Advanced Commander Tips
M0RT
Join Date: 2013-01-02 Member: 177140Members
Join Date: 2013-01-02 Member: 177140Members
I'd like some thoughts on commander tactics for each map. I'm looking for intelligent, detailed responses with reasons from experienced players.
<u>Marine</u>
What situations/map is it best to get exos over jetpacks?
What situations would GLs, flame throwers, shotguns work best in?
What order/timing is it best to get weapon/armor upgrades?
Which maps do arcs work best in? Which maps are the worst?
<u>Aliens</u>
I typically get upgrades in this order: Celerity, Regen, Carapace, Adrenaline, Silence, Camo. Is there a better build order for specific maps?
What are some good tactics for using shifts to teleport structures?
Also, this is for pub commanding, not for competitive commanding.
<u>Marine</u>
What situations/map is it best to get exos over jetpacks?
What situations would GLs, flame throwers, shotguns work best in?
What order/timing is it best to get weapon/armor upgrades?
Which maps do arcs work best in? Which maps are the worst?
<u>Aliens</u>
I typically get upgrades in this order: Celerity, Regen, Carapace, Adrenaline, Silence, Camo. Is there a better build order for specific maps?
What are some good tactics for using shifts to teleport structures?
Also, this is for pub commanding, not for competitive commanding.
Comments
It's been my experience that, unless the marines are bad, Camo first games need to end fast. Especially if you choose Shift second. Once the marines start tech up arms lab upgrades, that Camo stuff will be less helpful.
Camo make players too cautious, lest they drop their Camo. Camo makes new players creep slowly across the map, staying cloaked the whole time.
It seems that UWE has managed to make Shift a viable First hive now, unlike NS1 where it was ALWAYS Crag, Shift, Shade (Or Defense, Movement, Sensory). Shade though is still lacking something to make it a viable first choice, IMHO.
<b>What situations/map is it best to get exos over jetpacks?</b>
In theory Jetpacks are allows better than exos. In practice it depends on how good your marines are. A good marine with a jp is better than a mediocre/good marine with an exo. Don't bother with EXOs unless you get double gun EXOs.
Try not to let more than 25% of your team get EXOs at the same time.
<b>What situations would GLs, flame throwers, shotguns work best in?</b>
Shotguns: always get them. They don't really start to shine till after weapons 2.
Flame Throwers: Pretty much never get them.
GLs: Get them only if you want to take down a heavily fortified hive, that isn't easily ARC'd. Don't let more than 25% of your team get GLs at the same time.
<b>What order/timing is it best to get weapon/armor upgrades?</b>
A1/W1 first is a toss up. Generally you should prioritize weapons over armor, after armor 1 is upgraded.
so usually : A1/W1/W2/W3/A2/A3 or W1/A1/W2/W3/A2/A3
You <b>must </b>have A1 finished before fades come out.
Sometimes it is worth it to get A2 early if you are going to have JPs or EXOs out. The extra armor helps these more expensive marines survive.
<b>Which maps do arcs work best in? Which maps are the worst?</b>
Docking: ARCs are ridiculously powerful. (locker, departures, cafe, terminal all have very OP siege spots. Gen siege is also decent)
Tram: Arcs are good. (siege on warehouse is strong, elevator and repair are fairly easy to ARC)
Mineshaft: ARcs are good (siege on deposits is broken good)
Veil: ARC out double, other ARC attacks aren't that good.
Summit / Refinery: ARCs usually aren't worth the trouble.
<u>Aliens</u>
<b>I typically get upgrades in this order: Celerity, Regen, Carapace, Adrenaline, Silence, Camo. Is there a better build order for specific maps?</b>
Your current order is fine. In big games you need shifts for egg spawn if your aliens die a lot. In smaller games Regen/carapace is generally better.
One note, is that a good regen lerk in the early game is extremely powerful.
Camo/silence is okay, but is pretty easily countered if the other team plays conservatively and scans frequently. Also camo is next to useless for any lifeform other than skulk.
<b>What are some good tactics for using shifts to teleport structures?</b>
Generally shift echo is an expensive gimmick. Teleporting whips with bombard can work, but is generally only effective if the marine team is asleep or extremely occupied else where.
Usually never but if you are confident that your team wins no matter what you do, then why not.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What situations would GLs, flame throwers, shotguns work best in?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
When fades and onoses start to pop up you need to counter them with shotgun. You propably don't want that your marines start running off with shotguns early on and die with them and lose all their res when jps are out then atleast it's time to research shotties. Early on res is better used on mines and welders imo.
