<!--quoteo(post=2055347:date=Jan 3 2013, 03:27 PM:name=Gorgenapper)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gorgenapper @ Jan 3 2013, 03:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2055347"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b>Teamwork is the 'OP' element here, not the gorge or the bile bomb itself.</b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Couldnt agree more, a good commander or a rallying team member = win.
Ive posted it many times before, get a mic and use it.
If you have skulked all the way into the marine base, it is just as fast to start biting down the power node as it is to evolve gorge with adren and bile it to death. As a gorge, if you get caught doing this, 10 res wasted... as a skulk you can possibly defend yourself and continue the assault or escape but either way you were free to begin with.
I'm not saying bile is bad... its clearly the siege weapon of choice for aliens. I just question the merit of possibly wasting your opportunity to take out a power node because you got greedy and wanted to bile the whole area at the same time.
The only time I would take bile over skulk bites is if there are sentries covering the node in such a way as to prevent your skulk from going to work immediately or if you know there's backup on the way.
I've mentioned before that I do not like the power-out mechanic. It makes for boring offense tactics and is too unforgiving IMO. However the big problem here is with alerts not properly notifying the comm that he has to trigger a beacon right this second.
I think both commanders should have a dedicated UI element for tech points that they control, that will flash red when anything in that room is under attack. Sort of like the hive indicators in the NS1 Alien HUD(top right): <a href="http://i44.tinypic.com/eug4cg.jpg" target="_blank">http://i44.tinypic.com/eug4cg.jpg</a>
<!--quoteo(post=2055455:date=Jan 3 2013, 02:10 PM:name=Troubleshooter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Troubleshooter @ Jan 3 2013, 02:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2055455"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you have skulked all the way into the marine base, it is just as fast to start biting down the power node as it is to evolve gorge with adren and bile it to death. As a gorge, if you get caught doing this, 10 res wasted... as a skulk you can possibly defend yourself and continue the assault or escape but either way you were free to begin with.
I'm not saying bile is bad... its clearly the siege weapon of choice for aliens. I just question the merit of possibly wasting your opportunity to take out a power node because you got greedy and wanted to bile the whole area at the same time.
The only time I would take bile over skulk bites is if there are sentries covering the node in such a way as to prevent your skulk from going to work immediately or if you know there's backup on the way.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well there are a couple of things. Bile kills structuers faster period. End of story. It kills rt and power nodes under half the time it takes a skulk to bite it down even with energy regen taken into consideration. The only possible exception is ob which has no armor, but iirc bile kills it faster anyways. Also, most comm chair power nodes are built in such a way so there isn't a blind spot for you to just safely chew away. That, coupled with whatever delay the server has going on at the time, means that you are most likely going to die upon the first marine that returns before you even get to move from the node. Finally, since bile bomb is ranged, it is very easy to find a spot near a downhill slope so that when marines actually do show up, you can decide whether you should just strafe suicide or start some initial d action drifting your way back to safety.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you have skulked all the way into the marine base, it is just as fast to start biting down the power node as it is to evolve gorge with adren and bile it to death.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, it is not. Bile is faster, period. Bile is also ranged, and it is area effect so it can damage several structures at once. Carapace gorges also have 150hp/150a, which translates to 450hp compared to a carapace skulk at 70hp/30a, which is 130hp.
Try it out in explore mode, you will see. Or just try it out in a game.
<!--quoteo(post=2054798:date=Jan 3 2013, 03:54 AM:name=Gorgenapper)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gorgenapper @ Jan 3 2013, 03:54 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2054798"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><u>Poor building placement:</u>
When you put your juicy 40 res protolab right next to your advanced armory and IPs, there might as well be a bright neon sign pointing 'BILE HERE' right over those structures. Space your structures out, don't pack them all together. Put your phase gate away from your observatory. Make your second arms lab in your other base. Stuff like this helps to mitigate the bile bomb damage.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
OMG Thank you!? I have been scouring this entire forum looking for someone who understands!! Armorys are cheap. Advanced armory is not. Keeping it hidded or in a well defended place is imperative. Every time I build an Armory in a location that is perpendicular to Spawn portal, Res node AND power node I get ejected (almost every time). But, that is the correct procedure for commanding.. So.. I guess there are some people out there that think they know how to play but are just full of hot air. True?
If the wiki duration of 12 seconds is correct, than a early nano should buy you at least 6 seconds since gorges will eventually run out of energy.
