I think that any attempt to program this troll tactic out of the game will likely result in more frustration for legitimate players than the very rare occurrence of a trollmander recycling both IPs.
I disagree, I dont see why we would allow 1 person to make a decision for the entire team and recycle.
This is NS...
Letting one person make decisions for an entire team is basically the core game mechanic.
I think that any attempt to program this troll tactic out of the game will likely result in more frustration for legitimate players than the very rare occurrence of a trollmander recycling both IPs.
I disagree, I dont see why we would allow 1 person to make a decision for the entire team and recycle.
Concede is put in place to ensure a majority want to end the game.
If your in the minority on your team and cant get a concede vote to work then you should either play it out (seeing as thats what everyone else wants to do) or leave the server.
Seriously I cant believe that people are arguing for this to be left in, considering we now have official way to end these long drawn out games (either f4 or vote concede).
You say "legitimate players"...what about us legitimate players who wanted to play out the game?
Why should a minority influence the game experience for the majority?
Sounds like some players people dont understand that not every game needs to be serious.
Some of us play for enjoyment, if thats what the majority of the server wants then thats what they should get.
Their is a reason that the concede vote is not set to say 10% of the players on a team...its to stop 1 or 2 trolls conceding the map for everyone.
Recycle still gives these people that option, get rid of recycle options.
Its only 1 team that can do it...and its most often done to end a game (prior to concede), now you see people conceding rather than recycling (atleast I do on teh aussie servers (though some people need to be told what to do).
You can't believe people don't support restrictions on marine recycle because you don't understand why they want it. To me, this isn't about troll commanders (very, very rare -- I've seen it happen in the single digits out of 1000+ hours played). Vote concede and surrender are irrelevant because this also is not about commanders single handedly ending the game. This is because there are, albeit very rare, circumstances where a commander would legitimately want to recycle something where these restrictions would inevitably get in the way.
The benefit from this is so tiny that it will likely be overshadowed by the annoyance of the feature. I'm not convinced UWE needs to put time into this, nor that it would actually be net beneficial.
Yay...so you want 1 person to be able to end a game...why the heck did UWE not them add teh concede button only to the comm view?
Oh wait...because they believe to concede is not a decision for 1 player, but rather the majority.
I cant believe I actually am in agreement with Savant...that I think indicates that this is more than just whether the marines can concede a game but whether 1 person should be able to end a game without his teams agreement.
Troll or 1337 player who believes the game is over...is the majority of the team does not exist then a recycle should not be able to happen.
Whether this is things not being able to be recycled if in same room as a comm chair or just removing the recycle option all together something has to change.
I am sick of having 1 person decide for everyone else that a game is over, this is a bad mechanic as it ONLY APPLIES TO MARINES.
Aliens can just as easily need to recycle a chamber to drop an RT..but cant. I dont see why marines should get this luxury if aliens dont.
We have F4 and Concede that are for both side to end game that are over...recycling a base is no longer needed and serves only to troll.
A comm doesn't feel like his marines are listening...simply recycles and ends the game...seen it happen and also heard the marines rage in teh RR.
There's really no reason to twist GORGEous' words around in the vain attempt at a valid rebuttal. There is no way for the recycle ability to be restricted enough to stop the commander from ending the game that won't affect recycle as a gameplay mechanic. Even if you were to stop the commander from recycling 2 IPs, 1 Resource Tower, the Armory and the Arms Lab he would still be able to recycle enough to take the Marine team out of the game for good. The only real solution to the problem is either to completely remove recycle from the game or give server admins the ability to disable on their server which would cripple and cause a loss for the Marine team in more cases than the commander recycling all your shit to "troll" you. Most commanders that recycle anyway do it because the game is over and idiots want to play grab ass in Marine Start with Grenade Launchers.
The fact that agree with Savant should clue you in to how wrong you actually are.
Sorry I did not twist Gorgeuos' words, he is saying that 1 person (ie the marine comm) should be able to decide a game is over.
The alien khamm cant do this, and neither does the concede feature allow 1 person to arbutrarily decide to forfeit a game.
This is not chess, you cant simply concede without the rest of your team agreeing.
So why do we allow for things to exploited via recycling?
Simply ejecting the comm once this happes is not enough, as they will most likely spam med packs etc to ensure that no one else can hop in and re-build things.
This is a case of little kids having a sook and recycling, if you cant convince your team to concede (or atleast half of the team) then Play the game out.
There is a mechanic in the game to allow for a team to concede so its no longer able to be argued "This is how we stop games from needlessly dragging on".
Guess what we have a way to do this...it requires the majority of a team for it to pass.
Whilst I may not often agree with Savant I often dont agree with Ironhorse either...doesn't mean jack.
UWE put in the concede vote that requires over 50% and also fixed the eject comm only needing 2 votes.
Both of these changes show clearly that the opinion of hte wider team is more important than 1 person...regardless of how clever/experience/superior they may think they are.
1 Person making decisions without caveats is not at all what NS is about, otherwise why is there the "Eject Commander button"?
If your comm wont med pack (and rest of team wants to play on) then eject your commander, we should not allow 1 persons opinion to control the gaming experience for 11-23 other people (as it impacts both sides).
I think that any attempt to program this troll tactic out of the game will likely result in more frustration for legitimate players than the very rare occurrence of a trollmander recycling both IPs.
I disagree, I dont see why we would allow 1 person to make a decision for the entire team and recycle.
Concede is put in place to ensure a majority want to end the game.
If your in the minority on your team and cant get a concede vote to work then you should either play it out (seeing as thats what everyone else wants to do) or leave the server.
Seriously I cant believe that people are arguing for this to be left in, considering we now have official way to end these long drawn out games (either f4 or vote concede).
You say "legitimate players"...what about us legitimate players who wanted to play out the game?
Why should a minority influence the game experience for the majority?
Sounds like some players people dont understand that not every game needs to be serious.
Some of us play for enjoyment, if thats what the majority of the server wants then thats what they should get.
Their is a reason that the concede vote is not set to say 10% of the players on a team...its to stop 1 or 2 trolls conceding the map for everyone.
Recycle still gives these people that option, get rid of recycle options.
Its only 1 team that can do it...and its most often done to end a game (prior to concede), now you see people conceding rather than recycling (atleast I do on teh aussie servers (though some people need to be told what to do).
You can't believe people don't support restrictions on marine recycle because you don't understand why they want it. To me, this isn't about troll commanders (very, very rare -- I've seen it happen in the single digits out of 1000+ hours played). Vote concede and surrender are irrelevant because this also is not about commanders single handedly ending the game. This is because there are, albeit very rare, circumstances where a commander would legitimately want to recycle something where these restrictions would inevitably get in the way.
The benefit from this is so tiny that it will likely be overshadowed by the annoyance of the feature. I'm not convinced UWE needs to put time into this, nor that it would actually be net beneficial.
Yay...so you want 1 person to be able to end a game...why the heck did UWE not them add teh concede button only to the comm view?
Oh wait...because they believe to concede is not a decision for 1 player, but rather the majority.
I cant believe I actually am in agreement with Savant...that I think indicates that this is more than just whether the marines can concede a game but whether 1 person should be able to end a game without his teams agreement.
Troll or 1337 player who believes the game is over...is the majority of the team does not exist then a recycle should not be able to happen.
Whether this is things not being able to be recycled if in same room as a comm chair or just removing the recycle option all together something has to change.
I am sick of having 1 person decide for everyone else that a game is over, this is a bad mechanic as it ONLY APPLIES TO MARINES.
Aliens can just as easily need to recycle a chamber to drop an RT..but cant. I dont see why marines should get this luxury if aliens dont.
We have F4 and Concede that are for both side to end game that are over...recycling a base is no longer needed and serves only to troll.
A comm doesn't feel like his marines are listening...simply recycles and ends the game...seen it happen and also heard the marines rage in teh RR.
There's really no reason to twist GORGEous' words around in the vain attempt at a valid rebuttal. There is no way for the recycle ability to be restricted enough to stop the commander from ending the game that won't affect recycle as a gameplay mechanic. Even if you were to stop the commander from recycling 2 IPs, 1 Resource Tower, the Armory and the Arms Lab he would still be able to recycle enough to take the Marine team out of the game for good. The only real solution to the problem is either to completely remove recycle from the game or give server admins the ability to disable on their server which would cripple and cause a loss for the Marine team in more cases than the commander recycling all your shit to "troll" you. Most commanders that recycle anyway do it because the game is over and idiots want to play grab ass in Marine Start with Grenade Launchers.
The fact that agree with Savant should clue you in to how wrong you actually are.
Sorry I did not twist Gorgeuos' words, he is saying that 1 person (ie the marine comm) should be able to decide a game is over.
I think that any attempt to program this troll tactic out of the game will likely result in more frustration for legitimate players than the very rare occurrence of a trollmander recycling both IPs.
I disagree, I dont see why we would allow 1 person to make a decision for the entire team and recycle.
Concede is put in place to ensure a majority want to end the game.
If your in the minority on your team and cant get a concede vote to work then you should either play it out (seeing as thats what everyone else wants to do) or leave the server.
