Side post on Celerity being good (or more to the point, the opportunity cost of going CAMO first is actually non zero, as opposed to say, CAMO last):
Doesn't slow you down (Cara)
Allows/Joined with shift for eggs (not just at hive, forward shift anyone?)
Make you faster (so aliens have mobility, and we enhance that) out of combat.
Makes you faster in combat: but no it doesn't you say, yes it does *untill you get hit* I say ... so the next person on these forums who says "doesn't work in combat" must be a Marine only (or a Camo-noob) ... that 10 meters you are covering whilst the marine fires at you is somehow not the important part of combat for you? What, do you dodge all over the hallway, get into range and then fail badly? I thought the *getting into range* was the tricky part?
Stops IDIOTS from going camo when the Marine comm has a recognisable clan tag and knows just how to counter.
If you go Cele first, I don't have to spam PLEASE GET SILENCE TOO KHAAM for 20 mins coz the khaam denied us eggs/resource nodes/2nd hive by getting: you guessed it: CAMO! but not silence, oh no, we can't actually get something that might help post obs' being built.
Works with Cara, Camo doesn't. Of course everything works with silence.
Basically: Cele and Cara. Still. Not that I think that is a bad thing, most other abilities are simply no fun to fight against as a marine, thus are balance nightmares.
It's not the not seeing a skulk due to camo that hurts, it is the skulk moving at a walk (thus quietly) ... most of us can hide a skulk and attack from the rear, we don't need Camo to move where a marine can't see us, we need silence so they can't hear us doing so. Of course, with silence, you can actually run still.
i mean, unless i'm having fun and trying to bite people in the face silence is SO much better. i mean, you gotta realize how much of a cue that stupid bite sound is. you can get 2 bites off the last guy in a line, and nobody realizes they've been attacked until he starts firing... or if he's bad, until his death scream.
and yeah, not giving up your location when running is amazing, but almost equally important, you can also listen and catch things your friggin loud-ass claws would normally cover up. So it makes it so i can run at full speed, and detect movement at the same time.
i'll grab silence on everything, except occasionally for onos.
attack sounds for lerk, gorge shadow step sounds for fade
<!--quoteo(post=2055618:date=Jan 4 2013, 01:32 AM:name=Omar - The Wire)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Omar - The Wire @ Jan 4 2013, 01:32 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2055618"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Your logic is so horribly flawed and incorrect I just tested it out. I timed out your argument, because numbers don't lie.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The only relevant part of that post is the part where an Exo takes 21 seconds. That seems quite long, and I'll test for myself, but Ok then, I was like 7 seconds off.
Comparing a single exo player to <b>4 other players</b> is laughable. Resources are generated and lost by the territory you hold. <b>Players cannot be conjured out of thin air</b>. The only resource that matters here is how many players it takes.
If you're doing anything right as commander, by the late stages of a game, resources should only be a secondary concern, with player placement taking up all of your time. This is primarily why jetpacks as a mode of transport is a bad reason for getting them. Sure, if your closest phase gate to an assault point is half a map away, then you are going to need them. However, if your closest phase gate to an assault point is half the map away, you are going to need a lot more than jetpacks to win. For example, you are going to need a new commander.
The time it takes an Exo to get to its destination is also entirely irrelevant. Why would you care whether it takes an exo 2 seconds or 2 minutes to get to a hive? All that matters is that it gets the job done when it gets there. The only scenario where travel time means remotely anything is in a race condition, in which case you are a bad commander because marines never win tech point races.
Sorry but, my opinion of marine strategy at the moment is very narrow and static, because the team as a whole is so weak at the moment. Your only hope of victory is to place a massive amount of power in a single location, and ovewhelm any alien defenders, then repeat for every hive on the map. Phasegates make individual speed completely irrelevant, and as long as you aren't dropping your prototype lab in your main base like a noob, the no phasing restriction on Exos shouldn't affect you.
<!--quoteo(post=2055761:date=Jan 3 2013, 10:09 PM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Jan 3 2013, 10:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2055761"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Comparing a single exo player to <b>4 other players</b> is laughable.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Since when has a rambo Exo done anything but become wasted res against some Skulks or a decent Fade? You're kidding. You have to be trolling. No commander has consistently gotten anything of use out of an Exo without support (AKA: Other players).
