<!--quoteo(post=2068006:date=Jan 28 2013, 01:44 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Jan 28 2013, 01:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2068006"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Or alternatively it is a rational decision based on the fact that people will quite happily continue a game long, long, LONG past its rational conclusion, easily for hours on end if you let them, until half the server leaves out of utter boredom.
It is not difficult to see when the game will either end soon, or end up like that. In that instance it is perfectly rational and extremely sensible to recycle. If you cannot lead your team to victory, you can at least spare them the tedium of defeat.
As I keep saying, the point of the commander is to make the game work smoothly. Conceding is a part of that. The commander kind of is an admin in a lot of ways, or at least he's a lot like a GM in a tabletop game. He makes all the technical stuff in the background work. He orchestrates the function of the game, arranges it so that players get to fight each other and he makes the buildings appear when you want to build things and makes the support powers trigger when you need them. The ENTIRE POINT of the commander is to know what is best for you without you saying or possibly even thinking so. That's why the commander has things like beacon and the ability to give out guns/lifeforms and the ability to control expansion direction.
Having the ability to skip the mop up phase and prevent its slight tendency to turn into a server killing nightmare is a perfectly rational extension of that. That the more idiotic breed of player may decide to turn it into his own personal table flipper is not a flaw in the mechanic, any more than the commander mechanic in general is flawed due to players being able to command incredibly badly in general.
Bad players != bad mechanics.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I am only disputing the commander ending the game for people that do not want it to end. If the commander said "I want to recycle and end this lost cause" and no one objects; knock your self out.
If people want to play out the end game; let them. I do not think it is the commanders right to ruin the game for 5-11 other people on his team if they want to play it out.
It is akin to the kid taking his ball and leaving the park because his team is losing the game. It is petulant and selfish. There are three other mechanisms in place for the commander to express his desire to end the game: Vote to concede, F4, Disconnect. There is no need to force your decision on people who just want to play the game to it's logical conclusion, even if you believe or know it is hopeless.
-edit-
Furthermore, I have never seen a GM decide that his players had no hope and force them to stop playing. The GM, as much as the commander, also carries a certain responsibility to the players. Bad GMs who force their players into things they don't want or don't want to do don't have players for long. The same can be said of Commanders.
If the alien team just took out your second tech point as marine, and you have no reasonable options of retaking ground, the only correct option is to recycle IPs and let the game end gracefully.
ScardyBobScardyBobJoin Date: 2009-11-25Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
I don't think its necessary now that vote/auto concede are implemented, but I don't see how to get rid of it without impacting the comm's legitimate reasons for recycle. You could make it so the comm couldn't recycle the last IP, but a comm could recycle everything else to get the same effect.
That would be fine, except I've yet to encounter a situation like that where it is unanimously in explicit favour of continuing playing, and I also have yet to encounter a situation when actually recycling and ending it causes most people enough distress to stop them playing.
My point is, a lot of people just don't communicate, don't vote, don't do anything if you recycle, but will continue to blindly play on if you let them.
My only conclusion is that it just doesn't matter to these people if it goes one way or the other, or perhaps they are too dumb to realise anything that is happening to them, maybe they're elaborate bots or something I dunno.
In any case, the logical thing to do is recycle, start the game again, reduce the probability of actual active players getting annoyed and ragequitting (because they can't win a vote if a sizeable chunk of the server are just unresponsive) and the game devolving into an utter mess where all the people with an apparent conscious understanding of the game have dropped off, and then everyone else follows because suddenly nobody can operate the commander properly.
Basically, the game has a sizeable population (in public play at least) of completely replaceable, non-communicative, non-interacting, non-commital players, who literally have to have every decision made for them because they do not respond in any consistent or rational way to choices presented to them. They move, they shoot, they sometimes move and shoot quite well, but they're like sufficiently advanced bots in terms of actually getting the game to work. They just don't function without you basically railroading them.
They're presumably the same people who would build a team entirely of single minigun exos if their res permitted it, or who will mechanically save up for a fade and then die with it really fast, then keep blindly skulk charging until they hit 50 res again. I don't get why people play the game like that but they honest to god don't seem to be able to function without a competent command staff, and sometimes for that to remain on the server, you need to make decisions for the minority over the majority, because the minority are the only ones with any clue what's happening, they actually are more valuable.
Natural Selection is a TEAM game. What part of team involves 1 player deciding the fate of the match for everyone else. You can justify it with whatever excuses you like, making that decision to recycle when there's a valid alternative, concede, is not in the interest of the other players on that server.
Yes there are times it's the logical option to concede, but if a majority don't want too, you shouldn't force them too.
I totally agree with the OP. I made a thread about this myself when I first started NS2. I makes me so mad that one person unilaterally decides the game needs to end and he sells the base.
