One thing I learnt from competitive play in ns1 (doesn't work so well for pubs, as players need more direction), is that it's not the commander's job to 'babysit' the team. Communicate all relevant information in as few words as possible, and have your team do the same thing. You have to trust that your team is doing the right thing on the field, and not dictate completely what they should be doing, as this can result in them being overly defensive, or perhaps overextending the team in being too aggressive at the wrong times. A good team has a commander that can trust the team is doing the right thing with the intel you provide (e.g. one person phasing back to deal with a single skulk rather than the whole team), and likewise has a team that can trust what the commander is doing too based on the intel they provide. This leaves the team open to just play, with less mic chatter to divert attention and drown out potential skulk ambushes, and confusion over discussing the metagame too much or specific orders and strats (rather than just knowing what to do and doing it). It also lets the commander focus on more important things like providing medpack and ammo support, or scanning, or being vigilant against potential rushes.
<!--quoteo(post=2055213:date=Jan 3 2013, 03:18 AM:name=d0ped0g)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (d0ped0g @ Jan 3 2013, 03:18 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2055213"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->One thing I learnt from competitive play in ns1 (doesn't work so well for pubs, as players need more direction), is that it's not the commander's job to 'babysit' the team. Communicate all relevant information in as few words as possible, and have your team do the same thing. You have to trust that your team is doing the right thing on the field, and not dictate completely what they should be doing, as this can result in them being overly defensive, or perhaps overextending the team in being too aggressive at the wrong times. A good team has a commander that can trust the team is doing the right thing with the intel you provide (e.g. one person phasing back to deal with a single skulk rather than the whole team), and likewise has a team that can trust what the commander is doing too based on the intel they provide. This leaves the team open to just play, with less mic chatter to divert attention and drown out potential skulk ambushes, and confusion over discussing the metagame too much or specific orders and strats (rather than just knowing what to do and doing it). It also lets the commander focus on more important things like providing medpack and ammo support, or scanning, or being vigilant against potential rushes.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is good advice for comp play, preventing 12 players on your team from talking in a pub however is pretty hard, too many trolls and jerks
why are you arguing wich one is better jetpack or exo ? they both are good and they have VERY different role.
you can't win a game if your team is full of exo's, period, unless you are playing againts totally unorganized alien team that doesn't know how to rush bases.
however, with jetpacks you can win, supported with arc's they give a lot of punch and is a lot more resource effective than exo's.
however again, exo's are effective too, and should be used cautiously, never have more than 2 exo's, most of the time 1 offencive and 1 defencive.
so in conclusion, get both jetpacks AND exo's, jp research is only 25tres and it's not THAT much you have to argue wich one is better because smartest thing to do in pub games is to get them both.
<!--quoteo(post=2055212:date=Jan 3 2013, 12:18 PM:name=Omar - The Wire)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Omar - The Wire @ Jan 3 2013, 12:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2055212"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'll wait for you to find where I even alluded to that.
We apparently post in different realities.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
An Exo in a marine fortification can take out an Onos without even being hit. He can probably kill two Onos without going down. Exos are unbeatable base defence. If you lose a power node to an Onos, an Exo could have stopped him, without issue.
<!--quoteo(post=2055215:date=Jan 3 2013, 12:29 PM:name=Juomari)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Juomari @ Jan 3 2013, 12:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2055215"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->why are you arguing wich one is better jetpack or exo ? they both are good and they have VERY different role.
you can't win a game if your team is full of exo's, period, unless you are playing againts totally unorganized alien team that doesn't know how to rush bases.
however, with jetpacks you can win, supported with arc's they give a lot of punch and is a lot more resource effective than exo's.
however again, exo's are effective too, and should be used cautiously, never have more than 2 exo's, most of the time 1 offencive and 1 defencive.
so in conclusion, get both jetpacks AND exo's, jp research is only 25tres and it's not THAT much you have to argue wich one is better because smartest thing to do in pub games is to get them both.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm argueing that jetpacks are useful in basically no situations, except when you want to let your marines fly around shouting "WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE". You walk into repair room hive, with your jetpack on, and you can now fly to a height 5 feet higher than you would otherwise have achieved. Wooooooow thats amazing. Definitely a game winner.