<!--quoteo(post=2055761:date=Jan 3 2013, 10:09 PM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Jan 3 2013, 10:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2055761"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b>Players cannot be conjured out of thin air</b>. The only resource that matters here is how many players it takes.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That sounds strangely like what an IP does. Concerning "how many players it takes", scale it down to 2 Marines and you're still faster than everything but a Dual Firing Exo <b>which wouldn't be in the position to kill a hive without support</b>. Furthermore, should the D-Exo die (something that even you can't deny happens) it's 75 res down the drain. The two marines combined would have lost 20 and are back on the field, fully equipped and redeployed in half the time.
<!--quoteo(post=2055761:date=Jan 3 2013, 10:09 PM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Jan 3 2013, 10:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2055761"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you're doing anything right as commander, by the late stages of a game, resources should only be a secondary concern, with player placement taking up all of your time. This is primarily why jetpacks as a mode of transport is a bad reason for getting them. Sure, if your closest phase gate to an assault point is half a map away, then you are going to need them. However, if your closest phase gate to an assault point is half the map away, you are going to need a lot more than jetpacks to win. For example, you are going to need a new commander.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> No one is contending they are selected as a "mode of transport". They just happen to double a marines mobility, increase his capabilities in combat, allow him to pursue weakened enemies and respond to threats quicker. A jetpack + phase gates and it's overwhelming how well the Marines can exert map control. Why on earth you'd want to lock your team into escorting one expensive mechanized unit and rely on the remainder to keep the rest of the map secure when you can have your entire team on offense, while simultaneously defending whatever threats arrive.
It's almost like you've never used a Jetpack. I'm not kidding, you sound like you have never picked one up... Or you did and it beat you up for your lunch money and made fun of your reading comprehension while calling your mom fat. Baffling.
<!--quoteo(post=2055761:date=Jan 3 2013, 10:09 PM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Jan 3 2013, 10:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2055761"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The time it takes an Exo to get to its destination is also entirely irrelevant. Why would you care whether it takes an exo 2 seconds or 2 minutes to get to a hive? All that matters is that it gets the job done when it gets there. The only scenario where travel time means remotely anything is in a race condition, in which case you are a bad commander because marines never win tech point races.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> So you're saying to me that if you had an Exo that cost half as half as much, moved twice as fast and maintained the same damage you'd still go with the slower one because it doesn't matter how fast it arrives? That is what you're telling me. You'd rather sink 50-75 res into a single unit, invest in the doubled time it takes to get to it's destination because you are <b>imagining</b> they have some kind of superior advantage.
<!--quoteo(post=2055761:date=Jan 3 2013, 10:09 PM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Jan 3 2013, 10:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2055761"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sorry but, my opinion of marine strategy at the moment is very narrow and static, because the team as a whole is so weak at the moment. Your only hope of victory is to place a massive amount of power in a single location, and ovewhelm any alien defenders, then repeat for every hive on the map.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> God that sounds tedious, long and prone to failure. Thank goodness you don't have to command any of my teams.
Anyways, hope some new person looking for Comming tips takes away the useful stuff in here.
<!--quoteo(post=2055771:date=Jan 4 2013, 07:50 AM:name=Omar - The Wire)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Omar - The Wire @ Jan 4 2013, 07:50 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2055771"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So you're saying to me that if you had an Exo that cost half as half as much, moved twice as fast and maintained the same damage you'd still go with the slower one because it doesn't matter how fast it arrives?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So you create an imbalanced unit and claim that I wouldn't want it? What a cunning argument.
<!--quoteo(post=2055771:date=Jan 4 2013, 07:50 AM:name=Omar - The Wire)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Omar - The Wire @ Jan 4 2013, 07:50 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2055771"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Furthermore, should the D-Exo die (something that even you can't deny happens) it's 75 res down the drain. The two marines combined would have lost 20 and are back on the field, fully equipped and redeployed in half the time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=2055783:date=Jan 4 2013, 01:09 AM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Jan 4 2013, 01:09 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2055783"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Is this why Gorges are better than Onos?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Except gorges don't fly. Well, without 2 gorges jump humping each other anyways. They also move slower than Onos, do negligible damage to marines, and have less than a quarter of its health, but that's besides the point.
<!--quoteo(post=2055831:date=Jan 4 2013, 11:28 AM:name=Makenshi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Makenshi @ Jan 4 2013, 11:28 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2055831"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Except gorges don't fly. Well, without 2 gorges jump humping each other anyways. They also move slower than Onos, do negligible damage to marines, and have less than a quarter of its health, but that's besides the point.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Now lets see if I can't find similar, substantial differences between an Exo and a jetpack...