We have concede vote. The team needs to decide. And fix the game to make sure it is enforced.
great points about plenty of servers, I think we have more servers than players most of the time.
As for the recycle, I think if the item in question is withing XX distance of a FUNCTIONING comm chair, it cannot be recycled.
Why? Because you can't kill the power in your own base as a marine, and most of your important buildings are placed within XX distance of a command chair... thus you prevent griefing by recycle.
What you fail to consider is that is it not the commander's decision to make. If a person thinks that the game should end, he is free to suggest concede on the mic or in chat. People will react accordingly. If it is a 'rational decision' then the game ends. If it is not, the game continues. The point is that the PLAYERS are the ones that should be making that choice.
As I keep saying, the point of the commander is to make the game work smoothly. Conceding is a part of that. The commander kind of is an admin in a lot of ways, or at least he's a lot like a GM in a tabletop game.
Not even close. The commander is none of those things. The commander is just ONE player in a game who happens to have a different role. That role does NOT include acting like a spoiled child when they are losing and recycling the base.
People need to grow up. Seriously. If you can't stand where the game is going. If you can't handle the fact the other 15 people want to keep playing, then the disconnect button is only a couple clicks away. Use it.
I don't think its necessary now that vote/auto concede are implemented, but I don't see how to get rid of it without impacting the comm's legitimate reasons for recycle. You could make it so the comm couldn't recycle the last IP, but a comm could recycle everything else to get the same effect.
With the concede vote now in I agree that the recycle option is more for griefing purposes now.
If people want the game to end select concede, having 1 person being able to jump in and sell everything is a bad mechanic that can hurt game play.
I still dont understand why marines get to recycle building but aliens dont (considering now both teams have T and P res pools), this was a logical inclusion for NS1 as marines only had 1 pools of income (T-res).
Now I see it as adding imbalance to the ecnomies, aliens already have cysts to waste money on.
upgrades that when killed require re-building and re-researching too and a total inability to save a res tower under attack.
Marines dont have to spend money on anything besides upgrades, extractors etc...they dont have to pay for the power nodes and as such all their res gets sunk into physical upgrades.
I would suggest that recycling is now no longer needed for the marine team, after all even removing building recycling marines can still pick up dropped weapons.
An alien team cant sell one of its upgrades to drop an extractor when res locked....so why should marines be able to?
Remove the base recycling options, its no longer needed now we have concede.
If you cant get half your team to concede then recycling is a griefing act as the majority wants to play it out.
I don't agree with adding new complexity to the game rules in an attempt to control something that can't realistically be controlled. If the comm decides that his team is going to give up, then his team is going to give up no matter how many obstacles you set in his path. If he can't recycle his whole base, he'll recycle half of it. Or just the arms lab. Or he'll stop dropping meds, etc etc. A player in that position of power over his team has the ability to end the game on his team's behalf, there's simply no avoiding that.
Do we really need it?People used to justify recycling the marine base as a means to concede. Now we have a concede vote in the interface, so I'd really like to see something done to prevent trolls and others from recycling marine bases en masse and causing the game to end. There is no justification for it at all.
Let's be clear here, I am NOT suggesting marines lose the ability to recycle. What I am saying is that there should be sensible limits. For example...
Is there ever a situation when if a marine team has two IPs, that you would want to recycle both of those IPs? Of course not. Disable recycling of IPs unless other IPs are built. For 6 player teams and lower, make it a 1 IP minimum. Anything above that is a 2 IP minimum. Same for armory. No reason to recycle an armory if you have no other armories on the map. So disable the ability to recycle an armory if it is the last one. If there are more than one, protect the advanced armory. Observatory, same thing. Should never need to recycle your last observatory. The rest? For sake of people doing weird tactics, we can let it go. If a troll decides to recycle a proto lab, he can be ejected before he does any significant damage. Same for phase gates and robotics labs etc.
Another possible option is to also limit how many structures can be recycled in a given period of time, but remove the limitation if a base is under attack. (so anything covered by the same power node could be recycled if one building was under attack.)
In any case, I'd like to see the game end by 'natural' means, or by concede. If one person - who happens to be in the comm chair - thinks the game is over, but the rest of the people on the team disagree, then they are free to F4 and find a new server. If a troll is in the comm chair, then the game shouldn't allow him to troll his team via recycling.
It's pointless to recycle an operational RT for example too, in the time it takes a solo skulk to kill it, it will generate 5 res, and 5 pres. Per person. Not worth cycling. Recycling a base you're getting faceraped in? Yeah, makes sense. I like recycling.
I also like recycling when it's an obvious lost cause and the marines don't know what pressing X--->Clicking Concede does.
Yes I am a commander that will concede/recycle base when tech point two goes down and there's no hope. Sorry aliens, nobody likes losing for 20-30 minutes.
