<!--quoteo(post=2061943:date=Jan 17 2013, 09:53 PM:name=SupaDupaNoodle)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SupaDupaNoodle @ Jan 17 2013, 09:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2061943"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What are people talking about these upgrade swapping things. I actually haven't noticed anything....<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Celerity used to be below adren, and carapace below regen on your upgrade wheel. I spent too long in the first game wondering to myself why the khamm went adren not celerity as I look for the lit up icon in set postion..I dont normally bother checking the icon matches what I think it is.
I doubt its done on purpose but the sieging of Locker Room from the Bar corner is kinda lame. You can compare it with the old NS1 Veil map where you had two corridors in Marine Start from where you could siege Nano (Double) and deny it for the rest of the game. The Aliens had to pretty much overrun marine start to get double back.
I hope Bar gets moved up a bit to the left in the next Docking release, meaning the Marines will have to take the hallway leading to Locker to do a succesfull siege.
<!--quoteo(post=2061863:date=Jan 17 2013, 12:14 AM:name=rizza18)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rizza18 @ Jan 17 2013, 12:14 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2061863"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Well that ######s me to tears, NS has always been my favorite game...especially recently with NS2 since CSGO has gone to ######. Now after this patch, I can't enjoy my favorite game (NS2) anymore...these new skulk hitboxes are retarded, the map changes are all in aliens favor who already had an advantage. Well unbalanced now...thanks team.
Will be waiting for another big update before playing, this is majorly upsetting<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I always love these first posts, they bring so much to the community!
So because the hitbox of the skulk was "FIXED" and you're probably dieing more, you're going to complain!?!?
Waiting patiently for your next excellent post.........
<!--quoteo(post=2061971:date=Jan 17 2013, 06:36 AM:name=DTE)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DTE @ Jan 17 2013, 06:36 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2061971"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I doubt its done on purpose but the sieging of Locker Room from the Bar corner is kinda lame. You can compare it with the old NS1 Veil map where you had two corridors in Marine Start from where you could siege Nano (Double) and deny it for the rest of the game. The Aliens had to pretty much overrun marine start to get double back.
I hope Bar gets moved up a bit to the left in the next Docking release, meaning the Marines will have to take the hallway leading to Locker to do a succesfull siege.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Dux is aware of this and he's been working on resolving the issue. He knows it's lame, there just wasn't time to fix it for this update =p
<!--quoteo(post=2062029:date=Jan 17 2013, 04:40 PM:name=rantology)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rantology @ Jan 17 2013, 04:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2062029"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Dux is aware of this and he's been working on resolving the issue. He knows it's lame, there just wasn't time to fix it for this update =p<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
My bad then, I can't read every post on the forum (although I wish I could ^^)
<!--quoteo(post=2061708:date=Jan 17 2013, 01:16 AM:name=MrChoke)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MrChoke @ Jan 17 2013, 01:16 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2061708"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->NO! I am tired of that excuse. If it is so ***** hard to aim than fix that! There is no excuse for a 75% imbalance. Fix WHATEVER it takes and do it above everything else (short of the game crashing) If I could get my money back for this game I would. Not because the DEVs don't deserve the money overall but they don't deserve it right now until they re-evaluate their priorities.
BTW, I have now played 9 games since 3:00pm today. Aliens have won the 8 of them. Build 236 is off to a wonderful start.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
we need to find a middleground, because i don't like the idea of a marine buff... usually when i pub as marine i get 10 kills to 1 death, sometimes i've got about 50/60 kills to 1 death. this is because i have basic fps skills to anticipate pub skulk movement, hear their approach and generally outplay them. this transitions into late game against pub higher lifeforms where i have jetpack and therefore become almost unkillable unless i get trapped or overextend etc.
if marine was buffed... marine would be faaaaaaaaaaaaar too easy for 'decent' players and playing as alien would be incredibly frustrating as you'd die to noobs more often.
<!--quoteo(post=2062059:date=Jan 17 2013, 03:36 PM:name=tarquinbb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (tarquinbb @ Jan 17 2013, 03:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2062059"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->we need to find a middleground, because i don't like the idea of a marine buff... usually when i pub as marine i get 10 kills to 1 death, sometimes i've got about 50/60 kills to 1 death. this is because i have basic fps skills to anticipate pub skulk movement, hear their approach and generally outplay them. this transitions into late game against pub higher lifeforms where i have jetpack and therefore become almost unkillable unless i get trapped or overextend etc.
if marine was buffed... marine would be faaaaaaaaaaaaar too easy for 'decent' players and playing as alien would be incredibly frustrating as you'd die to noobs more often.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree. It is not that marines are weak, I usually get a positive k/d-ratio which does not mean much in NS2 but still. The point is, that NS2 isn't about killing - it is about mapcontrol, strategy and teamplay, even more so for marines. Marines hardly lack firepower or such, a decent marine team won't have any problems killing the aliens but that does not mean that they'll win. If I had to give a reason why marines loose more often than aliens that would be "Teamplay". Marines heavily rely on their commander and vice-versa while aliens do not. The khamm is hardly depends on the aliens and well, alien players hardly depend on the khamm - they can all work on their own. Marines, then again, have to expend so much effort just in order to accomplish the same. When a Skulk destroys an RT the commaner usually has to place a new powernode, has to place an new RT and marines have to go there, have to build the node and the RT. Well, and what if a marine destroys a few cysts and an RT? Hardly anything. As soon as the marine or simply goes somewhere else the khamm places new cysts and RT - that's it. You don't need any alien player to run around building stuff, you can completly focus on playing aggressivly - marines simply cannot.
