Base structure placement is pretty irrelevant when the powernode is stationary. I know that you don't want all your buildings to die at the same time because of Bilebomb, but most late game Bile rushes go straight for the power.
Gorges are only a big problem on large servers because you can commit more Gorges to the rush than normal and because Gorges are only 10 res and you can rush over and over and over and over. I still think that the real culprit is power node system here.
It takes too much time playing, not skill, to realise the importance of C (map). The hive/cc icons (came in big, got smaller) helped new players, maybe sort out some kind of newbie alerts system similar to green name status?
Personally, I believe the commander UI is robust enough to know the difference between a power node in ore processing and a power node in your main/secondary base in warehouse/repair. As the power node is THE important structure in pugs and sometimes in competitive play, maybe having an alarm for "structure under attack" and OUR POWER NODE IS DYING AND WE ARE GOING TO LOSE THE GAME would be better.
The CC's health is shown when it is under attack for all marines (and hives for aliens) but realistically, if a powernode goes down without at least 3 marines already there the base is basically as good as dead. Maybe have a seperate alert system for commanders AND marines that show the power node's health? Maybe it can play that suspenseful music that occurs when your CC is going down as well and we can watch the health bar go down from bile. I think that would fix the notification problem.
It takes too much time playing, not skill, to realise the importance of C (map). The hive/cc icons (came in big, got smaller) helped new players, maybe sort out some kind of newbie alerts system similar to green name status?
Personally, I believe the commander UI is robust enough to know the difference between a power node in ore processing and a power node in your main/secondary base in warehouse/repair. As the power node is THE important structure in pugs and sometimes in competitive play, maybe having an alarm for "structure under attack" and OUR POWER NODE IS DYING AND WE ARE GOING TO LOSE THE GAME would be better.
The CC's health is shown when it is under attack for all marines (and hives for aliens) but realistically, if a powernode goes down without at least 3 marines already there the base is basically as good as dead. Maybe have a seperate alert system for commanders AND marines that show the power node's health? Maybe it can play that suspenseful music that occurs when your CC is going down as well and we can watch the health bar go down from bile. I think that would fix the notification problem.
As long as we get A notification which works. Right now you only have a obs showing incoming aliens if you placed it ok, and thats not gona cut it.
The gorge itself, as is, is not broken, per se. It is however, too cheap for what it does now. It either needs toning down, or a price hike. Sorry. No one class should be (especially for a paltry 10 res) be able to solo an entire marine base before they can properly respond. Keep in mind that base notifications do NOT ALWAYS FUNCTION when bile is hitting base.
I agree, right now, the gorge is a healer, siege unit, anti exo unit and builder of fortifications. I think that are too many roles for one 10 res alien.
I just played several games on the KKG servers (KKG 4?) on summit & refinery tonight where, as marines, we successfully fended off numerous gorge rushes by placement of at least a secondary obs near an entrance (example, near Pipe Junction entrance in the Data Core tech point...and near the power node in Flow Control on refinery). The obs by themselves won't stop a gorge rush, but we noticed some red dots in Pipe J and I went to investigate. Found 2 gorge eggs right there. I regularly checked Pipe J and helped to stop two more gorge rushes.
After the map switched to refinery, there were numerous attempts to rush Flow Control and Smelting from Exchange (including the broken glass room) and Transit, respectively. Once again, I find gorge eggs quietly growing just outside of the obs range.
I know how frustrating it is to have a gorge rush stopped in its tracks repeatedly by a gorge patrol. I've been on the receiving end of such a patrol several times (ie. getting shot as an egg) and even though 10 res is cheap to re-gorge, repeated failed attempts basically set off a warning flag for the marines. It makes them paranoid to the point of putting up obs to cover 'that one spot' or having some self-appointed marines hunt for the gorge(s). I have played a game on Tram where my repeated attempts at taking out Repair Room eventually resulted in 3 obs to cover all the entrances and vents AND a dual exo camping in base waiting to fill my defenseless gorge hide with hot lead....
Base structure placement is pretty irrelevant when the powernode is stationary. I know that you don't want all your buildings to die at the same time because of Bilebomb, but most late game Bile rushes go straight for the power.