If you see many lerks with spores before fades you might want to go for flamer first. Flamer is best for stopping alien expansion, one good flamer with jp can do some good harassing and cyst cleanup and may sometimes be able to open new pg position deep in enemy grounds.
I usually research gl last but you can take it sooner if your team can hold sieging positions and is steamrolling aliens cuz pressured aliens cant keep whips up to counter gl.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What order/timing is it best to get weapon/armor upgrades?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
first 1 armor, then 1 weapon. I often research them at same speed because the costs go up and you may want to start new research of cheaper upgrade instead of waiting for that last 35 tres tier 3 upgrade.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Which maps do arcs work best in? Which maps are the worst?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Works best in all maps in both defence and offence. If your team is locked in base because aliens have built frontal healing base right next to your base the arcs are invaluable in taking them down from range. Exos with arcs are almost unstoppable force.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><u>Aliens</u>
I typically get upgrades in this order: Celerity, Regen, Carapace, Adrenaline, Silence, Camo. Is there a better build order for specific maps?
What are some good tactics for using shifts to teleport structures?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
My upgrade order is about same as yours. I have tested some tactics with shifts. My strat is to grow whip farm around shift that they can mature and get full health in peace, I also place upgrades next to shift so I can move them with the shift to safety if base is getting steamrolled with arcs. It's fun to defend rt's sometimes by teleporting 2 whips to it when it's being attacked by marine with axe, marine usually gets surprised and dies. Then I move whips back to shift to wait new opportunity. Teleporting whips to enemy base when your team is rushing can also be very effective or you can try to sneakily infestate enemy base somewhere while they are attacking your base and try to take their power down quickly with 4 teleported whips (+crags/shade to heal them if u want). It's almost quaranteed power down if marine team is not paying attention. :P
Jetpacks are better to get first in just about every map, jet packs are a quick counter to onos and you don't have to research dual jet packs for it to be useful like exos. Really whether to actually buy exo or jp is the choice of the player. Some guys really like exos and can shoot really well, some people can use a jet pack and fly like a lerk. Generally though jet packs are something everyone can afford and they do counter onos pretty well.
Shotguns work best in every scenario, you really can't go wrong with them early on. Flame throwers are great if you have 2 or 3 jet packing around a hive to kill it fast, I actually made a video on youtube showing how quickly you can cripple the alien economy with 1 jp and flame thrower, worth watching. And GL's aren't bad, but require the right player to use them. GL's are awesome for supporting a push into the hive since marines tend to get bunched up and shooting grenades at them will kill most anything trying to attack them.
Weapon and Armor upgrades should be done either before or after phase tech, it depends on how spread out you are. But generally once you have 4 rt's or more, it's time for an arms lab. As far as which to pick first, ask your team.
Arcs work great in Tram since almost every hive can quickly and easily be sieged as long as you take hub (the center area). They have some utility in maps like veil since they can clear out nano in a few seconds if you put them in west or east junction. For the most part they shouldn't be part of a real strategy though. Upgrading your marines' weapons and armor will do more than spending all that res on a robotics factory to arc factory and then more arcs.
<u>For Aliens</u>
That's not a bad upgrade path, it's generally what I prefer. Just have to remember that leap should be right after your second upgrade chamber. Leap is one of the biggest game changers aliens have early on. It lets players close distance and move around way faster if you know how to wall jump properly. Camo isn't really a good start since you'll cripple yourself if you don't get 3 hives. Not having shift or crag makes things very difficult when marines get upgrades. Shifts are great to start with since they can prevent egg lock early on also.
As far as using the echo ability with shifts... It's really just fluff. If you wanted you might save some res by teleporting your forward bases farther up instead of building new ones. Or you could use the shift as sort of a mobile egg factory putting eggs all over the map. But really if you have time to play with that, the game is already over.
None. Even if you're in a two tech point turtle, W3 + Jetpacks on the team are a more cost effective solution for Onos rushes and more able to quickly respond to any pushes outside the base. Even when players demand Exos, I politely tell them I'm not getting Exos, they need to buy Jetpack / Shotguns.
<!--quoteo(post=2054863:date=Jan 2 2013, 11:59 AM:name=M0RT)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (M0RT @ Jan 2 2013, 11:59 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2054863"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What situations would GLs, flame throwers, shotguns work best in?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Shotguns are always a solid early upgrade, right after Weapons 1 is active.
GLs are useful to assault a hive, but really not a priority. If public Khamms weren't so Whip happy, I'd put a bit more emphasis on them. Again, the combat flexibility and damage of having your team focus their pRes spending on Jetpacks and Shotguns outweighs most of the advanced weaponry.