I do not think that marines are weaker, in fact, I guess they have it more easy. What makes it so hard for marines is not their firepower, etc. but the fact that the khamm and commander plays so vastly different. The khamm resembles some sort of citybuilding game while a commander has to deal with all sorts of stuff - strategy and micromanagnment. I guess here lies the problem. Yeah of course, fades should probably receive a bit more armour, something should be done about the flamethrower, onos dominate the game too much - that's probably all true, but I do not think that's the main issue. While the commander is a hell of a job, khamm is perfect if you just want to relax. Even though NS2, just like NS1, relies on assymetrical teams I guess that's just over the top. In NS1 it was somewhat balanced as you usually had several gorges and therefore the aliens had to balance offensive and defensive a bit. Depending on the size of the team, aliens needed more than one player to be gorge, spend ressources on buildings and such, meaning that aliens could not be played purely offensivly like it is the case in NS2. In my opinion, there lies the problem. I am not sure but I guess it would do the game some good if the khamm would depend more on his team, maybe gorges had to complete buildings and such, just like the marines. In the current state, at least, the assymetrical gameplay favoures aliens too much. I don't think the alien lifeforms are overpowered or anything, it is just that playing marines requires so much teamplay, concentration and effort while the alien gameplay is pretty straight-forward. In pub games you just hardly find the quality of teamplay and concetration you need as a marine team in order to be effective.
Buffing marines would not solve the problem I think. Something should be done either about the commander (Give him a MAC at the beginng like in the beta or so) or about the khamm (gorges have to complete the buildings, whatsoever). Therefore: Buff the commander please and nerf the khamm!
Anyway, great patch. Playing gorge is some great fun, now that you can actually hit the marines!
<!--quoteo(post=2061892:date=Jan 17 2013, 04:44 AM:name=hakenspit)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hakenspit @ Jan 17 2013, 04:44 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2061892"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think you miss your own point, you change servers and the issue hitting skulks is not apparent....I would suggest you have played against servers filled with people who cant aim and then inversly can aim. You claim hit reg is easier early over later, that screams server performance issues (ticks dropping down to even 20 makes aiming a lot harder) rather than an actual issues with hit reg itself.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->So what is it? People aiming, or server performance? Both? Neither?
There is a problem with hit registration. This is not a 'skill' issue.
I've been in games where I've been on top of the scoreboard, with no problem hitting my opponents - except - for one or two people on the alien team. In one particular game this one guy would get my number every freaking time. Honestly, just when I thought I had him figured out, he would come at me a different way. He would kill me 5 times for any one time I killed him, despite me having no problem against other players. Was this a hit registration issue? No. This was a 'guy kicking my ass' issue, and I fully accepted that he was the better skilled player. Despite my standing on the marine side, he was very much my nemesis.
Yet on another server, with people I have played against before, I'm suddenly a rookie despite seeing my crosshair on my target and hearing the bullets impact? Yet because I see no damage numbers it means I'm unskilled? Sorry, disagree.
When you have played FPS games for 20 years, you kinda get to know whether you are hitting a target or not. I know when I have been 'schooled' by an alien who pulls off some great moves to get the upper hand. When it happens I'll often remark "dammmmmm!" as I respawn, since I know I got beat fair and square. However I also know when I had the upper hand.
Sometimes games don't work as they should. That's not a 'skill' issue, that's a game issue.
<!--quoteo(post=2061889:date=Jan 17 2013, 12:37 AM:name=|strofix|)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (|strofix| @ Jan 17 2013, 12:37 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2061889"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The guy is going off the deep end because, for the first time in his illustrious gaming career, he is playing a game in which it is actually possible to have extreme balance issues (not that there are, but there is the potential). Comparing the challenges faced by NS2 with regards to balance to any other game before it would be folly. They simply cannot be compared.
When you play NS2, you get something that basically no other game can provide; true asymmetry. But in order to experience this rare thing, there is a price. The game is essentially impossible to balance perfectly, and even if balance doe get close to that point, it won't be achieved quickly.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If 75% winrates aren't your definition of extreme then I'd sure as hell love to hear it.
I just love the fact that people use the word asymmetric as a towel to wipe away all the problems of this game, and how it leads to posts like this that don't actually explain anything at all.
<!--quoteo(post=2061708:date=Jan 16 2013, 05:16 PM:name=MrChoke)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MrChoke @ Jan 16 2013, 05:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2061708"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->NO! I am tired of that excuse. If it is so ***** hard to aim than fix that! There is no excuse for a 75% imbalance. Fix WHATEVER it takes and do it above everything else (short of the game crashing) If I could get my money back for this game I would. Not because the DEVs don't deserve the money overall but they don't deserve it right now until they re-evaluate their priorities.
BTW, I have now played 9 games since 3:00pm today. Aliens have won the 8 of them. Build 236 is off to a wonderful start.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
When I play with just one or two of my friends (all former pro FPS players in Counter-Strike: Source) we rarely lose games playing as marines.
Why? We communicate over Mumble and we frag everything in sight. Skulks, Fades, Onos, Lerk, Gorges it doesn't matter to us. All we need are rifles/shotgun, jetpacks when they're ready and our incredible aim and just 2 or 3 of us can take tech points early game and hold them with an armory while our commander has time to research jetpacks and phase gates. I'm usually pretty upset with myself if I have even a 5 to 1 KDR as I consider that unacceptable in any FPS game I play.