Meanwhile, as an exo, you can walk in with 8 skulks trailing behind you and put the hive on 50% before you even go down. That's if you're being a suicidal rambo. Two coordinates Exos can take a hive down by themselves in under 10 seconds.
<!--quoteo(post=2055125:date=Jan 3 2013, 01:25 PM:name=Katana-)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Katana- @ Jan 3 2013, 01:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2055125"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A good marine with EXO:<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> *Will not become EXO if not entirely sure that he will be supported. *Will not become EXO if your team already has EXO. *Will wait for MACs and marines and will not attack alone. *Will prefer to use ranged attacks. *Will always shoot in all directions in order to detect invisible onos. *Will retreat to nearest base after beacon. *Will "jump" if he attacked by skulks.
<!--quoteo(post=2055286:date=Jan 3 2013, 05:52 AM:name=Uzver)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Uzver @ Jan 3 2013, 05:52 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2055286"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->*Will not become EXO if not entirely sure that he will be supported. *Will not become EXO if your team already has EXO. *Will wait for MACs and marines and will not attack alone. *Will prefer to use ranged attacks. *Will always shoot in all directions in order to detect invisible onos. *Will retreat to nearest base after beacon. *Will "jump" if he attacked by skulks.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Too many times have I been in a game where a person or two got an exo, then ran off to attack, while yelling, "I NEED WELDERS". Then, when no one proceeds to weld them and they run off and die, they ###### and moan 'I HAD NO SUPPORT'. I then have to yell at them for being idiots for running off without support.
If you get jetpacks late game (after ~15 minutes) you're just going to be treading water. Jetpacks can't do anything in a hive when they have to fight fades, lerks, whips, and leap. Jetpacks are an onos counter, or good when you've kept the aliens down to 3 res nodes all game, otherwise, they are extremely overrated around here.
<!--quoteo(post=2055228:date=Jan 3 2013, 10:49 AM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Jan 3 2013, 10:49 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2055228"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->An Exo in a marine fortification can take out an Onos without even being hit. He can probably kill two Onos without going down. Exos are unbeatable base defence. If you lose a power node to an Onos, an Exo could have stopped him, without issue.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There are things called phasegates, jetpackets can use them.
I dont thunk you dun unden stand game ye... Its not about da up and da down innit, its more about de fact dem khaaaru can no longi it ye cos yus is fastah innit... Ya get me??!?!?! Nah... you prolly dun get me...
For only 10 res jetpacks are massively useful for map control though. And while the comm can't drop dual exo's, he can drop jetpacks plenty. I personally like the jetpack+flamethrower combo best. Having said that, exos rock as well, if played right.
<!--quoteo(post=2055228:date=Jan 3 2013, 02:49 AM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Jan 3 2013, 02:49 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2055228"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm argueing that jetpacks are useful in basically no situations, except when you want to let your marines fly around shouting "WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE". You walk into repair room hive, with your jetpack on, and you can now fly to a height 5 feet higher than you would otherwise have achieved. Wooooooow thats amazing. Definitely a game winner.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
seriously?
You don't use a JP to get off the ground or gain height, you use it to move extremely quickly.
JPs give marines speed. You can use them to fly across the map faster than most skulks can run.
A good jp marine is very very difficult to hit, and has the ability to hit and run, or escape when he is in trouble.
Also the dps of a jp shotgun marine at W3 isn't much lower than dual EXO.
<!--quoteo(post=2055345:date=Jan 3 2013, 03:25 PM:name=Katana-)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Katana- @ Jan 3 2013, 03:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2055345"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also the dps of a jp shotgun marine at W3 isn't much lower than dual EXO.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You could argue it was alot higher actually.
Exos take x seconds longer to get into the fight due to being slow and not being able to use phase gates. Jetpacks are in fights x seconds longer (normally x = a big number) thus their DPS is actually alot higher.
<!--quoteo(post=2055351:date=Jan 3 2013, 09:35 AM:name=PsympleJester)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PsympleJester @ Jan 3 2013, 09:35 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2055351"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You could argue it was alot higher actually.
Exos take x seconds longer to get into the fight due to being slow and not being able to use phase gates. Jetpacks are in fights x seconds longer (normally x = a big number) thus their DPS is actually alot higher.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Also rifles have no spin-up time either.