I don't agree with adding new complexity to the game rules in an attempt to control something that can't realistically be controlled.
Sure it can be controlled. That's what programming is all about. You create a set of conditions in order for an action to be carried out. Programmers are smart folks, you'd be surprised how they can program around just about anything.
If the person tries to get around a game restriction, then they are trolling, plain and simple. The simple answer is to put prohibitions in place and then the vast majority of these crybabies will leave. Those that don't can be ejected before they do too much damage.
I don't agree with adding new complexity to the game rules in an attempt to control something that can't realistically be controlled.
Sure it can be controlled. That's what programming is all about. You create a set of conditions in order for an action to be carried out. Programmers are smart folks, you'd be surprised how they can program around just about anything.
If the person tries to get around a game restriction, then they are trolling, plain and simple. The simple answer is to put prohibitions in place and then the vast majority of these crybabies will leave. Those that don't can be ejected before they do too much damage.
It can't be without negatively impacting legitimate comms in some situation or other. Maybe you know your entire expansion is boned and you want to recycle it all, but you can't because of these restrictions. Every new game system comes with a cost, and this one isn't worth it. And best case scenario if you somehow deduce a way to prevent any action by the comm that is intended as a surrender, the comm will simply get out of the chair and encourage his team to concede. It makes no difference, when the will to fight is gone the game is over.
Yes I am a commander that will concede/recycle base when tech point two goes down and there's no hope. Sorry aliens, nobody likes losing for 20-30 minutes.
First off, I have won a number of games after losing our second tech point. It really depends on the team.
Secondly, the issue you describe (a long drawn out loss) is a whole other matter entirely. I actually agree with you on this issue. There are certain points in the game that you reach and you know it is a lost cause. While concede can ease the pain in this regard, I still think it represents a problem with the game in that you reach a tipping point where the game is effectively over but one side is forced to play to a loss.
This is a whole other problem and something that would merit its own thread. In this case, recycling won't fix that problem.
I think that any attempt to program this troll tactic out of the game will likely result in more frustration for legitimate players than the very rare occurrence of a trollmander recycling both IPs.
I think that any attempt to program this troll tactic out of the game will likely result in more frustration for legitimate players than the very rare occurrence of a trollmander recycling both IPs.
I disagree, I dont see why we would allow 1 person to make a decision for the entire team and recycle.
Concede is put in place to ensure a majority want to end the game.
If your in the minority on your team and cant get a concede vote to work then you should either play it out (seeing as thats what everyone else wants to do) or leave the server.
Seriously I cant believe that people are arguing for this to be left in, considering we now have official way to end these long drawn out games (either f4 or vote concede).
You say "legitimate players"...what about us legitimate players who wanted to play out the game?
Why should a minority influence the game experience for the majority?
Sounds like some players people dont understand that not every game needs to be serious.
Some of us play for enjoyment, if thats what the majority of the server wants then thats what they should get.
Their is a reason that the concede vote is not set to say 10% of the players on a team...its to stop 1 or 2 trolls conceding the map for everyone.
Recycle still gives these people that option, get rid of recycle options.
Its only 1 team that can do it...and its most often done to end a game (prior to concede), now you see people conceding rather than recycling (atleast I do on teh aussie servers (though some people need to be told what to do).
Yes I am a commander that will concede/recycle base when tech point two goes down and there's no hope. Sorry aliens, nobody likes losing for 20-30 minutes.
First off, I have won a number of games after losing our second tech point. It really depends on the team.
Secondly, the issue you describe (a long drawn out loss) is a whole other matter entirely. I actually agree with you on this issue. There are certain points in the game that you reach and you know it is a lost cause. While concede can ease the pain in this regard, I still think it represents a problem with the game in that you reach a tipping point where the game is effectively over but one side is forced to play to a loss.
This is a whole other problem and something that would merit its own thread. In this case, recycling won't fix that problem.
I do not like having to do it either, I think it's silly that sometimes the losing phase is longer than either the first or second phases of the game. Most people are thankful for it, and you're right that it is a symptom of a greater problem.
DC_DarklingJoin Date: 2003-07-10Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver
Let us be realistic here. If the commander wants to give up, marines will.
Almost no marine ejects when a match is halfway. If a comm wants it to end he/she can stop medding, give bad evil orders, 'misclick' a few times, or a gazilion of other things.
Yes you can say it is not nice to deside for a whole team, but thats what a comm has been doing the whole match. I hardly see any troll recycle, and the rare time I see a comm recycle its such a lost cause I have not seen anyone ingame complain yet.
We could argue the comm could just jump out and just shoot instead of recyling, but stripping recycling for some trolls, while most players use it for legit reasons is just wrong on itself.
See a lot of troll recycles? Find a server which does not.