Edit: To clarify, it'll double the remaining lifespan of the power node if it's under 6 seconds. If it is damaged enough so it'll die in 2 seconds, it'll become 4. If it takes the over 6 seconds to finish the node, it then becomes 6 seconds on top of the time it usually takes to finish the node.
<!--quoteo(post=2055529:date=Jan 3 2013, 04:02 PM:name=casan0vax)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (casan0vax @ Jan 3 2013, 04:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2055529"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I've only seen one comm nanoshield a powernode while it was getting biled, but I was too busy shooting the gorges to notice the damage.
How much time does nanoshielding the node actually buy you, assuming 2 adrenaline gorges are spamming it with bile?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Roughly double the time. 2 adren bile gorges unloading on an unshielded power node will kill it in roughly 6 - 7 seconds. Shielded after the first few bile bombs, it will last around 10 seconds. Shielded before the bile, maybe 12 seconds. The time decreases even more when you're talking about 3 or more gorges.
<!--quoteo(post=2055336:date=Jan 3 2013, 08:09 AM:name=Gorgenapper)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gorgenapper @ Jan 3 2013, 08:09 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2055336"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's the same as alien commanders putting their upgrade structures out in plain view and near the entrance to the hive, or forgetting to cyst a portion of the map (allowing for ninja PGs), or putting whips too far back to be useful, or not supporting a tech point push with a forward mini base, or putting a cyst too far from the resource nozzle and having to wait that extra 10 seconds for the infestation to reach the nozzle.
Structure placement for marine commanders is not much different from any other RTS game, there is a good way to place them, and a bad way to place them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
An alien puts a building in the wrong place they might lose an upgrade, which for sure sucks. But compare this to Marines losing the ability to RESPAWN.
And no, keeping one dude in base is a horrible idea all around. Aliens pretty much never have to worry about defense, meaning they get to be out on the field at all times. So in an 8v8 game, keeping one player as a Comm and another just to try and stop Gorges from destroying an entire base before you can blink, how the hell are Marines supposed to get map control in a constant 6 on 7 situation? That's just a hilariously awful situation to be in, and yet no you HAVE to do this because otherwise you lose the game! And people wonder why Marines barely ######ing win
<!--quoteo(post=2054813:date=Jan 2 2013, 03:11 PM:name=Gorgenapper)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gorgenapper @ Jan 2 2013, 03:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2054813"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I feel that there are misconceptions about how bile is 'OP' and repeated acts of gorge-on-base violence is detrimental to the game as a whole<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->I play gorge all the time and bile is OP - in <i>some </i>cases. The huge problem with bile is that it doesn't scale. You have bile doing the same damage to a sentry as to a command chair. So to make is so bile isn't underpowered against a CC it's been buffed so it takes out a sentry nest in two shots.
Bile does 70 DPS for 5 seconds. It does double damage versus structures. So that means if I connect with just ONE bile bomb, I am guaranteed 700 armor damage on a building unless there is someone sitting with a welder on it. Sentries? An entire sentry nest is gone if I can connect with only TWO bile bombs. I connect with one, wait my 5 seconds, and then once I connect with the second the base is as good as gone unless someone is sitting with a welder on it. Heck, for a MAC at full health you only need to connect with ONE bile bomb. Without welding the MAC is dead.
In any case sentries are a waste of res right now anyway. If it doesn't get taken out by a couple bile bombs, the Achilles heel (sentry battery) is just as easy to take out since it is near impossible to cover your target and the sentry battery in most cases.
Bottom line is that I can waddle into marine spawn, spam the jump key while spinning around and laughing while I bile their whole base, guaranteed to get a minimum of three hits in before I'm killed. If I bring a buddy gorge with me, and we connect with three bile bombs (which means we only need to live for 11 seconds - long enough for the first two bile bombs to finish ticking and then hit with the third one) this is enough to take out:
Arms lab Observatory Armory (not upgraded) all infantry portals (needs a few spit to top up the damage though)
How do we live for 11 seconds? Well after we drop the first bile bomb we spam heal on each other. Then rinse and repeat. We are guaranteed ~5 seconds by the time marines respond, so we really only need to live for ~6 more to basically cripple the base and win the game.