When we have 4 or 5 of us on I'd say it's damn near impossible for the aliens to win. It really does come down to this: 1. Marines missing their shots 2. Poor communication on pubs 3. Most people who play this game are so chicken and don't take any risks for fear of dying. I can't tell you how many times I've seen 4-5 marines being scared little children being held back by a gorge wall and a single gorge and a few hydras. I just jump past the wall (alone or with my friend(s)) and kill the gorge and take out the hydras and maybe a few skulks if they happen to be there. Only then will my team actually push forward. I find it easy to take down 2-3 skulks by myself by simply just jumping towards the inside of their turn as the average player sucks at turning and won't be able to hit me while I easily shred them with the rifle and finish off anyone else with the pistol.
1)Playing alien seems much more responsive (even without any fps gain compared to before) 2)I don't know if anything changed,but now marine sprinting gives me motion sickness O_o
<!--quoteo(post=2062363:date=Jan 17 2013, 05:52 PM:name=YMICrazy502)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (YMICrazy502 @ Jan 17 2013, 05:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2062363"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Wow that looks awesome. Sort of looks like a boar head though<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
that's what they were working off of, it's the old NS1 fade. I think they did a really good job keeping the sort of canine feel of the ns2 skulk and mixing it with the ns1 fade.. it's so good lol.
<!--quoteo(post=2062364:date=Jan 17 2013, 08:53 PM:name=Fen)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Fen @ Jan 17 2013, 08:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2062364"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just managed to play a few rounds
I'm going to say just 2 things
1)Playing alien seems much more responsive (even without any fps gain compared to before) 2)I don't know if anything changed,but now marine sprinting gives me motion sickness O_o<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Regarding #2, there's a setting you can change in-game. Under General, be sure to turn Camera Animation off. It sucks that certain settings tend to reset to default after every patch, but oh well.
<!--quoteo(post=2062370:date=Jan 18 2013, 03:09 AM:name=Karnaj)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Karnaj @ Jan 18 2013, 03:09 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2062370"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Regarding #2, there's a setting you can change in-game. Under General, be sure to turn Camera Animation off. It sucks that certain settings tend to reset to default after every patch, but oh well.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Had it on.
That's why i find strange that it happens only now
<!--quoteo(post=2062150:date=Jan 18 2013, 04:38 AM:name=Savant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Savant @ Jan 18 2013, 04:38 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2062150"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So what is it? People aiming, or server performance? Both? Neither?
There is a problem with hit registration. This is not a 'skill' issue.
I've been in games where I've been on top of the scoreboard, with no problem hitting my opponents - except - for one or two people on the alien team. In one particular game this one guy would get my number every freaking time. Honestly, just when I thought I had him figured out, he would come at me a different way. He would kill me 5 times for any one time I killed him, despite me having no problem against other players. Was this a hit registration issue? No. This was a 'guy kicking my ass' issue, and I fully accepted that he was the better skilled player. Despite my standing on the marine side, he was very much my nemesis.
Yet on another server, with people I have played against before, I'm suddenly a rookie despite seeing my crosshair on my target and hearing the bullets impact? Yet because I see no damage numbers it means I'm unskilled? Sorry, disagree.
When you have played FPS games for 20 years, you kinda get to know whether you are hitting a target or not. I know when I have been 'schooled' by an alien who pulls off some great moves to get the upper hand. When it happens I'll often remark "dammmmmm!" as I respawn, since I know I got beat fair and square. However I also know when I had the upper hand.
Sometimes games don't work as they should. That's not a 'skill' issue, that's a game issue.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Bit of both depending on the individual may be skill and may be server performance impacting hit reg. I will point out that when Endar had monash running a 100 player server (we had 70+ on it...think it went higher after I left) it still had tick rate about 15. So the servers I normally play on do have great performance, heck I will play with a 300 ping on some US or euro servers (there are a couple of nice servers that are out there...but there are more dodgy ones).
Hit reg has never been better in NS2, sure the codes not as tight as Source but valves spent almost 15 years on the HL engine and there where many grumbles about its hit reg.
Is hit reg the issue or server performance...the fact it disappears when you change servers (or appears) indicates the answer. Heck I wont go near internodes 24 player server unless I have to...its constantly dropping to 13 or so ticks even early in the game. But the Monash and even the kiwi One servers both have 24 player servers that are a dream to play on.
I have played FPS's for over 20 years too but I dont see how our age is relevent....seeing as the first FPS (maze war) was made back in the 70's...I dont see any relevence to your comment about how long you have been playing FPS's for. If you have a good stable server aiming is not hard...if you are a god on one server and a noob on teh other then either you forgot how to play, you are on a crappy server or played you previously against noobs who whilt not green dont know how to aim or play.
<!--quoteo(post=2062377:date=Jan 17 2013, 11:31 PM:name=hakenspit)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hakenspit @ Jan 17 2013, 11:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2062377"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Is hit reg the issue or server performance...the fact it disappears when you change servers (or appears) indicates the answer. Heck I wont go near internodes 24 player server unless I have to...its constantly dropping to 13 or so ticks even early in the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Problem is that it won't necessarily be the same server. I can't repro this to save my life, and that irks me. I've had hit registration issues appear on a server in one game on one day, but not in another game on another day. Same server, same number of players, and yet two results.
