Bile Bomb Rushes and the Marine Comm
Gorgenapper
Join Date: 2012-09-05 Member: 157916Members, Reinforced - Shadow
Join Date: 2012-09-05 Member: 157916Members, Reinforced - Shadow
<div class="IPBDescription">Defense is important for marines too...</div>
[b]UPDATED FOR 240[/b]
A friendly tip from a gorgie to marine commanders: how to defend against bile bomb rushes towards the mid/end game. A bile bomb rush by 1 - 3 (sometimes 4 or 5) gorges is able to wipe a base off the map in seconds. This leads some people to whine about OP gorges and bile bomb, and how they should be nerfed. In most cases, marines lose the game because one of their bases get nuked by gorges.
As a very experienced ninja bile gorge from NS1 and NS2, I have to say that most marine bases are insufficiently defended. By that, I mean that there are sentries, the buildings are poorly placed, there are not enough observatories in the right places, certain vents/entrances are not blocked off, there are no marines actively patrolling, and the commander doesn't know how to defend.
<u>Sentries</u>
If you make sentries, you've basically lost 20 res the moment a bile gorge walks in your base. Sentries and their batteries have low armor/HP and are destroyed in as little as 5 bile bombs. Don't waste res on sentries unless you're absolutely swimming in res at end game, and you've researched nearly everything, or if you have a strong forward base where your marines are putting pressure on the hive (and then only if you have very good res flow).
<u>Poor building placement:</u>
When you put your juicy 40 res protolab right next to your advanced armory and IPs, there might as well be a bright neon sign pointing 'BILE HERE' right over those structures. Space your structures out, don't pack them all together. Put your phase gate away from your observatory. Make your second arms lab in your other base. Stuff like this helps to mitigate the bile bomb damage.
<u>Not enough obs/poor obs placement</u>
[IMG]http://i853.photobucket.com/albums/ab96/Elusivellama/E37DC7B7-9B39-49BC-8341-FE75FA20970C-2403-000003C34DE9A872_zps0c62dcb3.jpg[/IMG]
ns2_veil picture... left side is typical obs placement. Right side is ideal obs placement.
Most marine comms drop one obs per base, and they put it in a central location to 'cover' the whole base, or they stick it in the back of the base to safeguard it. This is not enough. If you have an obs in the back of the base and its scan radius extends off the map, you won't be able to use it to see aliens rushing your base. There are blind spots which aliens can (and do) exploit in order to camo into base and set up for a surprise bile rush. Sometimes, if camo is not available, you can skulk-sneak behind a box or a counter, evolve into a gorge there and rush the base. The solution is to have multiple obs in every important built-up base placed in such a way as to give you advance warning for a bile rush. Ideally, the obs should be placed so that the scan radius extends as far as possible outwards to give you sufficient advance warning. For example... Repair Room in ns2_tram. Place your 1st obs near the vent between Ore Processing and Repair Room. This covers the vent and the little corridor leading to Ore Processing. As res permits, place another obs in the corner of the res node so you can see anything in that corridor leading up from Logistics. If you REALLY want to defend Repair Room, place a THIRD obs right in the corner around the doorway that leads to Hub. This seems like a 'waste' of 15 - 30 res, but losing your base because you didn't see a gorge bile rush coming is even more of a waste.
<u>Blocking vents/entrances</u>
Some call this a 'cheap' tactic, but you can say the same for a gorge bile rush. For example, in Flow Control on ns2_refinery, the doorway leading to Lava Falls is a great place to drop a robotics factory to block it off. Robotics factories have a good amount of armor/health, they can be rotated to cover more of a doorway and they're large and they're too tall for gorges with their stubby legs to jump over.
<u>No marines actively patrolling</u>
Most marines are out of base pushing a hive at mid/end game, or doing ninja tactics, or building between the bases. However, one of the biggest reasons why bile rushes succeed is because there are no marines to defend the base when it DOES happen. By the time they spawn back in, or phase back, the damage has already been done. All you need is one or two vigilant base defenders phasing between bases, welding stuff, checking the map, listening for gorge noises (ESPECIALLY babblers!), etc. On larger servers (12 v 12), we sometimes have at least one dual exo per base (with MAC support) as a deterrant, and one marine running between bases to build/weld. This recommendation isn't always possible, of course, as some pushes require more effort than others, but from my perspective as a bile gorge I love to attack the bases which have no defense.