Flamethrowers... useless. It can clear out junky forward stations and cysts.. but ultimately you can spend the res elsewhere, more effectively (weapon/armor upgrades). Treat them like Exos, as an afterthought.
<!--quoteo(post=2054863:date=Jan 2 2013, 11:59 AM:name=M0RT)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (M0RT @ Jan 2 2013, 11:59 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2054863"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What order/timing is it best to get weapon/armor upgrades?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I get Armor 1 first then max out to Weapons 3. I also rush Phase Gates on pubs though, as it's easier for inexperienced teams.
<!--quoteo(post=2054863:date=Jan 2 2013, 11:59 AM:name=M0RT)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (M0RT @ Jan 2 2013, 11:59 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2054863"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Which maps do arcs work best in? Which maps are the worst?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In public servers I use ARCs every siege opportunity I can, simply because public players are currently so inexperienced and unorganized. If you're having problems getting a cohesive group to go shoot down a hive themselves, it'll be easier for them to guard a position away from the front lines where your ARCs will deploy.
Finally, don't drop your 2nd IP right off the bat. I see so many commanders in pubs do this when it's only a 6v6 or 7v7. You need a 2nd one, just not instantly.
<!--quoteo(post=2054863:date=Jan 2 2013, 11:59 AM:name=M0RT)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (M0RT @ Jan 2 2013, 11:59 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2054863"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I typically get upgrades in this order: Celerity, Regen, Carapace, Adrenaline, Silence, Camo. Is there a better build order for specific maps?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That is fine, though I'd swap Regen and Carapace in your order as it gives less experienced players more of an immediate cushion and has no curve to learn to use effectively.
As far as Camo first, as someone said above.... Camo in general is a gamble. On pubs it's a bit stronger when you have a couple players who use it right, but typically it hinders your team long term for a couple reasons. One, only some players run to position THEN cloak. A lot of pubbers seem content to creep around cloaked, sapping the aliens of their movement strengths. Second, you're gambling your cloaked Skulks can establish and maintain enough map control in the first 5 minutes to almost decide the match outcome. Cloak is useful for a Skulk, but that is about it. With future upgrades for Fade, Lerk and to some extent Onos you're basically choosing a combat tree that isn't their most effective. Instead of them having Celerity and Carapice they now have Camoflauge and Celerity or Carapace and that makes your late game units a lot weaker.
Almost all of them. With jetpacks being as slow and low on fuel as they currently are, and grenade launchers being so easily countered by a single whip, jetpacks have lost nearly all of their use. Exos go through hives like butter, and actually provide something which a vanilla marine cannot. That being said, games of attrition typically do not benefit much from a sudden exo rush. That is to say, if res node possession is pretty even between both teams, and territory is as well, exos are not necessarily a good idea unless you endeavour to end the game within 6 or 7 minutes after getting them. Otherwise your team is likely to blow all their res at once, and then have nothing to fight back with when they lose their suits.
<b>What situations would GLs, flame throwers, shotguns work best in?</b>
Shotguns are best for an early game advantage, or if a fade is giving your team a lot of trouble. Getting shotguns without having at least one marine with a 3+ KPD can be risky, as it will probably amount to nothing more than wasted resources for you and your marines. If you are really bunkering down in a specific location, and defending a lot, shotguns are unlikely to be lost, just dropped and picked up again.
Grenade Launchers are good for covering slow, powerful objects like ARCs and Exos. I guess they can be used to destroy structures, but only if the aliens are too stupid to build one or two whips to completely counter you. Flame throwers are good for beating aliens that are already beaten. Some people say they are good at killing Onos. I'm sceptical though.
<b>What order/timing is it best to get weapon/armor upgrades?</b>
I will typically get level 2 weapons, then level 1 armour, then level 3 weapons, then leave it for a while and focus on other stuff. High level weapons make aliens very nervous with their lifeforms, and can sometimes prevent big attacks simply through demoralisation. Keeping individual marines alive shouldn't be a high priority if you are expanding correctly, so I don't rate armour as important as weapons. The timing depends on strategy, but here's the rule I follow: you can start getting upgrades whenever you want, but you must have level 3 guns by 10 minutes. So you can invest heavily early on and rush level 1 guns, and then slowly tech up to level 3 with the territory advantage, or you can leave all upgrades till around 5 minutes, instead focusing on taking a lot of the map and res nodes, but then you need to tech very fast, typically with 2 arms labs. If you don't have level 3 guns by 10 minutes an Onos can seriously wreck your ######.
