same. how do you simplify a game like ns2?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
combat. NS1 player base saw a huge boost when UWE introduced combat. This is what most FPS gamers want: non stop respawning, non stop killing, mindless fun.
I say UWE should just make combat the default mode for NS2 so they can keep cashing in on the greens, leave the vanilla NS mode to the pros.
<!--quoteo(post=2055109:date=Jan 3 2013, 12:23 AM:name=Katana314)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Katana314 @ Jan 3 2013, 12:23 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2055109"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->OK, I was pretty sure I knew this game and its playerbase pretty well until now. I'm even decent at the game. But...
If this, and all the "learn to play" people are genuinely the general attitude of people, then good luck keeping this game alive more than a couple of months. I'm afraid I can no longer recommend this game to my friends. At first, it was for performance, but I could at least tell people the community makes up for it by being very newbie-friendly. However, if the general sentiment is that it's all supposed to be extremely hard and newbie-unfriendly (NOT, I REPEAT, NOT, always the same thing) then you're never going to get new players - just old NS1 players who hadn't found out about it yet.
Somewhere out there is a change waiting to happen - that doesn't drastically alter the game, doesn't upset balance so much - but makes the game easier for new players to have some fun with, while tantalizing them into exploring the deep strategical metagame. Right now, I don't know what that change will be. But it has to happen before this game gains major traction, if you ask me. Even with all my experience playing, it is clear to me there's no real assistance to new players, and that goes beyond learning.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
ok then what exactly do you suggest they do there are tut vids, noob servers, the forums (and dont give me "im going to get flamed" bullsht because howto questions are generally answered around here, its the stupid "x" is broken posts that get closed. the screen is literally CLUTTERED with info all game (too much imo). plus there are community mods that add even more. and all of this is still too little? i just dont get it, have you not figured out steam? google? the search bar? just avoid all of these questions and lump it into "mean ole vets".
<!--quoteo(post=2055400:date=Jan 3 2013, 02:22 PM:name=VeNeM)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VeNeM @ Jan 3 2013, 02:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2055400"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->ok then what exactly do you suggest they do there are tut vids, noob servers, the forums (snip) ...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->I think you're missing the point. This is less about how the players learn, and more about how the players are TREATED. No one says you have to do or say anything to rookies, but if a person doesn't have anything nice to say, then say nothing at all. If people did that we would be light years ahead of where we are now.
There seems to be no tolerance for new players who can't learn the game by the time their rookie tag wears off in 4 hours. Ask yourself how long it took you to learn the game, then ask if it is reasonable to expect these people to learn it faster.
The complaints have been about *attitude* towards these new players. You can't fix that by changing the 'rookie', you have to change the 'veteran'.
The amount of complaining in this thread is ridiculous. Less QQ and more pew pew please. I feel like I am reading the WoW forums.
If you're a skulk having a hard time killing marines maybe try not moving in a straight line running directly towards them in their line of fire. Use walls, jump and engage marines in areas of the map which are advantageous to you. Don't be a hero and solo engage 3 marines. Mob together. A pack of skulks is extremely deadly.
If you're a marine and you're having a hard time hitting or killing skulks/higher life forms, adjust your mouse sensitivity. Make sure it is at a comfortable setting for you. Learning how aliens move is crucial to the game as marines. Dont spray and pray. This isnt counter-strike. You dont have an AK-47. Reload whenever you can to ensure you have the most bullets possible. When you run out of ammo from your LMG/shotty, use your pistol! The pistol does insane dps!
Do not meander off alone however if you do, use sound! Aliens arent exactly known for their stealthiness when they're running and marines sprinting arent exactly quiet either. It is easy to locate where someone is coming from if you listen.
This game is a headphone game. Dont bother playing it if you're running speakers.
Coordinate attacks, be vocal! Talk to your teammates. If your commander blows, eject him.
Bottom line is practice makes perfect. I have just under 90 hours of game time played and I still consider myself a noob.
<!--quoteo(post=2055427:date=Jan 4 2013, 05:09 AM:name=Savant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Savant @ Jan 4 2013, 05:09 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2055427"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think you're missing the point. This is less about how the players learn, and more about how the players are TREATED.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
* don't bother to watch the tutorials * join non-rookie servers * jump in cc/hive to play comm and have no idea wtf is going on * refuse to use a mic
how would you like to be treated? God helps those who help themselves.
