It's called commander because he is trying to command you to victory. See my previous comments for why it is completely flawed to apply the same logic to a mechanic that will, absolutely, 100% of the time, lose you the game.
If the game is lost, seek the agreement of your team before ending it. Recycling without asking is rude, presumptuous, and potentially detrimental to many more people's gaming time than the 20s it would have taken you to ASK your team first.
Asking unresponsive people whether I can recycle or not to which I would get 1 or 2 people saying yes hardly is the majority of the team agreeing to it. Moreover, having 6 out of 12 agree to it still means some people are going to be unhappy.
I'd rather just leave the tactical assessment to the person who has been commanding the whole game as that person will best be able to establish whether or not the game is salvagable.
It's presumptuous and rude to think because you have a pulse that you some how know something the commander does not or that you should force half the team into a 20 minute rine turtle because you are a noob that likes last stands.
It's presumptuous and rude to think because you have a pulse that you some how know something the commander does not or that you should force half the team into a 20 minute rine turtle because you are a noob that likes last stands.
It's called commander because he is trying to command you to victory. See my previous comments for why it is completely flawed to apply the same logic to a mechanic that will, absolutely, 100% of the time, lose you the game.
If the game is lost, seek the agreement of your team before ending it. Recycling without asking is rude, presumptuous, and potentially detrimental to many more people's gaming time than the 20s it would have taken you to ASK your team first.
Asking unresponsive people whether I can recycle or not to which I would get 1 or 2 people saying yes hardly is the majority of the team agreeing to it. Moreover, having 6 out of 12 agree to it still means some people are going to be unhappy.
I'd rather just leave the tactical assessment to the person who has been commanding the whole game as that person will best be able to establish whether or not the game is salvagable.
It's presumptuous and rude to think because you have a pulse that you some how know something the commander does not or that you should force half the team into a 20 minute rine turtle because you are a noob that likes last stands.
What is this bullshit? Recycling has always been a part of NS because it is set up to play like an RTS. What the comm decides to recycle is fully up to him. Even when it comes to the whole base. There is a reason why he is called the commander.
I think that any attempt to program this troll tactic out of the game will likely result in more frustration for legitimate players than the very rare occurrence of a trollmander recycling both IPs.
I disagree, I dont see why we would allow 1 person to make a decision for the entire team and recycle.
Concede is put in place to ensure a majority want to end the game.
If your in the minority on your team and cant get a concede vote to work then you should either play it out (seeing as thats what everyone else wants to do) or leave the server.
Seriously I cant believe that people are arguing for this to be left in, considering we now have official way to end these long drawn out games (either f4 or vote concede).
You say "legitimate players"...what about us legitimate players who wanted to play out the game?
Why should a minority influence the game experience for the majority?
Sounds like some players people dont understand that not every game needs to be serious.
Some of us play for enjoyment, if thats what the majority of the server wants then thats what they should get.
Their is a reason that the concede vote is not set to say 10% of the players on a team...its to stop 1 or 2 trolls conceding the map for everyone.
Recycle still gives these people that option, get rid of recycle options.
Its only 1 team that can do it...and its most often done to end a game (prior to concede), now you see people conceding rather than recycling (atleast I do on teh aussie servers (though some people need to be told what to do).
You can't believe people don't support restrictions on marine recycle because you don't understand why they want it. To me, this isn't about troll commanders (very, very rare -- I've seen it happen in the single digits out of 1000+ hours played). Vote concede and surrender are irrelevant because this also is not about commanders single handedly ending the game. This is because there are, albeit very rare, circumstances where a commander would legitimately want to recycle something where these restrictions would inevitably get in the way.
The benefit from this is so tiny that it will likely be overshadowed by the annoyance of the feature. I'm not convinced UWE needs to put time into this, nor that it would actually be net beneficial.
Yay...so you want 1 person to be able to end a game...why the heck did UWE not them add teh concede button only to the comm view?