Gorges are only a big problem on large servers because you can commit more Gorges to the rush than normal and because Gorges are only 10 res and you can rush over and over and over and over. I still think that the real culprit is power node system here.
I don't disagree that the power node system can be very frustrating at times. However, I occasionally go for the expensive and annoyingly-long-to-upgrade structures like Protolab (40 res), AA (30 res and a long time to upgrade), Arms Lab (20 res, A/W upgrades), and I completely ignore the power node. My reasoning is that I'm hitting the marines' resources indirectly by taking out these structures which need to be rebuilt, as opposed to a power node which costs nothing and can be repaired in seconds. Hitting the power node and disabling the entire base with no marines around is better...but too often I'm killed right after the power node goes down. Said power node is repaired within 20 seconds by 5 marines that managed to respond to the threat, and it was almost as if I had accomplished nothing by my attack.
...I know how frustrating it is to have a gorge rush stopped in its tracks repeatedly by a gorge patrol. I've been on the receiving end of such a patrol several times (ie. getting shot as an egg) and even though 10 res is cheap to re-gorge, repeated failed attempts basically set off a warning flag for the marines. It makes them paranoid to the point of putting up obs to cover 'that one spot' or having some self-appointed marines hunt for the gorge(s). I have played a game on Tram where my repeated attempts at taking out Repair Room eventually resulted in 3 obs to cover all the entrances and vents AND a dual exo camping in base waiting to fill my defenseless gorge hide with hot lead....
So 3 Obs (45 Res)
1 Dual Exo (75 Res)
125 Res to stop one 10 res lifeform from wiping a base off the map... You can't argue that that's overpowered.
...I know how frustrating it is to have a gorge rush stopped in its tracks repeatedly by a gorge patrol. I've been on the receiving end of such a patrol several times (ie. getting shot as an egg) and even though 10 res is cheap to re-gorge, repeated failed attempts basically set off a warning flag for the marines. It makes them paranoid to the point of putting up obs to cover 'that one spot' or having some self-appointed marines hunt for the gorge(s). I have played a game on Tram where my repeated attempts at taking out Repair Room eventually resulted in 3 obs to cover all the entrances and vents AND a dual exo camping in base waiting to fill my defenseless gorge hide with hot lead....
So 3 Obs (45 Res)
1 Dual Exo (75 Res)
125 Res to stop one 10 res lifeform from wiping a base off the map... You can't argue that that's overpowered.
If its one gorge the comm can hop out him/herself and unload the gun.
You can beacon.
You can phase.
As long as you notice it, that gorge is dead.
And noticing is not the problem of bilebomb, but of the notification system + obs placement.
My biggest beef about bile is that it doesn't scale. You can take out a sentry nest in one hit since bile has to be powerful enough to take on the bigger structures. (I'm also not a fan of the unlimited bile stacks from all gorges being counted too) Bile should scale and do damage based on a percentage of the structures health/armor.
I was there with you gorgenapper in that server the other night, they rushed our main base with 4 gorges a lerk and a skulk. The reason why I think bilebomb has such an outcry is that it always happens most of the time when the marines are making that final push after you hit a wall, that push where its like everyone is working together and winning is in grasp, then the comm calls you back "gorgerush at base" and by the time you look at your mini map your base is flooded and your upgrades turn red. by that time you have no chance to respond to the threat. Bilebomb paired with spores is ridiculous you cant see a gorge you just hear the destruction.
Ive played aliens with 2 of my brothers, we all skype, and the aliens will be losing and hope is lost, Ill say screw it the three of us lets gorge and hit their main. I cant tell you how many games weve won for our team because of that "forget trying to play hard lets take a copout and just win" feeling we get when losing as an alien. when that happens it puts the marines in such a disarray and then if the comm isnt paranoid thats his only armslab you lose upgrades and its just a mess and now with the option to concede it just ends.
off topic worst concede ive seen was on mineshaft, aliens conceded while controlling 2 hives 10 minutes into the game. they had sorting and cave and gave up. thats why i hate concede. haha
They really should lower the AOE of the bilebomb, it's a little ridiculous at the moment.