Seriously I cant believe that people are arguing for this to be left in, considering we now have official way to end these long drawn out games (either f4 or vote concede).
You say "legitimate players"...what about us legitimate players who wanted to play out the game?
Why should a minority influence the game experience for the majority?
Sounds like some players people dont understand that not every game needs to be serious.
Some of us play for enjoyment, if thats what the majority of the server wants then thats what they should get.
Their is a reason that the concede vote is not set to say 10% of the players on a team...its to stop 1 or 2 trolls conceding the map for everyone.
Recycle still gives these people that option, get rid of recycle options.
Its only 1 team that can do it...and its most often done to end a game (prior to concede), now you see people conceding rather than recycling (atleast I do on teh aussie servers (though some people need to be told what to do).
You can't believe people don't support restrictions on marine recycle because you don't understand why they want it. To me, this isn't about troll commanders (very, very rare -- I've seen it happen in the single digits out of 1000+ hours played). Vote concede and surrender are irrelevant because this also is not about commanders single handedly ending the game. This is because there are, albeit very rare, circumstances where a commander would legitimately want to recycle something where these restrictions would inevitably get in the way.
The benefit from this is so tiny that it will likely be overshadowed by the annoyance of the feature. I'm not convinced UWE needs to put time into this, nor that it would actually be net beneficial.
Yay...so you want 1 person to be able to end a game...why the heck did UWE not them add teh concede button only to the comm view?
Oh wait...because they believe to concede is not a decision for 1 player, but rather the majority.
I cant believe I actually am in agreement with Savant...that I think indicates that this is more than just whether the marines can concede a game but whether 1 person should be able to end a game without his teams agreement.
Troll or 1337 player who believes the game is over...is the majority of the team does not exist then a recycle should not be able to happen.
Whether this is things not being able to be recycled if in same room as a comm chair or just removing the recycle option all together something has to change.
I am sick of having 1 person decide for everyone else that a game is over, this is a bad mechanic as it ONLY APPLIES TO MARINES.
Aliens can just as easily need to recycle a chamber to drop an RT..but cant. I dont see why marines should get this luxury if aliens dont.
We have F4 and Concede that are for both side to end game that are over...recycling a base is no longer needed and serves only to troll.
A comm doesn't feel like his marines are listening...simply recycles and ends the game...seen it happen and also heard the marines rage in teh RR.
There's really no reason to twist GORGEous' words around in the vain attempt at a valid rebuttal. There is no way for the recycle ability to be restricted enough to stop the commander from ending the game that won't affect recycle as a gameplay mechanic. Even if you were to stop the commander from recycling 2 IPs, 1 Resource Tower, the Armory and the Arms Lab he would still be able to recycle enough to take the Marine team out of the game for good. The only real solution to the problem is either to completely remove recycle from the game or give server admins the ability to disable on their server which would cripple and cause a loss for the Marine team in more cases than the commander recycling all your shit to "troll" you. Most commanders that recycle anyway do it because the game is over and idiots want to play grab ass in Marine Start with Grenade Launchers.
The fact that agree with Savant should clue you in to how wrong you actually are.
Sorry I did not twist Gorgeuos' words, he is saying that 1 person (ie the marine comm) should be able to decide a game is over.
L
O
L
Glad you find it amusing.
As many people say, this is not NS1.
We have T and P res on both sides so recylcing simply allows the marines to do something that the other side cant.
That coupled with the ability for 1 person to decide a game is over when the rest of the server still wants to play.
You dont like the attitude of the players who want to fight it out and find yourself in the minority (ie cant get a conccede vote up) then leave the server and go find people who have the same idea of game play as yourself.
Dont force your opinion onto the rest of your team and server.
I think that any attempt to program this troll tactic out of the game will likely result in more frustration for legitimate players than the very rare occurrence of a trollmander recycling both IPs.
I disagree, I dont see why we would allow 1 person to make a decision for the entire team and recycle.
Concede is put in place to ensure a majority want to end the game.
If your in the minority on your team and cant get a concede vote to work then you should either play it out (seeing as thats what everyone else wants to do) or leave the server.
Seriously I cant believe that people are arguing for this to be left in, considering we now have official way to end these long drawn out games (either f4 or vote concede).
You say "legitimate players"...what about us legitimate players who wanted to play out the game?
Why should a minority influence the game experience for the majority?
Sounds like some players people dont understand that not every game needs to be serious.
Some of us play for enjoyment, if thats what the majority of the server wants then thats what they should get.
Their is a reason that the concede vote is not set to say 10% of the players on a team...its to stop 1 or 2 trolls conceding the map for everyone.
Recycle still gives these people that option, get rid of recycle options.
Its only 1 team that can do it...and its most often done to end a game (prior to concede), now you see people conceding rather than recycling (atleast I do on teh aussie servers (though some people need to be told what to do).
You can't believe people don't support restrictions on marine recycle because you don't understand why they want it. To me, this isn't about troll commanders (very, very rare -- I've seen it happen in the single digits out of 1000+ hours played). Vote concede and surrender are irrelevant because this also is not about commanders single handedly ending the game. This is because there are, albeit very rare, circumstances where a commander would legitimately want to recycle something where these restrictions would inevitably get in the way.
The benefit from this is so tiny that it will likely be overshadowed by the annoyance of the feature. I'm not convinced UWE needs to put time into this, nor that it would actually be net beneficial.
Yay...so you want 1 person to be able to end a game...why the heck did UWE not them add teh concede button only to the comm view?
Oh wait...because they believe to concede is not a decision for 1 player, but rather the majority.
I cant believe I actually am in agreement with Savant...that I think indicates that this is more than just whether the marines can concede a game but whether 1 person should be able to end a game without his teams agreement.
Troll or 1337 player who believes the game is over...is the majority of the team does not exist then a recycle should not be able to happen.
Whether this is things not being able to be recycled if in same room as a comm chair or just removing the recycle option all together something has to change.
I am sick of having 1 person decide for everyone else that a game is over, this is a bad mechanic as it ONLY APPLIES TO MARINES.
Aliens can just as easily need to recycle a chamber to drop an RT..but cant. I dont see why marines should get this luxury if aliens dont.
We have F4 and Concede that are for both side to end game that are over...recycling a base is no longer needed and serves only to troll.
A comm doesn't feel like his marines are listening...simply recycles and ends the game...seen it happen and also heard the marines rage in teh RR.
There's really no reason to twist GORGEous' words around in the vain attempt at a valid rebuttal. There is no way for the recycle ability to be restricted enough to stop the commander from ending the game that won't affect recycle as a gameplay mechanic. Even if you were to stop the commander from recycling 2 IPs, 1 Resource Tower, the Armory and the Arms Lab he would still be able to recycle enough to take the Marine team out of the game for good. The only real solution to the problem is either to completely remove recycle from the game or give server admins the ability to disable on their server which would cripple and cause a loss for the Marine team in more cases than the commander recycling all your shit to "troll" you. Most commanders that recycle anyway do it because the game is over and idiots want to play grab ass in Marine Start with Grenade Launchers.
The fact that agree with Savant should clue you in to how wrong you actually are.
Sorry I did not twist Gorgeuos' words, he is saying that 1 person (ie the marine comm) should be able to decide a game is over.
L
O
L
Glad you find it amusing.
As many people say, this is not NS1.
We have T and P res on both sides so recylcing simply allows the marines to do something that the other side cant.
That coupled with the ability for 1 person to decide a game is over when the rest of the server still wants to play.
You dont like the attitude of the players who want to fight it out and find yourself in the minority (ie cant get a conccede vote up) then leave the server and go find people who have the same idea of game play as yourself.
Dont force your opinion onto the rest of your team and server.
But yet, you want to force your opinion on the team and server. Take some of your own damn advice.
The marine comm is the core of the team. Period. He is responsible from everything outside of taking territory. He deserves the right to end the game when derpy marines don't listen to given orders.
Why would you even want to drag on a game that is obviously lost? You must be one of those derpy marines that never listens to orders and just constantly rushes off to your death on your own whims of what you think is right, but is actually completely wrong.
Res has nothing to do with it. Idiots are idiots, regardless of how much res they have or don't have. Marines REQUIRE teamwork. Your PRES has no bearing on how well you listen to your comm. Aliens can skate passed this simply because they don't need as much teamwork until it comes to big pushes, or ninja pushes.
Either way, your ideal of fighting until the bitter end does nothing but waste everyone's time. You may find it fun, but it isn't, at all. The "majority" would prefer a well fought game, with all of it's ups and downs, and not just another damn turtle fest because some random decided "HEY, LET'S NOT END THIS CRAP EVEN THOUGH MY TEAM IS BEING DOMINATED AT EVERY TURN AND HASN'T SCORED A SINGLE KILL YET."
It's funny to see you try so hard when you are so very, very wrong. You, clearly, know nothing of actual team based gaming. Must be a halo kid.
I think that any attempt to program this troll tactic out of the game will likely result in more frustration for legitimate players than the very rare occurrence of a trollmander recycling both IPs.
I disagree, I dont see why we would allow 1 person to make a decision for the entire team and recycle.
Concede is put in place to ensure a majority want to end the game.