Please stop with the anti jetpack nonsense. I hate when commanders don't prioritize jetpacks. They are by far the best upgrade for marines. They make onos completely useless. They up the survivability of marines by about %1000. They improve mobility by a ton. There is no better way to support those exos and arcs than with a jetpack and welder.
<!--quoteo(post=2055354:date=Jan 3 2013, 10:47 AM:name=lumina)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (lumina @ Jan 3 2013, 10:47 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2055354"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Please stop with the anti jetpack nonsense. I hate when commanders don't prioritize jetpacks. They are by far the best upgrade for marines. They make onos completely useless. They up the survivability of marines by about %1000. They improve mobility by a ton. There is no better way to support those exos and arcs than with a jetpack and welder.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Jetpacks help against Oni, but they don't "make Onos completely useless.". That's silly. Onos are never completely useless.
I'd say the mobility it gives marines (ninja a pg or kill alien upgrades or even kill the hive) is more important than the ability to chase Onos. In pubs, most Onos go down because they don't get out of the base fast enough when the marines beacon.
<!--quoteo(post=2055366:date=Jan 3 2013, 10:17 AM:name=bongofish)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (bongofish @ Jan 3 2013, 10:17 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2055366"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Jetpacks help against Oni, but they don't "make Onos completely useless.". That's silly. Onos are never completely useless.
I'd say the mobility it gives marines (ninja a pg or kill alien upgrades or even kill the hive) is more important than the ability to chase Onos. In pubs, most Onos go down because they don't get out of the base fast enough when the marines beacon.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Okay, it makes them useless in one on ones, or even one vs onos + gorge. That onos better have a lot of support when it runs into decent jetpackers. The onos is then still pretty useless against the marines. He is only good for taking out structures.
Dual exosuits are NOT garbage - they are only as good as their pilot. Two or three dual exos can support an ARC push and keep every alien lifeform at bay (I purposely stay on top or behind the ARCs so that onoses find it harder to rush straight at me). One dual exo and some MACs or marine welders can very effectively defend a base if the exo stays far back from the base entrances and keeps his miniguns constantly spun-up - I was defending Repair Room on a game last night, supported by marine welders and MACs for a long time before being taken down by an all-in rush. The alien team remarked later that they simply could not get into Repair Room without a coordinated attack.
The problem is that most marines jump into an exosuit and start on a rambo mission to up their kill death ratio. They don't think about 'meaningless' stuff like base defense, or supporting ARC pushes, or providing support fire. They want to be on the front lines, shooting everything with their minigun. They waste their time on cysts and structures even with the threat of aliens close by. They walk INTO the hive while shooting, instead of standing back with the welder support and shooting from a distance. They are not cautious enough about tight corners, and they don't know how to shoot circle strafing skulks/lerks/fades off their feet. Even when an onos attacks, they stand still and slowly back up instead of strafing - exos are slow, but strafing is still better than being an immobile target. Even worse, they run their miniguns to overheat - it's always better to run them to 65% heat, let off for a second and spin them back up. You can keep up a near constant stream of fire like that.
Also, research jetpacks <b>before</b> exosuits, always. Exosuits scale with skill to a certain degree, but jetpacks scale even better. Jetpacks are cheap and very effective. Good JP marines can strafe-dodge attacks far more easily while still doing damage, they can more easily ninja PGs or upgrade structures, a single flamethrower JP can solo a mature hive in around 4 tanks of fuel while dodging attacks, and JPs can chase fleeing onoses down. JPs can be beaconed, they can weld, they can quickly respond to threats to the marine res nodes.
<!--quoteo(post=2055228:date=Jan 3 2013, 03:49 AM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Jan 3 2013, 03:49 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2055228"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->An Exo in a marine fortification can take out an Onos without even being hit. He can probably kill two Onos without going down. Exos are unbeatable base defence. If you lose a power node to an Onos, an Exo could have stopped him, without issue.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So would have a beacon, except instead of having to dedicate a very costly Marine to stay in 1 Marine fortified position, my beaconed Jetpackers can chase the Onos down and/or get right back into position within seconds.
<!--quoteo(post=2055228:date=Jan 3 2013, 03:49 AM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Jan 3 2013, 03:49 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2055228"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm argueing that jetpacks are useful in basically no situations<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Wow... lol.