Oh wait...because they believe to concede is not a decision for 1 player, but rather the majority.
I cant believe I actually am in agreement with Savant...that I think indicates that this is more than just whether the marines can concede a game but whether 1 person should be able to end a game without his teams agreement.
Troll or 1337 player who believes the game is over...is the majority of the team does not exist then a recycle should not be able to happen.
Whether this is things not being able to be recycled if in same room as a comm chair or just removing the recycle option all together something has to change.
I am sick of having 1 person decide for everyone else that a game is over, this is a bad mechanic as it ONLY APPLIES TO MARINES.
Aliens can just as easily need to recycle a chamber to drop an RT..but cant. I dont see why marines should get this luxury if aliens dont.
We have F4 and Concede that are for both side to end game that are over...recycling a base is no longer needed and serves only to troll.
A comm doesn't feel like his marines are listening...simply recycles and ends the game...seen it happen and also heard the marines rage in teh RR.
There's really no reason to twist GORGEous' words around in the vain attempt at a valid rebuttal. There is no way for the recycle ability to be restricted enough to stop the commander from ending the game that won't affect recycle as a gameplay mechanic. Even if you were to stop the commander from recycling 2 IPs, 1 Resource Tower, the Armory and the Arms Lab he would still be able to recycle enough to take the Marine team out of the game for good. The only real solution to the problem is either to completely remove recycle from the game or give server admins the ability to disable on their server which would cripple and cause a loss for the Marine team in more cases than the commander recycling all your shit to "troll" you. Most commanders that recycle anyway do it because the game is over and idiots want to play grab ass in Marine Start with Grenade Launchers.
The fact that agree with Savant should clue you in to how wrong you actually are.
Sorry I did not twist Gorgeuos' words, he is saying that 1 person (ie the marine comm) should be able to decide a game is over.
Hello. Real GORGEous here. I never said, nor do I really believe, that 1 person should be able to decide a gamer is over. You didn't twist my words, you just flat out talked past them. I explicitly said that I don't care about it because it isn't a problem. It doesn't happen very often and any attempt to fix it will hurt the marine commander's ability to recycle in legitimate games.
I care more about maintaining the marine commander's ability than I do about fixing a 1 in 1000 troll.
So you care more about 1 person (the comm) than the other 11-23 players in a game and dont believe recycling is an issue, How have I overlooked this?
Sorry but we have more than 2 people playing this game.
The comm is just another player who happened to hop the chair.
They are not some massively smart person whom the rest of the server should bow to (become a server admin if you want to get people to do that).
A commander in no way needs to recycle a base/room with a comm chair in it, if you want to end the game hit the concede buttong and ask your team to do the same.
If that doesn't work it means your in the minority and everyone else wants to keep playing.
That is their right, you should not be able to destroy their game experience.
Its time to actually act like an adult and take into consideration opinions of people on the server other than your own.
If you dont like their decisions then go find another server and a different group of people, there is no reason to allow an egotistical person to recycle everything.
This is not how games should end as their is no consensus from teh players.
For the third time, I don't care about the commander recycling things to end games. You keep talking about this, but I'm not even contesting it. I don't personally think that it is right for a commander to recycle and end the game with vote concede in the game. I think games should be conceded with the vote concede option and not the commander recycling the IPs.
That said (please read it), I still think your/savant's idea to programming limitations on the recycle ability is harmful to the game. You'll break more things than you fix because what you're trying to fix is a borderline nonexistant problem.
Please read this post before you respond again.
So you agree people shouldn't be doing it....but believe doing nothing does less harm than adding restrictions that would eliminate it from being able to happen?
Hate to tell you this but most people do not like having a game ended on them, while concede votes can catch you by surprise you know that half your team has felt the game is over.
Not one person who is perhaps throwing a little tantrum because their strategy hasn't worked out the way they wanted and believe all is lost (though it may not be...might just require a change of strat).