If your in the minority on your team and cant get a concede vote to work then you should either play it out (seeing as thats what everyone else wants to do) or leave the server.
Seriously I cant believe that people are arguing for this to be left in, considering we now have official way to end these long drawn out games (either f4 or vote concede).
You say "legitimate players"...what about us legitimate players who wanted to play out the game?
Why should a minority influence the game experience for the majority?
Sounds like some players people dont understand that not every game needs to be serious.
Some of us play for enjoyment, if thats what the majority of the server wants then thats what they should get.
Their is a reason that the concede vote is not set to say 10% of the players on a team...its to stop 1 or 2 trolls conceding the map for everyone.
Recycle still gives these people that option, get rid of recycle options.
Its only 1 team that can do it...and its most often done to end a game (prior to concede), now you see people conceding rather than recycling (atleast I do on teh aussie servers (though some people need to be told what to do).
You can't believe people don't support restrictions on marine recycle because you don't understand why they want it. To me, this isn't about troll commanders (very, very rare -- I've seen it happen in the single digits out of 1000+ hours played). Vote concede and surrender are irrelevant because this also is not about commanders single handedly ending the game. This is because there are, albeit very rare, circumstances where a commander would legitimately want to recycle something where these restrictions would inevitably get in the way.
The benefit from this is so tiny that it will likely be overshadowed by the annoyance of the feature. I'm not convinced UWE needs to put time into this, nor that it would actually be net beneficial.
Yay...so you want 1 person to be able to end a game...why the heck did UWE not them add teh concede button only to the comm view?
Oh wait...because they believe to concede is not a decision for 1 player, but rather the majority.
I cant believe I actually am in agreement with Savant...that I think indicates that this is more than just whether the marines can concede a game but whether 1 person should be able to end a game without his teams agreement.
Troll or 1337 player who believes the game is over...is the majority of the team does not exist then a recycle should not be able to happen.
Whether this is things not being able to be recycled if in same room as a comm chair or just removing the recycle option all together something has to change.
I am sick of having 1 person decide for everyone else that a game is over, this is a bad mechanic as it ONLY APPLIES TO MARINES.
Aliens can just as easily need to recycle a chamber to drop an RT..but cant. I dont see why marines should get this luxury if aliens dont.
We have F4 and Concede that are for both side to end game that are over...recycling a base is no longer needed and serves only to troll.
A comm doesn't feel like his marines are listening...simply recycles and ends the game...seen it happen and also heard the marines rage in teh RR.
There's really no reason to twist GORGEous' words around in the vain attempt at a valid rebuttal. There is no way for the recycle ability to be restricted enough to stop the commander from ending the game that won't affect recycle as a gameplay mechanic. Even if you were to stop the commander from recycling 2 IPs, 1 Resource Tower, the Armory and the Arms Lab he would still be able to recycle enough to take the Marine team out of the game for good. The only real solution to the problem is either to completely remove recycle from the game or give server admins the ability to disable on their server which would cripple and cause a loss for the Marine team in more cases than the commander recycling all your shit to "troll" you. Most commanders that recycle anyway do it because the game is over and idiots want to play grab ass in Marine Start with Grenade Launchers.
The fact that agree with Savant should clue you in to how wrong you actually are.
Sorry I did not twist Gorgeuos' words, he is saying that 1 person (ie the marine comm) should be able to decide a game is over.
L
O
L
Glad you find it amusing.
As many people say, this is not NS1.
We have T and P res on both sides so recylcing simply allows the marines to do something that the other side cant.
That coupled with the ability for 1 person to decide a game is over when the rest of the server still wants to play.
You dont like the attitude of the players who want to fight it out and find yourself in the minority (ie cant get a conccede vote up) then leave the server and go find people who have the same idea of game play as yourself.
Dont force your opinion onto the rest of your team and server.
But yet, you want to force your opinion on the team and server. Take some of your own damn advice.
The marine comm is the core of the team. Period. He is responsible from everything outside of taking territory. He deserves the right to end the game when derpy marines don't listen to given orders.
Why would you even want to drag on a game that is obviously lost? You must be one of those derpy marines that never listens to orders and just constantly rushes off to your death on your own whims of what you think is right, but is actually completely wrong.
Res has nothing to do with it. Idiots are idiots, regardless of how much res they have or don't have. Marines REQUIRE teamwork. Your PRES has no bearing on how well you listen to your comm. Aliens can skate passed this simply because they don't need as much teamwork until it comes to big pushes, or ninja pushes.
Either way, your ideal of fighting until the bitter end does nothing but waste everyone's time. You may find it fun, but it isn't, at all. The "majority" would prefer a well fought game, with all of it's ups and downs, and not just another damn turtle fest because some random decided "HEY, LET'S NOT END THIS CRAP EVEN THOUGH MY TEAM IS BEING DOMINATED AT EVERY TURN AND HASN'T SCORED A SINGLE KILL YET."
It's funny to see you try so hard when you are so very, very wrong. You, clearly, know nothing of actual team based gaming. Must be a halo kid.
ROFL...okay I must be a halo kid because I dont believe 1 person (who happened to hop in the chair) has any more right to decide the outcome than any other INDIVIDUAL player.
Sorry but if UWE shared your opinion then the concede vote should only be able to be selected by the comm and not require the majority of the side.
You say I know nothing about team play...yet you believe 1 person is the team.
This is not some RTS where you control NPC's....these are actual people who are playing this game for fun.
I am not trying to force my view upon the server at all...I am merely wanting to allow the players on the marine team decide if they want to end the game.
If I happen to not want to concede but the majority on my team do I accept this...I cant change the fact that the majority rules (as this is how things work in a democratic society).
Stop throwing wobblies, taking your bat and ball and going home. If you dont want to play out the round...then f4, leave the server. Dont go screwing the game up for the other 11-23 people on the server simply because you never learnt how to play nicely.
Its extremely childish behaviour to recycle as a way to concede, since teh concede vote was put in place there is no justification besides being a troll or acting like a spoilt child who cares not that the other 5+ people on the team WANT to keep playing.
I refer you to my previous post on page 2 of this thread.
As a comm, if you believe the game is over, you should tell your team this, get out of the chair and vote to concede, and rally for others to do the same. This has worked for me on EVERY SINGLE OCCASION I have been in this position. What really ticks me off is when someone jumps in the comm chair and recycles when actually the game isn't completely lost, or even if it is when the majority on the team want to see it through - this isn't my preferred choice, and in these cases I will head off to another server. That's my choice, and my right, but it is NOT my right to interfere with what the majority wants regarding this.
The commander's decisions throughout the game are his/her own and the team often doesn't get a say: but the key point here is that the commander is trying to win the game. You cannot compare this to the choice to lose the game, which is irreversible and forfeits any chance of a comeback. Now it so happens that many times, certainly the majority of times, this happens when the game IS lost, but it usually happens without any consultation with the team. ASK THEM, they will almost certainly agree with you and vote to concede. I have yet to see this not happen. In those cases where your mood is such that you can't see a way to win the game (can be quite often...), but such a way in fact exists and the team is able to find it, then your premature, unilateral and potentially unwanted decision to recycle actually costs a game that could have been won. Furthermore, these tend to be the 'epic' games: those ones we all remember where one team comes back from the brink of defeat in a glorious victory.
So stop being so cocky that you always know best, and ask your bloody team what they want to do. It really isn't that difficult.
Incidentally hakenspit, you did twist gorgeous' words - he merely stated that the recycle mechanic is useful, and taking it away will do more harm than good. He didn't argue this to the next degree in the way you implied!
A clear message from the server admins and common decency from all players are the two things required here. People need to realise that when they think a game is totally lost (perhaps rightly, but perhaps not), the best course of action that will always irritate the fewest of their co-gamers is to put the decision to concede to a vote to the whole team.
As I keep saying, the point of the commander is to make the game work smoothly. Conceding is a part of that. The commander kind of is an admin in a lot of ways, or at least he's a lot like a GM in a tabletop game.
Not even close. The commander is none of those things. The commander is just ONE player in a game who happens to have a different role. That role does NOT include acting like a spoiled child when they are losing and recycling the base.
People need to grow up. Seriously. If you can't stand where the game is going. If you can't handle the fact the other 15 people want to keep playing, then the disconnect button is only a couple clicks away. Use it.
I don't know where you get the idea that all players in the game are equal and deserve equal treatment, because they most certainly aren't.
The commander is more important than everyone else, without the commander the team does not function, when the commander tells you to do something, you do it without question, because the entire POINT of the hierarchy is to remove discussion. Discussion leads to wasted time, wasted time leads to inefficient games, inefficient games lead to unenjoyable games, not least because most of the time it means you're losing and don't get to play with any of the fun tools your side offers.
Once the commander is in the chair, you follow his or her instructions, that is how the game works, that is how the game MUST work because if one team does that and the other doesn't, the team that does will win, assuming the commander is not mentally unwell or something. Perhaps the confusion lies in that it is not strictly the PLAYER that is more important, but the POSITION, and the player only becomes important so long as they occupy the position. Certainly the player stops being important when they are not commanding, be that from the chair or otherwise, but whoever happens to occupy the spot at the top of the hierarchy is someone you must listen to, if your team is going to use a hierarchical command structure (which is what the game is designed for). If you happen to have found a way to make democracy fast and efficient at all times, I'd love to see it in action, but if you haven't, hierarchy is the way to go.