Why is celerity always the first upgrade chosen? The speed boost only works outside of battle. While there is some advantage to moving around the map quickly and charging marines, the skulk bonus (30%) isn't even that great?
<!--quoteo(post=2055491:date=Jan 3 2013, 12:14 PM:name=Leusent-)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Leusent- @ Jan 3 2013, 12:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2055491"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Why is celerity always the first upgrade chosen? The speed boost only works outside of battle. While there is some advantage to moving around the map quickly and charging marines, the skulk bonus (30%) isn't even that great?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In big player count servers (more than 7vs7), going shift firsts lets the commander prevent egg lock.
During early game, Celerity is the more useful of the two shift upgrades.
On a smaller player count server, when you don't need the shift to spawn eggs, carapace or regen is probably more powerful.
<!--quoteo(post=2055492:date=Jan 3 2013, 03:16 PM:name=Katana-)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Katana- @ Jan 3 2013, 03:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2055492"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In big player count servers (more than 7vs7), going shift firsts lets the commander prevent egg lock.
During early game, Celerity is the more useful of the two shift upgrades.
On a smaller player count server, when you don't need the shift to spawn eggs, carapace or regen is probably more powerful.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
DC_DarklingJoin Date: 2003-07-10Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver
I didn't see this one yet, so I hope I did not read over it. But I love to upgrade EMP on the repair bots.
Repair bots free marines to do other stuff while they repair and build your base. And if something rushes in to bilebomb, bite or gore your base.. you just EMP.. and your marines got time to react (or you with beacon) before base is down.
Onos in a base/hive room? EMP his sorry ass so he cant run away faster, since he lacks energy.
<!--quoteo(post=2055354:date=Jan 4 2013, 01:47 AM:name=lumina)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (lumina @ Jan 4 2013, 01:47 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2055354"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Please stop with the anti jetpack nonsense. I hate when commanders don't prioritize jetpacks. They are by far the best upgrade for marines. They make onos completely useless. They up the survivability of marines by about %1000. They improve mobility by a ton. There is no better way to support those exos and arcs than with a jetpack and welder.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually MACs would do a far better job then a fluttering squishy jetpacker at servicing EXOs.
<!--quoteo(post=2055519:date=Jan 3 2013, 03:58 PM:name=measles)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (measles @ Jan 3 2013, 03:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2055519"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Actually MACs would do a far better job then a fluttering squishy jetpacker at servicing EXOs.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Until one single bile bomb lands and destroys the entire mac train in 5 seconds
<!--quoteo(post=2055345:date=Jan 3 2013, 05:25 PM:name=Katana-)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Katana- @ Jan 3 2013, 05:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2055345"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also the dps of a jp shotgun marine at W3 isn't much lower than dual EXO.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Are you actually crazy, or just trolling?
A single Exo will take a hive from 100% to 0% in two complete spinups. So that is about 11-13 seconds. If you honestly think there is another player held weapon in the game that can do that, then I don't know what game you are playing.
<!--quoteo(post=2055566:date=Jan 3 2013, 05:15 PM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Jan 3 2013, 05:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2055566"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Are you actually crazy, or just trolling?
A single Exo will take a hive from 100% to 0% in two complete spinups. So that is about 11-13 seconds. If you honestly think there is another player held weapon in the game that can do that, then I don't know what game you are playing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
... and all you would have had to do is read the post immediately after the line you quoted. I'd actually agree with those two in that a good marine's dps over lifespan is probably better than an exo considering how long it takes you to get to combat. In-combat and burst dps is the one that matters when taking down a hive thus reversing the advantage.
<!--quoteo(post=2055566:date=Jan 4 2013, 09:15 AM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Jan 4 2013, 09:15 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2055566"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Are you actually crazy, or just trolling?
A single Exo will take a hive from 100% to 0% in two complete spinups. So that is about 11-13 seconds. If you honestly think there is another player held weapon in the game that can do that, then I don't know what game you are playing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Is that before or after you've spent 10minutes lumbering to the hive, organising welder support, played chicken with a couple of onoses on the way and fended off numerous skulks? But yes 11 seconds <i>once </i>you get there.
<!--quoteo(post=2055566:date=Jan 3 2013, 03:15 PM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Jan 3 2013, 03:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2055566"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Are you actually crazy, or just trolling?