Bilebomb is particularly problematic lategame when aliens can just replace gorge loss after gorge loss, they can send one suiciding in after another and sooner or later they will succeed. And even if they don't, it'll tie up several marines (particularly when they've built a forward base outside yours) that will not be on the frontline and thus put the marines at an even larger disadvantage against the higher alien lifeforms. (Since they need to outnumber these lifeforms to stand a chance)
There's no immediate fix for this problem, I feel nerfing bilebomb would be too drastic for a problem that only occurs lategame.
I don't disagree that the power node system can be very frustrating at times. However, I occasionally go for the expensive and annoyingly-long-to-upgrade structures like Protolab (40 res), AA (30 res and a long time to upgrade), Arms Lab (20 res, A/W upgrades), and I completely ignore the power node. My reasoning is that I'm hitting the marines' resources indirectly by taking out these structures which need to be rebuilt, as opposed to a power node which costs nothing and can be repaired in seconds. Hitting the power node and disabling the entire base with no marines around is better...but too often I'm killed right after the power node goes down. Said power node is repaired within 20 seconds by 5 marines that managed to respond to the threat, and it was almost as if I had accomplished nothing by my attack.
And most of those structures have less health than a power node so your more likely to kill them before response.
I like how Marine Commanders have to build everything in an exactly perfect spot just to NOT LOSE INSTANTLY.
Yup, that's some mighty fine balance there.
I'll bite, I totally agree with this. As written above, you cannot group structures; that's instant bilebomb death. So where do you build them? Here's a question for you - smelting.
I commanded a game yesterday where we controlled Pipeworks Smelting and Flowcontrol, we had stopped aliens building up in lava falls and generally had the upper hand across most of the map. Then about 4/5 gorges appeared. 2 in conduit/smelting hall + crags + whips. 1 used clog to get into the vent between routing/smelting and 2 in heatsink.
Between the one in vent, and two in hallway at smelting - where can you build any stucture in smelting which cannot be bile-bombed? Without requiring at least 4/5 players to go and clear out two gorges (was a 20player server), so 4 skulks on us constantly as well. Anytime we pulled people from smelting to push heatsink pipe, smelting would be down in 30s, pull people from push into conduit, same situation.
From the vent in smelting you can bilebomb the powernode, the only place you cannot bilebomb is the command chair, which you can easilly bilebomb from the corridor.
Pipeworks, you can bilebomb the powernode from the hallway and even the command chair and anything in that area or between it and the walls. There is literary almost zero free space where you cannot be artillery bilebombed.
So where do I place my buildings, I tried PG's in empty space and transit but the runtime for constant reinforcements to the otherside of the rooms to effectively defend against the gorges is to long. I had forward obs (for about 3 seconds at a time)
I think they could leave it as 2-hive and remove the bile stacking, and maybe add the stacking as a 3 hive ability. that would leave bilebomb open to assault a 3CC marine encampment, but without the totally obscene - 2 gorges arrive, you lost your ENTIRE base situation we see right now
as soon as i saw bilebomb is not overpowered its just marines dont know how to take precautions against it. I lost brain cells.
i mean really?
tell me how often do you see a gorge ( a support unit by the way ) run and jump in marine base bile bombing everything and doing extremely high splash damage. Even for 5-10 seconds, this is devasting. A gorge has ended more games strictly by bile bomb then i can even count.
It has sniper long range, virtually no consequence of use, and does damage over time. the only splash damage marines have is a grenade launcher which you have to be careful where you shoot, PLUS it is countered by whips.
a obs wel well in front of your base and 2 clips in your gun.
You missed "marine waiting in base 24/7." If not a marine waiting in base, then at least 2 Obs as 1 Obs doesn't cover all potential entrances AND give enough warning for a marine to phase back.
DC_DarklingJoin Date: 2003-07-10Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver
you mean we are asuming marines dont spawn in nearly constantly, most puggers aint that good. XD
(you have a point else of course).
I wont say bile can not be really strong, but that is another reason to spread out your base as much as possible. Which should happen anyway for skulk rushes.