Its not exactly hard to place a restriction on items not being able to be recycled if in teh same room as the comm chair (you could even say it has to be the chair the comm is in to allow for secondary bases to be saved (which leads to more res in marine economy and longer turtles as comms drop weapons and robo's..but thats a seperate issue)).
I think that your stand points rather apathetic...you apparently can recognise the problem, see a solution and then yet you dont want to try to fix the issue.
This is not the most complex issue to address in teh game, a lot like the requirement for both sides to have a comm. If you want to early game rush...then just hop out of hive once game starts...if you want to end the game prematurely then you need to convince your team....not the comm.
If UWE intended the comm/khamms to be the ones who can decide if a game is lost then they would have limited the concede button to the comm/khamm interface.
instead they added it to EVERYONE as they did not want 1 person to be deciding to end the game alone.
This is not some single player game...or even a 1v1 game...its a team game and as such you have to go with what the majority of your team wants.
As Roo has said back before the concede option was in there you would have a reason to be able to recycle, as this was the only way to end a game outside of 100% f4'ing.
Now we have concede, if half your team wants to end it...guess what...it ends. Right there and then...no flaffing about just end the game and start the next.
This is better than recycling ever was, further than that it either removes the need for it all together or creates a reason for it to only be able to be done outside of tech point rooms.
What is this bullshit? Recycling has always been a part of NS because it is set up to play like an RTS. What the comm decides to recycle is fully up to him. Even when it comes to the whole base. There is a reason why he is called the commander.
Your getting commander mixed up with the word dictator...there is a marked difference.
Asking unresponsive people whether I can recycle or not to which I would get 1 or 2 people saying yes hardly is the majority of the team agreeing to it. ... I'd rather just leave the tactical assessment to the person who has been commanding the whole game as that person will best be able to establish whether or not the game is salvagable.
What some people don't understand is that no one put the marine commander in charge of the GAME.
If a person wants to solely control the outcome of a game, go play a single-player game.
The difference is plain to see. If you compare this to chess, concede is like tipping over your king, while recycle is taking the board and flinging it across the room like a six-year-old.
The bottom line is that no one elected the person who decided to jump into the chair to be the 'server admin' for that game. No single person gets to abort a game. That's why concede was put into the game, to end this lame-ass recycling crap. Clearly the developers underestimated the maturity of some of the players, since we're on page 5 with a small group of people who still think this is acceptable behaviour.
This is a TEAM game. If anyone doesn't understand what the word 'team' means, please look it up.
Let's rename the commander to elected democratic official just so that mediocre players such as hakenspit and savant feel valued in the team.
It's called a commander for a reason, and there is nothing more annoying than those that didn't assume the responsibility to think that their opinion matters in the game.
It's called commander because he is trying to command you to victory. See my previous comments for why it is completely flawed to apply the same logic to a mechanic that will, absolutely, 100% of the time, lose you the game.
If the game is lost, seek the agreement of your team before ending it. Recycling without asking is rude, presumptuous, and potentially detrimental to many more people's gaming time than the 20s it would have taken you to ASK your team first.
The word 'commander' does not in any way imply that they are trying to lead you to anything at all, it just means that they issue commands, and implies you should follow them, as a command isn't really much of a command if nobody follows it.
That's how the word is used in almost all situations too, a commander is not a 'friendly suggester' or a 'idea proposer' or an 'option presenter'. He or she is a commander, they give commands, you follow, that is your only function in the relationship.
Hey, I'm the guy stuck in the comm chair watching the carnage...
You'll find the LOG OUT button in the top right corner of your screen in the commander interface.
If you "hop out of the chair" because you don't want to com anymore, the loss instantly becomes your fault.
Absolutely not. That's like saying if the comm gets disconnected that it's their fault.
Once the comm gets out of the chair they are just another player.
Absolutely yes, actually, if you take comm for a length of time it is assumed you are going to see it through to conclusion. If you jump out of the chair because you're bored the loss is just as much your fault as if you caused it. The team cannot function without leadership for any length of time, and it also cannot function without the trained-monkey aspect of commanding, which is to say the bit where you drop all the support items and buildings and tell all the NPCs where to go.