<!--quoteo(post=2055571:date=Jan 3 2013, 05:22 PM:name=KilledByDeath)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KilledByDeath @ Jan 3 2013, 05:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2055571"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->An alien puts a building in the wrong place they might lose an upgrade, which for sure sucks. But compare this to Marines losing the ability to RESPAWN.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't see how this is foul play. It is much, much, MUCH easier to egglock a single hive team than to bile rush a power node with 2 IP spitting out 2 marines every 7 seconds. I can see merit in losing all your structure abilities for a single power node, but tying respawn to power node is not that big of a deal tbh
OT but I've been wondering about bile bomb damage. Supposedly it does 70dpsx2=140dps to structural armor, but a direct bile only seems to do 28 a tick to structures besides ob (14 since there's no armor). In order for it to be 140dps as stated on the wiki, bile needs to tick 5 times a second which atm I think ticks at a much slower rate. Yea the damage piles up after you just spam bile but I don't think I've seen the initial hit go above 28 ever
<!--quoteo(post=2055583:date=Jan 3 2013, 05:42 PM:name=Makenshi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Makenshi @ Jan 3 2013, 05:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2055583"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't see how this is foul play. It is much, much, MUCH easier to egglock a single hive team than to bile rush a power node with 2 IP spitting out 2 marines every 7 seconds. I can see merit in losing all your structure abilities for a single power node, but tying respawn to power node is not that big of a deal tbh
OT but I've been wondering about bile bomb damage. Supposedly it does 70dpsx2=140dps to structural armor, but a direct bile only seems to do 28 a tick to structures besides ob (14 since there's no armor). In order for it to be 140dps as stated on the wiki, bile needs to tick 5 times a second which atm I think ticks at a much slower rate. Yea the damage piles up after you just spam bile but I don't think I've seen the initial hit go above 28 ever<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Egg locking and Bile rushing happen at very different points in the game.
<!--quoteo(post=2055588:date=Jan 3 2013, 05:48 PM:name=SixtyWattMan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SixtyWattMan @ Jan 3 2013, 05:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2055588"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Egg locking and Bile rushing happen at very different points in the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Nice aside. Not sure what it has to do with my post though.
<!--quoteo(post=2055574:date=Jan 3 2013, 03:23 PM:name=Savant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Savant @ Jan 3 2013, 03:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2055574"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Bile does 70 DPS for 5 seconds. It does double damage versus structures. So that means if I connect with just ONE bile bomb, I am guaranteed 700 armor damage on a building unless there is someone sitting with a welder on it. Sentries? An entire sentry nest is gone if I can connect with only TWO bile bombs. I connect with one, wait my 5 seconds, and then once I connect with the second the base is as good as gone unless someone is sitting with a welder on it. Heck, for a MAC at full health you only need to connect with ONE bile bomb. Without welding the MAC is dead.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--c1--><div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><!--ec1-->// Corrode - deals normal damage to structures but armor only to non structures<!--c2--></div><!--ec2--> <!--c1--><div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><!--ec1-->kBileBombDamage = 70 // per second kBileBombDamageType = kDamageType.Corrode kBileBombEnergyCost = 20 kBileBombDuration = 5<!--c2--></div><!--ec2-->
Bile Bomb does not do double damage to structures, and that 70 damage per second is reliant on the bile bomb being a direct hit. Damage falls off at the edge of its range. Noting that a single Gorge can fire a bile bomb once per second, and that the duration is 5 seconds, bile bomb can stack to do 350 damage per second at most assuming every bile bomb is a direct hit. This 350 damage will lower each second afterwards if the bile bombs stop.
Please, stop citing the wiki. You can check the Lua yourself. Go to your Natural Selection 2 install folder, start Decoda, and load up Balance.lua, BalanceHealth.lua, BalanceMisc.lua, and DamageTypes.lua to get all the information you need.
<!--quoteo(post=2055628:date=Jan 3 2013, 08:54 PM:name=Timarius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Timarius @ Jan 3 2013, 08:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2055628"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Bile Bomb does not do double damage to structures, and that 70 damage per second is reliant on the bile bomb being a direct hit.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Thanks for the correction on structural damage, but the fact remains base busting is a lawlfest with a gorge, although I don't do it too often since I always feel guilty when I can screw over the entire marine team with a couple gorges.
<!--quoteo(post=2055648:date=Jan 3 2013, 05:35 PM:name=Savant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Savant @ Jan 3 2013, 05:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2055648"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Thanks for the correction on structural damage, but the fact remains base busting is a lawlfest with a gorge, although I don't do it too often since I always feel guilty when I can screw over the entire marine team with a couple gorges.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Speaking of structural damage, only the marines have that type on the axe, grenade launcher, and exo fist. Onos Slam is actually door damage because it's meant to bust open welded doors when those finally show up again.