Let us be realistic here. If the commander wants to give up, marines will.
So then if base recycling is prevented there won't be a problem since the commander will be able to convince marines to concede.
Let's remember that the players don't give carte blanche to a player just because he jumps in the command chair. That's why players can EJECT the commander. The players are the one with the power, and if the commander said they were going to recycle the players could eject him for it.
The bottom line is that when there are 16 people playing on a server, no one person should be be able to abort a game without the support of his teammates. It's a TEAM game.
Recycling just seems like a basic thing that marines should just be able to do now. A lot of people are already use to it.
Also, considering that rines have the easiest time turtling inside of a base, it really should be the option of the commander to just forfeit a game if he really sees absolutely no point to winning. I've never really understood how the foot soldiers would have any idea of how the game is progressing really. I mean, sure all of the information that is available to the commander is sort of already available to everyone else - but still. The commander should be the expert on the strategy of the ongoing game. I've met some pretty amazing commanders when they're given the right people.
The marine commander has and still is one of the most important players in an NS game. Removing the recycle feature not only removes an important strategic option (which is really important for marines), but it removes some power from the rine commander. I mean, alien comms are able to shift buildings around and whatnot. You're to say that rine commanders just have to sit there and watch all of their resources get bitten away with absolutely no control over it whatsoever? The rine commander has nothing to directly effect the battlefield without the need of the presence of a marine. Recycling is that only exception.
When my team was scrimming the other day, the opposing team needed to sell their IP to afford an RT. Recycling is sometimes necessary, you can't just remove it, even if it can cause harm.
EDIT: Sometimes recycling is needed in pubs to end the pain, I feel no shame in saying that.
Let us be realistic here. If the commander wants to give up, marines will.
So then if base recycling is prevented there won't be a problem since the commander will be able to convince marines to concede.
Let's remember that the players don't give carte blanche to a player just because he jumps in the command chair. That's why players can EJECT the commander. The players are the one with the power, and if the commander said they were going to recycle the players could eject him for it.
The bottom line is that when there are 16 people playing on a server, no one person should be be able to abort a game without the support of his teammates. It's a TEAM game.
Yes he can be ejected. And then he is no commander.
A COMMANDER has full access, like a dictator we could say. and unless forcibly removed will continue his reign.
And since they also forcefully remove dictators.. Id say the resemblance is even more spot on. XD
I never recycle any more, and i only ever did it after asking my marines whether they would object. It happens that they never said they did object, but i still asked and would have carried on had they wanted to. I normally agree with you, Chris, but i can't agree with you on this. The difference between commander decisions for the team and recycling is that all of those other decisions are done with the sole aim of winning the game. Not to deliberately lose the game. Marines who have played with me when we have lost will know that i will ask them to concede if they want to (i tell them how). If they don't want to, I'll jump out and shoot with them and let them know the comm chair is empty if anyone wants to have a go.
I strongly disagree with the marine comm making a decision to lose the game which is not done with the agreement of his team.
With that said, recycling is a useful mechanic and denying the legitimate use of this to stop its misuse doesn't sit right with me. Better to educate and communicate than legislate, imho.
Even with the limits on recycling you are talking about in place, if the commander were to recycle everything else on the map your team would be done for anyway.
Recycling limits would cause more trouble than they would prevent and waste valuable development time.
I think that any attempt to program this troll tactic out of the game will likely result in more frustration for legitimate players than the very rare occurrence of a trollmander recycling both IPs.
I disagree, I dont see why we would allow 1 person to make a decision for the entire team and recycle.
Concede is put in place to ensure a majority want to end the game.
If your in the minority on your team and cant get a concede vote to work then you should either play it out (seeing as thats what everyone else wants to do) or leave the server.
Seriously I cant believe that people are arguing for this to be left in, considering we now have official way to end these long drawn out games (either f4 or vote concede).
You say "legitimate players"...what about us legitimate players who wanted to play out the game?
Why should a minority influence the game experience for the majority?
Sounds like some players people dont understand that not every game needs to be serious.
Some of us play for enjoyment, if thats what the majority of the server wants then thats what they should get.
Their is a reason that the concede vote is not set to say 10% of the players on a team...its to stop 1 or 2 trolls conceding the map for everyone.
Recycle still gives these people that option, get rid of recycle options.
Its only 1 team that can do it...and its most often done to end a game (prior to concede), now you see people conceding rather than recycling (atleast I do on teh aussie servers (though some people need to be told what to do).
You can't believe people don't support restrictions on marine recycle because you don't understand why they want it. To me, this isn't about troll commanders (very, very rare -- I've seen it happen in the single digits out of 1000+ hours played). Vote concede and surrender are irrelevant because this also is not about commanders single handedly ending the game. This is because there are, albeit very rare, circumstances where a commander would legitimately want to recycle something where these restrictions would inevitably get in the way.