The point of a TEAM game, as humans do not exist in a state of collective consciousness, is to turn a disparate group of individuals into a single, unified entity, with many parts which can act seemingly independently, but are actually each a component of the whole. The most well understood method of doing this is a hierarchy, where the majority follow the instructions of a minority, or singular individual, and act as extensions of that individual's will.
I really don't see any reason why that teamwork should not extend to concession. It has all the advantages it does anywhere else. Commander controlled concession is faster and more efficient than democratic concession, and assuming a sufficiently capable commander (which you should, because the rest of the game assumes it) it is going to be the best decision, because that is what a sufficiently capable commander does, makes the best decision for everyone else without having to ask them.
I don't see what is not 'grown up' about this. If a player throws a hissy fit fit about democracy when the commander makes a decision he disagrees with, in a game that requires autocracy to function, that is surely more childish than being willing to work together at all times?
You CANNOT compare the decisions a commander makes when trying to win the game (ie every single decision that commander should make) to those that are made to forfeit the game.
If a troll commander jumps in the chair and drops 100 res worth of medpacks, you would eject him. You do this because it's clear his decisions are not trying to win the game (ie he's a troll). As players, we give our commanders carte blanche to try to win the game, but we DO NOT want them to throw the game.
Being willing to work together at all times should include being prepared to come to a majority decision to stop the game when it is lost!
Now we've played together a fair number of times, I think. You are, as I am, an active communicator with the team. That makes me even more surprised that you would consider it reasonable to take the unilateral decision to finish a game rather than discussing it with the team. It's no more effort (in fact it's less effort than clicking on everything to recycle it, really...), and I really REALLY don't buy this efficiency argument. That's a crutch for not doing it the right way.
If it seems too difficult to work together on this, then one possible solution to help people (ie to stop the pro-recyclers irritating everyone else) would be the following:
A 'Initiate Concede Vote' button in the comm chair which brings up a message for each marine that the commander wishes to concede the game. Give them a time limit to respond (say 20s) . If >50% of people vote to continue, it goes on, otherwise the concede vote goes through and aliens win. This makes it so that people have to actively respond to continue otherwise the commander gets his way and it finishes: but it satisfies those of us who don't agree that the commander should be able to make everyone else stop playing unilaterally (and without communication - my biggest bugbear).
PS what's 'not grown up' about it is that your idea of fun, my idea of fun, Flayra's idea of fun and whoever else's idea of fun don't necessarily coincide, and shouldn't have to coincide. Just because you don't like the turtle (I happen to agree with you on that), doesn't mean that other people don't or shouldn't. If you're on a server where the majority wants to turtle, leave! I don't try to dictate how other people get their kicks, and I don't want other people to tell me how I should get mine. It so happens that we have like-minded views about how the game 'should' be played, and what is most fun about the game, but this doesn't mean that we should force those views on others, which is what happens when you recycle. This IS different from commanding: your team might want exos first, but your choice to get jetpacks first is done to help your team win, which is the goal, and what the whole team wants.
You CANNOT compare the decisions a commander makes when trying to win the game (ie every single decision that commander should make) to those that are made to forfeit the game.
If a troll commander jumps in the chair and drops 100 res worth of medpacks, you would eject him. You do this because it's clear his decisions are not trying to win the game (ie he's a troll). As players, we give our commanders carte blanche to try to win the game, but we DO NOT want them to throw the game.
Being willing to work together at all times should include being prepared to come to a majority decision to stop the game when it is lost!
Now we've played together a fair number of times, I think. You are, as I am, an active communicator with the team. That makes me even more surprised that you would consider it reasonable to take the unilateral decision to finish a game rather than discussing it with the team. It's no more effort (in fact it's less effort than clicking on everything to recycle it, really...), and I really REALLY don't buy this efficiency argument. That's a crutch for not doing it the right way.
If it seems too difficult to work together on this, then one possible solution to help people (ie to stop the pro-recyclers irritating everyone else) would be the following:
A 'Initiate Concede Vote' button in the comm chair which brings up a message for each marine that the commander wishes to concede the game. Give them a time limit to respond (say 20s) . If >50% of people vote to continue, it goes on, otherwise the concede vote goes through and aliens win. This makes it so that people have to actively respond to continue otherwise the commander gets his way and it finishes: but it satisfies those of us who don't agree that the commander should be able to make everyone else stop playing unilaterally (and without communication - my biggest bugbear).
I'm not missing the point, I simply don't agree with it. The point of a game as I understand it is to be enjoyable, that is not the same thing as winning.
Winning can of course be a major and even key element of fun, generally a game is more fun when you're winning or at least holding your own, because of course you get access to all the tools and things your side has to offer, and you also are probably having an interesting and varied strategic game with land exchanging hands and suchlike, there is also the sense of achievement some people get from winning, and the tension people feel when it is at stake.
But actually winning in and of itself is not the end goal, the tension, the variety, the achievement and such are all forms of enjoyment, and that is the end goal of playing a game. As a commander your primary responsibility is to the enjoyment of your team, and that does sometimes mean seeing when they're going to lose, and conceding.
For one thing, as a commander I have a better view of how things are going. A marine on the ground probably doesn't know what's going on everywhere, but if I see aliens pressuring all our extractors, we just lost a forward base, and everyone is gravitating back towards marine start, I can pretty much say that the game is lost, because I can tell they won't be able to push back out, we're only going to lose more, and I know my own ability as a commander is probably not good enough to pull some miraculous feat of leadership. And that is a decision only I can make, because only I know what my skill level is and what the state of the entire team is like.
It's with that unique knowledge that I make all the decisions about how to win the game, and it's that unique knowledge that makes me better than anyone else on the team at making decisions about how to win the game. That same knowledge also makes me better at deciding if we're going to lose the game, so my decision as commander (and anyone else's decision as commander, generally) is simply better than uninformed democracy.
Of course I could tell everyone that we're losing and explain why and invite discussion and wait for a consensus, but why waste time? I generally find saying 'we're losing, everyone's getting ready to turtle, probably going to recycle' waiting 10 seconds for any unlikely rush of complaints, then doing it is all I need to do. And that only so that people don't confuse it for some sort of bug while the rest of the marines die off.
If one or two people complain, ehh, people complain about everything. I've never had more than that, and honestly rarely if ever have any complaint. I again put that down to being able to make the right decision. I can tell when there is no point continuing, and recycle if and when that is the case. If other commanders receive more complaints, I would suggest that is because they are bad at deciding when you've lost, but that is not a problem with the act of making that decision, but with their ability to make it properly. As is the case with commanding in general.
This is why I compare the commander to a GM, their purpose is to take everyone's differing ideas of fun, and make decisions which either work for everyone, or at least work for as many as possible. My experience tells me that most of the time, turtling is not what people want. Of course sometimes I will still do it, because sometimes we've had a string of terrible games as marines and we haven't managed to get any real gameplay in, so I might decide to protract a loss a bit just so people get some time to play with their toys and fight some aliens. It depends on how the game has been going. Generally however, skipping the mop up phase or choosing not to turtle is the better option, and I don't have any problem relying on my perception of the people playing with me and what I think they will want in order to make that decision. I don't need to explicitly ask every time in order to make a good decision, or at least I've yet to receive any real complaint about it.
Again, your idea of enjoyment doesn't have to be the same as everyone else's, and you don't have the right to dictate what they should and shouldn't enjoy! Enjoyment and fun are subjective things. You can still have fun and lose, and you can still have fun and lose without conceding or recycling. Not every game has to end in a turtle, and not every game has to be conceded at the first sign of trouble, or even the loss of a second base. By allowing, more specifically condoning the unilateral ending of the game by the marine comm without consultation, you run the risk of ruining other people's enjoyment. How much time is 'wasted' by communicating with the team to reach a decision about finishing the game? Really? 20 seconds, 30? At most. I have very limited gaming time, and I really hate wasting time, but 20 or 30 seconds to ensure that at least a consensus can be reached is time well spent IMO.
I will angrily shout at a commander who recycles without consulting the team, even if I agree that the game is lost and will vote to concede that game: it's rude and doesn't allow anyone who DOES want to continue to have their say. There is a mechanism in place to vote concede, there are voice comms to ask marines if anyone objects to recycling (I don't oppose this, but would rather have the team vote to concede in case there are people who didn't understand me if their first language isn't English).
Those marines have often gone along with your orders, and have worked with you to the best of your - and their - ability. Even if they were rubbish and didn't follow orders (in which case... change of server might be best anyway!), I think they deserve at least the courtesy of consultation before the plug is pulled on the game.
This is why I compare the commander to a GM, their purpose is to take everyone's differing ideas of fun, and make decisions which either work for everyone, or at least work for as many as possible.
GM: Okay guys, you see an Army of Orcs in front of you, and a Dragon approaching on the Horizon. What do you do?
Players: I ready my Fireball! I prepare Healing Spells! I ready my bow! I draw my sword!
GM: You know guys, I'm the GM and I know whats coming. You all die, get ready to roll up new characters.