I disagree 100%. I actually believe this game is friendly for new players. Now, it does lack a tutorial, which would help, but having a commander who tells you what to do is very helpful. I learned everything about the game very quickly.
"All the best games are easy to learn and difficult to master. They should reward the first quarter and the hundredth."
-Nolan Bushnell
We are aware of the steep learning curve, and it's something we think about a lot. To fix it properly will take time and resources, and as a small company, it's a big challenge for us. But we're doing our best :)
<!--quoteo(post=2055394:date=Jan 3 2013, 05:15 PM:name=lumina)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (lumina @ Jan 3 2013, 05:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2055394"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You mean old games like ns1, cs, tf, etc...? Maybe you mean before there were online games?
They aren't going to dumb this game down for new players. If you can't take the time to learn a game, or you get upset when getting killed, this really isn't the game for you. It isn't that hard to pick up. Many people have gotten it down and didn't have anything more than what you gave to work with.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Again: adding more in-game tooltips, advices, hints, etc. does <b>not</b> mean to dump down the game. There's no logical connection between the words <i>complex</i> and <i>complicated</i> in this sense. Though NS2 is without any doubt a complex game it does <b>not</b> mean that it has to be complicated to learn. There's a good reason why in the <i>good ol' days</i> there were printed manuals and why complex games like Empire:Total War have several in-game features, mechanisms, tooltips, tutorials, etc. which are means to help players learn the game.
NS2 is really in no position to frighten away new customers because they simply don't understand what they're supposed to do and I can understand anyone who buys a new game and is in no mood to sit down and learn for NS2. They wan't to relax. I can relax when I play Shogun2 because, even though this game is without any doubt more complex than NS2, it gives me a lot of feedback and explanations how to play it. If I'd had to watch videos on youtube, ask other players via forums and chat, I'd probably wouldn't play it. I mean, just adding in-game tooltips that tell you what each buildings does what be a great help. The less time you spend out-of-game and the more time you can stay in-game, the better and the more fun it is.
Again: <i>complex</i> and <i>complicated</i> are to different terms. Making a game more friendly for new players by adding more in-game help does not mean to dump it down!
Shaamaan, if pressing 'c' is too hard for you, I don't care.
I think you will do very well, once you realise that rushing headlong into an entrenched position works if you do it with other skulks. Just be prepared to be the cannon fodder. Sorry, this isn't Sniper Elite 2.
You realise you can possibly not get a positive k:d ratio and still 'win' the game right?
As Elodea pointed out, UWE should have the ONLY loading-tip read 'press c for map' untill you lose your green status.
I like the idea of retarded bots, could have called it 'single player' or 'skirmish' or something. Even if they were all floor fades etc, it would have been *familiar* for new customers.
Bots would be awesome for a lot of reasons. It's probably a lot of work given their limited manpower though. Seems like a good goal for a community mod project.
I've been playing this game since NS1-1.04 and sometimes I want to uninstall the game. There are to mny people claiming to be 'experts'. There are alot of expierienced players without a freaking CLUE! The use of microphone and 'clan_cliques' has caused a kind of intellectual inbreeding, especially for marine team. Which is of no surprise to me as during development I observed alot of players trying to manipulate data to get an unfair-advantage over the game dynamics.. If you can aim and shoot then you are ready to play. The issue for Marines (rookies) is probably grouping. Tell them to spread out but to keep each-other covered, and CLEAR SPAWN AREA!
Comments
not all games can be made the same. how do you simplify a game like ns2? turn it into dungeon defenders? i mean seriously if you cant take name calling, then mommy sheltered you far too much and you need to grow up. welcome to the real world where people dont like you and want to steal your apple juice (and post it on youtube). also, ns2 isnt for everyone, and trying to make it for everyone is just going to ruin it for everyone cause itll be a complete mess.
I think Golf would like to have a word with you. ;)
They are not having fun because they're dying constantly and losing alot. This is L2P no matter how you slice it. Adding fun is not simply a case of e.g. static buffing marines to raise skill floors. Up to a certain point, it makes no sense to cater to those unwilling to figure out how the game is played. Yes there are things inherently not fun in NS2 that contribute to newb unfriendliness, although basically all recent posts on the topic have failed to identify them. Yes L2P is not always appropriate, but in the specific case of the threads that have been popping up recently, it is.