If it truly is one gorge, the comm can manage to hop out if not complete suck, depending where the gorge is. (nano shield also helps).
I still think its more of a notification problem, rather then bile itself.
I am for showing what is inrange of a obs, instead of just showing a dot. it would help
I like how Marine Commanders have to build everything in an exactly perfect spot just to NOT LOSE INSTANTLY.
Yup, that's some mighty fine balance there.
I'll bite, I totally agree with this. As written above, you cannot group structures; that's instant bilebomb death. So where do you build them? Here's a question for you - smelting.
I commanded a game yesterday where we controlled Pipeworks Smelting and Flowcontrol, we had stopped aliens building up in lava falls and generally had the upper hand across most of the map. Then about 4/5 gorges appeared. 2 in conduit/smelting hall + crags + whips. 1 used clog to get into the vent between routing/smelting and 2 in heatsink.
Please read the bolded sentence above. Did they appear out of nowhere and nuke your base with no prior warning? Was nobody on the lookout for gorges and actively hunting them?
When I play on marines at mid-end game, most people are caught up in the action. They are out jetpacking or exo-ing around on the front lines. Not me. When I suspect gorge rushes, I check all of my usual hiding spots and usually find a gorge egg or two. Sometimes I find an actual gorge chilling outside of base, and I skin it. I suggest obs spots for the comm based on my knowledge of the map as a bile gorge (and sometimes I get resistance because 'it's a second obs, why do we need it').
Between the one in vent, and two in hallway at smelting - where can you build any stucture in smelting which cannot be bile-bombed? Without requiring at least 4/5 players to go and clear out two gorges (was a 20player server), so 4 skulks on us constantly as well. Anytime we pulled people from smelting to push heatsink pipe, smelting would be down in 30s, pull people from push into conduit, same situation.
ARC push from Pipe with JP and/or Exo support, and regular JP marines push Turbine from Conduit. ARCs effectively augment the number of offensive units that you have, allowing you to pressure the aliens from two fronts at the same time. In this case, you have the advantage of instantaneous travel while aliens have to spawn randomly somewhere, evolve and run to whichever side is under most pressure.
So, as I said - where do I build?
If this isn't a rhethorical question...
In smelting:
Obs directly north of the comm station spot, but not in front of the vent. This covers the vent, and woe to you if you do not respond to any red dots moving around in there. Obs up on the little platform to the south of the smelting power node. This covers a good portion of the hallway to Transit. This leaves the hallway to conduit unobserved. Res permitting, obs behind the res node in smelting, this covers the last area. I would also regularly scan the areas just outside of obs range near your important bases. This is assuming you have the upper hand (as you had stated) and your marines are upgraded, etc.
In flow control:
Obs in the upper right, next to the power node (place it a little south of the power node, to help cover more of the broken glass room adjoining Flow Control). This covers a good portion of Falls Approach stairway and that annoying vent between FA and Exchange. Hell, drop an armory or something to block that doorway off completely. It'll buy you about 5 seconds at least, longer if you nanoshield the armory when gorges rush it. Res permitting, backup obs directly north of the comm station to the upper left.
I know what some people are thinking when I make suggestions for 'multiple obs', something along the lines of 'waste of res' and 'unnecessary'. I assure you that nothing fills my heart with more glee than seeing a base with one obs either placed poorly (scan radius wasted off the edge of the map) or covering only one entrance, leaving the other entrance completely open. For example, smelting....an obs up near the comm station or res node covers that part, but makes Transit a quiet breeding ground for those sneaky gorges. Hell, it lets gorges evolve on the roof of smelting, never mind Transit.
So, basically, the best way to fight off a gorge rush is to see it coming before it becomes a threat:
1) Anticipate that it'll happen. When things are too quiet near your bases, that's when you should be most paranoid.
2) Obs placement.
3) Scans.
4) Marines that investigate strange gestating/regeneration noises near your base. I'm constantly amazed that marines don't hear these noises, or if they do, they ignore it and run elsewhere.