A single Exo will take a hive from 100% to 0% in two complete spinups. So that is about 11-13 seconds. If you honestly think there is another player held weapon in the game that can do that, then I don't know what game you are playing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Your logic is so horribly flawed and incorrect I just tested it out. I timed out your argument, because numbers don't lie.
These were done Summit, with Weapons 3, no Crags on the hive.
<!--sizeo:5--><span style="font-size:18pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><b>Dual Exo</b><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--> <b>pRes cost</b>: 75 <b>Tech Cost</b>: 50 (includes Single Exo upgrade) <b>Time to kill hive</b> 21 seconds - Dual Fire 35 seconds - Alternating Fire
<!--sizeo:5--><span style="font-size:18pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><b>Single Exo</b><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--> <b>pRes cost</b>: 50 <b>Tech Cost</b>: 30 <b>Time to kill hive</b> 43 seconds - Single Fire
<!--sizeo:5--><span style="font-size:18pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><b>4 Marines, Weapons 3, (Assuming Jetpackers) using Light Machine Guns</b><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--> <b>pRes cost</b>: 10 a piece <b>Tech Cost</b>: 115** <b>Time to kill hive</b> 9~ seconds
<!--sizeo:5--><span style="font-size:18pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><b>Movements</b><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--> <b>Movement time from center of Sub Access to firing line on Datacore Hive</b> 36 seconds - Exo 23 seconds - Marine on the ground 18 seconds - Jet Packer
My Tech Costs did not factor in buildings that were required for both (comm chair, proto, etc) Tech cost for Exos assumes: Exo, Dual Exo. Tech cost for JPs assumes: Jet Packs, Arms Lab W1, W2, W3.
**I don't argue that the end cost of W3 + JPs is higher on a direct path, but many of the tech you'd research on the way to Exos (Weapons upgrades, armor upgrades, Arms lab, etc) would be done regardless of which tech path you chose. So there is an argument to say the cost of my proposed W3 + JP is alleviated by normal build orders anyways.
You can kill a hive with 4 people in 27 seconds flat, or you could use an Exo, with 3 exposed support people and kill a hive in 57 seconds.
Comments
This is good advice for comp play, preventing 12 players on your team from talking in a pub however is pretty hard, too many trolls and jerks
you can't win a game if your team is full of exo's, period, unless you are playing againts totally unorganized alien team that doesn't know how to rush bases.
however, with jetpacks you can win, supported with arc's they give a lot of punch and is a lot more resource effective than exo's.
however again, exo's are effective too, and should be used cautiously, never have more than 2 exo's, most of the time 1 offencive and 1 defencive.
so in conclusion, get both jetpacks AND exo's, jp research is only 25tres and it's not THAT much you have to argue wich one is better because smartest thing to do in pub games is to get them both.
We apparently post in different realities.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
An Exo in a marine fortification can take out an Onos without even being hit. He can probably kill two Onos without going down. Exos are unbeatable base defence. If you lose a power node to an Onos, an Exo could have stopped him, without issue.
<!--quoteo(post=2055215:date=Jan 3 2013, 12:29 PM:name=Juomari)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Juomari @ Jan 3 2013, 12:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2055215"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->why are you arguing wich one is better jetpack or exo ? they both are good and they have VERY different role.
you can't win a game if your team is full of exo's, period, unless you are playing againts totally unorganized alien team that doesn't know how to rush bases.
however, with jetpacks you can win, supported with arc's they give a lot of punch and is a lot more resource effective than exo's.
however again, exo's are effective too, and should be used cautiously, never have more than 2 exo's, most of the time 1 offencive and 1 defencive.
so in conclusion, get both jetpacks AND exo's, jp research is only 25tres and it's not THAT much you have to argue wich one is better because smartest thing to do in pub games is to get them both.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm argueing that jetpacks are useful in basically no situations, except when you want to let your marines fly around shouting "WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE". You walk into repair room hive, with your jetpack on, and you can now fly to a height 5 feet higher than you would otherwise have achieved. Wooooooow thats amazing. Definitely a game winner.
Meanwhile, as an exo, you can walk in with 8 skulks trailing behind you and put the hive on 50% before you even go down. That's if you're being a suicidal rambo. Two coordinates Exos can take a hive down by themselves in under 10 seconds.