<u>Commander doesn't know how to defend</u>
The best defense is a good offense. Some commanders take this too much to heart. A big scary exo/arc push to a hive may make it seem like you're occupying the whole alien team, but there are some gorges (like myself) who also realize that there is no better time for a bile gorge to nuke a base. So, how DO commanders defend against this?
1) Scan the areas outside of the observatories' radii every now and then. Scan the alien hives as well and look for a mass concentration of onos/gorges.
2) 1-S, 2-S, 3-S. Hotkey your base observatories to 1, 2 and/or 3 (click the obs, hold CTRL and press the number). When you press the hotkey and 'S', that triggers a beacon. Learn to trigger a beacon as quickly as possible, learn WHEN to trigger a beacon, and try to keep enough res in reserve for a beacon.
3) E-D. This is the key combination for nanoshield (2 base ability), which also reduces damage from bile bomb. Use it to protect the power node during a bile rush while you beacon marines, or to protect power nodes/key structures in forward bases. Also use it to protect key marines as needed (ie. the one getting the power back up, the JP shotgunner with great aim, etc.)
This 'tip' somehow turned into a mini guide, which illustrates my overall point - base defense tends to become a priority for marines AFTER they've been pushed back to just 1 - 2 bases. Before that disastrous point in the game, marines tend to think only about attacking....which can be a big mistake towards mid-game and onwards.
[b]UPDATED FOR 240[/b]
A friendly tip from a gorgie to marine commanders: how to defend against bile bomb rushes towards the mid/end game. A bile bomb rush by 1 - 3 (sometimes 4 or 5) gorges is able to wipe a base off the map in seconds. This leads some people to whine about OP gorges and bile bomb, and how they should be nerfed. In most cases, marines lose the game because one of their bases get nuked by gorges.
As a very experienced ninja bile gorge from NS1 and NS2, I have to say that most marine bases are insufficiently defended. By that, I mean that there are sentries, the buildings are poorly placed, there are not enough observatories in the right places, certain vents/entrances are not blocked off, there are no marines actively patrolling, and the commander doesn't know how to defend.
<u>Sentries</u>
If you make sentries, you've basically lost 20 res the moment a bile gorge walks in your base. Sentries and their batteries have low armor/HP and are destroyed in as little as 5 bile bombs. Don't waste res on sentries unless you're absolutely swimming in res at end game, and you've researched nearly everything, or if you have a strong forward base where your marines are putting pressure on the hive (and then only if you have very good res flow).
<u>Poor building placement:</u>
When you put your juicy 40 res protolab right next to your advanced armory and IPs, there might as well be a bright neon sign pointing 'BILE HERE' right over those structures. Space your structures out, don't pack them all together. Put your phase gate away from your observatory. Make your second arms lab in your other base. Stuff like this helps to mitigate the bile bomb damage.
<u>Not enough obs/poor obs placement</u>
[IMG]http://i853.photobucket.com/albums/ab96/Elusivellama/E37DC7B7-9B39-49BC-8341-FE75FA20970C-2403-000003C34DE9A872_zps0c62dcb3.jpg[/IMG]
ns2_veil picture... left side is typical obs placement. Right side is ideal obs placement.
Most marine comms drop one obs per base, and they put it in a central location to 'cover' the whole base, or they stick it in the back of the base to safeguard it. This is not enough. If you have an obs in the back of the base and its scan radius extends off the map, you won't be able to use it to see aliens rushing your base. There are blind spots which aliens can (and do) exploit in order to camo into base and set up for a surprise bile rush. Sometimes, if camo is not available, you can skulk-sneak behind a box or a counter, evolve into a gorge there and rush the base. The solution is to have multiple obs in every important built-up base placed in such a way as to give you advance warning for a bile rush. Ideally, the obs should be placed so that the scan radius extends as far as possible outwards to give you sufficient advance warning. For example... Repair Room in ns2_tram. Place your 1st obs near the vent between Ore Processing and Repair Room. This covers the vent and the little corridor leading to Ore Processing. As res permits, place another obs in the corner of the res node so you can see anything in that corridor leading up from Logistics. If you REALLY want to defend Repair Room, place a THIRD obs right in the corner around the doorway that leads to Hub. This seems like a 'waste' of 15 - 30 res, but losing your base because you didn't see a gorge bile rush coming is even more of a waste.