Haven't read all the subsequent posts but the original post seems to prove that bile bombing gorges are overpowered. I mean look at all the advice just to deal with one 10 pres unit. That amount of work may make sense for a 50 pres or greater unit but it definitely is too much for a life form that people can pretty much spam non stop.
One 10 pres unit can stop almost any marine attack by forcing a panic beacon back to base. That's just not good design. And a large group can wreck a base before they can be stopped, even with a timely beacon.
I love playing gorge, but I almost feel bad how op he is for his cost. I've been in many games where the marines are clearly outplaying the aliens until a sneaky little ninja gorge singlehandedly turns the tide of the game. Now most of that could be fairly blamed on the marines not having proper defenses but the risk vs payoff for that is still too much in the alien's favor. The risk is only 10 pres (nothing!) and the payoff is winning the game.
If aliens have a winning strategy that mostly works because it takes marines by surprise, then it must be OP, nerf it.
The risk is only 10 pres (nothing!) and the payoff is winning the game.
I ninja-ed a PG on ns_veil using my 10 res JP. I built the power node right in Pipeline and a PG in a corner. This actually happened on the KKG servers last week, on Sunday. We rushed the hive and it was GG shortly after. Damn, JPs are OP, nerf them.
Now that I'm thinking about it, I didn't even need the JP, I could have used the vents to sneak into Utility or the vent south of C-12. 0 res marine is OP, nerf.
If aliens have a winning strategy that mostly works because it takes marines by surprise, then it must be OP, nerf it.
The risk is only 10 pres (nothing!) and the payoff is winning the game.
I ninja-ed a PG on ns_veil using my 10 res JP. I built the power node right in Pipeline and a PG in a corner. This actually happened on the KKG servers last week, on Sunday. We rushed the hive and it was GG shortly after. Damn, JPs are OP, nerf them.
Now that I'm thinking about it, I didn't even need the JP, I could have used the vents to sneak into Utility or the vent south of C-12. 0 res marine is OP, nerf.
JP+PG = 25 Res
PG + Marine = 15 Res
I've taken down a hive with a JP+Flamethrower by myself before, but that's a rarity.
Versus a competent alien commander, there would have been infestation all over the place in pipeline to prevent you from putting that ninja PG in.
Gorges are too cheap(res cost) for how good they are.
Bile bomb needs a nerf, or it needs to be put as a third hive ability.
Edit:
Or they need to increase the cost of Gorge to 20.
Edit #2:
Considering the gorge is supposed to be the support/medic/engineer class, they have way too much survivability, and are capable of throwing out entirely too much damage.
Marines have it hard enough trying to keep up with upgrades and even distribution of structures to compete with alien upgrades, higher evolutions, and expansion. Marines don't have extra expendable res to put on extra obs in the mid game. They need to spend it on AA, arms lab, weapons - otherwise the fades come in and roll if you don't have at least weaps 2 armor1.
Mid game is when bilebomb is out. Generally marines are still working on an AA at this point. No grenades, no JP's, weaps and armor1. They're behind and they can't afford to just throw more obs down.
Especially when the gorge rush, which costs 10pres, can come in and destroy the obs even if it's rush failed. Obs are delicate.
Moving on. Most bases cannot have structures spread out much, otherwise they're able to get shot from gorges in locations where they get cover and have more time to run. So they can take pot shots at 1 structure and keep 1 marine constantly repairing or eventually take the structure out.
Whoever said you can force a gorge out of the hole in nano by putting structures under the vent... you can't move that power node.
Whoever said gorges are always exposed in that vent, that's false. I can angle myself down the back hole a little bit and toss some bombs in completely unexposed.
Gorges are incredibly low risk high reward. Hell once the alien comm has gotten everything at 2 hives possible and doesn't have the base yet for hive 3, he can drop gorge eggs like it's nothing.
Couple all of this with the recent build changing the alert systems somehow for comm and you've got a real problem keeping track of everything.
Possible Solutions?
-lower damage
-remove stack effect
-make gorge cost more
Comments
I have a bunch of stuff bound to my mouse, actually.
Gorges are only a big problem on large servers because you can commit more Gorges to the rush than normal and because Gorges are only 10 res and you can rush over and over and over and over. I still think that the real culprit is power node system here.