And of course you can screw up the marine team with a couple of Gorges. It's a combination of a lack of notification, a lack of players checking their map, and a lack of reaction time from the commander.
Oh, and a lack of command stations powering buildings within their radius (such as IPs, and maybe an obs).
That's a metaphor. See if you're fat you can't resist chicken and waffles therefore they're OP. A gorge is fat so they can't resist bilebomb, it's a fact.
<!--quoteo(post=2055957:date=Jan 4 2013, 06:51 AM:name=Davil)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Davil @ Jan 4 2013, 06:51 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2055957"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Bilebomb is about as OP as chicken and waffles.
That's a metaphor. See if you're fat you can't resist chicken and waffles therefore they're OP. A gorge is fat so they can't resist bilebomb, it's a fact.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Bottom line is that I can waddle into marine spawn, spam the jump key while spinning around and laughing while I bile their whole base, guaranteed to get a minimum of three hits in before I'm killed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->but the fact remains base busting is a lawlfest with a gorge, although I don't do it too often since I always feel guilty when I can screw over the entire marine team with a couple gorges.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Again, if you read my original post, the underlying theme of my recommendations is to have advance warning of some kind. This means well-placed obs in base (not just one but at least 2 for every important built-up tech point), regular scans of outlying areas as res permits, blocked off entrances/exits where possible, and a marine to patrol those bases. Except for the multiple obs in good locations, everything else is redundant. It is the commander's job to watch the base, and to see stuff coming before it is too late....
I'll say again...good gorge rushes succeed mainly because the marines have no advance warning. That lone obs in the back of Terminal (ns2_docking) is great for scanning a portion of East Wing and covering most of area around the comm station, but there are no obs near landing pad or the area to Courtyard.
Is marine comm more intense and involving than alien comm? Yes, twice or thrice as much, in fact. But I'm not here to talk about whether this is a problem or not - in this thread, I'm only concerned with showing marine commanders how to defend against bile rushes. I cannot see gorges costing more than 10 res, and I cannot see bile bomb being moved to a 2nd hive upgrade or being nerfed in any way.
In fact, the whole point of this thread is to benefit both aliens and marines. People are crying about how gorges/bile are OP and screaming for nerfs - and nerfing aliens is not the solution. Marines are shedding tears as their poorly defended base gets nuked to the Stone Age by a couple of gorges. So, by making this thread and pointing out the errors that most marine commanders make WRT to a bile gorge rush, I show that gorges and bile bomb have incredibly successful results (ie. 'seemingly OP') because of the mistakes being made by the marine comm, not because bile is OP.
OP is a lerk with bile bomb (which was apparently something that happened in early Beta). OP is a grenade launcher attachment to the standard rifle. OP is Feign Death, which got removed (along with Hypermutation) before 1.0. OP was a lerk with 125 armor - yes, the lerk had MORE armor than a fade.
Bile is not OP because you have to get the gorges in range first. If you have gorges rushing alongside other lifeforms, that's teamwork. If you have a couple ninja gorges nuke a marine base from behind, it's seen as 'OP' - but have you ever wondered how the gorges got INTO base undetected in the first place, or were given enough time to destroy a base?
So this doesn't really change the fact that Marines and the Commander have to play 100 perfect just for the chance to like, survive, which also doesn't really help that whole "Marines just ######ing suck" problem.
The gorge itself, as is, is not broken, per se. It is however, too cheap for what it does now. It either needs toning down, or a price hike. Sorry. No one class should be (especially for a paltry 10 res) be able to solo an entire marine base before they can properly respond. Keep in mind that base notifications do NOT ALWAYS FUNCTION when bile is hitting base.
<!--quoteo(post=2061061:date=Jan 15 2013, 04:52 PM:name=CommunistWithAGun)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CommunistWithAGun @ Jan 15 2013, 04:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2061061"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><b>base notifications do NOT ALWAYS FUNCTION when bile is hitting base.</b><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As much fun as I have doing successful bile rushes, I feel that there are misconceptions about how bile is 'OP' and repeated acts of gorge-on-base violence is detrimental to the game as a whole - marines start rage quitting, marines cry about aliens being OP, etc. etc.
Aliens are OP though, and BB is broken.