<u>Blocking vents/entrances</u>
Some call this a 'cheap' tactic, but you can say the same for a gorge bile rush. For example, in Flow Control on ns2_refinery, the doorway leading to Lava Falls is a great place to drop a robotics factory to block it off. Robotics factories have a good amount of armor/health, they can be rotated to cover more of a doorway and they're large and they're too tall for gorges with their stubby legs to jump over.
<u>No marines actively patrolling</u>
Most marines are out of base pushing a hive at mid/end game, or doing ninja tactics, or building between the bases. However, one of the biggest reasons why bile rushes succeed is because there are no marines to defend the base when it DOES happen. By the time they spawn back in, or phase back, the damage has already been done. All you need is one or two vigilant base defenders phasing between bases, welding stuff, checking the map, listening for gorge noises (ESPECIALLY babblers!), etc. On larger servers (12 v 12), we sometimes have at least one dual exo per base (with MAC support) as a deterrant, and one marine running between bases to build/weld. This recommendation isn't always possible, of course, as some pushes require more effort than others, but from my perspective as a bile gorge I love to attack the bases which have no defense.
<u>Commander doesn't know how to defend</u>
The best defense is a good offense. Some commanders take this too much to heart. A big scary exo/arc push to a hive may make it seem like you're occupying the whole alien team, but there are some gorges (like myself) who also realize that there is no better time for a bile gorge to nuke a base. So, how DO commanders defend against this?
1) Scan the areas outside of the observatories' radii every now and then. Scan the alien hives as well and look for a mass concentration of onos/gorges.
2) 1-S, 2-S, 3-S. Hotkey your base observatories to 1, 2 and/or 3 (click the obs, hold CTRL and press the number). When you press the hotkey and 'S', that triggers a beacon. Learn to trigger a beacon as quickly as possible, learn WHEN to trigger a beacon, and try to keep enough res in reserve for a beacon.
3) E-D. This is the key combination for nanoshield (2 base ability), which also reduces damage from bile bomb. Use it to protect the power node during a bile rush while you beacon marines, or to protect power nodes/key structures in forward bases. Also use it to protect key marines as needed (ie. the one getting the power back up, the JP shotgunner with great aim, etc.)
This 'tip' somehow turned into a mini guide, which illustrates my overall point - base defense tends to become a priority for marines AFTER they've been pushed back to just 1 - 2 bases. Before that disastrous point in the game, marines tend to think only about attacking....which can be a big mistake towards mid-game and onwards.
Comments
On a small game 4 or 5 gorges just building Hydras and clogs can take down an entire marine team, tested and validated
Bile bomb is a ######, as intended, if you ignore a gorge biling for even 30 seconds, youre doomed.
On a small game 4 or 5 gorges just building Hydras and clogs can take down an entire marine team, tested and validated.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, I know. But the point of my post is not to talk about a gorge rush in the early game, a tactic which worked in NS1 years before NS2 made its debut. It's about the gorge bile rush against entrenched marine bases, one of the major reasons why marines lose games.
Also, I'm not sure you understand where I'm coming from. I'm not complaining about bile rushes. I'm just showing people how to defend against them and to show that it is NOT overpowered - it's just that marines don't know what to do to take precautions against it.
On a small game 4 or 5 gorges just building Hydras and clogs can take down an entire marine team, tested and validated
Bile bomb is a ######, as intended, if you ignore a gorge biling for even 30 seconds, youre doomed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Until those marines strafe to the left then strafe to the right. Unless you're right on top of the hydras, they will miss every shot.
All in all, this is a nice guide to not losing your base to one Gorge.
However, as the said Gorge... I loathe you.
You will rue this day!
Well, go on. START RUING!
Good guide by the way, very informative, thumbs up
All in all, this is a nice guide to not losing your base to one Gorge.
However, as the said Gorge... I loathe you.
You will rue this day!