<!--quoteo(post=2055836:date=Jan 4 2013, 04:44 AM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Jan 4 2013, 04:44 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2055836"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Now lets see if I can't find similar, substantial differences between an Exo and a jetpack...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> .... So you are telling me the gorge can output the same amount of damage and move as fast as a jp marine of any sort?
<!--quoteo(post=2055851:date=Jan 4 2013, 12:10 PM:name=Makenshi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Makenshi @ Jan 4 2013, 12:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2055851"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->.... So you are telling me the gorge can output the same amount of damage and move as fast as a jp marine of any sort?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, not that that is relevant, but the gorge can do more damage than any light marine can.
My point was that simply because jetpacks cost 10 res and not 75 does not mean they are better than an Exo, which is what it seems Omar was trying to allude to. As an example I used the exact same relative cost of the Onos to the Gorge. The gorge is important, and can do things the Onos cannot, but we all know the Onos is definitely worth the extra 65 res, even if it isn't strictly "better".
No, I think what Omarr is saying that jp is almost always a better investment than an exo. I think the majority of the players agree with this. The same is not true for gorge/onos.
Guys, you gotta see that the team is playing like. If your marines aren't winning battles, and armor upgrades just isn't cutting it. Getting JP won't help anything, you may get a player or two who can shine, but you need to give the team some longevity so they can take ground. Exos give green marines a chance to do this, also to see how skulks attack, where they go and gives them time to learn and aim. As long as you ball up, welding each other and comm healing, it's a viable option for public games.
Celerity is also a great first upgrade, speed make skulks harder to hit and you gain massive mobility with this upgrade. 4 skulks taking down a resource tower, marines rush new hive and by the time the marines start reloading, a hoard of skulks appear. 5 seconds healing and it's back to harassing.
Also Celerity us a deadly weapon to an experienced skulk, one who can wall jump effectively. Some of my best moments as aliens is when I get Celerity\Silence\Carapice. I may be a skulk, but I've seen Dodgeball - dodge, duck, dip, dive and dodge! I can literally dance around a corridor of 3+ marines and take the lot out single handed.
<!--quoteo(post=2056138:date=Jan 4 2013, 03:46 PM:name=Mattmyster)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mattmyster @ Jan 4 2013, 03:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2056138"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Guys, you gotta see that the team is playing like. If your marines aren't winning battles, and armor upgrades just isn't cutting it. Getting JP won't help anything, you may get a player or two who can shine, but you need to give the team some longevity so they can take ground. Exos give green marines a chance to do this, also to see how skulks attack, where they go and gives them time to learn and aim. As long as you ball up, welding each other and comm healing, it's a viable option for public games.
Celerity is also a great first upgrade, speed make skulks harder to hit and you gain massive mobility with this upgrade. 4 skulks taking down a resource tower, marines rush new hive and by the time the marines start reloading, a hoard of skulks appear. 5 seconds healing and it's back to harassing.
Also Celerity us a deadly weapon to an experienced skulk, one who can wall jump effectively. Some of my best moments as aliens is when I get Celerity\Silence\Carapice. I may be a skulk, but I've seen Dodgeball - dodge, duck, dip, dive and dodge! I can literally dance around a corridor of 3+ marines and take the lot out single handed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> 1 good marine would beat you easily, as they do to any skulk
in reality, celerity offers very little advantage to a good walljumping skulk. the speed difference is very small. cara is king for aliens
<!--quoteo(post=2055875:date=Jan 4 2013, 01:22 PM:name=Makenshi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Makenshi @ Jan 4 2013, 01:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2055875"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No, I think what Omarr is saying that jp is almost always a better investment than an exo. I think the majority of the players agree with this. The same is not true for gorge/onos.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Most people are still living in the past when Exos were 100% useless and jetpacks were completely overpowered.
Two things changed this completely. The first was the crag buff. A competent alien commander never has fewer than 2-3 crags next to a hive. At this point, anything less than direct, sustained, concentrated fire from light marines will fail to kill the hive time and time again. The rate of healing is simply too great, and rifles don't cut it. And if you think shotguns are good for taking down anything other than half built or completely deserted hives, then I don't know. I think you are thinking more in terms of theory than actual practice. To compound this issue, a marines damage output is decimated when using a jetpack. Sure, in theory the jetpack marine can stand his ground and focus the hive like a vanilla marine, but in practice, nobody does that. They all want to fly around and save themselves and try be evasive. This distracts them, and makes them miss.