The benefit from this is so tiny that it will likely be overshadowed by the annoyance of the feature. I'm not convinced UWE needs to put time into this, nor that it would actually be net beneficial.
I think that any attempt to program this troll tactic out of the game will likely result in more frustration for legitimate players than the very rare occurrence of a trollmander recycling both IPs.
I disagree, I dont see why we would allow 1 person to make a decision for the entire team and recycle.
Concede is put in place to ensure a majority want to end the game.
If your in the minority on your team and cant get a concede vote to work then you should either play it out (seeing as thats what everyone else wants to do) or leave the server.
Seriously I cant believe that people are arguing for this to be left in, considering we now have official way to end these long drawn out games (either f4 or vote concede).
You say "legitimate players"...what about us legitimate players who wanted to play out the game?
Why should a minority influence the game experience for the majority?
Sounds like some players people dont understand that not every game needs to be serious.
Some of us play for enjoyment, if thats what the majority of the server wants then thats what they should get.
Their is a reason that the concede vote is not set to say 10% of the players on a team...its to stop 1 or 2 trolls conceding the map for everyone.
Recycle still gives these people that option, get rid of recycle options.
Its only 1 team that can do it...and its most often done to end a game (prior to concede), now you see people conceding rather than recycling (atleast I do on teh aussie servers (though some people need to be told what to do).
You can't believe people don't support restrictions on marine recycle because you don't understand why they want it. To me, this isn't about troll commanders (very, very rare -- I've seen it happen in the single digits out of 1000+ hours played). Vote concede and surrender are irrelevant because this also is not about commanders single handedly ending the game. This is because there are, albeit very rare, circumstances where a commander would legitimately want to recycle something where these restrictions would inevitably get in the way.
The benefit from this is so tiny that it will likely be overshadowed by the annoyance of the feature. I'm not convinced UWE needs to put time into this, nor that it would actually be net beneficial.
Yay...so you want 1 person to be able to end a game...why the heck did UWE not them add teh concede button only to the comm view?
Oh wait...because they believe to concede is not a decision for 1 player, but rather the majority.
I cant believe I actually am in agreement with Savant...that I think indicates that this is more than just whether the marines can concede a game but whether 1 person should be able to end a game without his teams agreement.
Troll or 1337 player who believes the game is over...is the majority of the team does not exist then a recycle should not be able to happen.
Whether this is things not being able to be recycled if in same room as a comm chair or just removing the recycle option all together something has to change.
I am sick of having 1 person decide for everyone else that a game is over, this is a bad mechanic as it ONLY APPLIES TO MARINES.
Aliens can just as easily need to recycle a chamber to drop an RT..but cant. I dont see why marines should get this luxury if aliens dont.
We have F4 and Concede that are for both side to end game that are over...recycling a base is no longer needed and serves only to troll.
A comm doesn't feel like his marines are listening...simply recycles and ends the game...seen it happen and also heard the marines rage in teh RR.
I think that any attempt to program this troll tactic out of the game will likely result in more frustration for legitimate players than the very rare occurrence of a trollmander recycling both IPs.
I disagree, I dont see why we would allow 1 person to make a decision for the entire team and recycle.
Concede is put in place to ensure a majority want to end the game.
If your in the minority on your team and cant get a concede vote to work then you should either play it out (seeing as thats what everyone else wants to do) or leave the server.
Seriously I cant believe that people are arguing for this to be left in, considering we now have official way to end these long drawn out games (either f4 or vote concede).
You say "legitimate players"...what about us legitimate players who wanted to play out the game?
Why should a minority influence the game experience for the majority?
Sounds like some players people dont understand that not every game needs to be serious.
Some of us play for enjoyment, if thats what the majority of the server wants then thats what they should get.
Their is a reason that the concede vote is not set to say 10% of the players on a team...its to stop 1 or 2 trolls conceding the map for everyone.
Recycle still gives these people that option, get rid of recycle options.
Its only 1 team that can do it...and its most often done to end a game (prior to concede), now you see people conceding rather than recycling (atleast I do on teh aussie servers (though some people need to be told what to do).
You can't believe people don't support restrictions on marine recycle because you don't understand why they want it. To me, this isn't about troll commanders (very, very rare -- I've seen it happen in the single digits out of 1000+ hours played). Vote concede and surrender are irrelevant because this also is not about commanders single handedly ending the game. This is because there are, albeit very rare, circumstances where a commander would legitimately want to recycle something where these restrictions would inevitably get in the way.
The benefit from this is so tiny that it will likely be overshadowed by the annoyance of the feature. I'm not convinced UWE needs to put time into this, nor that it would actually be net beneficial.