Players: "WHAT?!?"
GM: I'm the GM, you guys made me the GM. I have more knowledge than you about what is going on. I know what fun is. You won't win, it won't be fun. Just roll up new characters. I'm bored with this game and so should you be.
This doesn't sound like any table top RPG I have ever played...
This is why I compare the commander to a GM, their purpose is to take everyone's differing ideas of fun, and make decisions which either work for everyone, or at least work for as many as possible.
GM: Okay guys, you see an Army of Orcs in front of you, and a Dragon approaching on the Horizon. What do you do?
Players: I ready my Fireball! I prepare Healing Spells! I ready my bow! I draw my sword!
GM: You know guys, I'm the GM and I know whats coming. You all die, get ready to roll up new characters.
Players: "WHAT?!?"
GM: I'm the GM, you guys made me the GM. I have more knowledge than you about what is going on. I know what fun is. You won't win, it won't be fun. Just roll up new characters. I'm bored with this game and so should you be.
This doesn't sound like any table top RPG I have ever played...
You clearly haven't played with some of the people I know.
I think that any attempt to program this troll tactic out of the game will likely result in more frustration for legitimate players than the very rare occurrence of a trollmander recycling both IPs.
I disagree, I dont see why we would allow 1 person to make a decision for the entire team and recycle.
Concede is put in place to ensure a majority want to end the game.
If your in the minority on your team and cant get a concede vote to work then you should either play it out (seeing as thats what everyone else wants to do) or leave the server.
Seriously I cant believe that people are arguing for this to be left in, considering we now have official way to end these long drawn out games (either f4 or vote concede).
You say "legitimate players"...what about us legitimate players who wanted to play out the game?
Why should a minority influence the game experience for the majority?
Sounds like some players people dont understand that not every game needs to be serious.
Some of us play for enjoyment, if thats what the majority of the server wants then thats what they should get.
Their is a reason that the concede vote is not set to say 10% of the players on a team...its to stop 1 or 2 trolls conceding the map for everyone.
Recycle still gives these people that option, get rid of recycle options.
Its only 1 team that can do it...and its most often done to end a game (prior to concede), now you see people conceding rather than recycling (atleast I do on teh aussie servers (though some people need to be told what to do).
You can't believe people don't support restrictions on marine recycle because you don't understand why they want it. To me, this isn't about troll commanders (very, very rare -- I've seen it happen in the single digits out of 1000+ hours played). Vote concede and surrender are irrelevant because this also is not about commanders single handedly ending the game. This is because there are, albeit very rare, circumstances where a commander would legitimately want to recycle something where these restrictions would inevitably get in the way.
The benefit from this is so tiny that it will likely be overshadowed by the annoyance of the feature. I'm not convinced UWE needs to put time into this, nor that it would actually be net beneficial.
Yay...so you want 1 person to be able to end a game...why the heck did UWE not them add teh concede button only to the comm view?
Oh wait...because they believe to concede is not a decision for 1 player, but rather the majority.
I cant believe I actually am in agreement with Savant...that I think indicates that this is more than just whether the marines can concede a game but whether 1 person should be able to end a game without his teams agreement.
Troll or 1337 player who believes the game is over...is the majority of the team does not exist then a recycle should not be able to happen.
Whether this is things not being able to be recycled if in same room as a comm chair or just removing the recycle option all together something has to change.
I am sick of having 1 person decide for everyone else that a game is over, this is a bad mechanic as it ONLY APPLIES TO MARINES.
Aliens can just as easily need to recycle a chamber to drop an RT..but cant. I dont see why marines should get this luxury if aliens dont.
We have F4 and Concede that are for both side to end game that are over...recycling a base is no longer needed and serves only to troll.
A comm doesn't feel like his marines are listening...simply recycles and ends the game...seen it happen and also heard the marines rage in teh RR.
I don't care if one commander can end the game for the entire team because it rarely happens when the team doesn't want it anyway. There is no way to restrict what a commander can recycle withing negatively impacting legitimate commanders try to recycle for non-troll reasons. Let's pretend we implement these restrictions and a commander cannot recycle his IPs. What if he just recycles all the phase gates and RTs? Are you going to program that out as well? What if he rushes flamethrowers instead of building an arms lab. Can we program that out as well? What if the commander gets in the chair and drops 50 medpacks using all 50 of your starting tres. Can we program that out as well?
If that paragraph seems repetitive.... that's my point. You can't program this crap out of the game in an effective manner.
I think that any attempt to program this troll tactic out of the game will likely result in more frustration for legitimate players than the very rare occurrence of a trollmander recycling both IPs.
I disagree, I dont see why we would allow 1 person to make a decision for the entire team and recycle.
Concede is put in place to ensure a majority want to end the game.
If your in the minority on your team and cant get a concede vote to work then you should either play it out (seeing as thats what everyone else wants to do) or leave the server.
Seriously I cant believe that people are arguing for this to be left in, considering we now have official way to end these long drawn out games (either f4 or vote concede).
You say "legitimate players"...what about us legitimate players who wanted to play out the game?
Why should a minority influence the game experience for the majority?
Sounds like some players people dont understand that not every game needs to be serious.
Some of us play for enjoyment, if thats what the majority of the server wants then thats what they should get.
Their is a reason that the concede vote is not set to say 10% of the players on a team...its to stop 1 or 2 trolls conceding the map for everyone.
Recycle still gives these people that option, get rid of recycle options.
Its only 1 team that can do it...and its most often done to end a game (prior to concede), now you see people conceding rather than recycling (atleast I do on teh aussie servers (though some people need to be told what to do).
You can't believe people don't support restrictions on marine recycle because you don't understand why they want it. To me, this isn't about troll commanders (very, very rare -- I've seen it happen in the single digits out of 1000+ hours played). Vote concede and surrender are irrelevant because this also is not about commanders single handedly ending the game. This is because there are, albeit very rare, circumstances where a commander would legitimately want to recycle something where these restrictions would inevitably get in the way.
The benefit from this is so tiny that it will likely be overshadowed by the annoyance of the feature. I'm not convinced UWE needs to put time into this, nor that it would actually be net beneficial.
Yay...so you want 1 person to be able to end a game...why the heck did UWE not them add teh concede button only to the comm view?
Oh wait...because they believe to concede is not a decision for 1 player, but rather the majority.
I cant believe I actually am in agreement with Savant...that I think indicates that this is more than just whether the marines can concede a game but whether 1 person should be able to end a game without his teams agreement.
Troll or 1337 player who believes the game is over...is the majority of the team does not exist then a recycle should not be able to happen.
Whether this is things not being able to be recycled if in same room as a comm chair or just removing the recycle option all together something has to change.
I am sick of having 1 person decide for everyone else that a game is over, this is a bad mechanic as it ONLY APPLIES TO MARINES.
Aliens can just as easily need to recycle a chamber to drop an RT..but cant. I dont see why marines should get this luxury if aliens dont.
We have F4 and Concede that are for both side to end game that are over...recycling a base is no longer needed and serves only to troll.
A comm doesn't feel like his marines are listening...simply recycles and ends the game...seen it happen and also heard the marines rage in teh RR.
There's really no reason to twist GORGEous' words around in the vain attempt at a valid rebuttal. There is no way for the recycle ability to be restricted enough to stop the commander from ending the game that won't affect recycle as a gameplay mechanic. Even if you were to stop the commander from recycling 2 IPs, 1 Resource Tower, the Armory and the Arms Lab he would still be able to recycle enough to take the Marine team out of the game for good. The only real solution to the problem is either to completely remove recycle from the game or give server admins the ability to disable on their server which would cripple and cause a loss for the Marine team in more cases than the commander recycling all your shit to "troll" you. Most commanders that recycle anyway do it because the game is over and idiots want to play grab ass in Marine Start with Grenade Launchers.
The fact that agree with Savant should clue you in to how wrong you actually are.
Sorry I did not twist Gorgeuos' words, he is saying that 1 person (ie the marine comm) should be able to decide a game is over.
Hello. Real GORGEous here. I never said, nor do I really believe, that 1 person should be able to decide a gamer is over. You didn't twist my words, you just flat out talked past them. I explicitly said that I don't care about it because it isn't a problem. It doesn't happen very often and any attempt to fix it will hurt the marine commander's ability to recycle in legitimate games.
I care more about maintaining the marine commander's ability than I do about fixing a 1 in 1000 troll.
DC_DarklingJoin Date: 2003-07-10Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver
I will repeat myself because noone followed on it.
A marine commander, can at any time, in any way, destroy his own team. You do not need recycle to destroy it, it just helps. It IS a hierarchy. They have to listen.
Yes this makes you under the influences of a comm. If he is bad, then a recycle can be really evil. A good comm will not end anything the team clearly sees as a loss & funless.
But he still can. You can not stop a commander from destroying your teams power.
Disabling recycling is not the answer. Finding a 'better' way to quit a lost game is.
I see recyling as a moot point, as more and more actually concede. But let us asume they do not.
I tend to recycle unused stuff, shove everything in weapons, recycle the IPs and send them all on a mission to grab a hive under the line 'last man standing, lets see who wins'.