Transferring leadership generally takes a few minutes at least, that's a few minutes of no support if you decide to bugger off which is more than enough to lose the game. And furthermore, if you lose the game like that, you might waste five or ten minutes of everyone's time because they have to fight a stupid losing game.
Even if you can find a replacement, there is disruption in changing commander because it takes a while for the new comm to get up to speed on everything and figure out what the hell you were doing before you got out.
Basically stopping commanding for any reason whatsoever other than the end of the round is bad, and you're a bad commander if you do it with any regularity.
If the comm is the only guy that wanted to comm in the first place (often the case) I think he can decide when it's over so he can stop comm'ing tbh.
Yep.
My favourite are the guys who try to command from the ground.
"Get phase gates."
"Oh, get mines."
"Make sure you get weapons/armour upgrades."
"Are you researching shotguns?"
I usually tell them to shut up, and let me command.
I actually have a bit of a bad habit of doing that, though it's usually more because we're actually losing ground and it's ten minutes into the game and the commander still hasn't got weapons 1. I seem to spend a lot of games playing with bad commanders who... I don't know what they spend all their time doing but nothing tends to get done. Can't just be newness either because I had a great game with a first time comm a while ago, and he was a lot better.
I tend not to begrudge players for saying that they need something I haven't got, because they probably do need it and I might actually have forgotten it. Players on the ground can sometimes see what the team needs to even out combat better than the commander can. I also don't mind people contributing ideas or tactics for holding certain rooms, or asking for equipment to do it.
Though yes I do tend to be the whiny one when the comm is doing a terrible job. In fairness though I also don't generally tend to see anyone doing it with a half decent comm.
Asking unresponsive people whether I can recycle or not to which I would get 1 or 2 people saying yes hardly is the majority of the team agreeing to it. ... I'd rather just leave the tactical assessment to the person who has been commanding the whole game as that person will best be able to establish whether or not the game is salvagable.
What some people don't understand is that no one put the marine commander in charge of the GAME.
If a person wants to solely control the outcome of a game, go play a single-player game.
The difference is plain to see. If you compare this to chess, concede is like tipping over your king, while recycle is taking the board and flinging it across the room like a six-year-old.
No, recycling is like tipping over your king, concede is like asking the pawns what they think you should do.
NS2 is like playing chess with human pieces, and this thread is like the people playing the pawns complaining that they don't get consulted on strategy.
You may be a person, with all your person attributes outside of the game, but when you play the game as anything but the commander, the role you play is merely a piece on the board, and you accept that role when you go into the game because that is the nature of the game you are playing.
If you volunteer for human chess, don't be surprised when the person moving the pieces expects you to do nothing more than stand and move on instruction. If you don't like doing that, don't play human chess.
If the comm is the only guy that wanted to comm in the first place (often the case) I think he can decide when it's over so he can stop comm'ing tbh.
Yep.
My favourite are the guys who try to command from the ground.
"Get phase gates."
"Oh, get mines."
"Make sure you get weapons/armour upgrades."
"Are you researching shotguns?"
I usually tell them to shut up, and let me command.
I actually have a bit of a bad habit of doing that, though it's usually more because we're actually losing ground and it's ten minutes into the game and the commander still hasn't got weapons 1. I seem to spend a lot of games playing with bad commanders who... I don't know what they spend all their time doing but nothing tends to get done. Can't just be newness either because I had a great game with a first time comm a while ago, and he was a lot better.
I tend not to begrudge players for saying that they need something I haven't got, because they probably do need it and I might actually have forgotten it. Players on the ground can sometimes see what the team needs to even out combat better than the commander can. I also don't mind people contributing ideas or tactics for holding certain rooms, or asking for equipment to do it.
Though yes I do tend to be the whiny one when the comm is doing a terrible job. In fairness though I also don't generally tend to see anyone doing it with a half decent comm.