The second thing to change the usefulness of jetpacks was the whip buff. Lets be honest, sure it was fun flying around as a jetpack with a shotgun or rifle, and being hard to kill and having fun killing skulks, but that's not why jetpacks were good. Jetpack Grenade Launcher, the ultimate game ender. This is the one and only reason commanders went jetpacks. Two GL JP marines in a hive room and it was a gaurenteed kill. You didn't even need to drop medpacks. Now, a single whip will counter that attack, and 2 whips will counter your entire team.
You don't send marines into a hive to annoy the aliens and leave dust clouds everywhere, you send them in to kill the hive. As it stands, jetpack marines cannot kill hives. Everything about the jetpack screams <b>unsustainable damage, inconsistent targeting, plain unreliable</b>. There is nothing that you as a commander, or you as an individual player can do to support a jetpacker. He is basically a lone rambo. Lone rambos used to be effective, they aren't anymore. Neither is the jetpack.
<!--quoteo(post=2056218:date=Jan 4 2013, 06:44 PM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Jan 4 2013, 06:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2056218"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think you are thinking more in terms of theory than actual practice.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ok, then let's talk practice. You know what I never see from practice? Marines going dual exo before jetpack and winning
<!--quoteo(post=2056228:date=Jan 5 2013, 01:57 AM:name=Makenshi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Makenshi @ Jan 5 2013, 01:57 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2056228"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Ok, then let's talk practice. You know what I never see from practice? Marines going dual exo before jetpack and winning<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You've never seen a stacked marine game where the commander goes Exos before Jetpack? You don't play enough bro.
<!--quoteo(post=2056229:date=Jan 4 2013, 07:02 PM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Jan 4 2013, 07:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2056229"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You've never seen a stacked marine game where the commander goes Exos before Jetpack? You don't play enough bro.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> lol what, you know I was begging the question on purpose right? So it takes a stacked team to pull off the rines going exo first. I think you just proved my point. Funny how this contrasts with your earlier post. <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm argueing that jetpacks are useful in basically no situations, except when you want to let your marines fly around shouting "WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE". You walk into repair room hive, with your jetpack on, and you can now fly to a height 5 feet higher than you would otherwise have achieved. Wooooooow thats amazing. Definitely a game winner.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=2056237:date=Jan 5 2013, 02:12 AM:name=Makenshi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Makenshi @ Jan 5 2013, 02:12 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2056237"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->lol what, you know I was begging the question on purpose right? So it takes a stacked team to pull off the rines going exo first. I think you just proved my point. Funny how this contrasts with your earlier post.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You said you've never seen a case where marines went Exo first and won. I was just going to call you a liar, but I decided to be more pragmatic about it. I guess I should have just called you a liar.
I've seen several posts that mentioned shotguns but only after weapon* upgrades. Then the thread went exo vs jp and my eyes started to glaze over so i skipped a few walls of text.
I was under the impression that shotguns were 17 per pellet x 10 pellets and the pellets didn't scale with upgrades.
<!--quoteo(post=2056246:date=Jan 5 2013, 02:28 AM:name=BentRing)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BentRing @ Jan 5 2013, 02:28 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2056246"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I've seen several posts that mentioned shotguns but only after weapon* upgrades. Then the thread went exo vs jp and my eyes started to glaze over so i skipped a few walls of text.
I was under the impression that shotguns were 17 per pellet x 10 pellets and the pellets didn't scale with upgrades.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nah, they definitely scale. Though I typically see shotguns as a way to bypass weapon upgrades.
<!--quoteo(post=2056246:date=Jan 4 2013, 04:28 PM:name=BentRing)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BentRing @ Jan 4 2013, 04:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2056246"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I've seen several posts that mentioned shotguns but only after weapon* upgrades. Then the thread went exo vs jp and my eyes started to glaze over so i skipped a few walls of text.
I was under the impression that shotguns were 17 per pellet x 10 pellets and the pellets didn't scale with upgrades.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The reason it is frequently a good idea to wait to get shotguns till after a few weapons upgrades is that at w2, it only takes half a shotgun blast to kill a skulk. This makes a shotgun marine pretty much invincible to skulks, unless he is outnumbered 3 to 1.