Works great. XD
We can discus for eons if this is right or wrong, but it just has no use. Taking recycle out the game is a nerf marines can not use. Limiting recycle will not prevent the 'problem' while also nerfing.
I do not see the problem as existing in the first place. Get on a server community, report trolls to the admins and see them banned. Gratz, your server community just got better and you still can recycle.
Lets spend our times arguing about stuff which actually has something to fix shall we?
What if a mass recycle triggered a concede vote and put the recycle on hold? Make it the same percentage as the concede vote, but put a pop-up on the screen that has to be voted on to dismiss. Vote passes, recycle completes, vote fails; Com is ejected and play continues.
Then when you sell your entire second base because you lost it and want to recover resources you get ejected?
Fair enough. Don't trigger concede votes for un-powered structures.
Also, as I write this, I see a flaw already (just theorycrafting here) with a slow and deliberate recycle to circumvent the vote. Not sure how to identify this to the code though.
I think the unilateral decision to recycle is a problem, but not an enormous problem. I think it stems from commanders with short patience, or frustration. I don't have a problem with recycling when all is lost. I just feel that commanders that do recycle tend to do so too soon on most occasions; and generally do so out of frustration rather than any real "in game" reason.
This is why I compare the commander to a GM, their purpose is to take everyone's differing ideas of fun, and make decisions which either work for everyone, or at least work for as many as possible.
GM: Okay guys, you see an Army of Orcs in front of you, and a Dragon approaching on the Horizon. What do you do?
Players: I ready my Fireball! I prepare Healing Spells! I ready my bow! I draw my sword!
GM: You know guys, I'm the GM and I know whats coming. You all die, get ready to roll up new characters.
Players: "WHAT?!?"
GM: I'm the GM, you guys made me the GM. I have more knowledge than you about what is going on. I know what fun is. You won't win, it won't be fun. Just roll up new characters. I'm bored with this game and so should you be.
This doesn't sound like any table top RPG I have ever played...
The GM absolutely has the power to do that. If he's an abusive GM your game is screwed anyway. This thread's solution would be to come up with a mountain of new game rules that tie the GM's hands such that he can never exert his own will on the game, only follow the game mechanics to the letter. May as well not even have a GM then.
Troll commanders stealing the chair from the real one is a problem that's tough to solve but might potentially be fixable(i.e. give the commander a separate log out button that reserves his chair for him). Real commanders deciding to end the game, on the other hand, cannot be prevented without fundamentally changing what NS is about.
The GM absolutely has the power to do that. If he's an abusive GM your game is screwed anyway. This thread's solution would be to come up with a mountain of new game rules that tie the GM's hands such that he can never exert his own will on the game, only follow the game mechanics to the letter. May as well not even have a GM then.
Troll commanders stealing the chair from the real one is a problem that's tough to solve but might potentially be fixable(i.e. give the commander a separate log out button that reserves his chair for him). Real commanders deciding to end the game, on the other hand, cannot be prevented without fundamentally changing what NS is about.
The GM has the power to hit people with his books too, it doesn't make it right nor viable.
Any GM that did this would soon find his game vacant of players. He is face to face with the players and won't act like a total tool in person.
The Commander role has the "benefit" of internet anonymity; and as such will act accordingly.
I have, on more than one occasion, seen Commanders recycle the base after the first failed attempt at securing a second techpoint. This is not game over. I have seen commanders recycle after watching an engagement in some unimportant room where the marine team got wiped. This game is not over.
I don't know how to fix it, and as I said it is a rare problem. I just think it could use some brainstorming to see if there is a viable solution.
As far as "troll commanders and a special log out button" I see that as rife with abuse potential, far worse that a troll spamming med kits.
Wow talk about essays. I salute those of you with enough time to read all this crap.
The devs typically only make user requested changes like this if its clear that the majority want it, and since only a few of you moral fellows are up in arms about it, the rest of us will go on not giving a damn about what you, or the other newbs think and recycling the base and you will continue to complain about it.
Like I said above, programmers are pretty intelligent people, they can figure this out if they feel it is a worthwhile thing to consider. Another option?
-If the comm starts to mass recycle structures that are not under attack and that are the 'last of their kind', the game delays the recycle and pops up a note saying "Commander is recycling key marine structures - Allow or Eject?" along with a timer to vote within 15 seconds. If more vote to eject, the comm gets his ass kicked out of the chair and the recycle is aborted. (If it is allowed the structures vanish instantly.)
Add this to restrictions which prevent IP recycling of your last 2 IPs, as well as other 'last of' certain buildings, and this could go a long way to addressing this issue. Every time someone finds a way around it, plug the hole. Pretty soon there will be no more leaks.
I feel strongly that we shouldn't allow babies to spoil the game for the other 15 people on the server because their eyes are so clouded with tears that they can't act their age. If they are frustrated and can't stand to play anymore, "don't let the door hit you on the way out" - we'll get along just fine without their base recycling wisdom.
I think the real question to ask is: Is there enough abuse to justify yet another "law" that takes away from the game mechanics?
I don't think so.
I think this is key as well.
The problem I have is, if its allowed to continue, will it's use increase?
One thing that permeates games is "If they left it in, it is tacit approval of the function" which then gets trumpeted around and "working as intended". What would be cool is if UWE had any stats on hand for these types of actions and simply chimed in that "statistically, this isn't a problem" or "we don't want to change this". Only problem is there is no stat for "player dissatisfaction" other than a bleeding user base.
Do we close the barn door before or after the horses have left?
That's really the bottom line here, which is why many of my posts speak to the issues of the 'average player'. When you do this for a living you know which side your bread is buttered on. Consumers are what make or break a game. If you can't sell a game to the masses, then you're shooting yourself in the foot by leaving in game mechanics that are undesirable. It doesn't matter if you have a handful of so-called 'experts' who tell you that a certain mechanic is good the way it is. Bottom line?
Does the game sell copies?
That is the question. The next question, will making the proposed change help to sell more copies? If it removes something annoying from the game, the answer is yes. Since the change to add concede came in, I haven't been in a single game where people were happy about a recycle. Not once. Usually all that happens is that when the IPs are gone and people are sitting in a spawn queue they leave the server. Then when the game ends you have 10 people out of 16, so it ends up being 5 on 5, which many people aren't keen on, so they start leaving too. Pretty soon you have an empty server. All because one crybaby couldn't handle how the game was playing out.
Frankly, seeing as how the developers put concede into the game, I think they will do something about this. If they felt this was a viable way to end games they wouldn't have bothered with concede now would they? Why put something in if there is already something that does that same thing? The difference is that with recycle the developers recognized that players weren't getting a chance to have a say in the matter. So they gave them a say. However, there are still some immature players out there who refuse to accept the will of the majority, which is why I started this thread.
1: Lead by example of getting people to concede rather than recycle. The more people know about it, the less of an issue it is with people single-handedly recycling without consultation.
2: Shout at people who recycle without asking their team. If they ask their team and the team agrees, it's all good.
3: If in a month or two there is a prevalence of idiots recycling without asking (which I suggest there currently isn't, it's a small minority who do it), then add a button to the command console to start a concede vote which pings every player for a response. No response after 15 seconds = accept concede.
I honestly don't think we need to even go to step 3, but I for one will continue with 1 and 2 as I have been doing, and I suggest you lot do the same
Comments
This is NS...
Letting one person make decisions for an entire team is basically the core game mechanic.
Whine Date: 2013-1-31
Sorry I did not twist Gorgeuos' words, he is saying that 1 person (ie the marine comm) should be able to decide a game is over.
The alien khamm cant do this, and neither does the concede feature allow 1 person to arbutrarily decide to forfeit a game.
This is not chess, you cant simply concede without the rest of your team agreeing.
So why do we allow for things to exploited via recycling?
Simply ejecting the comm once this happes is not enough, as they will most likely spam med packs etc to ensure that no one else can hop in and re-build things.
This is a case of little kids having a sook and recycling, if you cant convince your team to concede (or atleast half of the team) then Play the game out.
There is a mechanic in the game to allow for a team to concede so its no longer able to be argued "This is how we stop games from needlessly dragging on".
Guess what we have a way to do this...it requires the majority of a team for it to pass.
Whilst I may not often agree with Savant I often dont agree with Ironhorse either...doesn't mean jack.
UWE put in the concede vote that requires over 50% and also fixed the eject comm only needing 2 votes.
Both of these changes show clearly that the opinion of hte wider team is more important than 1 person...regardless of how clever/experience/superior they may think they are.
1 Person making decisions without caveats is not at all what NS is about, otherwise why is there the "Eject Commander button"?
If your comm wont med pack (and rest of team wants to play on) then eject your commander, we should not allow 1 persons opinion to control the gaming experience for 11-23 other people (as it impacts both sides).
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Glad you find it amusing.
As many people say, this is not NS1.
We have T and P res on both sides so recylcing simply allows the marines to do something that the other side cant.
That coupled with the ability for 1 person to decide a game is over when the rest of the server still wants to play.
You dont like the attitude of the players who want to fight it out and find yourself in the minority (ie cant get a conccede vote up) then leave the server and go find people who have the same idea of game play as yourself.