I've had people do it as soon as the game starts, after we've decided who's going to com.
They didn't want to, I didn't either, but because a game won't happen without a com, I jumped in the chair.
I straight up told the guy to "Shut up, let me do my job, you go do yours."
We won the round, only just though.
what if a requirement is set:
if marines are in the room where the com wants something recycled (com in chair counts as person in the room),
then one of those marine(s) must activate the recycling process (doesnt have to be long like building stuff up, just a quick use to start the normal recycling process)
that will leave base/rt overrun recycling alone, but address the issue where the com wants to recycle something in the last base owned
What is this bullshit? Recycling has always been a part of NS because it is set up to play like an RTS. What the comm decides to recycle is fully up to him. Even when it comes to the whole base. There is a reason why he is called the commander.
Your getting commander mixed up with the word dictator...there is a marked difference.
Nah. Just like in the military the commander will have to call the shots in a pub game for better or worse. Otherwise nothing gets done.
That's how it was in NS1 and I haven't seen any indication of NS2 breaking this tradition.
But a commander cant get his troops to do what they dont want to (that leads to something called mutiny...or a dictatorship).
This is not NS1, in NS1 there was no concede feature in the game (only 3rd party server mods provided this) so recycling was seen as the way of doing this. It had 1 issue though, only 1 of the 2 teams could do this.
So we now have a concede feature (which is 100x more like tipping over your king than recycling (which is akin to throwing the board across the room)) which both sides can do.
It requires atleast half of the players believing the game is lost and conceding...not 1 person who is seemingly about 1 min of a rage quit if the game does not end....and end NOW!
As we have this mechanic in there...we need to look at how to stop people rage-cycling.
Lets be honest if your team wants to keep fighting and you dont...then leave the server...f4...why screw up everyone elses game just because you believe its lost.
Just because you are in the chair you are not special, anyone can hop in the chair, you did not need to pass some test before you could log in. You where just the idiot that lumped with the job of trying to help your team win, your role is no more important than the rest of your team (as if they dont work with you winning will be impossible).
The commander does not need to be the smartest bloke on the field, new comms/khamms can be helped through to victory by experienced players.
I feel that recycling is an important ability for Marines and as such should remain unchanged. Rules on what can/can't be recycled will only be detrimental in most matches. Commanders will still be able to recycle enough that the game is essentially over even if they can't recycle everything but the restrictions are likely to affect legitimate strategies. Unfortunately it comes down to the Commanders themselves to do the right thing and keep a match going if a majority wish to keep playing. If a match is lost and you don't wish to continue, Hop out, Tell your team your doing so (and why) and give newer players the opportunity to command the final few minutes.
Even an unwinnable situation is a good learning experience for rookies in the Comm Chair and they won't have people moaning that they're terrible, shaking their confidence for future matches. Before I commanded a full match, i hopped in when commanders quit towards the end of a match, and it taught me so much! More than i could ever learn from 'Explore Mode' as most things are pre-built and plenty of res coming in. giving others the chance to learn from a poor match results in more effective commanders in the future. I'm not the best commander by any means, but at the moment, too few players are confident to command and as such i find myself having to hop in the chair when i'd rather be out in the field, especially as I don't have a working mic at the moment which is almost required as a commander.
I've been in matches where many players on my team have mic's but none of them have the experience or confidence to command...Give them the chance to learn in situations where, regardless of how good/bad they are, it makes no difference to the outcome of the match. In the future, they'll be more prepared to command and we'll have more mic'd up, effective commanders.
Worth playing a match for an extra 5-10 minutes once defeat is assured? I think so
I can't believe the attitude some posters here have towards their teammates.
NS2 is a special game in any way. It's competitive, it's compelling, it's difficult at the beginning, it's so much fun when you get the hang of it. On top of that, it's a unique game. I don't know any other game which is like NS1/2 in its way of mixing RTS and FPS. NS1 was a masterpiece in my books, NS2 is on a good way to become one.