So generally it makes sense to invest your early res in weapon upgrades, and then upgrade shotguns because the investment in shotguns is more cost effective when they deal more damage. this is also true for marine pres, 20 res for a lvl 2 shotty is a better investment than 20 pres for a lvl 0 shotty.
I saw a couple people say that A1 was important because it makes skulks take an extra bite to kill marines. Unless we're talking several glancing bites, this is false.
Armour starts at 30, and adds 20 for each level that is researched. Against bite, each point of armour is effectively 2 hp. At A0, marines have 160 ehp (effective hp). They can be killed by 3 bites at 75 damage each for a total of 225 damage, or two bites for 150 damage and 1 parasite for 10 damage (or any glancing bite). At A1, marines have 200 ehp. Please note that this is still less than what 3 full damage bites can do, and is equal to two full damage bites plus a 2/3 damage glancing bite.
The reason that A1 is important is fades. Fades effectively do 81 damage (65 puncture damage, which does 25% more to players) to marines. Two swipes will do 162, killing an A0 marine, but not an A1 marine. If the fade surprises the marines, A0 is basically a guaranteed kill (they'll get the second swipe before the marine even knows s/he's been hit).
All that said, however, yes, A1 is probably effective against most skulks right now. It will be less so as they get more skilled.
<!--quoteo(post=2055651:date=Jan 3 2013, 07:37 PM:name=OnosFactory)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (OnosFactory @ Jan 3 2013, 07:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2055651"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Doesn't slow you down (Cara)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> They removed the carapace slowdown before release.
<!--quoteo(post=2054874:date=Jan 3 2013, 07:24 AM:name=MMZ_Torak)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MMZ_Torak @ Jan 3 2013, 07:24 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2054874"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's been my experience that, unless the marines are bad, Camo first games need to end fast. Especially if you choose Shift second. Once the marines start tech up arms lab upgrades, that Camo stuff will be less helpful.
Camo make players too cautious, lest they drop their Camo. Camo makes new players creep slowly across the map, staying cloaked the whole time.
It seems that UWE has managed to make Shift a viable First hive now, unlike NS1 where it was ALWAYS Crag, Shift, Shade (Or Defense, Movement, Sensory). Shade though is still lacking something to make it a viable first choice, IMHO.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
5 Pages late but, I remember NS1 going Movement->Defense->Sensory, always, I don't know why you think Shift first is only viable NOW. I agree that shade anything but 3rd is suicide though (unless the game is really one sided).
Comments
Doesn't slow you down (Cara)
Allows/Joined with shift for eggs (not just at hive, forward shift anyone?)
Make you faster (so aliens have mobility, and we enhance that) out of combat.
Makes you faster in combat: but no it doesn't you say, yes it does *untill you get hit* I say ... so the next person on these forums who says "doesn't work in combat" must be a Marine only (or a Camo-noob) ... that 10 meters you are covering whilst the marine fires at you is somehow not the important part of combat for you? What, do you dodge all over the hallway, get into range and then fail badly? I thought the *getting into range* was the tricky part?
Stops IDIOTS from going camo when the Marine comm has a recognisable clan tag and knows just how to counter.
If you go Cele first, I don't have to spam PLEASE GET SILENCE TOO KHAAM for 20 mins coz the khaam denied us eggs/resource nodes/2nd hive by getting: you guessed it: CAMO! but not silence, oh no, we can't actually get something that might help post obs' being built.
Works with Cara, Camo doesn't. Of course everything works with silence.
Basically: Cele and Cara. Still. Not that I think that is a bad thing, most other abilities are simply no fun to fight against as a marine, thus are balance nightmares.
It's not the not seeing a skulk due to camo that hurts, it is the skulk moving at a walk (thus quietly) ... most of us can hide a skulk and attack from the rear, we don't need Camo to move where a marine can't see us, we need silence so they can't hear us doing so. Of course, with silence, you can actually run still.
i mean, unless i'm having fun and trying to bite people in the face silence is SO much better. i mean, you gotta realize how much of a cue that stupid bite sound is. you can get 2 bites off the last guy in a line, and nobody realizes they've been attacked until he starts firing... or if he's bad, until his death scream.
and yeah, not giving up your location when running is amazing, but almost equally important, you can also listen and catch things your friggin loud-ass claws would normally cover up. So it makes it so i can run at full speed, and detect movement at the same time.
i'll grab silence on everything, except occasionally for onos.
attack sounds for lerk, gorge
shadow step sounds for fade
mobile listenening post as a skulk.