Yay...so you want 1 person to be able to end a game...why the heck did UWE not them add teh concede button only to the comm view?
Oh wait...because they believe to concede is not a decision for 1 player, but rather the majority.
I cant believe I actually am in agreement with Savant...that I think indicates that this is more than just whether the marines can concede a game but whether 1 person should be able to end a game without his teams agreement.
Troll or 1337 player who believes the game is over...is the majority of the team does not exist then a recycle should not be able to happen.
Whether this is things not being able to be recycled if in same room as a comm chair or just removing the recycle option all together something has to change.
I am sick of having 1 person decide for everyone else that a game is over, this is a bad mechanic as it ONLY APPLIES TO MARINES.
Aliens can just as easily need to recycle a chamber to drop an RT..but cant. I dont see why marines should get this luxury if aliens dont.
We have F4 and Concede that are for both side to end game that are over...recycling a base is no longer needed and serves only to troll.
A comm doesn't feel like his marines are listening...simply recycles and ends the game...seen it happen and also heard the marines rage in teh RR.
There's really no reason to twist GORGEous' words around in the vain attempt at a valid rebuttal. There is no way for the recycle ability to be restricted enough to stop the commander from ending the game that won't affect recycle as a gameplay mechanic. Even if you were to stop the commander from recycling 2 IPs, 1 Resource Tower, the Armory and the Arms Lab he would still be able to recycle enough to take the Marine team out of the game for good. The only real solution to the problem is either to completely remove recycle from the game or give server admins the ability to disable on their server which would cripple and cause a loss for the Marine team in more cases than the commander recycling all your shit to "troll" you. Most commanders that recycle anyway do it because the game is over and idiots want to play grab ass in Marine Start with Grenade Launchers.
The fact that agree with Savant should clue you in to how wrong you actually are.
Comments
It is not difficult to see when the game will either end soon, or end up like that. In that instance it is perfectly rational and extremely sensible to recycle. If you cannot lead your team to victory, you can at least spare them the tedium of defeat.
As I keep saying, the point of the commander is to make the game work smoothly. Conceding is a part of that. The commander kind of is an admin in a lot of ways, or at least he's a lot like a GM in a tabletop game. He makes all the technical stuff in the background work. He orchestrates the function of the game, arranges it so that players get to fight each other and he makes the buildings appear when you want to build things and makes the support powers trigger when you need them. The ENTIRE POINT of the commander is to know what is best for you without you saying or possibly even thinking so. That's why the commander has things like beacon and the ability to give out guns/lifeforms and the ability to control expansion direction.
Having the ability to skip the mop up phase and prevent its slight tendency to turn into a server killing nightmare is a perfectly rational extension of that. That the more idiotic breed of player may decide to turn it into his own personal table flipper is not a flaw in the mechanic, any more than the commander mechanic in general is flawed due to players being able to command incredibly badly in general.
Bad players != bad mechanics.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I am only disputing the commander ending the game for people that do not want it to end. If the commander said "I want to recycle and end this lost cause" and no one objects; knock your self out.
If people want to play out the end game; let them. I do not think it is the commanders right to ruin the game for 5-11 other people on his team if they want to play it out.
It is akin to the kid taking his ball and leaving the park because his team is losing the game. It is petulant and selfish. There are three other mechanisms in place for the commander to express his desire to end the game: Vote to concede, F4, Disconnect. There is no need to force your decision on people who just want to play the game to it's logical conclusion, even if you believe or know it is hopeless.
-edit-
Furthermore, I have never seen a GM decide that his players had no hope and force them to stop playing. The GM, as much as the commander, also carries a certain responsibility to the players. Bad GMs who force their players into things they don't want or don't want to do don't have players for long. The same can be said of Commanders.
If the alien team just took out your second tech point as marine, and you have no reasonable options of retaking ground, the only correct option is to recycle IPs and let the game end gracefully.
My point is, a lot of people just don't communicate, don't vote, don't do anything if you recycle, but will continue to blindly play on if you let them.
My only conclusion is that it just doesn't matter to these people if it goes one way or the other, or perhaps they are too dumb to realise anything that is happening to them, maybe they're elaborate bots or something I dunno.
In any case, the logical thing to do is recycle, start the game again, reduce the probability of actual active players getting annoyed and ragequitting (because they can't win a vote if a sizeable chunk of the server are just unresponsive) and the game devolving into an utter mess where all the people with an apparent conscious understanding of the game have dropped off, and then everyone else follows because suddenly nobody can operate the commander properly.
Basically, the game has a sizeable population (in public play at least) of completely replaceable, non-communicative, non-interacting, non-commital players, who literally have to have every decision made for them because they do not respond in any consistent or rational way to choices presented to them. They move, they shoot, they sometimes move and shoot quite well, but they're like sufficiently advanced bots in terms of actually getting the game to work. They just don't function without you basically railroading them.