<b>Which maps do arcs work best in? Which maps are the worst?</b>
Every map. ARCs are the marines only saving grace in the current build. Every game I have won against competent opposition has been won by ARCs. Best ARCing map is docking, hands down. Almost every single hive is hittable from a location miles away from the hive room itself, to a point where the map is actually quite imbalanced. The map which is least friendly to ARCing is cave, simply because most of the hives are pretty far away from any entrance into the room. However deposit hive is pretty ######ed with respect to ARCing.
<b>I typically get upgrades in this order: Celerity, Regen, Carapace, Adrenaline, Silence, Camo. Is there a better build order for specific maps?</b>
I don't particularly believe in certain upgrades being better on certain maps. As far as I'm concerned, celerity and carapace equate to the same thing in public play, which is more bullets needed to kill something. Sure, the speed boost celerity gives is nice in a general sense, but using it effectively in combat also requires far more skill than carapace does, so they boil down to the same thing. One thing celerity can't do is solidly demoralise a marine team in the early game. Try this: hop into the hive at game start, select crag hive, hop out, go gorge, hop back in, drop a shell the second crag research is done, hop out and heal it up, jump back in and research carapace. Fighting carapace skulks within the first minute of a game is simply heartbreaking as a marine. No matter how many bullets you hit with, things simply do not die.
<b>What are some good tactics for using shifts to teleport structures?</b>
There are none. Its a fun mechanic, but a bit of a gimmick. Echo will never win you a game or turn the tide of a battle, its just a nice little time and res saver now and again. If you are completely bored as commander, you can drop and echo whips into the marine's base, but it basically never works, and if it does, the marines are terrible.
Summit: ARCs from Flight Control through summit reception to nuke Crossroads usually works, if you can defend them.
Refinery: ARCs from Containment/Chasm to the wall right next to Pipeline also works great (long hallways for shooting aliens that come to attack the ARCs).
JPs with weapons 3 and LMGs can drill onoses from a distance and chase them without getting too close. They're okay for 1 - 3 onoses, if you have enough marines in one spot. However, I've seen bases lost because 3 - 4 JPs cannot kill 2 rushing onoses + gorge support in time, so dual exos are useful to research AFTER JP and claw exos...if only for initial base defense (changing over to support for ARC pushes later in the game).
best thing you can do is communicate with your team, tell them what you are planning and what you're going to research for them to see if you get support, tactic isn't important what you use as long as you communicate with your team.
in general jp's are better than exo's, but dual minigun exo's are incredibly powerful on defend AND offencive, main important thing to remmeber with exo's is that never, NEVER allow more than 2 exo's, depending on server size ofcourse. Basicly you should get both, jp's first and exo's the second.
ARC'S are always good, but needs your team, so again, communication is the key.
1. teach noob marine's, if they don't listen it's not your fault and raging doesn't help the issue.
2. never lose your temper, people tend's not listen yelling commanders and rather ignore them.
3. give your team orders and directions what to do, if you plan to attack with exo's, say so in advance and tell them your target, if you plan to attack with arc's, gather strike squad and attack etc.
remember that this is rts game, if you follow the one path that is "concidered" being the best, you can never improve, other tactic's might need more teamplay and it's in commanders hands to choose tactic for his team if they can pull it off, such as phasegate hiverush.
Also, you will occasionally get a team that can't skulk, or can't aim. Losing in that situation will be through no fault of your own, you can be the best commander on the planet and you will lose if your 'units' don't know how to fight.
Sometimes, your marines know how to fight, but FPS issues hamper them and give a significant advantage to the aliens. Again, not your fault.
Try not to get mad - angry commanders demoralize the team, and will get ignored. It also sets up a precedent for future games, if they see you commanding they will F4 or switch teams, or eject you.
Shotguns are ok once you have w1. Limit marines spending habits so they don't waste 20 res in the first 5minutes.
Never camo first. Anyone with more than 5minutes game time should know this.
From a marine perspective, Shotguns should be considered an investment. When I'm running raids, I often avoid bringing a shotgun because I don't want a needless death to cost me 20 personal resources. Shotguns should be salvaged whenever possible, and you want marines who understand that it's almost like being able to go to a Fade corpse and recover that corpse from an ally's death.
<b>Grenade Launchers</b> in public games are sort of a trap, and not worth getting. Too often the alien commander will be smart enough to place one whip at the hive or choke point, at which point the GL becomes completely useless and your players will continually commit suicide with the GL, accomplishing nothing.
<b>Flamethrowers</b> I used to think were totally useless but having learned of their unique properties (anti-clog, anti-cyst, and anti-energy) I think they work alright in a support role. I'm still not convinced they're <i>generally </i>better than Shotguns.