Did you think people were imagining gorge hit registration issues too? <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I have played FPS's for over 20 years too but I dont see how our age is relevent<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->My point was that I know how to aim, and I know the difference between getting beaten by a player and getting 'beaten' by a bug.
<b>I know when I've been beaten by a skilled opponent.</b>
I know when I have my crosshair over something and when I don't. When I can see green blood marks pop up on a lerk as he flies away, yet see no damage numbers, I know I've been robbed. I had a battle with a skulk where it played the death sound and he lived. Yet no damage numbers. Explain that. I've also been on the other end and soloed three marines as a skulk and lived knowing that I had no business being alive. They were far from amateurs.
I've done fraps video grabs and seen it first hand. I'm not hallucinating here. It happens, it's just a matter of figuring out WHY it happens, and HOW to fix it.
<!--quoteo(post=2062386:date=Jan 18 2013, 01:14 PM:name=Savant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Savant @ Jan 18 2013, 01:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2062386"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Problem is that it won't necessarily be the same server. I can't repro this to save my life, and that irks me. I've had hit registration issues appear on a server in one game on one day, but not in another game on another day. Same server, same number of players, and yet two results.
Did you think people were imagining gorge hit registration issues too? My point was that I know how to aim, and I know the difference between getting beaten by a player and getting 'beaten' by a bug.
<b>I know when I've been beaten by a skilled opponent.</b>
I know when I have my crosshair over something and when I don't. When I can see green blood marks pop up on a lerk as he flies away, yet see no damage numbers, I know I've been robbed. I had a battle with a skulk where it played the death sound and he lived. Yet no damage numbers. Explain that. I've also been on the other end and soloed three marines as a skulk and lived knowing that I had no business being alive. They were far from amateurs.
I've done fraps video grabs and seen it first hand. I'm not hallucinating here. It happens, it's just a matter of figuring out WHY it happens, and HOW to fix it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> For the hit reg to vary from day to day you have to put it down to server performance..bandwidth usage, CPU load, how long the server has been up for etc. Hit reg cant be good one day and crap the next...its not like UWE re-write the code over night and dont tell us. Gorge hit reg like parasite are not hitscan like LMG but projecttiles like grenades (unless something changed) so you cant put them in teh same boat as they dont approach things the same way. We dont have people saying gorge spit is fine one day but bad another...its always been bad....but thats at least in part due to it not being hitscan (which is cleaner and simpler than a projectile).
What your compaining about is the high server loads which makes a lot of servers strain, add in other factors (such as environmental, up time or server, whether its on a shared server box or on its own etc). This causes the erratic behaviour your moaning about where you cant seem to hit the side of a barn with a LMG. Its not hit reg so much as server performance, otherwise you would have bad hit reg all the time and not pwn the noobs some days and be pwned the others(assuming your playing with same people across different serves).
So whilst hit reg may not be the best its hardly the cause of the fluctuations your seeing in your abuility to hit a target. Either your encountering people who can play skulk (when you normally play with people who cant) or your on a crappy server.
<!--quoteo(post=2062333:date=Jan 17 2013, 07:06 PM:name=Satertek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Satertek @ Jan 17 2013, 07:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2062333"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Vote concede is awful. People are hitting it 10 minutes into games and ruining them.
At least modify it so that a unanimous or near unanimous vote is needed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I voted for a surrender system in countless threads purely because it seemed a better alternative to f4 (needing a majority vote to concede seemed like a better system than potentially having a minority f4 and ruin a game in progress anyway by creating unbalanced teams). However, it seems like a 'if you build it they will come' scenario, where because the feature has been implemented, everybody's using it (a lot more than f4 was ever used - at least on the servers I frequent where f4 didn't seem to be that much of a problem). Hopefully things will calm down a bit. It might just be a symptom of UWE introducing the feature - everybody just wants to try it out.
<!--quoteo(post=2062403:date=Jan 18 2013, 01:00 AM:name=hakenspit)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hakenspit @ Jan 18 2013, 01:00 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2062403"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->For the hit reg to vary from day to day you have to put it down to server performance..bandwidth usage, CPU load, how long the server has been up for etc. Hit reg cant be good one day and crap the next...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Yes... it can. There are some bugs that will only manifest themselves in a certain set of circumstances.
For example, it could be something obscure like researching weapons 1 before upgrading your armory when you have an observatory but no phase gate. Or it could happen if a player sprint in the moments before using their weapon. Or it could if the alien strafes and jumps at the same time. While these are examples that I have arbitrarily manufactured, you can see how there can be many ways this could happen. The bug would only manifest itself in that narrow circumstance, and it would have nothing to do with server variables. It could explain why it would happen at some times and not at others.
This is a *real* issue, not tied to server performance, since it happens on UWE's own servers. (Which are all 8v8) This is not 'high server load', this is not bandwidth. Those will produce markedly different outcomes, and I have SEEN the effect they cause.
So no, your assumptions about the cause of this are just that, assumptions. (And we all know what happens when you assume)
You can't explain this away by saying it is a crappy server or that I got 'schooled'. There are many complaints about this, and it continues to happen. When UWE fixes this, (and I have confidence that they will nail it down at some point) it will address an issue that has plagued the marines for quite some time.