*Will not become EXO if not entirely sure that he will be supported.
*Will not become EXO if your team already has EXO.
*Will wait for MACs and marines and will not attack alone.
*Will prefer to use ranged attacks.
*Will always shoot in all directions in order to detect invisible onos.
*Will retreat to nearest base after beacon.
*Will "jump" if he attacked by skulks.
*Will not become EXO if your team already has EXO.
*Will wait for MACs and marines and will not attack alone.
*Will prefer to use ranged attacks.
*Will always shoot in all directions in order to detect invisible onos.
*Will retreat to nearest base after beacon.
*Will "jump" if he attacked by skulks.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Too many times have I been in a game where a person or two got an exo, then ran off to attack, while yelling, "I NEED WELDERS". Then, when no one proceeds to weld them and they run off and die, they ###### and moan 'I HAD NO SUPPORT'. I then have to yell at them for being idiots for running off without support.
There are things called phasegates, jetpackets can use them.
I dont thunk you dun unden stand game ye...
Its not about da up and da down innit, its more about de fact dem khaaaru can no longi it ye cos yus is fastah innit...
Ya get me??!?!?! Nah... you prolly dun get me...
seriously?
You don't use a JP to get off the ground or gain height, you use it to move extremely quickly.
JPs give marines speed. You can use them to fly across the map faster than most skulks can run.
A good jp marine is very very difficult to hit, and has the ability to hit and run, or escape when he is in trouble.
Also the dps of a jp shotgun marine at W3 isn't much lower than dual EXO.
You could argue it was alot higher actually.
Exos take x seconds longer to get into the fight due to being slow and not being able to use phase gates.
Jetpacks are in fights x seconds longer (normally x = a big number) thus their DPS is actually alot higher.
Exos take x seconds longer to get into the fight due to being slow and not being able to use phase gates.
Jetpacks are in fights x seconds longer (normally x = a big number) thus their DPS is actually alot higher.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Also rifles have no spin-up time either.
Jetpacks help against Oni, but they don't "make Onos completely useless.". That's silly. Onos are never completely useless.
I'd say the mobility it gives marines (ninja a pg or kill alien upgrades or even kill the hive) is more important than the ability to chase Onos. In pubs, most Onos go down because they don't get out of the base fast enough when the marines beacon.
I'd say the mobility it gives marines (ninja a pg or kill alien upgrades or even kill the hive) is more important than the ability to chase Onos. In pubs, most Onos go down because they don't get out of the base fast enough when the marines beacon.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Okay, it makes them useless in one on ones, or even one vs onos + gorge. That onos better have a lot of support when it runs into decent jetpackers. The onos is then still pretty useless against the marines. He is only good for taking out structures.
The problem is that most marines jump into an exosuit and start on a rambo mission to up their kill death ratio. They don't think about 'meaningless' stuff like base defense, or supporting ARC pushes, or providing support fire. They want to be on the front lines, shooting everything with their minigun. They waste their time on cysts and structures even with the threat of aliens close by. They walk INTO the hive while shooting, instead of standing back with the welder support and shooting from a distance. They are not cautious enough about tight corners, and they don't know how to shoot circle strafing skulks/lerks/fades off their feet. Even when an onos attacks, they stand still and slowly back up instead of strafing - exos are slow, but strafing is still better than being an immobile target. Even worse, they run their miniguns to overheat - it's always better to run them to 65% heat, let off for a second and spin them back up. You can keep up a near constant stream of fire like that.
Also, research jetpacks <b>before</b> exosuits, always. Exosuits scale with skill to a certain degree, but jetpacks scale even better. Jetpacks are cheap and very effective. Good JP marines can strafe-dodge attacks far more easily while still doing damage, they can more easily ninja PGs or upgrade structures, a single flamethrower JP can solo a mature hive in around 4 tanks of fuel while dodging attacks, and JPs can chase fleeing onoses down. JPs can be beaconed, they can weld, they can quickly respond to threats to the marine res nodes.
So would have a beacon, except instead of having to dedicate a very costly Marine to stay in 1 Marine fortified position, my beaconed Jetpackers can chase the Onos down and/or get right back into position within seconds.
<!--quoteo(post=2055228:date=Jan 3 2013, 03:49 AM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Jan 3 2013, 03:49 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2055228"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm argueing that jetpacks are useful in basically no situations<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Wow... lol.