Hell, stomp is broken.
If only marines had one weapon that would completely wipe out an alien base. Like an EMP depth charge they could purchase and set up in the alien hive. Then it'll nuke everything in sight. Then, and only then, will gorge bile bomb no longer be OP. Then alien commanders will have to spend effort thinking about where they place structures so they won't all get nuked by a single marine ninja-ing his way into the hive. They'll have to build 5 drifters and space them all over the inside of the hive so as to spot any incoming ninja EMP. Then as soon as the ninja kills a single structure, all of the eggs in that hive instantly vanish. Then the uber-elite ninja EMP marine will come to this forum and write up an instruction set for how the alien commander should deal with such an OP trait.
I have only one problem with Biobomb, when I play commander, and its the "no alarm" bug. First, I thought it was just me but then after some games I realized that others get this bad thing too.
So what am I talking about? I'm talking about, whenever a gorge/s decide/s to end the game for the marines, there is no alarm to notify about the serious danger the base is in. There was a case, when I looked at my main base to do some upgrades, then went to check how my marines were doing and when I got back to check the status of the upgrading, I found I had no longer a base but a pile of toxic metal on the floor.
And I was like :O --> -->
The moral of the story is:
The alarming system needs fixing.
Man!
Edit: Nice suggestions OP. I'll use them and see how it goes.
It takes too much time playing, not skill, to realise the importance of C (map). The hive/cc icons (came in big, got smaller) helped new players, maybe sort out some kind of newbie alerts system similar to green name status?
Comments
Couldnt agree more, a good commander or a rallying team member = win.
Ive posted it many times before, get a mic and use it.
I'm not saying bile is bad... its clearly the siege weapon of choice for aliens. I just question the merit of possibly wasting your opportunity to take out a power node because you got greedy and wanted to bile the whole area at the same time.
The only time I would take bile over skulk bites is if there are sentries covering the node in such a way as to prevent your skulk from going to work immediately or if you know there's backup on the way.
I think both commanders should have a dedicated UI element for tech points that they control, that will flash red when anything in that room is under attack. Sort of like the hive indicators in the NS1 Alien HUD(top right): <a href="http://i44.tinypic.com/eug4cg.jpg" target="_blank">http://i44.tinypic.com/eug4cg.jpg</a>
I'm not saying bile is bad... its clearly the siege weapon of choice for aliens. I just question the merit of possibly wasting your opportunity to take out a power node because you got greedy and wanted to bile the whole area at the same time.
The only time I would take bile over skulk bites is if there are sentries covering the node in such a way as to prevent your skulk from going to work immediately or if you know there's backup on the way.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well there are a couple of things. Bile kills structuers faster period. End of story. It kills rt and power nodes under half the time it takes a skulk to bite it down even with energy regen taken into consideration. The only possible exception is ob which has no armor, but iirc bile kills it faster anyways. Also, most comm chair power nodes are built in such a way so there isn't a blind spot for you to just safely chew away. That, coupled with whatever delay the server has going on at the time, means that you are most likely going to die upon the first marine that returns before you even get to move from the node. Finally, since bile bomb is ranged, it is very easy to find a spot near a downhill slope so that when marines actually do show up, you can decide whether you should just strafe suicide or start some initial d action drifting your way back to safety.
No, it is not. Bile is faster, period. Bile is also ranged, and it is area effect so it can damage several structures at once. Carapace gorges also have 150hp/150a, which translates to 450hp compared to a carapace skulk at 70hp/30a, which is 130hp.
Try it out in explore mode, you will see. Or just try it out in a game.
When you put your juicy 40 res protolab right next to your advanced armory and IPs, there might as well be a bright neon sign pointing 'BILE HERE' right over those structures. Space your structures out, don't pack them all together. Put your phase gate away from your observatory. Make your second arms lab in your other base. Stuff like this helps to mitigate the bile bomb damage.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
OMG Thank you!?
I have been scouring this entire forum looking for someone who understands!!
Armorys are cheap. Advanced armory is not. Keeping it hidded or in a well defended place is imperative.
Every time I build an Armory in a location that is perpendicular to Spawn portal, Res node AND power node I get ejected (almost every time).
But, that is the correct procedure for commanding.. So.. I guess there are some people out there that think they know how to play but are just full of hot air. True?
How much time does nanoshielding the node actually buy you, assuming 2 adrenaline gorges are spamming it with bile?