I love silence.
The only relevant part of that post is the part where an Exo takes 21 seconds. That seems quite long, and I'll test for myself, but Ok then, I was like 7 seconds off.
Comparing a single exo player to <b>4 other players</b> is laughable. Resources are generated and lost by the territory you hold. <b>Players cannot be conjured out of thin air</b>. The only resource that matters here is how many players it takes.
If you're doing anything right as commander, by the late stages of a game, resources should only be a secondary concern, with player placement taking up all of your time. This is primarily why jetpacks as a mode of transport is a bad reason for getting them. Sure, if your closest phase gate to an assault point is half a map away, then you are going to need them. However, if your closest phase gate to an assault point is half the map away, you are going to need a lot more than jetpacks to win. For example, you are going to need a new commander.
The time it takes an Exo to get to its destination is also entirely irrelevant. Why would you care whether it takes an exo 2 seconds or 2 minutes to get to a hive? All that matters is that it gets the job done when it gets there. The only scenario where travel time means remotely anything is in a race condition, in which case you are a bad commander because marines never win tech point races.
Sorry but, my opinion of marine strategy at the moment is very narrow and static, because the team as a whole is so weak at the moment. Your only hope of victory is to place a massive amount of power in a single location, and ovewhelm any alien defenders, then repeat for every hive on the map. Phasegates make individual speed completely irrelevant, and as long as you aren't dropping your prototype lab in your main base like a noob, the no phasing restriction on Exos shouldn't affect you.
<!--quoteo(post=2055761:date=Jan 3 2013, 10:09 PM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Jan 3 2013, 10:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2055761"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Comparing a single exo player to <b>4 other players</b> is laughable.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Since when has a rambo Exo done anything but become wasted res against some Skulks or a decent Fade? You're kidding. You have to be trolling. No commander has consistently gotten anything of use out of an Exo without support (AKA: Other players).
<!--quoteo(post=2055761:date=Jan 3 2013, 10:09 PM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Jan 3 2013, 10:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2055761"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b>Players cannot be conjured out of thin air</b>. The only resource that matters here is how many players it takes.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That sounds strangely like what an IP does. Concerning "how many players it takes", scale it down to 2 Marines and you're still faster than everything but a Dual Firing Exo <b>which wouldn't be in the position to kill a hive without support</b>. Furthermore, should the D-Exo die (something that even you can't deny happens) it's 75 res down the drain. The two marines combined would have lost 20 and are back on the field, fully equipped and redeployed in half the time.
<!--quoteo(post=2055761:date=Jan 3 2013, 10:09 PM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Jan 3 2013, 10:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2055761"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you're doing anything right as commander, by the late stages of a game, resources should only be a secondary concern, with player placement taking up all of your time. This is primarily why jetpacks as a mode of transport is a bad reason for getting them. Sure, if your closest phase gate to an assault point is half a map away, then you are going to need them. However, if your closest phase gate to an assault point is half the map away, you are going to need a lot more than jetpacks to win. For example, you are going to need a new commander.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> No one is contending they are selected as a "mode of transport". They just happen to double a marines mobility, increase his capabilities in combat, allow him to pursue weakened enemies and respond to threats quicker. A jetpack + phase gates and it's overwhelming how well the Marines can exert map control. Why on earth you'd want to lock your team into escorting one expensive mechanized unit and rely on the remainder to keep the rest of the map secure when you can have your entire team on offense, while simultaneously defending whatever threats arrive.
It's almost like you've never used a Jetpack. I'm not kidding, you sound like you have never picked one up... Or you did and it beat you up for your lunch money and made fun of your reading comprehension while calling your mom fat. Baffling.
<!--quoteo(post=2055761:date=Jan 3 2013, 10:09 PM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Jan 3 2013, 10:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2055761"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The time it takes an Exo to get to its destination is also entirely irrelevant. Why would you care whether it takes an exo 2 seconds or 2 minutes to get to a hive? All that matters is that it gets the job done when it gets there. The only scenario where travel time means remotely anything is in a race condition, in which case you are a bad commander because marines never win tech point races.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> So you're saying to me that if you had an Exo that cost half as half as much, moved twice as fast and maintained the same damage you'd still go with the slower one because it doesn't matter how fast it arrives? That is what you're telling me. You'd rather sink 50-75 res into a single unit, invest in the doubled time it takes to get to it's destination because you are <b>imagining</b> they have some kind of superior advantage.