They're presumably the same people who would build a team entirely of single minigun exos if their res permitted it, or who will mechanically save up for a fade and then die with it really fast, then keep blindly skulk charging until they hit 50 res again. I don't get why people play the game like that but they honest to god don't seem to be able to function without a competent command staff, and sometimes for that to remain on the server, you need to make decisions for the minority over the majority, because the minority are the only ones with any clue what's happening, they actually are more valuable.
Yes there are times it's the logical option to concede, but if a majority don't want too, you shouldn't force them too.
We have concede vote. The team needs to decide. And fix the game to make sure it is enforced.
As for the recycle, I think if the item in question is withing XX distance of a FUNCTIONING comm chair, it cannot be recycled.
Why? Because you can't kill the power in your own base as a marine, and most of your important buildings are placed within XX distance of a command chair... thus you prevent griefing by recycle.
/Done in one
Not even close. The commander is none of those things. The commander is just ONE player in a game who happens to have a different role. That role does NOT include acting like a spoiled child when they are losing and recycling the base.
People need to grow up. Seriously. If you can't stand where the game is going. If you can't handle the fact the other 15 people want to keep playing, then the disconnect button is only a couple clicks away. Use it.
If people want the game to end select concede, having 1 person being able to jump in and sell everything is a bad mechanic that can hurt game play.
I still dont understand why marines get to recycle building but aliens dont (considering now both teams have T and P res pools), this was a logical inclusion for NS1 as marines only had 1 pools of income (T-res).
Now I see it as adding imbalance to the ecnomies, aliens already have cysts to waste money on.
upgrades that when killed require re-building and re-researching too and a total inability to save a res tower under attack.
Marines dont have to spend money on anything besides upgrades, extractors etc...they dont have to pay for the power nodes and as such all their res gets sunk into physical upgrades.
I would suggest that recycling is now no longer needed for the marine team, after all even removing building recycling marines can still pick up dropped weapons.
An alien team cant sell one of its upgrades to drop an extractor when res locked....so why should marines be able to?
Remove the base recycling options, its no longer needed now we have concede.
If you cant get half your team to concede then recycling is a griefing act as the majority wants to play it out.
It's pointless to recycle an operational RT for example too, in the time it takes a solo skulk to kill it, it will generate 5 res, and 5 pres. Per person. Not worth cycling. Recycling a base you're getting faceraped in? Yeah, makes sense. I like recycling.
I also like recycling when it's an obvious lost cause and the marines don't know what pressing X--->Clicking Concede does.
Yes I am a commander that will concede/recycle base when tech point two goes down and there's no hope. Sorry aliens, nobody likes losing for 20-30 minutes.
If the person tries to get around a game restriction, then they are trolling, plain and simple. The simple answer is to put prohibitions in place and then the vast majority of these crybabies will leave. Those that don't can be ejected before they do too much damage.
It can't be without negatively impacting legitimate comms in some situation or other. Maybe you know your entire expansion is boned and you want to recycle it all, but you can't because of these restrictions. Every new game system comes with a cost, and this one isn't worth it. And best case scenario if you somehow deduce a way to prevent any action by the comm that is intended as a surrender, the comm will simply get out of the chair and encourage his team to concede. It makes no difference, when the will to fight is gone the game is over.
Secondly, the issue you describe (a long drawn out loss) is a whole other matter entirely. I actually agree with you on this issue. There are certain points in the game that you reach and you know it is a lost cause. While concede can ease the pain in this regard, I still think it represents a problem with the game in that you reach a tipping point where the game is effectively over but one side is forced to play to a loss.
This is a whole other problem and something that would merit its own thread. In this case, recycling won't fix that problem.
Concede is put in place to ensure a majority want to end the game.
If your in the minority on your team and cant get a concede vote to work then you should either play it out (seeing as thats what everyone else wants to do) or leave the server.
Seriously I cant believe that people are arguing for this to be left in, considering we now have official way to end these long drawn out games (either f4 or vote concede).
You say "legitimate players"...what about us legitimate players who wanted to play out the game?
Why should a minority influence the game experience for the majority?
Sounds like some players people dont understand that not every game needs to be serious.
Some of us play for enjoyment, if thats what the majority of the server wants then thats what they should get.
Their is a reason that the concede vote is not set to say 10% of the players on a team...its to stop 1 or 2 trolls conceding the map for everyone.
Recycle still gives these people that option, get rid of recycle options.
Its only 1 team that can do it...and its most often done to end a game (prior to concede), now you see people conceding rather than recycling (atleast I do on teh aussie servers (though some people need to be told what to do).
I do not like having to do it either, I think it's silly that sometimes the losing phase is longer than either the first or second phases of the game. Most people are thankful for it, and you're right that it is a symptom of a greater problem.