Edit: To clarify, it'll double the remaining lifespan of the power node if it's under 6 seconds. If it is damaged enough so it'll die in 2 seconds, it'll become 4. If it takes the over 6 seconds to finish the node, it then becomes 6 seconds on top of the time it usually takes to finish the node.
How much time does nanoshielding the node actually buy you, assuming 2 adrenaline gorges are spamming it with bile?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Roughly double the time. 2 adren bile gorges unloading on an unshielded power node will kill it in roughly 6 - 7 seconds. Shielded after the first few bile bombs, it will last around 10 seconds. Shielded before the bile, maybe 12 seconds. The time decreases even more when you're talking about 3 or more gorges.
Bile bile bile (marine shows up) Stealth and hide (wait) marine gets bored (leaves) , bile bile Success.
Structure placement for marine commanders is not much different from any other RTS game, there is a good way to place them, and a bad way to place them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
An alien puts a building in the wrong place they might lose an upgrade, which for sure sucks. But compare this to Marines losing the ability to RESPAWN.
And no, keeping one dude in base is a horrible idea all around. Aliens pretty much never have to worry about defense, meaning they get to be out on the field at all times. So in an 8v8 game, keeping one player as a Comm and another just to try and stop Gorges from destroying an entire base before you can blink, how the hell are Marines supposed to get map control in a constant 6 on 7 situation? That's just a hilariously awful situation to be in, and yet no you HAVE to do this because otherwise you lose the game! And people wonder why Marines barely ######ing win
Bile does 70 DPS for 5 seconds. It does double damage versus structures. So that means if I connect with just ONE bile bomb, I am guaranteed 700 armor damage on a building unless there is someone sitting with a welder on it. Sentries? An entire sentry nest is gone if I can connect with only TWO bile bombs. I connect with one, wait my 5 seconds, and then once I connect with the second the base is as good as gone unless someone is sitting with a welder on it. Heck, for a MAC at full health you only need to connect with ONE bile bomb. Without welding the MAC is dead.
In any case sentries are a waste of res right now anyway. If it doesn't get taken out by a couple bile bombs, the Achilles heel (sentry battery) is just as easy to take out since it is near impossible to cover your target and the sentry battery in most cases.
Bottom line is that I can waddle into marine spawn, spam the jump key while spinning around and laughing while I bile their whole base, guaranteed to get a minimum of three hits in before I'm killed. If I bring a buddy gorge with me, and we connect with three bile bombs (which means we only need to live for 11 seconds - long enough for the first two bile bombs to finish ticking and then hit with the third one) this is enough to take out:
Arms lab
Observatory
Armory (not upgraded)
all infantry portals (needs a few spit to top up the damage though)
How do we live for 11 seconds? Well after we drop the first bile bomb we spam heal on each other. Then rinse and repeat. We are guaranteed ~5 seconds by the time marines respond, so we really only need to live for ~6 more to basically cripple the base and win the game.
I don't see how this is foul play. It is much, much, MUCH easier to egglock a single hive team than to bile rush a power node with 2 IP spitting out 2 marines every 7 seconds. I can see merit in losing all your structure abilities for a single power node, but tying respawn to power node is not that big of a deal tbh
OT but I've been wondering about bile bomb damage. Supposedly it does 70dpsx2=140dps to structural armor, but a direct bile only seems to do 28 a tick to structures besides ob (14 since there's no armor). In order for it to be 140dps as stated on the wiki, bile needs to tick 5 times a second which atm I think ticks at a much slower rate. Yea the damage piles up after you just spam bile but I don't think I've seen the initial hit go above 28 ever
OT but I've been wondering about bile bomb damage. Supposedly it does 70dpsx2=140dps to structural armor, but a direct bile only seems to do 28 a tick to structures besides ob (14 since there's no armor). In order for it to be 140dps as stated on the wiki, bile needs to tick 5 times a second which atm I think ticks at a much slower rate. Yea the damage piles up after you just spam bile but I don't think I've seen the initial hit go above 28 ever<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Egg locking and Bile rushing happen at very different points in the game.
Nice aside. Not sure what it has to do with my post though.