For <b>Upgrades </b>I like A1,W1,W2,W3,A2,A3. Even as a marine with hack-accusation-worthy aim, I admit wanting to get A1 up prior to weapon upgrades. Against camo I tend to balance upgrades (A/W/A/W/A/W)
Most maps have plenty of great<b> ARC locations</b>, but few are nastier than Onos Bar vs. Locker (docking) and Central Drilling vs. Deposit (mineshaft). Obviously the more resources that are stacked into a arc location, the more overall value there is to phasegating it up and ARCing from there. Honestly I think there's a lot of room for improvement for ARC UI, as there's no real reason a right-click move order for ARCs shouldn't briefly display their attack radius at the location they're going to move to. Currently it's painful to try to calculate the range on those things (one of the main reasons I'm so terrible at using them still.)
<b>Alien upgrades</b> I tend to go Celerity -> Carapace (after Leap) -> Adrenaline (after Bilebomb) -> Regen. Other starters work alright too, and I go with Celerity largely because it's paired with Shifts which are vital for getting teammates where they're needed and generating map pressure at the right locations (which leads to map control which leads to enough resources and tech points to have all the other toys to play with.) If not Celer-first, it's Camo or Carapace.
A lot of alien upgrade orders work for public play. The only one that's truly crippling is getting a 2nd hive without one of them being Crag (Carapace). Unless you're getting a fast 3rd hive and confident of map control, this is a terrible idea and leaves you with gimped Fades/Onos.
This. Even a single JP can sometimes take the hive down if they're lucky. When aliens are overly concentrating on one side of the map pulling this off really puts them on the backfoot.
1. Exos are garbage. Period. Get exos if you and your entire team decides "Hey, we don't want to spend any personal res on weapons" and somehow makes it in the end game.
The worse your players are, the better exos are. You will never see exos in competitive games unless someone's hella trolling.
2. When the enemy starts to field 2+ lerks (LMGs can take on one lerk, but if they start getting any more than that, you definitely need shotguns. It really depends on how confident you are in the enemy team though, because one pro lerk could rape your ######). 30 pres timing should be your shotgun timing.
3. Assuming no shade, you want armor 1 by the time they have fades. So if you are going the archaea tech route (Late phase, early upgrades), you can do anything as extreme as W1W2W3A1. In most cases if you go the standard mine->phase gate, you'll probably have W1W2A1 or W1A1W2W3.
4. Arcs are good on maps where you have a solid corner you can siege in, and your marine can hold the adjacent room. In docking, if they spawn in locker rooms and you secure bar. If they have departures/generator and you secure stability. In tram if they have warehouse and you secure hub/north point. That sort of thing.
Do note, arcs are tremendously expensive and are somewhat all in if you decide to rush them.
----
1. There are two and only two viable upgrade paths right now in the competitive scene.
Carapace -> Celerity. Nothing else (waste of upgrades, need them for tres fades), but in pubs you can do whatever you want after that.
or
Regen -> Carapace (When you get fades, don't rush this) --> Celerity.
Ever since they nerfed shifts from 1 res = 1 egg to 5 res = 2 eggs, going celerity is absolutely not worth it. If you are forced to spam eggs, you have probably already lost the game. Shade is tremendously all in but if you want to go shade
Silence -> Carapace -> Celerity or Camo -> Carapace -> Celerity. Do NOT go shift after you get camouflage unless they have no tech points for some reason.
2. A good tactic for using shifts is no strat. Anything you use them is for cuteness, like shifting a million bombard whips to the enemy base, or shifting your upgrades away because the hive you placed them at are dead.
lol'd
Watch your team's personal res levels... getting exos when your team has no one with near enough PRES because they've been buying shotties like mad is a waste. Another factor will be how much your team is working as a team... if they're working really well as a team, then exos become more of an option. My way of thinking is always get jetpacks unless some preset conditions on teamwork and pres are met by my team.
<u><b>What situations would GLs, flame throwers, shotguns work best in?</b></u>
Shotguns you want to have when you see lerks on the field... before then not really necessary. GLs and Flamethrowers are always the LAST 2 things i ever research.
<u><b>What order/timing is it best to get weapon/armor upgrades?</b></u>
A1, W1, W2, W3, A2, A3.
Armor 1 first to get your guys an additional bite against skulks. Weapons 1-3 right after that, because you want to deal with advanced lifeforms and W1-3 with shotguns are how you deal with Fades and Lerks. You want W3 before Onos enter the field. This is a fairly standardized build method nowadays.