Personally, I believe the commander UI is robust enough to know the difference between a power node in ore processing and a power node in your main/secondary base in warehouse/repair. As the power node is THE important structure in pugs and sometimes in competitive play, maybe having an alarm for "structure under attack" and OUR POWER NODE IS DYING AND WE ARE GOING TO LOSE THE GAME would be better.
The CC's health is shown when it is under attack for all marines (and hives for aliens) but realistically, if a powernode goes down without at least 3 marines already there the base is basically as good as dead. Maybe have a seperate alert system for commanders AND marines that show the power node's health? Maybe it can play that suspenseful music that occurs when your CC is going down as well and we can watch the health bar go down from bile. I think that would fix the notification problem.
As long as we get A notification which works. Right now you only have a obs showing incoming aliens if you placed it ok, and thats not gona cut it.
After the map switched to refinery, there were numerous attempts to rush Flow Control and Smelting from Exchange (including the broken glass room) and Transit, respectively. Once again, I find gorge eggs quietly growing just outside of the obs range.
I know how frustrating it is to have a gorge rush stopped in its tracks repeatedly by a gorge patrol. I've been on the receiving end of such a patrol several times (ie. getting shot as an egg) and even though 10 res is cheap to re-gorge, repeated failed attempts basically set off a warning flag for the marines. It makes them paranoid to the point of putting up obs to cover 'that one spot' or having some self-appointed marines hunt for the gorge(s). I have played a game on Tram where my repeated attempts at taking out Repair Room eventually resulted in 3 obs to cover all the entrances and vents AND a dual exo camping in base waiting to fill my defenseless gorge hide with hot lead....
I don't disagree that the power node system can be very frustrating at times. However, I occasionally go for the expensive and annoyingly-long-to-upgrade structures like Protolab (40 res), AA (30 res and a long time to upgrade), Arms Lab (20 res, A/W upgrades), and I completely ignore the power node. My reasoning is that I'm hitting the marines' resources indirectly by taking out these structures which need to be rebuilt, as opposed to a power node which costs nothing and can be repaired in seconds. Hitting the power node and disabling the entire base with no marines around is better...but too often I'm killed right after the power node goes down. Said power node is repaired within 20 seconds by 5 marines that managed to respond to the threat, and it was almost as if I had accomplished nothing by my attack.
So 3 Obs (45 Res)
1 Dual Exo (75 Res)
125 Res to stop one 10 res lifeform from wiping a base off the map... You can't argue that that's overpowered.
If its one gorge the comm can hop out him/herself and unload the gun.
You can beacon.
You can phase.
As long as you notice it, that gorge is dead.
And noticing is not the problem of bilebomb, but of the notification system + obs placement.
Ive played aliens with 2 of my brothers, we all skype, and the aliens will be losing and hope is lost, Ill say screw it the three of us lets gorge and hit their main. I cant tell you how many games weve won for our team because of that "forget trying to play hard lets take a copout and just win" feeling we get when losing as an alien. when that happens it puts the marines in such a disarray and then if the comm isnt paranoid thats his only armslab you lose upgrades and its just a mess and now with the option to concede it just ends.
off topic worst concede ive seen was on mineshaft, aliens conceded while controlling 2 hives 10 minutes into the game. they had sorting and cave and gave up. thats why i hate concede. haha
Bilebomb is particularly problematic lategame when aliens can just replace gorge loss after gorge loss, they can send one suiciding in after another and sooner or later they will succeed. And even if they don't, it'll tie up several marines (particularly when they've built a forward base outside yours) that will not be on the frontline and thus put the marines at an even larger disadvantage against the higher alien lifeforms. (Since they need to outnumber these lifeforms to stand a chance)
There's no immediate fix for this problem, I feel nerfing bilebomb would be too drastic for a problem that only occurs lategame.
And most of those structures have less health than a power node so your more likely to kill them before response.
I'll bite, I totally agree with this. As written above, you cannot group structures; that's instant bilebomb death. So where do you build them? Here's a question for you - smelting.