<!--c1--><div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><!--ec1-->// Corrode - deals normal damage to structures but armor only to non structures<!--c2--></div><!--ec2-->
<!--c1--><div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><!--ec1-->kBileBombDamage = 70 // per second
kBileBombDamageType = kDamageType.Corrode
kBileBombEnergyCost = 20
kBileBombDuration = 5<!--c2--></div><!--ec2-->
Bile Bomb does not do double damage to structures, and that 70 damage per second is reliant on the bile bomb being a direct hit. Damage falls off at the edge of its range. Noting that a single Gorge can fire a bile bomb once per second, and that the duration is 5 seconds, bile bomb can stack to do 350 damage per second at most assuming every bile bomb is a direct hit. This 350 damage will lower each second afterwards if the bile bombs stop.
Please, stop citing the wiki. You can check the Lua yourself. Go to your Natural Selection 2 install folder, start Decoda, and load up Balance.lua, BalanceHealth.lua, BalanceMisc.lua, and DamageTypes.lua to get all the information you need.
Speaking of structural damage, only the marines have that type on the axe, grenade launcher, and exo fist. Onos Slam is actually door damage because it's meant to bust open welded doors when those finally show up again.
And of course you can screw up the marine team with a couple of Gorges. It's a combination of a lack of notification, a lack of players checking their map, and a lack of reaction time from the commander.
Oh, and a lack of command stations powering buildings within their radius (such as IPs, and maybe an obs).
That's a metaphor. See if you're fat you can't resist chicken and waffles therefore they're OP. A gorge is fat so they can't resist bilebomb, it's a fact.
That's a metaphor. See if you're fat you can't resist chicken and waffles therefore they're OP. A gorge is fat so they can't resist bilebomb, it's a fact.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
THIS IS TRUE
::cuter gorgie mod eyes::
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->but the fact remains base busting is a lawlfest with a gorge, although I don't do it too often since I always feel guilty when I can screw over the entire marine team with a couple gorges.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Again, if you read my original post, the underlying theme of my recommendations is to have advance warning of some kind. This means well-placed obs in base (not just one but at least 2 for every important built-up tech point), regular scans of outlying areas as res permits, blocked off entrances/exits where possible, and a marine to patrol those bases. Except for the multiple obs in good locations, everything else is redundant. It is the commander's job to watch the base, and to see stuff coming before it is too late....
I'll say again...good gorge rushes succeed mainly because the marines have no advance warning. That lone obs in the back of Terminal (ns2_docking) is great for scanning a portion of East Wing and covering most of area around the comm station, but there are no obs near landing pad or the area to Courtyard.
Is marine comm more intense and involving than alien comm? Yes, twice or thrice as much, in fact. But I'm not here to talk about whether this is a problem or not - in this thread, I'm only concerned with showing marine commanders how to defend against bile rushes. I cannot see gorges costing more than 10 res, and I cannot see bile bomb being moved to a 2nd hive upgrade or being nerfed in any way.
In fact, the whole point of this thread is to benefit both aliens and marines. People are crying about how gorges/bile are OP and screaming for nerfs - and nerfing aliens is not the solution. Marines are shedding tears as their poorly defended base gets nuked to the Stone Age by a couple of gorges. So, by making this thread and pointing out the errors that most marine commanders make WRT to a bile gorge rush, I show that gorges and bile bomb have incredibly successful results (ie. 'seemingly OP') because of the mistakes being made by the marine comm, not because bile is OP.
OP is a lerk with bile bomb (which was apparently something that happened in early Beta). OP is a grenade launcher attachment to the standard rifle. OP is Feign Death, which got removed (along with Hypermutation) before 1.0. OP was a lerk with 125 armor - yes, the lerk had MORE armor than a fade.
Bile is not OP because you have to get the gorges in range first. If you have gorges rushing alongside other lifeforms, that's teamwork. If you have a couple ninja gorges nuke a marine base from behind, it's seen as 'OP' - but have you ever wondered how the gorges got INTO base undetected in the first place, or were given enough time to destroy a base?
NEVER FUNCTION when bile is hitting base. you only notice when someone can no longer spawn and your base is pitch black.
Aliens are OP though, and BB is broken.
Hell, stomp is broken.
So what am I talking about? I'm talking about, whenever a gorge/s decide/s to end the game for the marines, there is no alarm to notify about the serious danger the base is in. There was a case, when I looked at my main base to do some upgrades, then went to check how my marines were doing and when I got back to check the status of the upgrading, I found I had no longer a base but a pile of toxic metal on the floor.
And I was like :O -->
The moral of the story is:
The alarming system needs fixing.
Man!
Edit: Nice suggestions OP. I'll use them and see how it goes.