<!--quoteo(post=2062333:date=Jan 17 2013, 09:06 PM:name=Satertek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Satertek @ Jan 17 2013, 09:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2062333"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Vote concede is awful. People are hitting it 10 minutes into games and ruining them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->The problem isn't the vote, the problem is that games can reach a point where people feel that they have no chance to win. That's an issue that the developers need to address. As it stands the game reaches a 'tipping point', and after you reach it you lose the ability to win the game. However, the game still continues to play since the other team hasn't 'finished it' yet. There is very little forgiveness.
If you lose a power node in base because there was no attack warning, then your main base is gone. You may have a second tech point but you can't recover from that. So while a single gorge bile spamming your main base power node can win them the game, there is no 'comeback mechanism' that the marines can employ. To those who suggest that the act of that one gorge should win them the game, then I say to you - end the game at that point. Pop up the 'aliens win' screen and dump people to the ready room so we can 'GG' and start a new game.
People concede when they are left in an unwinnable game. The only way to fix that is to either make it harder to win, or make it easier to come back after being dealt a setback. If not, then the game is over. Your team has lost. Why drag it out?
<!--quoteo(post=2062453:date=Jan 18 2013, 03:51 PM:name=Savant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Savant @ Jan 18 2013, 03:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2062453"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yes... it can. There are some bugs that will only manifest themselves in a certain set of circumstances.
For example, it could be something obscure like researching weapons 1 before upgrading your armory when you have an observatory but no phase gate. Or it could happen if a player sprint in the moments before using their weapon. Or it could if the alien strafes and jumps at the same time. While these are examples that I have arbitrarily manufactured, you can see how there can be many ways this could happen. The bug would only manifest itself in that narrow circumstance, and it would have nothing to do with server variables. It could explain why it would happen at some times and not at others.
This is a *real* issue, not tied to server performance, since it happens on UWE's own servers. (Which are all 8v8) This is not 'high server load', this is not bandwidth. Those will produce markedly different outcomes, and I have SEEN the effect they cause.
So no, your assumptions about the cause of this are just that, assumptions. (And we all know what happens when you assume)
You can't explain this away by saying it is a crappy server or that I got 'schooled'. There are many complaints about this, and it continues to happen. When UWE fixes this, (and I have confidence that they will nail it down at some point) it will address an issue that has plagued the marines for quite some time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Sorry but I disagree, my assumptions are just as valid as yours are and unless you can categorically disprove what I am saying then its a mute point your making.
Only time I have see changes in hit reg is; 1) a crappy server which has incorrect player limit 2) after a patch 3) bandwidth on my end (someone dl'ing)
To say "these are official servers" shows ignorance of the fact that these will be part of a bigger bank of server boxes, that will be sharing bandwidth in and out of a building. Some perhaps running multiple servers off the one box (not necessarily NS2), you may have other factors impacting things here...lets not kid outselves into thinking UWE (an indy game dev team) bought, own and run all the servers that they host around the globe. Even if they boaught the hardware the floor space will be leased and you know not what else is being run in the same building.
<!--quoteo(post=2062466:date=Jan 18 2013, 03:14 AM:name=hakenspit)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hakenspit @ Jan 18 2013, 03:14 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2062466"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sorry but I disagree, my assumptions are just as valid as yours are and unless you can categorically disprove what I am saying then its a mute point your making.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Sorry, but that is fallacious reasoning. 'Proving the negative" is a logical fallacy.
The hit registration issue exists. If you want to support your assertion that it is solely related to server performance, then the onus is on YOU to prove it.
Even the current playtesters are seeing this issue still present itself, as noted in <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=127249&st=0&p=2062464&#entry2062464" target="_blank">this post</a>.
The hit registration problem still exists. You can try and spin it all you like, but it won't change the reality that this problem is present and not simply a matter of 'bad servers'. You've offered nothing to support your point of view other than rhetoric.
Comments
Celerity used to be below adren, and carapace below regen on your upgrade wheel.
I spent too long in the first game wondering to myself why the khamm went adren not celerity as I look for the lit up icon in set postion..I dont normally bother checking the icon matches what I think it is.
If I could have a game that wasn't incredibly one sided from the get go, I'd probably enjoy it.
I hope Bar gets moved up a bit to the left in the next Docking release, meaning the Marines will have to take the hallway leading to Locker to do a succesfull siege.
Will be waiting for another big update before playing, this is majorly upsetting<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I always love these first posts, they bring so much to the community!
So because the hitbox of the skulk was "FIXED" and you're probably dieing more, you're going to complain!?!?
Waiting patiently for your next excellent post.........
I hope Bar gets moved up a bit to the left in the next Docking release, meaning the Marines will have to take the hallway leading to Locker to do a succesfull siege.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Dux is aware of this and he's been working on resolving the issue. He knows it's lame, there just wasn't time to fix it for this update =p
My bad then, I can't read every post on the forum (although I wish I could ^^)
BTW, I have now played 9 games since 3:00pm today. Aliens have won the 8 of them. Build 236 is off to a wonderful start.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
we need to find a middleground, because i don't like the idea of a marine buff... usually when i pub as marine i get 10 kills to 1 death, sometimes i've got about 50/60 kills to 1 death. this is because i have basic fps skills to anticipate pub skulk movement, hear their approach and generally outplay them. this transitions into late game against pub higher lifeforms where i have jetpack and therefore become almost unkillable unless i get trapped or overextend etc.
if marine was buffed... marine would be faaaaaaaaaaaaar too easy for 'decent' players and playing as alien would be incredibly frustrating as you'd die to noobs more often.