<u><b>Which maps do arcs work best in? Which maps are the worst?</b></u>
Arcs are a judgement call, if your getting them in mid game, then you are forgoing some upgrades to do so... this can be effective or it can fail spectacularily, and this all depends on your marine players and how good they are at covering the arcs. Be confident of your team or in your own ability to corral them before you head down this route.
Once all upgrades are purchased and your in the endgame looking for things to spend TRES on... then why not Arcs.
Please note: there are some maps where you can use the gamey tactic of arcing through weird places... like Central Drilling -> Deposit in Mineshaft... expect those spots to get fixed so you can't do that in the future though
<u><b>I typically get upgrades in this order: Celerity, Regen, Carapace, Adrenaline, Silence, Camo. Is there a better build order for specific maps?</b></u>
I break them down as for their usefulness as a <u><b>FIRST </b></u>upgrade like so:
Adrenaline - Completely useless as a first upgrade.
Celerity - Quicker response times, also used as a crutch against the lack of walljumping skill from rookie skulks. Advantages in celerity can be duplicated by nagging on your team to walljump more.
Carapace - Only really useful with veteran players... rookie skulks won't really notice that they're dying 1 second later than they used to. So watch that first engagement to see how your team engages and how they do in the fight.
Regen - For rookies... this is good if your winning engagements, for Veterans this is great since they know how to utilize it (not engaging, running away when the odds shift). Gotta watch your team to determine if this would be good or not.
Camoflauge - Can be useful, as others have mentioned the penchant for rookie skulks to walk entire map lengths cloaked is a facepalming moment. Can also be negated by an aware marine commander. Can be devastating if used properly and not facing a decent marine commander.
Silence - The most underrated and overpowered upgrade IMHO. Removing the ability of marines you hear you is a huge advantage, it lowers their awareness of the area around them and lowers their overall awareness of aliens on the map. For rookies and veterans alike getting silence on a skulk will increase their effeciency a LOT, almost equally so... which is weird, but most welcome. My experience has been to see about a 20-40% increase in skulk efficiency if they are silenced. You'll hear complaints every once in awhile if you go this route... but hey... your commander... demote them to amoeba state if they get too cranky about it.
My typical upgrade path goes : Silence, Regen and Carapace (same time), Adrenaline, Camouflage and Celerity.
The last 3 get swapped around at times... depending on the game. I'm over 95% alien commander win percentage going this route... lost twice i think... once to an early shotgun rush, and another to a stacked vs rookie team.
As far as I'm concerned, a jetpack marine provides absolutely nothing that a vanilla marine doesn't, other than the ability to fly around for the lulz. Unless you're attacking cave or cargo, jetpacks seem to me to be a massive waste of resources, and usually result in your marines concentrating more on surviving than actually fulfilling a goal or completing a task.
Exos on the other hand are basically just intelligent ARCs, except with more firepower, against player and structure alike. People say that jetpacks are good against Onos, but no Onos worth a thing is actually going to be fighting your marines. He is going to be attacking where your marines are not. In such a case you better have the firepower to be able to pull him away from wherever he is. Thats the great thing about exos. It forces aliens to focus your marines, rather than your base.
As far as I'm concerned, a jetpack marine provides absolutely nothing that a vanilla marine doesn't, other than the ability to fly around for the lulz. Unless you're attacking cave or cargo, jetpacks seem to me to be a massive waste of resources, and usually result in your marines concentrating more on surviving than actually fulfilling a goal or completing a task.
Exos on the other hand are basically just intelligent ARCs, except with more firepower, against player and structure alike. People say that jetpacks are good against Onos, but no Onos worth a thing is actually going to be fighting your marines. He is going to be attacking where your marines are not. In such a case you better have the firepower to be able to pull him away from wherever he is. Thats the great thing about exos. It forces aliens to focus your marines, rather than your base.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
More intelligent than an ARC? That's debatable.
As far as I'm concerned, a jetpack marine provides absolutely nothing that a vanilla marine doesn't, other than the ability to fly around for the lulz. Unless you're attacking cave or cargo, jetpacks seem to me to be a massive waste of resources, and usually result in your marines concentrating more on surviving than actually fulfilling a goal or completing a task.
Exos on the other hand are basically just intelligent ARCs, except with more firepower, against player and structure alike. People say that jetpacks are good against Onos, but no Onos worth a thing is actually going to be fighting your marines. He is going to be attacking where your marines are not. In such a case you better have the firepower to be able to pull him away from wherever he is. Thats the great thing about exos. It forces aliens to focus your marines, rather than your base.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
lol, ok.
let me lay it out for you.
JPs scale with player skill.