Almost no marine ejects when a match is halfway. If a comm wants it to end he/she can stop medding, give bad evil orders, 'misclick' a few times, or a gazilion of other things.
Yes you can say it is not nice to deside for a whole team, but thats what a comm has been doing the whole match. I hardly see any troll recycle, and the rare time I see a comm recycle its such a lost cause I have not seen anyone ingame complain yet.
We could argue the comm could just jump out and just shoot instead of recyling, but stripping recycling for some trolls, while most players use it for legit reasons is just wrong on itself.
See a lot of troll recycles? Find a server which does not.
Let's remember that the players don't give carte blanche to a player just because he jumps in the command chair. That's why players can EJECT the commander. The players are the one with the power, and if the commander said they were going to recycle the players could eject him for it.
The bottom line is that when there are 16 people playing on a server, no one person should be be able to abort a game without the support of his teammates. It's a TEAM game.
Also, considering that rines have the easiest time turtling inside of a base, it really should be the option of the commander to just forfeit a game if he really sees absolutely no point to winning. I've never really understood how the foot soldiers would have any idea of how the game is progressing really. I mean, sure all of the information that is available to the commander is sort of already available to everyone else - but still. The commander should be the expert on the strategy of the ongoing game. I've met some pretty amazing commanders when they're given the right people.
The marine commander has and still is one of the most important players in an NS game. Removing the recycle feature not only removes an important strategic option (which is really important for marines), but it removes some power from the rine commander. I mean, alien comms are able to shift buildings around and whatnot. You're to say that rine commanders just have to sit there and watch all of their resources get bitten away with absolutely no control over it whatsoever? The rine commander has nothing to directly effect the battlefield without the need of the presence of a marine. Recycling is that only exception.
EDIT: Sometimes recycling is needed in pubs to end the pain, I feel no shame in saying that.
Yes he can be ejected. And then he is no commander.
A COMMANDER has full access, like a dictator we could say. and unless forcibly removed will continue his reign.
And since they also forcefully remove dictators.. Id say the resemblance is even more spot on. XD
I strongly disagree with the marine comm making a decision to lose the game which is not done with the agreement of his team.
With that said, recycling is a useful mechanic and denying the legitimate use of this to stop its misuse doesn't sit right with me. Better to educate and communicate than legislate, imho.
Roo
Recycling limits would cause more trouble than they would prevent and waste valuable development time.
You can't believe people don't support restrictions on marine recycle because you don't understand why they want it. To me, this isn't about troll commanders (very, very rare -- I've seen it happen in the single digits out of 1000+ hours played). Vote concede and surrender are irrelevant because this also is not about commanders single handedly ending the game. This is because there are, albeit very rare, circumstances where a commander would legitimately want to recycle something where these restrictions would inevitably get in the way.
The benefit from this is so tiny that it will likely be overshadowed by the annoyance of the feature. I'm not convinced UWE needs to put time into this, nor that it would actually be net beneficial.
Yay...so you want 1 person to be able to end a game...why the heck did UWE not them add teh concede button only to the comm view?
Oh wait...because they believe to concede is not a decision for 1 player, but rather the majority.
I cant believe I actually am in agreement with Savant...that I think indicates that this is more than just whether the marines can concede a game but whether 1 person should be able to end a game without his teams agreement.
Troll or 1337 player who believes the game is over...is the majority of the team does not exist then a recycle should not be able to happen.
Whether this is things not being able to be recycled if in same room as a comm chair or just removing the recycle option all together something has to change.
I am sick of having 1 person decide for everyone else that a game is over, this is a bad mechanic as it ONLY APPLIES TO MARINES.
Aliens can just as easily need to recycle a chamber to drop an RT..but cant. I dont see why marines should get this luxury if aliens dont.
We have F4 and Concede that are for both side to end game that are over...recycling a base is no longer needed and serves only to troll.
A comm doesn't feel like his marines are listening...simply recycles and ends the game...seen it happen and also heard the marines rage in teh RR.
There's really no reason to twist GORGEous' words around in the vain attempt at a valid rebuttal. There is no way for the recycle ability to be restricted enough to stop the commander from ending the game that won't affect recycle as a gameplay mechanic. Even if you were to stop the commander from recycling 2 IPs, 1 Resource Tower, the Armory and the Arms Lab he would still be able to recycle enough to take the Marine team out of the game for good. The only real solution to the problem is either to completely remove recycle from the game or give server admins the ability to disable on their server which would cripple and cause a loss for the Marine team in more cases than the commander recycling all your shit to "troll" you. Most commanders that recycle anyway do it because the game is over and idiots want to play grab ass in Marine Start with Grenade Launchers.
The fact that agree with Savant should clue you in to how wrong you actually are.