if marine was buffed... marine would be faaaaaaaaaaaaar too easy for 'decent' players and playing as alien would be incredibly frustrating as you'd die to noobs more often.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree. It is not that marines are weak, I usually get a positive k/d-ratio which does not mean much in NS2 but still. The point is, that NS2 isn't about killing - it is about mapcontrol, strategy and teamplay, even more so for marines. Marines hardly lack firepower or such, a decent marine team won't have any problems killing the aliens but that does not mean that they'll win. If I had to give a reason why marines loose more often than aliens that would be "Teamplay". Marines heavily rely on their commander and vice-versa while aliens do not. The khamm is hardly depends on the aliens and well, alien players hardly depend on the khamm - they can all work on their own. Marines, then again, have to expend so much effort just in order to accomplish the same. When a Skulk destroys an RT the commaner usually has to place a new powernode, has to place an new RT and marines have to go there, have to build the node and the RT. Well, and what if a marine destroys a few cysts and an RT? Hardly anything. As soon as the marine or simply goes somewhere else the khamm places new cysts and RT - that's it. You don't need any alien player to run around building stuff, you can completly focus on playing aggressivly - marines simply cannot.
I do not think that marines are weaker, in fact, I guess they have it more easy. What makes it so hard for marines is not their firepower, etc. but the fact that the khamm and commander plays so vastly different. The khamm resembles some sort of citybuilding game while a commander has to deal with all sorts of stuff - strategy and micromanagnment. I guess here lies the problem. Yeah of course, fades should probably receive a bit more armour, something should be done about the flamethrower, onos dominate the game too much - that's probably all true, but I do not think that's the main issue. While the commander is a hell of a job, khamm is perfect if you just want to relax. Even though NS2, just like NS1, relies on assymetrical teams I guess that's just over the top. In NS1 it was somewhat balanced as you usually had several gorges and therefore the aliens had to balance offensive and defensive a bit. Depending on the size of the team, aliens needed more than one player to be gorge, spend ressources on buildings and such, meaning that aliens could not be played purely offensivly like it is the case in NS2. In my opinion, there lies the problem. I am not sure but I guess it would do the game some good if the khamm would depend more on his team, maybe gorges had to complete buildings and such, just like the marines. In the current state, at least, the assymetrical gameplay favoures aliens too much. I don't think the alien lifeforms are overpowered or anything, it is just that playing marines requires so much teamplay, concentration and effort while the alien gameplay is pretty straight-forward. In pub games you just hardly find the quality of teamplay and concetration you need as a marine team in order to be effective.
Buffing marines would not solve the problem I think. Something should be done either about the commander (Give him a MAC at the beginng like in the beta or so) or about the khamm (gorges have to complete the buildings, whatsoever). Therefore: Buff the commander please and nerf the khamm!
Anyway, great patch. Playing gorge is some great fun, now that you can actually hit the marines!
There is a problem with hit registration. This is not a 'skill' issue.
I've been in games where I've been on top of the scoreboard, with no problem hitting my opponents - except - for one or two people on the alien team. In one particular game this one guy would get my number every freaking time. Honestly, just when I thought I had him figured out, he would come at me a different way. He would kill me 5 times for any one time I killed him, despite me having no problem against other players. Was this a hit registration issue? No. This was a 'guy kicking my ass' issue, and I fully accepted that he was the better skilled player. Despite my standing on the marine side, he was very much my nemesis.
Yet on another server, with people I have played against before, I'm suddenly a rookie despite seeing my crosshair on my target and hearing the bullets impact? Yet because I see no damage numbers it means I'm unskilled? Sorry, disagree.
When you have played FPS games for 20 years, you kinda get to know whether you are hitting a target or not. I know when I have been 'schooled' by an alien who pulls off some great moves to get the upper hand. When it happens I'll often remark "dammmmmm!" as I respawn, since I know I got beat fair and square. However I also know when I had the upper hand.
Sometimes games don't work as they should. That's not a 'skill' issue, that's a game issue.
When you play NS2, you get something that basically no other game can provide; true asymmetry. But in order to experience this rare thing, there is a price. The game is essentially impossible to balance perfectly, and even if balance doe get close to that point, it won't be achieved quickly.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If 75% winrates aren't your definition of extreme then I'd sure as hell love to hear it.
I just love the fact that people use the word asymmetric as a towel to wipe away all the problems of this game, and how it leads to posts like this that don't actually explain anything at all.
BTW, I have now played 9 games since 3:00pm today. Aliens have won the 8 of them. Build 236 is off to a wonderful start.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
When I play with just one or two of my friends (all former pro FPS players in Counter-Strike: Source) we rarely lose games playing as marines.
Why? We communicate over Mumble and we frag everything in sight. Skulks, Fades, Onos, Lerk, Gorges it doesn't matter to us. All we need are rifles/shotgun, jetpacks when they're ready and our incredible aim and just 2 or 3 of us can take tech points early game and hold them with an armory while our commander has time to research jetpacks and phase gates. I'm usually pretty upset with myself if I have even a 5 to 1 KDR as I consider that unacceptable in any FPS game I play.
When we have 4 or 5 of us on I'd say it's damn near impossible for the aliens to win. It really does come down to this:
1. Marines missing their shots
2. Poor communication on pubs
3. Most people who play this game are so chicken and don't take any risks for fear of dying. I can't tell you how many times I've seen 4-5 marines being scared little children being held back by a gorge wall and a single gorge and a few hydras. I just jump past the wall (alone or with my friend(s)) and kill the gorge and take out the hydras and maybe a few skulks if they happen to be there. Only then will my team actually push forward. I find it easy to take down 2-3 skulks by myself by simply just jumping towards the inside of their turn as the average player sucks at turning and won't be able to hit me while I easily shred them with the rifle and finish off anyone else with the pistol.