Take a random group of people off the street who have never played football before and put them up against Manchester united. I'm not sure they're going to have alot of fun getting absolutely stomped (let's assume they don't). Should we conclude the grass is unfriendly to new players because it gives the other team too much of an advantage, and so we should turn it into mud? That rule about handballing, its pretty unfriendly to new players, we should remove that too.
*edit*
This is the unfortunate nature of assymetric balance. Players generally tend to first blame factors besides themselves for their losses. Symmetric games deny players from pointing the finger at a mechanical imbalance because intuitively it makes no sense to do so. Both players had the same symmetric opportunities and restrictions. Assymetric balance is much harder to understand, and so you're always going to get people blaming some assymetric difference for their lack of fun without thinking further.
It's multiplayer only. If you don't attract new players, the game stagnates and dies. Also, grow up? This is a video game forum. There will be no maturity shown here =P
Exactly. There is no place to learn how to play and the "rookie friendly" servers don't kick experienced players out. People who have logged few hours and have little experience should have separate servers so they can figure out what's going on before being expected to compete against experienced people. Once someone demonstrates an appreciable level of skill and knowledge, bar them from the kiddie pool.
special snowball ammo that only freezes players with high kdr so they can be killed (or better shattered into a zillion pieces)
high kdr players enter special drunk on power intoxicated mode & stagger around like in witcher. drunken master side effect - if hit, the rifle butt can one shot an onos
:o
:)
IMO a lot of people just dont want to admit they need to l2p, we're all rambo. This isnt even a new thing to FPS, doomguy and quakeguy are way more rambo than rambo himself.
Hehe, unfortunatly the average age of a male gamer in Australia 2012 is: 32.
Bloody ancient!
PS, more serious to OP: We have rookie friendly servers, if you jump in comm and get flamed or whatever for being new, point out its a newbie server. Those servers are there for *you*, make what you will of them. Remember, average age 32, you are not likely to be 16, so if you want to learn as an adult, you must *go about achieving that yourself* ... as an adult, if I thought I could just walk into a store, by an Ipad and instantly know how to mail merge over bluetooth simply because 'I paid for it' ... I certainly wouldn't expect to be enrolled in free tutorials. Duh.
You are an adult, on Earth, challanges abound in life, if you want to learn NS2, get off your butt and do so. I have ~370 hours on NS2, do you think I would have learned a comparable amount by watching a 2 hour tutorial from UWE? No.
And if people think single player helps at multi, beyond game mechanics (which you learn the same in SP and MP, in fact you just wasted 10 hours learning nothing new by playing SP) I have a couple of counter examples: C&C/Red Alert, Dawn of War 1 & 2, Far Cry 2, Bioshock. Hell, if your not playing Co-op, single wont teach you jack about multi!
They died down over time
Probably should have introduced them again with the christmas sale
NS2 wont ever have a large community, its an illusion. Compare the playerbase of DotA and SC2 with the playerbase of LoL or CoD. That leads to the conclusion that the mass wants games that got incredibly easy gameplay, so that they can enjoy themself no matter how much effort they put into the game. This cant be achieved for a game with such depth as NS2.
Stop thinking making the game more easy will grant this game a decent playerbase, it wont. It will just be completely destroyed for players who actually like it right now. It may be not the majority, but NS2 is not a game that suits for the maority.
I personally prefer a good competitive shooter with a good core playerbase any time over a crap game with a huge plyerbase. If the devs screw up the balance and ######s up the depth of the game to keep more newbies playing it, i will be the first one who quits playing it. And I bet im not alone.
I've said it once, and I'll say it again; when it comes to how difficult it is to pick up NS, and how opaque certain mechanics can be, we, the veterans, have absolutely no say in the matter. Just now, as people spoke about picking up certain parts of the game as a rookie, I thought back to NS1, and how long it took me to pick up the game and all its complexities. And then I remembered, it was 10 years ago, and I can't remember ###### about how hard it was back then. Strangely, in my mind, it feels like I picked the game up instantly and was competent within the week.
I don't think that was the case though.
OK, I was pretty sure I knew this game and its playerbase pretty well until now. I'm even decent at the game. But...
If this, and all the "learn to play" people are genuinely the general attitude of people, then good luck keeping this game alive more than a couple of months. I'm afraid I can no longer recommend this game to my friends. At first, it was for performance, but I could at least tell people the community makes up for it by being very newbie-friendly. However, if the general sentiment is that it's all supposed to be extremely hard and newbie-unfriendly (NOT, I REPEAT, NOT, always the same thing) then you're never going to get new players - just old NS1 players who hadn't found out about it yet.