Well, go on. START RUING!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
ONE gorge? Last night, I always had a gorge buddy with me and we wrecked marine bases left and right for some or all of the reasons listed in my post. In one game on ns2_summit, we had FOUR gorges wipe out Data Core in under 30 seconds - the marines lost a proto lab, 2 ips, 1 obs, 1 pg, 1 AA and an arms lab.
This would have been avoided if the marine comm had put his obs closer to the doorway leading to Glass Hallway.
As much fun as I have doing successful bile rushes, I feel that there are misconceptions about how bile is 'OP' and repeated acts of gorge-on-base violence is detrimental to the game as a whole - marines start rage quitting, marines cry about aliens being OP, etc. etc.
Rest of it I agree with especially the part about building placement.
Omg.. I have been looking for hotkeys. I was under the asumption it wasnt in yet. This is going to save me alot of headache.
If you make sentries, you've basically lost 20 res the moment a bile gorge walks in your base. Sentries and their batteries have low armor/HP and are destroyed in as little as 4 bile bombs. Don't waste res on sentries unless you're absolutely swimming in res at end game, and you've researched nearly everything.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Correction:
never spend res on sentries.
NEVER!
Even at the end game, when you have res coming out of your ears, that res should be spent on:
MEDPACKS!
Rush a hive with 40 res spent on medpacks / nano-shield, and you will have a team of invincible marines.
Not sure marine commanders frequently make the mistake of "best defense is a good offense" though, as a failure to understand this basic concept of warfare is probably<b> the number one reason</b> marine teams lose. I find myself frequently having to completely ignore commanders in order to make constant attacks against the enemy (particularly rez nodes and upgrades), which results in either the enemy team losing these key structures or sending 2+ players back to deal with me (which is 2+ fewer players attacking my teammates who are in some room constructing buildings.)
This would have been avoided if the marine comm had put his obs closer to the doorway leading to Glass Hallway.
As much fun as I have doing successful bile rushes, I feel that there are misconceptions about how bile is 'OP' and repeated acts of gorge-on-base violence is detrimental to the game as a whole - marines start rage quitting, marines cry about aliens being OP, etc. etc.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
One of my favorite wins was convincing my entire team to go Gorge. 6-8 Gorges all running in, spitting down marines, then building hydra walls.
Before we even had Bile Bomb, we dropped all of our hydras on their IPs before they came back. They countered this... but Bile Bomb came, and the rush began again!
The entire marine team was locked in Flow Control on Tram. Gorge chuckles everywhere.
Nanogrid:
Place structures in the area under the vent, the gorge will have to expose himself to bile there. Also, a marine on the rt can see into the vent, + nano shield on powernode to buy plenty of time.
Test it out. Gorge in there, stand at the very back edge and a marine can peg you down from the hallway, even if he's not visible to you.
Test it out. Gorge in there, stand at the very back edge and a marine can peg you down from the hallway, even if he's not visible to you.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You don't bile from the very top bit. You place a clog just below in the bit going up to the top surface/vent-opening and bile from there. Unless that's where you're talking about, though I've never been killed there without a GL or jetpack, apart from once when I made the clog slightly too high and didn't bother to correct cause I didn't think it'd matter.
That nanogrid vent thing isn't a problem with bile bomb though. That's a problem with bad power-node placement or with the design of the vent itself.
Get a marine to crouch at vent entrance, which allows another marine to climb on-top to get into the vent and kill the gorge.
Why the fuss over getting grenade launchers, its not like it takes a long time or costs a lot of res to get them, after all bile bomb requires a second hive and needs researched, so it seems pretty fair that the marines need to upgrade, to keep up.
Anyway its still far easier for marines hold nano, and its still piss easy for the marines to arc.
It wasn't overpowered in NS1 because of the relative size of the maps, and because the resource system didn't allow for nonchallant spending of 10 resources.
In an NS2 map, you can literally go gorge in your hive room and walk 10 feet to the marine base and starting biling the ###### out of it. Getting to the marine's spawn in NS1 required a journey akin to the pilgrimage to Mecca.
Also, due to players needing to erect structures, this made high end life forms more rare. This meant that resource wasting was also a very bad idea. Whereas now you can just ask the commander for a gorge egg, or indeed just spend your 40 or 50 res on 5 gorges. Not saying the current resource system is better or worse, just saying that its a reason why gorges can afford to suicide, and do so much damage in the process.