TLDR: Learn to aim and take some risks
At least modify it so that a unanimous or near unanimous vote is needed.
This fade model should be in build 238... it looks so much meaner than the default one.
This fade model should be in build 238... it looks so much meaner than the default one.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wow that looks awesome. Sort of looks like a boar head though
<img src="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c5/Boar's_head_erased_(scottish_heraldry).svg/368px-Boar's_head_erased_(scottish_heraldry).svg.png" border="0" class="linked-image" />
I'm going to say just 2 things
1)Playing alien seems much more responsive (even without any fps gain compared to before)
2)I don't know if anything changed,but now marine sprinting gives me motion sickness O_o
<img src="http://users.skynet.be/bk234542/images/Fade%20render.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
that's what they were working off of, it's the old NS1 fade. I think they did a really good job keeping the sort of canine feel of the ns2 skulk and mixing it with the ns1 fade.. it's so good lol.
I'm going to say just 2 things
1)Playing alien seems much more responsive (even without any fps gain compared to before)
2)I don't know if anything changed,but now marine sprinting gives me motion sickness O_o<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Regarding #2, there's a setting you can change in-game. Under General, be sure to turn Camera Animation off. It sucks that certain settings tend to reset to default after every patch, but oh well.
Had it on.
That's why i find strange that it happens only now
There is a problem with hit registration. This is not a 'skill' issue.
I've been in games where I've been on top of the scoreboard, with no problem hitting my opponents - except - for one or two people on the alien team. In one particular game this one guy would get my number every freaking time. Honestly, just when I thought I had him figured out, he would come at me a different way. He would kill me 5 times for any one time I killed him, despite me having no problem against other players. Was this a hit registration issue? No. This was a 'guy kicking my ass' issue, and I fully accepted that he was the better skilled player. Despite my standing on the marine side, he was very much my nemesis.
Yet on another server, with people I have played against before, I'm suddenly a rookie despite seeing my crosshair on my target and hearing the bullets impact? Yet because I see no damage numbers it means I'm unskilled? Sorry, disagree.
When you have played FPS games for 20 years, you kinda get to know whether you are hitting a target or not. I know when I have been 'schooled' by an alien who pulls off some great moves to get the upper hand. When it happens I'll often remark "dammmmmm!" as I respawn, since I know I got beat fair and square. However I also know when I had the upper hand.
Sometimes games don't work as they should. That's not a 'skill' issue, that's a game issue.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Bit of both depending on the individual may be skill and may be server performance impacting hit reg.
I will point out that when Endar had monash running a 100 player server (we had 70+ on it...think it went higher after I left) it still had tick rate about 15.
So the servers I normally play on do have great performance, heck I will play with a 300 ping on some US or euro servers (there are a couple of nice servers that are out there...but there are more dodgy ones).
Hit reg has never been better in NS2, sure the codes not as tight as Source but valves spent almost 15 years on the HL engine and there where many grumbles about its hit reg.
Is hit reg the issue or server performance...the fact it disappears when you change servers (or appears) indicates the answer.
Heck I wont go near internodes 24 player server unless I have to...its constantly dropping to 13 or so ticks even early in the game.
But the Monash and even the kiwi One servers both have 24 player servers that are a dream to play on.
I have played FPS's for over 20 years too but I dont see how our age is relevent....seeing as the first FPS (maze war) was made back in the 70's...I dont see any relevence to your comment about how long you have been playing FPS's for.
If you have a good stable server aiming is not hard...if you are a god on one server and a noob on teh other then either you forgot how to play, you are on a crappy server or played you previously against noobs who whilt not green dont know how to aim or play.
Did you think people were imagining gorge hit registration issues too?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I have played FPS's for over 20 years too but I dont see how our age is relevent<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->My point was that I know how to aim, and I know the difference between getting beaten by a player and getting 'beaten' by a bug.
<b>I know when I've been beaten by a skilled opponent.</b>
I know when I have my crosshair over something and when I don't. When I can see green blood marks pop up on a lerk as he flies away, yet see no damage numbers, I know I've been robbed. I had a battle with a skulk where it played the death sound and he lived. Yet no damage numbers. Explain that. I've also been on the other end and soloed three marines as a skulk and lived knowing that I had no business being alive. They were far from amateurs.
I've done fraps video grabs and seen it first hand. I'm not hallucinating here. It happens, it's just a matter of figuring out WHY it happens, and HOW to fix it.
Did you think people were imagining gorge hit registration issues too?
My point was that I know how to aim, and I know the difference between getting beaten by a player and getting 'beaten' by a bug.
<b>I know when I've been beaten by a skilled opponent.</b>
I know when I have my crosshair over something and when I don't. When I can see green blood marks pop up on a lerk as he flies away, yet see no damage numbers, I know I've been robbed. I had a battle with a skulk where it played the death sound and he lived. Yet no damage numbers. Explain that. I've also been on the other end and soloed three marines as a skulk and lived knowing that I had no business being alive. They were far from amateurs.