I commanded a game yesterday where we controlled Pipeworks Smelting and Flowcontrol, we had stopped aliens building up in lava falls and generally had the upper hand across most of the map. Then about 4/5 gorges appeared. 2 in conduit/smelting hall + crags + whips. 1 used clog to get into the vent between routing/smelting and 2 in heatsink.
Between the one in vent, and two in hallway at smelting - where can you build any stucture in smelting which cannot be bile-bombed? Without requiring at least 4/5 players to go and clear out two gorges (was a 20player server), so 4 skulks on us constantly as well. Anytime we pulled people from smelting to push heatsink pipe, smelting would be down in 30s, pull people from push into conduit, same situation.
From the vent in smelting you can bilebomb the powernode, the only place you cannot bilebomb is the command chair, which you can easilly bilebomb from the corridor.
Pipeworks, you can bilebomb the powernode from the hallway and even the command chair and anything in that area or between it and the walls. There is literary almost zero free space where you cannot be artillery bilebombed.
So where do I place my buildings, I tried PG's in empty space and transit but the runtime for constant reinforcements to the otherside of the rooms to effectively defend against the gorges is to long. I had forward obs (for about 3 seconds at a time)
So, as I said - where do I build?
There, I said it.
I think they could leave it as 2-hive and remove the bile stacking, and maybe add the stacking as a 3 hive ability. that would leave bilebomb open to assault a 3CC marine encampment, but without the totally obscene - 2 gorges arrive, you lost your ENTIRE base situation we see right now
i mean really?
tell me how often do you see a gorge ( a support unit by the way ) run and jump in marine base bile bombing everything and doing extremely high splash damage. Even for 5-10 seconds, this is devasting. A gorge has ended more games strictly by bile bomb then i can even count.
It has sniper long range, virtually no consequence of use, and does damage over time. the only splash damage marines have is a grenade launcher which you have to be careful where you shoot, PLUS it is countered by whips.
What counters bile bomb? go ahead ill wait.
You missed "marine waiting in base 24/7." If not a marine waiting in base, then at least 2 Obs as 1 Obs doesn't cover all potential entrances AND give enough warning for a marine to phase back.
(you have a point else of course).
I wont say bile can not be really strong, but that is another reason to spread out your base as much as possible. Which should happen anyway for skulk rushes.
If it truly is one gorge, the comm can manage to hop out if not complete suck, depending where the gorge is. (nano shield also helps).
I still think its more of a notification problem, rather then bile itself.
I am for showing what is inrange of a obs, instead of just showing a dot. it would help
I tested strafing with a friend, and the hydras actually hit most of their spikes. Is this an isolated issue
Please read the bolded sentence above. Did they appear out of nowhere and nuke your base with no prior warning? Was nobody on the lookout for gorges and actively hunting them?
When I play on marines at mid-end game, most people are caught up in the action. They are out jetpacking or exo-ing around on the front lines. Not me. When I suspect gorge rushes, I check all of my usual hiding spots and usually find a gorge egg or two. Sometimes I find an actual gorge chilling outside of base, and I skin it. I suggest obs spots for the comm based on my knowledge of the map as a bile gorge (and sometimes I get resistance because 'it's a second obs, why do we need it').
ARC push from Pipe with JP and/or Exo support, and regular JP marines push Turbine from Conduit. ARCs effectively augment the number of offensive units that you have, allowing you to pressure the aliens from two fronts at the same time. In this case, you have the advantage of instantaneous travel while aliens have to spawn randomly somewhere, evolve and run to whichever side is under most pressure.
If this isn't a rhethorical question...
In smelting:
Obs directly north of the comm station spot, but not in front of the vent. This covers the vent, and woe to you if you do not respond to any red dots moving around in there. Obs up on the little platform to the south of the smelting power node. This covers a good portion of the hallway to Transit. This leaves the hallway to conduit unobserved. Res permitting, obs behind the res node in smelting, this covers the last area. I would also regularly scan the areas just outside of obs range near your important bases. This is assuming you have the upper hand (as you had stated) and your marines are upgraded, etc.