Dont force your opinion onto the rest of your team and server.
But yet, you want to force your opinion on the team and server. Take some of your own damn advice.
The marine comm is the core of the team. Period. He is responsible from everything outside of taking territory. He deserves the right to end the game when derpy marines don't listen to given orders.
Why would you even want to drag on a game that is obviously lost? You must be one of those derpy marines that never listens to orders and just constantly rushes off to your death on your own whims of what you think is right, but is actually completely wrong.
Res has nothing to do with it. Idiots are idiots, regardless of how much res they have or don't have. Marines REQUIRE teamwork. Your PRES has no bearing on how well you listen to your comm. Aliens can skate passed this simply because they don't need as much teamwork until it comes to big pushes, or ninja pushes.
Either way, your ideal of fighting until the bitter end does nothing but waste everyone's time. You may find it fun, but it isn't, at all. The "majority" would prefer a well fought game, with all of it's ups and downs, and not just another damn turtle fest because some random decided "HEY, LET'S NOT END THIS CRAP EVEN THOUGH MY TEAM IS BEING DOMINATED AT EVERY TURN AND HASN'T SCORED A SINGLE KILL YET."
It's funny to see you try so hard when you are so very, very wrong. You, clearly, know nothing of actual team based gaming. Must be a halo kid.
ROFL...okay I must be a halo kid because I dont believe 1 person (who happened to hop in the chair) has any more right to decide the outcome than any other INDIVIDUAL player.
Sorry but if UWE shared your opinion then the concede vote should only be able to be selected by the comm and not require the majority of the side.
You say I know nothing about team play...yet you believe 1 person is the team.
This is not some RTS where you control NPC's....these are actual people who are playing this game for fun.
I am not trying to force my view upon the server at all...I am merely wanting to allow the players on the marine team decide if they want to end the game.
If I happen to not want to concede but the majority on my team do I accept this...I cant change the fact that the majority rules (as this is how things work in a democratic society).
Stop throwing wobblies, taking your bat and ball and going home. If you dont want to play out the round...then f4, leave the server. Dont go screwing the game up for the other 11-23 people on the server simply because you never learnt how to play nicely.
Its extremely childish behaviour to recycle as a way to concede, since teh concede vote was put in place there is no justification besides being a troll or acting like a spoilt child who cares not that the other 5+ people on the team WANT to keep playing.
As a comm, if you believe the game is over, you should tell your team this, get out of the chair and vote to concede, and rally for others to do the same. This has worked for me on EVERY SINGLE OCCASION I have been in this position. What really ticks me off is when someone jumps in the comm chair and recycles when actually the game isn't completely lost, or even if it is when the majority on the team want to see it through - this isn't my preferred choice, and in these cases I will head off to another server. That's my choice, and my right, but it is NOT my right to interfere with what the majority wants regarding this.
The commander's decisions throughout the game are his/her own and the team often doesn't get a say: but the key point here is that the commander is trying to win the game. You cannot compare this to the choice to lose the game, which is irreversible and forfeits any chance of a comeback. Now it so happens that many times, certainly the majority of times, this happens when the game IS lost, but it usually happens without any consultation with the team. ASK THEM, they will almost certainly agree with you and vote to concede. I have yet to see this not happen. In those cases where your mood is such that you can't see a way to win the game (can be quite often...), but such a way in fact exists and the team is able to find it, then your premature, unilateral and potentially unwanted decision to recycle actually costs a game that could have been won. Furthermore, these tend to be the 'epic' games: those ones we all remember where one team comes back from the brink of defeat in a glorious victory.
So stop being so cocky that you always know best, and ask your bloody team what they want to do. It really isn't that difficult.
Incidentally hakenspit, you did twist gorgeous' words - he merely stated that the recycle mechanic is useful, and taking it away will do more harm than good. He didn't argue this to the next degree in the way you implied!
A clear message from the server admins and common decency from all players are the two things required here. People need to realise that when they think a game is totally lost (perhaps rightly, but perhaps not), the best course of action that will always irritate the fewest of their co-gamers is to put the decision to concede to a vote to the whole team.
I don't know where you get the idea that all players in the game are equal and deserve equal treatment, because they most certainly aren't.
The commander is more important than everyone else, without the commander the team does not function, when the commander tells you to do something, you do it without question, because the entire POINT of the hierarchy is to remove discussion. Discussion leads to wasted time, wasted time leads to inefficient games, inefficient games lead to unenjoyable games, not least because most of the time it means you're losing and don't get to play with any of the fun tools your side offers.
Once the commander is in the chair, you follow his or her instructions, that is how the game works, that is how the game MUST work because if one team does that and the other doesn't, the team that does will win, assuming the commander is not mentally unwell or something. Perhaps the confusion lies in that it is not strictly the PLAYER that is more important, but the POSITION, and the player only becomes important so long as they occupy the position. Certainly the player stops being important when they are not commanding, be that from the chair or otherwise, but whoever happens to occupy the spot at the top of the hierarchy is someone you must listen to, if your team is going to use a hierarchical command structure (which is what the game is designed for). If you happen to have found a way to make democracy fast and efficient at all times, I'd love to see it in action, but if you haven't, hierarchy is the way to go.
The point of a TEAM game, as humans do not exist in a state of collective consciousness, is to turn a disparate group of individuals into a single, unified entity, with many parts which can act seemingly independently, but are actually each a component of the whole. The most well understood method of doing this is a hierarchy, where the majority follow the instructions of a minority, or singular individual, and act as extensions of that individual's will.
I really don't see any reason why that teamwork should not extend to concession. It has all the advantages it does anywhere else. Commander controlled concession is faster and more efficient than democratic concession, and assuming a sufficiently capable commander (which you should, because the rest of the game assumes it) it is going to be the best decision, because that is what a sufficiently capable commander does, makes the best decision for everyone else without having to ask them.
I don't see what is not 'grown up' about this. If a player throws a hissy fit fit about democracy when the commander makes a decision he disagrees with, in a game that requires autocracy to function, that is surely more childish than being willing to work together at all times?
You CANNOT compare the decisions a commander makes when trying to win the game (ie every single decision that commander should make) to those that are made to forfeit the game.
If a troll commander jumps in the chair and drops 100 res worth of medpacks, you would eject him. You do this because it's clear his decisions are not trying to win the game (ie he's a troll). As players, we give our commanders carte blanche to try to win the game, but we DO NOT want them to throw the game.
Being willing to work together at all times should include being prepared to come to a majority decision to stop the game when it is lost!
Now we've played together a fair number of times, I think. You are, as I am, an active communicator with the team. That makes me even more surprised that you would consider it reasonable to take the unilateral decision to finish a game rather than discussing it with the team. It's no more effort (in fact it's less effort than clicking on everything to recycle it, really...), and I really REALLY don't buy this efficiency argument. That's a crutch for not doing it the right way.
If it seems too difficult to work together on this, then one possible solution to help people (ie to stop the pro-recyclers irritating everyone else) would be the following:
A 'Initiate Concede Vote' button in the comm chair which brings up a message for each marine that the commander wishes to concede the game. Give them a time limit to respond (say 20s) . If >50% of people vote to continue, it goes on, otherwise the concede vote goes through and aliens win. This makes it so that people have to actively respond to continue otherwise the commander gets his way and it finishes: but it satisfies those of us who don't agree that the commander should be able to make everyone else stop playing unilaterally (and without communication - my biggest bugbear).
I'm not missing the point, I simply don't agree with it. The point of a game as I understand it is to be enjoyable, that is not the same thing as winning.
Winning can of course be a major and even key element of fun, generally a game is more fun when you're winning or at least holding your own, because of course you get access to all the tools and things your side has to offer, and you also are probably having an interesting and varied strategic game with land exchanging hands and suchlike, there is also the sense of achievement some people get from winning, and the tension people feel when it is at stake.
But actually winning in and of itself is not the end goal, the tension, the variety, the achievement and such are all forms of enjoyment, and that is the end goal of playing a game. As a commander your primary responsibility is to the enjoyment of your team, and that does sometimes mean seeing when they're going to lose, and conceding.
For one thing, as a commander I have a better view of how things are going. A marine on the ground probably doesn't know what's going on everywhere, but if I see aliens pressuring all our extractors, we just lost a forward base, and everyone is gravitating back towards marine start, I can pretty much say that the game is lost, because I can tell they won't be able to push back out, we're only going to lose more, and I know my own ability as a commander is probably not good enough to pull some miraculous feat of leadership. And that is a decision only I can make, because only I know what my skill level is and what the state of the entire team is like.
It's with that unique knowledge that I make all the decisions about how to win the game, and it's that unique knowledge that makes me better than anyone else on the team at making decisions about how to win the game. That same knowledge also makes me better at deciding if we're going to lose the game, so my decision as commander (and anyone else's decision as commander, generally) is simply better than uninformed democracy.
Of course I could tell everyone that we're losing and explain why and invite discussion and wait for a consensus, but why waste time? I generally find saying 'we're losing, everyone's getting ready to turtle, probably going to recycle' waiting 10 seconds for any unlikely rush of complaints, then doing it is all I need to do. And that only so that people don't confuse it for some sort of bug while the rest of the marines die off.