A good marine with a JP:
**High dps because shot guns are effective against all lifeforms and structures.
**highly mobile, faster than a skulk! Decreases marines effective time to any where on the map, they can make sudden unpredictable attacks and exert huge map control.
**highly survivable, can stay in combat longer, and deal more damage because they are very difficult to hit.
**Extremely cost effective, 30 res for very fast effective damage against buildings and aliens
**Capable of dealing damage to the alien economy with out support from other marines or commander.
**Can chase down injured lifeforms to get a kill.
A bad marine with a JP:
**Not much faster than a standard marine
**Not much more survivable than a standard marine
**A waste of 30 res.
EXOs do not scale with skill, at all.
A good marine with EXO:
**High dps, even if the player can't aim. (high spread and vision obstruction make being a good aim meaningless)
**Is very slow, and thus predictable.
**Lack of PG and beacon, actually decreases the marines ability to control the map and respond to threats.
**Reasonable survivability, that is countered by bile bomb.
**Extremely expensive (not cost effective)
**Incapable of doing anything with out MAC or welder support.
A bad marine with EXO:
**High dps, even if the player can't aim. (high spread and vision obstruction make being a good aim meaningless)
**Is very slow, and thus predictable.
**Lack of PG and beacon, actually decreases the marines ability to control the map and respond to threats.
**Reasonable survivability, that is countered by bile bomb.
**Extremely expensive (not cost effective)
**Incapable of doing anything with out MAC or welder support.
So yes, in pub games where your marines aren't good enough to use jps, EXOs are a better choice. If you have even a few good shots / jpers on the marine team, jet packs tend to be the most cost effective end game tech.
Generally speaking the speed, PG, and beacon restrictions of the EXO are so severe that after marines get EXOs they actually lose the ability to control the map, and tend to lose a lot of RTs. This tends to make EXOs an all or nothing play, because if you EXO train dies, that is basically game. So much res invested in inefficient units that can't exert map control.
Mean while JPs are cheap, and expand your reach. JP marines can use phase gates to easily cover and attack multiple locations on the map. A solo jp marine can easily attack alien harvesters and keep their economy down.
As an alien, the only time I am scared is when Marines have W3, JPs, shotguns, and enough res to keep themselves equipped.
What situations/map is it best to get exos over jetpacks?
<b>I don't truly think youll ever find a situation where getting exos first over jetpacks is a better option, jetpacks are cheap and enable your entire team to perform better, good players can use jetpacks and be enabled to dispatch enemies much more safely and swiftly, exo's are pretty good when supported with macs but since they require welders to really push anything significantly youll be bogging down your team into exo welding that much earlier, they will also have a harder time doing it without jetpacks.</b>
What situations would GLs, flame throwers, shotguns work best in?
FLAMETHROWER:
<b>Something marines dont do enough in this game right now is harass the enemy alien economy, a good marine with a flamethrower unopposed can torch up pretty much all the cysts on the maps in little under 2 minutes, this puts a huge strain on the alien commander when hes already occupied with other things. Flamers also are pretty much the best weapon to utterly destroy a structure such a hive, two or three marines with flamers and jetpacks and pretty much tear down any hive without hydras set up if they are good enough. Flamers are also excellent as a support weapon for clearing out lerk gasses when pushing down hallways, and they can demolish an onos if the flamer is allowed to continue unloading on it.</b>
GRENADE LAUNCHER:
<b>Not the practical weapon for skulks lerks or fades, but the grenade launcher can be a pretty powerful support weapon for a push, you can create a killzone for aliens such as a hive entrance (w/out whips ofcourse), the grenades deal double damage to structures and can catch most higher tier lifeforms offguard with the weapons potiential for burst damage. Flying into the back end of a hive while your other team members are pushing from the front is also very effective, because usually pub aliens just sit right behind the entrance and a good marine can snag some ridiculous killstreaks from that.</b>
SHOTGUN:
<b>As of right now the absolute best weapon in the game for killing aliens of all types. Marines equipped with assault rifles have a hard time taking out fades and lerks early game due to the additional stress on aim from the fast movement of the higher mobility life forms. Shotguns allow marines to mediate their aim and consequent damage to specific points in time and this makes it easier for them to take out these lifeforms. The shotgun should always be purchased before the grenade launcher and flamethrower with no questions asked, in the hands of a good marine the shotgun can take on anything for its own worth.
</b>
What order/timing is it best to get weapon/armor upgrades?
<b>"unless your marines are unbelievably good shots" You should always purchase armor 1 -> weapons 1 -> weapons 2 -> armor 2 or weapons 3 -> etc.