In flow control:
Obs in the upper right, next to the power node (place it a little south of the power node, to help cover more of the broken glass room adjoining Flow Control). This covers a good portion of Falls Approach stairway and that annoying vent between FA and Exchange. Hell, drop an armory or something to block that doorway off completely. It'll buy you about 5 seconds at least, longer if you nanoshield the armory when gorges rush it. Res permitting, backup obs directly north of the comm station to the upper left.
I know what some people are thinking when I make suggestions for 'multiple obs', something along the lines of 'waste of res' and 'unnecessary'. I assure you that nothing fills my heart with more glee than seeing a base with one obs either placed poorly (scan radius wasted off the edge of the map) or covering only one entrance, leaving the other entrance completely open. For example, smelting....an obs up near the comm station or res node covers that part, but makes Transit a quiet breeding ground for those sneaky gorges. Hell, it lets gorges evolve on the roof of smelting, never mind Transit.
So, basically, the best way to fight off a gorge rush is to see it coming before it becomes a threat:
1) Anticipate that it'll happen. When things are too quiet near your bases, that's when you should be most paranoid.
2) Obs placement.
3) Scans.
4) Marines that investigate strange gestating/regeneration noises near your base. I'm constantly amazed that marines don't hear these noises, or if they do, they ignore it and run elsewhere.
One 10 pres unit can stop almost any marine attack by forcing a panic beacon back to base. That's just not good design. And a large group can wreck a base before they can be stopped, even with a timely beacon.
I love playing gorge, but I almost feel bad how op he is for his cost. I've been in many games where the marines are clearly outplaying the aliens until a sneaky little ninja gorge singlehandedly turns the tide of the game. Now most of that could be fairly blamed on the marines not having proper defenses but the risk vs payoff for that is still too much in the alien's favor. The risk is only 10 pres (nothing!) and the payoff is winning the game.
Totally out of whack.
If aliens have a winning strategy that mostly works because it takes marines by surprise, then it must be OP, nerf it.
I ninja-ed a PG on ns_veil using my 10 res JP. I built the power node right in Pipeline and a PG in a corner. This actually happened on the KKG servers last week, on Sunday. We rushed the hive and it was GG shortly after. Damn, JPs are OP, nerf them.
Now that I'm thinking about it, I didn't even need the JP, I could have used the vents to sneak into Utility or the vent south of C-12. 0 res marine is OP, nerf.
JP+PG = 25 Res
PG + Marine = 15 Res
I've taken down a hive with a JP+Flamethrower by myself before, but that's a rarity.
Versus a competent alien commander, there would have been infestation all over the place in pipeline to prevent you from putting that ninja PG in.
Gorges are too cheap(res cost) for how good they are.
Bile bomb needs a nerf, or it needs to be put as a third hive ability.
Edit:
Or they need to increase the cost of Gorge to 20.
Edit #2:
Considering the gorge is supposed to be the support/medic/engineer class, they have way too much survivability, and are capable of throwing out entirely too much damage.
Mid game is when bilebomb is out. Generally marines are still working on an AA at this point. No grenades, no JP's, weaps and armor1. They're behind and they can't afford to just throw more obs down.
Especially when the gorge rush, which costs 10pres, can come in and destroy the obs even if it's rush failed. Obs are delicate.
Moving on. Most bases cannot have structures spread out much, otherwise they're able to get shot from gorges in locations where they get cover and have more time to run. So they can take pot shots at 1 structure and keep 1 marine constantly repairing or eventually take the structure out.
Whoever said you can force a gorge out of the hole in nano by putting structures under the vent... you can't move that power node.
Whoever said gorges are always exposed in that vent, that's false. I can angle myself down the back hole a little bit and toss some bombs in completely unexposed.
Gorges are incredibly low risk high reward. Hell once the alien comm has gotten everything at 2 hives possible and doesn't have the base yet for hive 3, he can drop gorge eggs like it's nothing.
Couple all of this with the recent build changing the alert systems somehow for comm and you've got a real problem keeping track of everything.
Possible Solutions?
-lower damage
-remove stack effect
-make gorge cost more
Boom.
No idea why they changed it.
AFAIK aliens kinda sucked in early beta anyways.