Now, I believe that many pub players are REALLY new to that game. NS1 was no mainstream game (the best games usually aren't mainstream), it's therefore unknown to many (younger) players and NS2 is no mainstream game. Using mics, communication, playing as a team, knowing your game, knowing the different races, damage types and stuff like that - that's tough to know by any new player. I think it's really uncommon to use a mic in public gaming for tactical communication and stuff like that, in most online games its used for trolling/ranting/flaming and stuff like that.
What I want to say: there is no I in TEAM! and when better, experienced players/commanders don't care to communicate and do stuff like recycling without any decent explanation, it's no wonder that many players are in outrage about pub-gaming. and it's really frustrating for any player who wants to enjoy a simple pub game or who wants to learn - even after some people think the round to be decided.
btw: democracy != reaching a consensus. when 6 of 10 people vote concede, a minority of 4 might be disappointed by the outcome. but when 1 of 10 people recycles, the majority might have voted otherwise.
TL:DR (or how this is written)
be polite - recycle in competitive games, ask on pubs
If you guys are really that adamant about this I have an easy solution. Make a vote option appear if the comm is trying to recycle your only IP. There, done. Now implement it yourselves in a mod since you're being so vocal about it.
I on the other hand prefer giving the comm freedom to do as they please.
If you hop out of the chair for any reason beyond "They're eating our IPs/Power.", you get yelled at.
Not in my experience... I often jump out of the chair to kill skulks or build in base, especially early game (I tend to play on smaller servers and we have to be both expanding and pushing hives, not all building in base), but I always tell my team I'm doing this. If I've really had enough and don't want to comm any more (which is infrequent and only ever at the point I think the game is lost - ie when you would be recycling without asking), I hop out of the chair, and ask my team to vote concede (telling them how). I've never had anyone arguing with that course of action. I've seen plenty of cases of other people - not just me - getting annoyed with commanders who don't communicate with their team about ending the game (let alone those who don't communicate about anything. They're often the same people...).
You wouldn't tell your team to get to place X without giving them an idea of what you're doing/planning or what to expect when they get there. Likewise, it's only fair to keep them informed of the situation of the game when it's really gone down the pan. Frankly, if you think your fellow teammates don't deserve to know what's going on, then perhaps you shouldn't be commanding in the first place...
It's presumptuous and rude to think because you have a pulse that you some how know something the commander does not or that you should force half the team into a 20 minute rine turtle because you are a noob that likes last stands.
Are you simply not reading what I've written? Or are you stupid?
I am not saying you should play on until the bitter end. Sometimes, yes the game is lost and in all likelihood, everyone on that server that day would like to move onto the next game (although you don't KNOW this in a pub).
I'm saying you should either:
A) ask your teammates to vote concede (try it, I have found so far that they ALWAYS DO) - PREFERABLE OPTION: MOST EFFICIENT AND LEAST ANNOYING TO OTHER PEOPLE
or
ask your teammates if they OBJECT to you recycling.
Not if they would like you pretty please... Do they object if you recycle the IPs? Ask again: "Last chance, I'm going to recycle, object now if you want to carry on playing" - I guarantee you that the stupendously large majority of people will have no problems with it. "Sure, go ahead and recycle, this one's done" is a common response. This comes down to respect for other players. You're still reaching your decision: the game is lost, let's end it, but you're doing it in a way that doesn't antagonise people.
I still prefer option A, as it ends the game quicker: it's far more efficient than recycling, and it also helps people to feel involved in the decision better. Unlike recycling the IPs, you don't have to wait for the aliens to finish the game off (there's always someone who will hide in a vent so the aliens have to kill the comm chair, even if you can persuade most people to jump in the lava in refinery). Your efficiency argument to recycling is bullshit.
In no way am I saying you as commander do not know better than your team what's going on, or that you are making the wrong call. It's HOW YOU GO ABOUT IT. Show some respect for other people rather than being a selfish cretin.