If one or two people complain, ehh, people complain about everything. I've never had more than that, and honestly rarely if ever have any complaint. I again put that down to being able to make the right decision. I can tell when there is no point continuing, and recycle if and when that is the case. If other commanders receive more complaints, I would suggest that is because they are bad at deciding when you've lost, but that is not a problem with the act of making that decision, but with their ability to make it properly. As is the case with commanding in general.
This is why I compare the commander to a GM, their purpose is to take everyone's differing ideas of fun, and make decisions which either work for everyone, or at least work for as many as possible. My experience tells me that most of the time, turtling is not what people want. Of course sometimes I will still do it, because sometimes we've had a string of terrible games as marines and we haven't managed to get any real gameplay in, so I might decide to protract a loss a bit just so people get some time to play with their toys and fight some aliens. It depends on how the game has been going. Generally however, skipping the mop up phase or choosing not to turtle is the better option, and I don't have any problem relying on my perception of the people playing with me and what I think they will want in order to make that decision. I don't need to explicitly ask every time in order to make a good decision, or at least I've yet to receive any real complaint about it.
I will angrily shout at a commander who recycles without consulting the team, even if I agree that the game is lost and will vote to concede that game: it's rude and doesn't allow anyone who DOES want to continue to have their say. There is a mechanism in place to vote concede, there are voice comms to ask marines if anyone objects to recycling (I don't oppose this, but would rather have the team vote to concede in case there are people who didn't understand me if their first language isn't English).
Those marines have often gone along with your orders, and have worked with you to the best of your - and their - ability. Even if they were rubbish and didn't follow orders (in which case... change of server might be best anyway!), I think they deserve at least the courtesy of consultation before the plug is pulled on the game.
GM: Okay guys, you see an Army of Orcs in front of you, and a Dragon approaching on the Horizon. What do you do?
Players: I ready my Fireball! I prepare Healing Spells! I ready my bow! I draw my sword!
GM: You know guys, I'm the GM and I know whats coming. You all die, get ready to roll up new characters.
Players: "WHAT?!?"
GM: I'm the GM, you guys made me the GM. I have more knowledge than you about what is going on. I know what fun is. You won't win, it won't be fun. Just roll up new characters. I'm bored with this game and so should you be.
This doesn't sound like any table top RPG I have ever played...
You clearly haven't played with some of the people I know.
I don't care if one commander can end the game for the entire team because it rarely happens when the team doesn't want it anyway. There is no way to restrict what a commander can recycle withing negatively impacting legitimate commanders try to recycle for non-troll reasons. Let's pretend we implement these restrictions and a commander cannot recycle his IPs. What if he just recycles all the phase gates and RTs? Are you going to program that out as well? What if he rushes flamethrowers instead of building an arms lab. Can we program that out as well? What if the commander gets in the chair and drops 50 medpacks using all 50 of your starting tres. Can we program that out as well?
If that paragraph seems repetitive.... that's my point. You can't program this crap out of the game in an effective manner.
Hello. Real GORGEous here. I never said, nor do I really believe, that 1 person should be able to decide a gamer is over. You didn't twist my words, you just flat out talked past them. I explicitly said that I don't care about it because it isn't a problem. It doesn't happen very often and any attempt to fix it will hurt the marine commander's ability to recycle in legitimate games.
I care more about maintaining the marine commander's ability than I do about fixing a 1 in 1000 troll.
A marine commander, can at any time, in any way, destroy his own team. You do not need recycle to destroy it, it just helps. It IS a hierarchy. They have to listen.
Yes this makes you under the influences of a comm. If he is bad, then a recycle can be really evil. A good comm will not end anything the team clearly sees as a loss & funless.
But he still can. You can not stop a commander from destroying your teams power.
Disabling recycling is not the answer. Finding a 'better' way to quit a lost game is.
I see recyling as a moot point, as more and more actually concede. But let us asume they do not.
I tend to recycle unused stuff, shove everything in weapons, recycle the IPs and send them all on a mission to grab a hive under the line 'last man standing, lets see who wins'.
Works great. XD
We can discus for eons if this is right or wrong, but it just has no use. Taking recycle out the game is a nerf marines can not use. Limiting recycle will not prevent the 'problem' while also nerfing.
I do not see the problem as existing in the first place. Get on a server community, report trolls to the admins and see them banned. Gratz, your server community just got better and you still can recycle.
Lets spend our times arguing about stuff which actually has something to fix shall we?
Fair enough. Don't trigger concede votes for un-powered structures.
Also, as I write this, I see a flaw already (just theorycrafting here) with a slow and deliberate recycle to circumvent the vote. Not sure how to identify this to the code though.
I think the unilateral decision to recycle is a problem, but not an enormous problem. I think it stems from commanders with short patience, or frustration. I don't have a problem with recycling when all is lost. I just feel that commanders that do recycle tend to do so too soon on most occasions; and generally do so out of frustration rather than any real "in game" reason.
The GM absolutely has the power to do that. If he's an abusive GM your game is screwed anyway. This thread's solution would be to come up with a mountain of new game rules that tie the GM's hands such that he can never exert his own will on the game, only follow the game mechanics to the letter. May as well not even have a GM then.
Troll commanders stealing the chair from the real one is a problem that's tough to solve but might potentially be fixable(i.e. give the commander a separate log out button that reserves his chair for him). Real commanders deciding to end the game, on the other hand, cannot be prevented without fundamentally changing what NS is about.
The GM has the power to hit people with his books too, it doesn't make it right nor viable.
Any GM that did this would soon find his game vacant of players. He is face to face with the players and won't act like a total tool in person.
The Commander role has the "benefit" of internet anonymity; and as such will act accordingly.
I have, on more than one occasion, seen Commanders recycle the base after the first failed attempt at securing a second techpoint. This is not game over. I have seen commanders recycle after watching an engagement in some unimportant room where the marine team got wiped. This game is not over.
I don't know how to fix it, and as I said it is a rare problem. I just think it could use some brainstorming to see if there is a viable solution.
As far as "troll commanders and a special log out button" I see that as rife with abuse potential, far worse that a troll spamming med kits.
The devs typically only make user requested changes like this if its clear that the majority want it, and since only a few of you moral fellows are up in arms about it, the rest of us will go on not giving a damn about what you, or the other newbs think and recycling the base and you will continue to complain about it.
/end thread
-If the comm starts to mass recycle structures that are not under attack and that are the 'last of their kind', the game delays the recycle and pops up a note saying "Commander is recycling key marine structures - Allow or Eject?" along with a timer to vote within 15 seconds. If more vote to eject, the comm gets his ass kicked out of the chair and the recycle is aborted. (If it is allowed the structures vanish instantly.)
Add this to restrictions which prevent IP recycling of your last 2 IPs, as well as other 'last of' certain buildings, and this could go a long way to addressing this issue. Every time someone finds a way around it, plug the hole. Pretty soon there will be no more leaks.
I feel strongly that we shouldn't allow babies to spoil the game for the other 15 people on the server because their eyes are so clouded with tears that they can't act their age. If they are frustrated and can't stand to play anymore, "don't let the door hit you on the way out" - we'll get along just fine without their base recycling wisdom.
I don't think so.
I think this is key as well.
The problem I have is, if its allowed to continue, will it's use increase?
One thing that permeates games is "If they left it in, it is tacit approval of the function" which then gets trumpeted around and "working as intended". What would be cool is if UWE had any stats on hand for these types of actions and simply chimed in that "statistically, this isn't a problem" or "we don't want to change this". Only problem is there is no stat for "player dissatisfaction" other than a bleeding user base.
Do we close the barn door before or after the horses have left?
Is UWE at all concerned about this?
Does the game sell copies?
That is the question. The next question, will making the proposed change help to sell more copies? If it removes something annoying from the game, the answer is yes. Since the change to add concede came in, I haven't been in a single game where people were happy about a recycle. Not once. Usually all that happens is that when the IPs are gone and people are sitting in a spawn queue they leave the server. Then when the game ends you have 10 people out of 16, so it ends up being 5 on 5, which many people aren't keen on, so they start leaving too. Pretty soon you have an empty server. All because one crybaby couldn't handle how the game was playing out.
Frankly, seeing as how the developers put concede into the game, I think they will do something about this. If they felt this was a viable way to end games they wouldn't have bothered with concede now would they? Why put something in if there is already something that does that same thing? The difference is that with recycle the developers recognized that players weren't getting a chance to have a say in the matter. So they gave them a say. However, there are still some immature players out there who refuse to accept the will of the majority, which is why I started this thread.
I can only hope the developers are watching.
1: Lead by example of getting people to concede rather than recycle. The more people know about it, the less of an issue it is with people single-handedly recycling without consultation.
2: Shout at people who recycle without asking their team. If they ask their team and the team agrees, it's all good.
3: If in a month or two there is a prevalence of idiots recycling without asking (which I suggest there currently isn't, it's a small minority who do it), then add a button to the command console to start a concede vote which pings every player for a response. No response after 15 seconds = accept concede.
I honestly don't think we need to even go to step 3, but I for one will continue with 1 and 2 as I have been doing, and I suggest you lot do the same