<!--quoteo(post=2055761:date=Jan 3 2013, 10:09 PM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Jan 3 2013, 10:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2055761"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sorry but, my opinion of marine strategy at the moment is very narrow and static, because the team as a whole is so weak at the moment. Your only hope of victory is to place a massive amount of power in a single location, and ovewhelm any alien defenders, then repeat for every hive on the map.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> God that sounds tedious, long and prone to failure. Thank goodness you don't have to command any of my teams.
Anyways, hope some new person looking for Comming tips takes away the useful stuff in here.
So you create an imbalanced unit and claim that I wouldn't want it? What a cunning argument.
<!--quoteo(post=2055771:date=Jan 4 2013, 07:50 AM:name=Omar - The Wire)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Omar - The Wire @ Jan 4 2013, 07:50 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2055771"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Furthermore, should the D-Exo die (something that even you can't deny happens) it's 75 res down the drain. The two marines combined would have lost 20 and are back on the field, fully equipped and redeployed in half the time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Is this why Gorges are better than Onos?
Except gorges don't fly. Well, without 2 gorges jump humping each other anyways. They also move slower than Onos, do negligible damage to marines, and have less than a quarter of its health, but that's besides the point.
Now lets see if I can't find similar, substantial differences between an Exo and a jetpack...
.... So you are telling me the gorge can output the same amount of damage and move as fast as a jp marine of any sort?
Well, not that that is relevant, but the gorge can do more damage than any light marine can.
My point was that simply because jetpacks cost 10 res and not 75 does not mean they are better than an Exo, which is what it seems Omar was trying to allude to. As an example I used the exact same relative cost of the Onos to the Gorge. The gorge is important, and can do things the Onos cannot, but we all know the Onos is definitely worth the extra 65 res, even if it isn't strictly "better".
Celerity is also a great first upgrade, speed make skulks harder to hit and you gain massive mobility with this upgrade. 4 skulks taking down a resource tower, marines rush new hive and by the time the marines start reloading, a hoard of skulks appear. 5 seconds healing and it's back to harassing.
Also Celerity us a deadly weapon to an experienced skulk, one who can wall jump effectively. Some of my best moments as aliens is when I get Celerity\Silence\Carapice. I may be a skulk, but I've seen Dodgeball - dodge, duck, dip, dive and dodge! I can literally dance around a corridor of 3+ marines and take the lot out single handed.
Celerity is also a great first upgrade, speed make skulks harder to hit and you gain massive mobility with this upgrade. 4 skulks taking down a resource tower, marines rush new hive and by the time the marines start reloading, a hoard of skulks appear. 5 seconds healing and it's back to harassing.
Also Celerity us a deadly weapon to an experienced skulk, one who can wall jump effectively. Some of my best moments as aliens is when I get Celerity\Silence\Carapice. I may be a skulk, but I've seen Dodgeball - dodge, duck, dip, dive and dodge! I can literally dance around a corridor of 3+ marines and take the lot out single handed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1 good marine would beat you easily, as they do to any skulk
in reality, celerity offers very little advantage to a good walljumping skulk. the speed difference is very small. cara is king for aliens
Most people are still living in the past when Exos were 100% useless and jetpacks were completely overpowered.
Two things changed this completely. The first was the crag buff. A competent alien commander never has fewer than 2-3 crags next to a hive. At this point, anything less than direct, sustained, concentrated fire from light marines will fail to kill the hive time and time again. The rate of healing is simply too great, and rifles don't cut it. And if you think shotguns are good for taking down anything other than half built or completely deserted hives, then I don't know. I think you are thinking more in terms of theory than actual practice. To compound this issue, a marines damage output is decimated when using a jetpack. Sure, in theory the jetpack marine can stand his ground and focus the hive like a vanilla marine, but in practice, nobody does that. They all want to fly around and save themselves and try be evasive. This distracts them, and makes them miss.
The second thing to change the usefulness of jetpacks was the whip buff. Lets be honest, sure it was fun flying around as a jetpack with a shotgun or rifle, and being hard to kill and having fun killing skulks, but that's not why jetpacks were good. Jetpack Grenade Launcher, the ultimate game ender. This is the one and only reason commanders went jetpacks. Two GL JP marines in a hive room and it was a gaurenteed kill. You didn't even need to drop medpacks. Now, a single whip will counter that attack, and 2 whips will counter your entire team.