Why? Because armor 1 prevents skulks from 3 biting you, or 1 parasite two biting you, this will have the biggest impact on your pub marines the earlier you can get it researched as it will give every marine those extra moments of protection to make their final shots. Generally after armor 1 you want to get started on the weapons upgrades however as they can assist players with not so high aim standards to take down targets.</b>
Which maps do arcs work best in? Which maps are the worst?
<b>I don't think theres any real tier level of arc usefulness based on map. Arcs are situational pushing tools you purchase when you have an opening to take down a hive with them. You shouldn't start a round as a marine comm thinking "oh im going to get some arcs this round" because really it all depends on the situation that arises from the game playing out.
That being said however, you can do some pretty disgusting things with arcs via bar to locker rooms, central drilling to deposit, arcing out nanogrid from either junction on veil, etc.</b>
<u>Aliens</u>
I typically get upgrades in this order: Celerity, Regen, Carapace, Adrenaline, Silence, Camo. Is there a better build order for specific maps?
What are some good tactics for using shifts to teleport structures?
<b>There is no better build order, every upgrade has the potiential to do something for your team that they can in turn exploit, it just takes good players who know what they are doing to use it to their advantage, in terms of sheer value however, carapace is unmatched for simply increasing the health pool of every alien on your team.
For pub games however right now purchasing shade hive first and going camo right off the bat is pretty effective, (only because of bad pub marine commanders who do not know how to scan anything for ######, or drop health for ######, and bad marine players who dont understand simple concepts like "cover your teammate" and "always stay moving when camo is present") </b>
Pretty sure they do. This game isn't all about a twicthy mouse cursor and how much health your current avatar has, there are certain things like positioning, timing, and awareness that have to be learned, over time, with skill.
Valid points I suppose. I still stick by my statement that a jetpack marine provides little to no extra benefit over a vanilla one though.
On the one hand, on paper exos do appear as an "all or nothing" tactic which work best against an alien team which are already defeated. On the other hand, jetpack marines aren't going to do a thing for you when the triple onos avalanche comes. If you are ever up against a lot of higher level lifeforms, jetpacks simply won't cut it. Even with every armor and weapon upgrade, light weapons simply don't have the damage output to deal with 3 or more Onos.
On the one hand, on paper exos do appear as an "all or nothing" tactic which work best against an alien team which are already defeated. On the other hand, jetpack marines aren't going to do a thing for you when the triple onos avalanche comes. If you are ever up against a lot of higher level lifeforms, jetpacks simply won't cut it. Even with every armor and weapon upgrade, light weapons simply don't have the damage output to deal with 3 or more Onos.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The people picking jetpacks over exo's obviously do not pub enough in high capacity servers or play on very select servers. In pretty much EVERY pub game I have played where the marines have won, the marines NEEDED Exo's to win period.
I play in high capacity servers all the time, and since we are just trading opinions here I'm going to say you are flat out wrong.
-Put the Prototype lab at the closest base to an alien hive
<i>Example</i>
Say you have Terminal Cafeteria and Departures
I would suggest getting the proto lab at Departures as its close to generator and the walk is down a narrow hall(good for exos)
-Large games always go shift hive first(10v10 or more players)
If the enemy comm is any good and sees you have camo
Its a near 100% win if you simply rush their hive and egg lock them
In these high pop games you need a shift to prevent getting egg locked
-Try to stock pile macs while exo tech is researching
Just non stop build macs(if you have the res) once exos are out
-Do not drop med/ammo early game if its 10v10 or larger
Those small res deductions really hurt the team overall
It is ok to drop them if 1-2 players are sniping alien upgrades/unbuilt hive but that is just about the only time
-Always be looking around the map
You can get a ton of info on what the enemy is doing based off what you hear in certain areas
-As soon as you see GLs you need to drop whips at each hive/choke point near hive
GLs will rape you so fast if you dont have whips up in time
It's weird, because in every high capacity (18+) public server (randomly chosen, I don't have favorites, though they usually end up being West Coast) I end up in, I have to spend my time convincing my Marines that they do not need Exos to win, that they aren't cost effective and they'd be better off with JPs once they consider the resources......
.... I've yet to end up wrong.
We're just being anecdotal here. I've yet to see a situation where I went "dang, I wish I had an Exo there" in public or competitive play. They're a slow, costly hindrance, reliant on constant team support, while a viable, cheaper option is readily available. No thanks.
You've never lost a power node to an Onos before?
We <b>do</b> play on different kinds of servers.
We <b>do</b> play on different kinds of servers.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'll wait for you to find where I even alluded to that.
We apparently post in different realities.