Somewhere out there is a change waiting to happen - that doesn't drastically alter the game, doesn't upset balance so much - but makes the game easier for new players to have some fun with, while tantalizing them into exploring the deep strategical metagame. Right now, I don't know what that change will be. But it has to happen before this game gains major traction, if you ask me. Even with all my experience playing, it is clear to me there's no real assistance to new players, and that goes beyond learning.
If this, and all the "learn to play" people are genuinely the general attitude of people, then good luck keeping this game alive more than a couple of months. I'm afraid I can no longer recommend this game to my friends. At first, it was for performance, but I could at least tell people the community makes up for it by being very newbie-friendly. However, if the general sentiment is that it's all supposed to be extremely hard and newbie-unfriendly (NOT, I REPEAT, NOT, always the same thing) then you're never going to get new players - just old NS1 players who hadn't found out about it yet.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I would neither base the game nor the community merely on the forums. Usually, forums are hub for retards all over the world. So far my impression is that the community is in fact very friendly towards new players, at least when I take a look at how the people behave in-game. I hardly see any flame and most of the time - especially on rookie-servers - no one gets blamed for anything. Well, at least nothing really offensively. I guess this game still has a community you can recommend, at least, if you look at how the behave in-game. The forums are the forums ...
You mean old games like ns1, cs, tf, etc...? Maybe you mean before there were online games?
They aren't going to dumb this game down for new players. If you can't take the time to learn a game, or you get upset when getting killed, this really isn't the game for you. It isn't that hard to pick up. Many people have gotten it down and didn't have anything more than what you gave to work with.
But I like games where investing time gives you benefits.
Seriously most people I come across in game complaining they cant do as well as others or complaining people are too good are just unwilling to listen to advice.
There are people I have met in game and instantly added them on friends and despite the fact I rarely ever play pubs, if they are online I will join them and play with them even though they may not be the best players ever... because they want to learn... and each time I play with them I can pass on the tips people have told me and it actually makes me kinda happy watching them learn from these tips as I did when I was told them...
I did this for like 12 hours straight on the launch date, ... I taught people who had literally just bought the game the basics of fade shadow double jumping and skulk wall jumping... They all picked it up pretty quickly...
Maybe people who are struggling with the game just need to ask more questions...
My brother just bought the game: He is OCD FPS CS1.6 Pr0 L33t number 1337... He thinks he is a gaming god and none can surpass his epic leetz0rz.
Will he listen to his little brother and learn to play the game? No... Probably never, he will probably never (despite gaming for years and probably being better at the fundimentals than me) learn to play this game well because he will never ask for help and will be too arrogant to listen when it is offered.
Go figure huh...
combat. NS1 player base saw a huge boost when UWE introduced combat. This is what most FPS gamers want: non stop respawning, non stop killing, mindless fun.
I say UWE should just make combat the default mode for NS2 so they can keep cashing in on the greens, leave the vanilla NS mode to the pros.
If this, and all the "learn to play" people are genuinely the general attitude of people, then good luck keeping this game alive more than a couple of months. I'm afraid I can no longer recommend this game to my friends. At first, it was for performance, but I could at least tell people the community makes up for it by being very newbie-friendly. However, if the general sentiment is that it's all supposed to be extremely hard and newbie-unfriendly (NOT, I REPEAT, NOT, always the same thing) then you're never going to get new players - just old NS1 players who hadn't found out about it yet.
Somewhere out there is a change waiting to happen - that doesn't drastically alter the game, doesn't upset balance so much - but makes the game easier for new players to have some fun with, while tantalizing them into exploring the deep strategical metagame. Right now, I don't know what that change will be. But it has to happen before this game gains major traction, if you ask me. Even with all my experience playing, it is clear to me there's no real assistance to new players, and that goes beyond learning.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
ok then what exactly do you suggest they do
there are tut vids, noob servers, the forums (and dont give me "im going to get flamed" bullsht because howto questions are generally answered around here, its the stupid "x" is broken posts that get closed. the screen is literally CLUTTERED with info all game (too much imo). plus there are community mods that add even more. and all of this is still too little? i just dont get it, have you not figured out steam? google? the search bar? just avoid all of these questions and lump it into "mean ole vets".
there are tut vids, noob servers, the forums (snip) ...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->I think you're missing the point. This is less about how the players learn, and more about how the players are TREATED. No one says you have to do or say anything to rookies, but if a person doesn't have anything nice to say, then say nothing at all. If people did that we would be light years ahead of where we are now.