Yeah that was definitely a "Can't tell if trolling or just..." situation.
In big player count servers (more than 7vs7), going shift firsts lets the commander prevent egg lock.
During early game, Celerity is the more useful of the two shift upgrades.
On a smaller player count server, when you don't need the shift to spawn eggs, carapace or regen is probably more powerful.
During early game, Celerity is the more useful of the two shift upgrades.
On a smaller player count server, when you don't need the shift to spawn eggs, carapace or regen is probably more powerful.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This, exactly.
But I love to upgrade EMP on the repair bots.
Repair bots free marines to do other stuff while they repair and build your base.
And if something rushes in to bilebomb, bite or gore your base.. you just EMP.. and your marines got time to react (or you with beacon) before base is down.
Onos in a base/hive room? EMP his sorry ass so he cant run away faster, since he lacks energy.
Actually MACs would do a far better job then a fluttering squishy jetpacker at servicing EXOs.
Until one single bile bomb lands and destroys the entire mac train in 5 seconds
Are you actually crazy, or just trolling?
A single Exo will take a hive from 100% to 0% in two complete spinups. So that is about 11-13 seconds. If you honestly think there is another player held weapon in the game that can do that, then I don't know what game you are playing.
A single Exo will take a hive from 100% to 0% in two complete spinups. So that is about 11-13 seconds. If you honestly think there is another player held weapon in the game that can do that, then I don't know what game you are playing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
... and all you would have had to do is read the post immediately after the line you quoted.
I'd actually agree with those two in that a good marine's dps over lifespan is probably better than an exo considering how long it takes you to get to combat. In-combat and burst dps is the one that matters when taking down a hive thus reversing the advantage.
A single Exo will take a hive from 100% to 0% in two complete spinups. So that is about 11-13 seconds. If you honestly think there is another player held weapon in the game that can do that, then I don't know what game you are playing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Is that before or after you've spent 10minutes lumbering to the hive, organising welder support, played chicken with a couple of onoses on the way and fended off numerous skulks? But yes 11 seconds <i>once </i>you get there.
A single Exo will take a hive from 100% to 0% in two complete spinups. So that is about 11-13 seconds. If you honestly think there is another player held weapon in the game that can do that, then I don't know what game you are playing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Your logic is so horribly flawed and incorrect I just tested it out. I timed out your argument, because numbers don't lie.
These were done Summit, with Weapons 3, no Crags on the hive.
<!--sizeo:5--><span style="font-size:18pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><b>Dual Exo</b><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
<b>pRes cost</b>: 75
<b>Tech Cost</b>: 50 (includes Single Exo upgrade)
<b>Time to kill hive</b>
21 seconds - Dual Fire
35 seconds - Alternating Fire
<!--sizeo:5--><span style="font-size:18pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><b>Single Exo</b><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
<b>pRes cost</b>: 50
<b>Tech Cost</b>: 30
<b>Time to kill hive</b>
43 seconds - Single Fire
<!--sizeo:5--><span style="font-size:18pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><b>4 Marines, Weapons 3, (Assuming Jetpackers) using Light Machine Guns</b><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
<b>pRes cost</b>: 10 a piece
<b>Tech Cost</b>: 115**
<b>Time to kill hive</b>
9~ seconds
<!--sizeo:5--><span style="font-size:18pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><b>Movements</b><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
<b>Movement time from center of Sub Access to firing line on Datacore Hive</b>
36 seconds - Exo
23 seconds - Marine on the ground
18 seconds - Jet Packer
My Tech Costs did not factor in buildings that were required for both (comm chair, proto, etc)
Tech cost for Exos assumes: Exo, Dual Exo.
Tech cost for JPs assumes: Jet Packs, Arms Lab W1, W2, W3.
**I don't argue that the end cost of W3 + JPs is higher on a direct path, but many of the tech you'd research on the way to Exos (Weapons upgrades, armor upgrades, Arms lab, etc) would be done regardless of which tech path you chose. So there is an argument to say the cost of my proposed W3 + JP is alleviated by normal build orders anyways.
You can kill a hive with 4 people in 27 seconds flat, or you could use an Exo, with 3 exposed support people and kill a hive in 57 seconds.