Finally: I don't agree that recycling should be removed or changed in any way. It gets more legitimate use than end-game idiots by a LONG way, and removing recycling would cause far more harm than good. Education about how to behave is the way forward. I am trying to do that here, but people keep misreading what I'm writing, or simply don't agree that they shouldn't deliberately annoy their fellow gamers in this small community.
Education about how to behave is the way forward. I am trying to do that here, but people keep misreading what I'm writing, or simply don't agree that they shouldn't deliberately annoy their fellow gamers in this small community.
This right here is key. Sure it gets legitimate use, and yes the legitimate use is important. The problem is too many people get on a power trip once they get in the com chair. The feel that their actions are sacrosanct. They forget that those marines running around are people too and have as much say in how their game is ended as the commander. If we cannot get commanders to respect the other people in the server, then something else has to be done.
DC_DarklingJoin Date: 2003-07-10Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver
Lets be realistic here folk.
Most people will not react when you ask them to give permission to recycle. The majority of the folk who do give feedback throughout the match are the more experienced players, and generally have conceited well before a turtle.
Most who turtle are the players who do not answer the comm or relate infield info. That is likely how you got to a turtle/recycle in the first place.
Furthermore noone will ever agree. If you have 12 players on your team.. Do all want to recycle? Half? Is the opinion of the folk who want to recycle mean less then the ones who do not want to?
That IS why you have a commander. To command, and issue orders. Influence your comm by giving feedback throughout the match.
A commander sort of IS like a dictator. Came in power one way or another, makes all the desisions, has choice over his people's life or death.. and can only forcibly be removed, unless he/she agrees.
This topic can go on for hours and hours, pages long.. we shall never agree. It will keep going until it has derailed beyond anything but a repeat of the same points every 5 posts.
Lets just agree to disagree and move on?
It's presumptuous and rude to think because you have a pulse that you some how know something the commander does not or that you should force half the team into a 20 minute rine turtle because you are a noob that likes last stands.
Are you simply not reading what I've written? Or are you stupid?
I am not saying you should play on until the bitter end. Sometimes, yes the game is lost and in all likelihood, everyone on that server that day would like to move onto the next game (although you don't KNOW this in a pub).
I'm saying you should either:
A) ask your teammates to vote concede (try it, I have found so far that they ALWAYS DO) - PREFERABLE OPTION: MOST EFFICIENT AND LEAST ANNOYING TO OTHER PEOPLE
or
ask your teammates if they OBJECT to you recycling.
Not if they would like you pretty please... Do they object if you recycle the IPs? Ask again: "Last chance, I'm going to recycle, object now if you want to carry on playing" - I guarantee you that the stupendously large majority of people will have no problems with it. "Sure, go ahead and recycle, this one's done" is a common response. This comes down to respect for other players. You're still reaching your decision: the game is lost, let's end it, but you're doing it in a way that doesn't antagonise people.
I still prefer option A, as it ends the game quicker: it's far more efficient than recycling, and it also helps people to feel involved in the decision better. Unlike recycling the IPs, you don't have to wait for the aliens to finish the game off (there's always someone who will hide in a vent so the aliens have to kill the comm chair, even if you can persuade most people to jump in the lava in refinery). Your efficiency argument to recycling is bullshit.
In no way am I saying you as commander do not know better than your team what's going on, or that you are making the wrong call. It's HOW YOU GO ABOUT IT. Show some respect for other people rather than being a selfish cretin.
Finally: I don't agree that recycling should be removed or changed in any way. It gets more legitimate use than end-game idiots by a LONG way, and removing recycling would cause far more harm than good. Education about how to behave is the way forward. I am trying to do that here, but people keep misreading what I'm writing, or simply don't agree that they shouldn't deliberately annoy their fellow gamers in this small community.
This++
If it's over tell the team to concede. If they just don't concede (and say nothing) and the game keeps on turtleing then ask if they object to recycling the base. If no one speaks up to that then they clearly don't care that much, go ahead and recycle.