There seems to be no tolerance for new players who can't learn the game by the time their rookie tag wears off in 4 hours. Ask yourself how long it took you to learn the game, then ask if it is reasonable to expect these people to learn it faster.
The complaints have been about *attitude* towards these new players. You can't fix that by changing the 'rookie', you have to change the 'veteran'.
If you're a skulk having a hard time killing marines maybe try not moving in a straight line running directly towards them in their line of fire. Use walls, jump and engage marines in areas of the map which are advantageous to you. Don't be a hero and solo engage 3 marines. Mob together. A pack of skulks is extremely deadly.
If you're a marine and you're having a hard time hitting or killing skulks/higher life forms, adjust your mouse sensitivity. Make sure it is at a comfortable setting for you. Learning how aliens move is crucial to the game as marines. Dont spray and pray. This isnt counter-strike. You dont have an AK-47. Reload whenever you can to ensure you have the most bullets possible. When you run out of ammo from your LMG/shotty, use your pistol! The pistol does insane dps!
Do not meander off alone however if you do, use sound! Aliens arent exactly known for their stealthiness when they're running and marines sprinting arent exactly quiet either. It is easy to locate where someone is coming from if you listen.
This game is a headphone game. Dont bother playing it if you're running speakers.
Coordinate attacks, be vocal! Talk to your teammates. If your commander blows, eject him.
Bottom line is practice makes perfect. I have just under 90 hours of game time played and I still consider myself a noob.
* don't bother to watch the tutorials
* join non-rookie servers
* jump in cc/hive to play comm and have no idea wtf is going on
* refuse to use a mic
how would you like to be treated? God helps those who help themselves.
-Nolan Bushnell
We are aware of the steep learning curve, and it's something we think about a lot. To fix it properly will take time and resources, and as a small company, it's a big challenge for us. But we're doing our best :)
They aren't going to dumb this game down for new players. If you can't take the time to learn a game, or you get upset when getting killed, this really isn't the game for you. It isn't that hard to pick up. Many people have gotten it down and didn't have anything more than what you gave to work with.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Again: adding more in-game tooltips, advices, hints, etc. does <b>not</b> mean to dump down the game. There's no logical connection between the words <i>complex</i> and <i>complicated</i> in this sense. Though NS2 is without any doubt a complex game it does <b>not</b> mean that it has to be complicated to learn. There's a good reason why in the <i>good ol' days</i> there were printed manuals and why complex games like Empire:Total War have several in-game features, mechanisms, tooltips, tutorials, etc. which are means to help players learn the game.
NS2 is really in no position to frighten away new customers because they simply don't understand what they're supposed to do and I can understand anyone who buys a new game and is in no mood to sit down and learn for NS2. They wan't to relax. I can relax when I play Shogun2 because, even though this game is without any doubt more complex than NS2, it gives me a lot of feedback and explanations how to play it. If I'd had to watch videos on youtube, ask other players via forums and chat, I'd probably wouldn't play it. I mean, just adding in-game tooltips that tell you what each buildings does what be a great help. The less time you spend out-of-game and the more time you can stay in-game, the better and the more fun it is.
Again: <i>complex</i> and <i>complicated</i> are to different terms. Making a game more friendly for new players by adding more in-game help does not mean to dump it down!
I think you will do very well, once you realise that rushing headlong into an entrenched position works if you do it with other skulks. Just be prepared to be the cannon fodder. Sorry, this isn't Sniper Elite 2.
You realise you can possibly not get a positive k:d ratio and still 'win' the game right?
As Elodea pointed out, UWE should have the ONLY loading-tip read 'press c for map' untill you lose your green status.
The use of microphone and 'clan_cliques' has caused a kind of intellectual inbreeding, especially for marine team. Which is of no surprise to me as during development I observed alot of players trying to manipulate data to get an unfair-advantage over the game dynamics..
If you can aim and shoot then you are ready to play.
The issue for Marines (rookies) is probably grouping. Tell them to spread out but to keep each-other covered, and CLEAR SPAWN AREA!
This is NOT the finished product.