You don't send marines into a hive to annoy the aliens and leave dust clouds everywhere, you send them in to kill the hive. As it stands, jetpack marines cannot kill hives. Everything about the jetpack screams <b>unsustainable damage, inconsistent targeting, plain unreliable</b>. There is nothing that you as a commander, or you as an individual player can do to support a jetpacker. He is basically a lone rambo. Lone rambos used to be effective, they aren't anymore. Neither is the jetpack.
Ok, then let's talk practice. You know what I never see from practice? Marines going dual exo before jetpack and winning
You've never seen a stacked marine game where the commander goes Exos before Jetpack? You don't play enough bro.
lol what, you know I was begging the question on purpose right? So it takes a stacked team to pull off the rines going exo first. I think you just proved my point. Funny how this contrasts with your earlier post.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm argueing that jetpacks are useful in basically no situations, except when you want to let your marines fly around shouting "WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE". You walk into repair room hive, with your jetpack on, and you can now fly to a height 5 feet higher than you would otherwise have achieved. Wooooooow thats amazing. Definitely a game winner.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You said you've never seen a case where marines went Exo first and won. I was just going to call you a liar, but I decided to be more pragmatic about it. I guess I should have just called you a liar.
I was under the impression that shotguns were 17 per pellet x 10 pellets and the pellets didn't scale with upgrades.
I was under the impression that shotguns were 17 per pellet x 10 pellets and the pellets didn't scale with upgrades.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nah, they definitely scale. Though I typically see shotguns as a way to bypass weapon upgrades.
Jetpacks are amazing.
Flamethrowers are amazing.
Basically everything is amazing when used at the right time in the right way. Well, maybe not turrets.
But still, to see people just say, "This is good, get this. Don't get that, it sucks." makes me sad.
Never recycle RTs
Early/ MId game scan forward positions to remove aliens
I was under the impression that shotguns were 17 per pellet x 10 pellets and the pellets didn't scale with upgrades.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The reason it is frequently a good idea to wait to get shotguns till after a few weapons upgrades is that at w2, it only takes half a shotgun blast to kill a skulk. This makes a shotgun marine pretty much invincible to skulks, unless he is outnumbered 3 to 1.
So generally it makes sense to invest your early res in weapon upgrades, and then upgrade shotguns because the investment in shotguns is more cost effective when they deal more damage. this is also true for marine pres, 20 res for a lvl 2 shotty is a better investment than 20 pres for a lvl 0 shotty.
Armour starts at 30, and adds 20 for each level that is researched. Against bite, each point of armour is effectively 2 hp. At A0, marines have 160 ehp (effective hp). They can be killed by 3 bites at 75 damage each for a total of 225 damage, or two bites for 150 damage and 1 parasite for 10 damage (or any glancing bite). At A1, marines have 200 ehp. Please note that this is still less than what 3 full damage bites can do, and is equal to two full damage bites plus a 2/3 damage glancing bite.
The reason that A1 is important is fades. Fades effectively do 81 damage (65 puncture damage, which does 25% more to players) to marines. Two swipes will do 162, killing an A0 marine, but not an A1 marine. If the fade surprises the marines, A0 is basically a guaranteed kill (they'll get the second swipe before the marine even knows s/he's been hit).
All that said, however, yes, A1 is probably effective against most skulks right now. It will be less so as they get more skilled.
<!--quoteo(post=2055651:date=Jan 3 2013, 07:37 PM:name=OnosFactory)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (OnosFactory @ Jan 3 2013, 07:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2055651"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Doesn't slow you down (Cara)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They removed the carapace slowdown before release.
Camo make players too cautious, lest they drop their Camo. Camo makes new players creep slowly across the map, staying cloaked the whole time.
It seems that UWE has managed to make Shift a viable First hive now, unlike NS1 where it was ALWAYS Crag, Shift, Shade (Or Defense, Movement, Sensory). Shade though is still lacking something to make it a viable first choice, IMHO.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
5 Pages late but, I remember NS1 going Movement->Defense->Sensory, always, I don't know why you think Shift first is only viable NOW. I agree that shade anything but 3rd is suicide though (unless the game is really one sided).