I've done fraps video grabs and seen it first hand. I'm not hallucinating here. It happens, it's just a matter of figuring out WHY it happens, and HOW to fix it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
For the hit reg to vary from day to day you have to put it down to server performance..bandwidth usage, CPU load, how long the server has been up for etc.
Hit reg cant be good one day and crap the next...its not like UWE re-write the code over night and dont tell us.
Gorge hit reg like parasite are not hitscan like LMG but projecttiles like grenades (unless something changed) so you cant put them in teh same boat as they dont approach things the same way.
We dont have people saying gorge spit is fine one day but bad another...its always been bad....but thats at least in part due to it not being hitscan (which is cleaner and simpler than a projectile).
What your compaining about is the high server loads which makes a lot of servers strain, add in other factors (such as environmental, up time or server, whether its on a shared server box or on its own etc). This causes the erratic behaviour your moaning about where you cant seem to hit the side of a barn with a LMG.
Its not hit reg so much as server performance, otherwise you would have bad hit reg all the time and not pwn the noobs some days and be pwned the others(assuming your playing with same people across different serves).
So whilst hit reg may not be the best its hardly the cause of the fluctuations your seeing in your abuility to hit a target. Either your encountering people who can play skulk (when you normally play with people who cant) or your on a crappy server.
At least modify it so that a unanimous or near unanimous vote is needed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I voted for a surrender system in countless threads purely because it seemed a better alternative to f4 (needing a majority vote to concede seemed like a better system than potentially having a minority f4 and ruin a game in progress anyway by creating unbalanced teams). However, it seems like a 'if you build it they will come' scenario, where because the feature has been implemented, everybody's using it (a lot more than f4 was ever used - at least on the servers I frequent where f4 didn't seem to be that much of a problem). Hopefully things will calm down a bit. It might just be a symptom of UWE introducing the feature - everybody just wants to try it out.
Most combat flight sims are too.
For example, it could be something obscure like researching weapons 1 before upgrading your armory when you have an observatory but no phase gate. Or it could happen if a player sprint in the moments before using their weapon. Or it could if the alien strafes and jumps at the same time. While these are examples that I have arbitrarily manufactured, you can see how there can be many ways this could happen. The bug would only manifest itself in that narrow circumstance, and it would have nothing to do with server variables. It could explain why it would happen at some times and not at others.
This is a *real* issue, not tied to server performance, since it happens on UWE's own servers. (Which are all 8v8) This is not 'high server load', this is not bandwidth. Those will produce markedly different outcomes, and I have SEEN the effect they cause.
So no, your assumptions about the cause of this are just that, assumptions. (And we all know what happens when you assume)
You can't explain this away by saying it is a crappy server or that I got 'schooled'. There are many complaints about this, and it continues to happen. When UWE fixes this, (and I have confidence that they will nail it down at some point) it will address an issue that has plagued the marines for quite some time.
If you lose a power node in base because there was no attack warning, then your main base is gone. You may have a second tech point but you can't recover from that. So while a single gorge bile spamming your main base power node can win them the game, there is no 'comeback mechanism' that the marines can employ. To those who suggest that the act of that one gorge should win them the game, then I say to you - end the game at that point. Pop up the 'aliens win' screen and dump people to the ready room so we can 'GG' and start a new game.
People concede when they are left in an unwinnable game. The only way to fix that is to either make it harder to win, or make it easier to come back after being dealt a setback. If not, then the game is over. Your team has lost. Why drag it out?
For example, it could be something obscure like researching weapons 1 before upgrading your armory when you have an observatory but no phase gate. Or it could happen if a player sprint in the moments before using their weapon. Or it could if the alien strafes and jumps at the same time. While these are examples that I have arbitrarily manufactured, you can see how there can be many ways this could happen. The bug would only manifest itself in that narrow circumstance, and it would have nothing to do with server variables. It could explain why it would happen at some times and not at others.
This is a *real* issue, not tied to server performance, since it happens on UWE's own servers. (Which are all 8v8) This is not 'high server load', this is not bandwidth. Those will produce markedly different outcomes, and I have SEEN the effect they cause.
So no, your assumptions about the cause of this are just that, assumptions. (And we all know what happens when you assume)
You can't explain this away by saying it is a crappy server or that I got 'schooled'. There are many complaints about this, and it continues to happen. When UWE fixes this, (and I have confidence that they will nail it down at some point) it will address an issue that has plagued the marines for quite some time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sorry but I disagree, my assumptions are just as valid as yours are and unless you can categorically disprove what I am saying then its a mute point your making.
Only time I have see changes in hit reg is;
1) a crappy server which has incorrect player limit
2) after a patch
3) bandwidth on my end (someone dl'ing)
To say "these are official servers" shows ignorance of the fact that these will be part of a bigger bank of server boxes, that will be sharing bandwidth in and out of a building.
Some perhaps running multiple servers off the one box (not necessarily NS2), you may have other factors impacting things here...lets not kid outselves into thinking UWE (an indy game dev team) bought, own and run all the servers that they host around the globe. Even if they boaught the hardware the floor space will be leased and you know not what else is being run in the same building.
The hit registration issue exists. If you want to support your assertion that it is solely related to server performance, then the onus is on YOU to prove it.
Even the current playtesters are seeing this issue still present itself, as noted in <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=127249&st=0&p=2062464&#entry2062464" target="_blank">this post</a>.
The hit registration problem still exists. You can try and spin it all you like, but it won't change the reality that this problem is present and not simply a matter of 'bad servers'. You've offered nothing to support your point of view other than rhetoric.