Yup, that's some mighty fine balance there.
Yup, that's some mighty fine balance there.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If this were true, then yes, balance would be a bit wonky. Good thing it isn't true.
Yup, that's some mighty fine balance there.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Would you rather have your double shift/cele/shade die to a single arc scan? You won't have to worry about placement then!
-Sentries simply use the standard powergrid instead of the pack.
-The return of powerpacks. They will serve as backup power for some nearby structures. ( maybe for a certain amount of time? )
This will allow you to hide important stuff like Observatories and phasegates, and keep them powered a bit longer when the main powergrid is destroyed.
This will give smart commanders and marines more time to respond to rushes if they use it right.
One marine defending your base and you are safe.
A single marine.
Oh the poor marine team, such complex tactics are required.
Personally, as a gorge, I find bile a powerful weapon, but I can't usually actually kill things unless the area is signifignatly contended and I have a bit of time to do my work without being shot to death. As a marine commander I find bilebomb an annoyance, but I rarely feel it's the primary factor in my defeat (although granted, my building tactics, which I've carried over from NS1, don't lend for the best bile targets being easily available) I generally feel like building a mac in the next couple minutes or tres dropping a couple welders solves the "problem".
I can only recall one time where I had an obs go down to bile bomb before I could beacon successfully, and I recall skulks biting it as well.
I'm going to say that it definitely does stack... I think. I'm pretty sure that once you get 4 or so bile bombs on the target it starts losing health considerably faster, but I think it only stacks 4 times.
As gorge, I really enjoy doing ninja missions in marine bases, but I rarely do massive amounts of damage. Their certainly isn't enough time to take down a power node against half competent marines, especially since the power node itself offers no cover. My priority target is typically the advanced armory, in an attempt to delay exos or jetpacks.
2 gorge's with adrenaline spam biles on the powernode. Power down in a few seconds.
One marine is not enough to defend this, because if he manages to kill one gorge the other gorge has enough time to put the last biles in.
And if its a bad marine, he probably doesnt kill a gorge and poops his pants in the dark and gets a gorge-breath-death.
Yup, that's some mighty fine balance there.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's the same as alien commanders putting their upgrade structures out in plain view and near the entrance to the hive, or forgetting to cyst a portion of the map (allowing for ninja PGs), or putting whips too far back to be useful, or not supporting a tech point push with a forward mini base, or putting a cyst too far from the resource nozzle and having to wait that extra 10 seconds for the infestation to reach the nozzle.
Structure placement for marine commanders is not much different from any other RTS game, there is a good way to place them, and a bad way to place them.
A few public games Ive been told to stop hanging round the base only for it to be hit 1 min after I left.
Personally, as a gorge, I find bile a powerful weapon, but I can't usually actually kill things unless the area is signifignatly contended and I have a bit of time to do my work without being shot to death. As a marine commander I find bilebomb an annoyance, but I rarely feel it's the primary factor in my defeat (although granted, my building tactics, which I've carried over from NS1, don't lend for the best bile targets being easily available) I generally feel like building a mac in the next couple minutes or tres dropping a couple welders solves the "problem".
I can only recall one time where I had an obs go down to bile bomb before I could beacon successfully, and I recall skulks biting it as well.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It all stacks, even bile bombs from different gorges, and it is a serious threat if you have a coordinated rush. <b>Teamwork is the 'OP' element here, not the gorge or the bile bomb itself.</b> A lone gorge charging across the map and getting shot half to death before he reaches bile bomb range is not a threat. Two or more gorges finding a hiding spot near (or even *IN*) the marine base gives the marines very little time to react. With adrenaline and carapace, two bile gorges can wipe out 2 - 4 expensive / important structures in seconds. Think obs, pgs, protolab, AA, arms lab.
MACs don't do a thing - bile will hit the MACs as they go to repair, and make them go boom. Welders are only as useful as the marine that has them, and I often see welders lying on the ground because 'it's not a weapon'. Welders can slow down the damage being done to a structure that has been biled, but I have taken out a structure even with a marine welding it simply by focusing all my bombs on it.