I've found that quite often you'll have 2/3 people who just don't seem to understand the games finished and they stop a concede vote going through. But when you suggest recycling the rest of the team all go "YES! END IT!".
Base recycling really doesn’t happen anymore it’s more over a single structure that gets recycled rather than a whole base. By the time it gets to the point of recycling a whole base marines have already conceded.
Base recycling really doesn’t happen anymore it’s more over a single structure that gets recycled rather than a whole base. By the time it gets to the point of recycling a whole base marines have already conceded.
This is true. It's what occurs when the concede vote doesn't go through and the Comm takes it into his/her own hands to finish a match that's the issue. This thread certainly blows it out of proportion though, as it's a very rare occurrence now. There seems to be 3 camps who have strong opinions on the matter;
1. Those who think Commanders are right to recycle everything and nothing needs to change
2. Those who think Commanders are wrong to recycle everything and the option needs to be removed or restricted
3. Those who think Commanders are wrong to recycle everything but the recycle option is fine as it is.
I'm in the 3rd camp as i believe it's a very rare issue but is a matter of respect to other players in the server to not end a game without the consent of the majority.
"The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one" - Spock
No one here is presenting any compelling reason why changes shouldn't be made to prevent this behavior. All I see is elitism along the lines of, "I am the commander and I have decided that it's time for us to lose, and if my team is too stupid to know that I'll make the call for them." If that was the design intent, you'd have a button to concede immediately, not an option to vote. Those last few minutes of a game can get really hectic and silly, and I have fun playing them, win or lose. The number of failed votes to concede I've seen leads me to believe I'm not alone.
If it turns into an e-peen stroking camping trip, I'm free to leave and find a new server, or vote to concede, just like you. If you've already decided that the game is over, you don't lose anything by leaving. Why would you want to stay in a game you believe you've lost already, just to impose your will on the other players on your team?
Much of what is in this thread is now out of date. IMO the 10 minute concede delay is a problem now - I've had a couple of games so far (admittedly out of many), where one team just simply dominated from the outset and the other couldn't concede, even though they were being farmed (be that egg lock or just unable to move 20m from base before getting nommed by waiting aliens.
When a team that has already won in the very early game *doesn't* finish the round by eating the IPs/comm chair or shooting the hive down, it usually empties a server. To my mind, this is precisely the main bonus of a concede feature. I haven't seen any games conceded (by whatever means) prematurely, if this was the concern about having a 5 minute timer on concede, to dissuade teams from just calling GG after the first failed encounter.
Personally, I'd like to see the concede timer reduced to somewhere in the 3-5 minute range. 10 is just too long for those real games that *are* lost within that time. Oh, and the main thing I'd like to see added is the ability to vote concede when dead, or perhaps while 'waiting to spawn'; when aliens are egglocked, they can't often even vote to concede before they're killed. In this case, their only option is to F4 (assuming the marines aren't making an attempt to kill the hive, which I have seen several times), and F4 is one of the things that vote concede is designed to avoid!!
Oh, and the main thing I'd like to see added is the ability to vote concede when dead, or perhaps while 'waiting to spawn'; when aliens are egglocked, they can't often even vote to concede before they're killed. In this case, their only option is to F4 (assuming the marines aren't making an attempt to kill the hive, which I have seen several times), and F4 is one of the things that vote concede is designed to avoid!!
Comments
Asking unresponsive people whether I can recycle or not to which I would get 1 or 2 people saying yes hardly is the majority of the team agreeing to it. Moreover, having 6 out of 12 agree to it still means some people are going to be unhappy.
I'd rather just leave the tactical assessment to the person who has been commanding the whole game as that person will best be able to establish whether or not the game is salvagable.
It's presumptuous and rude to think because you have a pulse that you some how know something the commander does not or that you should force half the team into a 20 minute rine turtle because you are a noob that likes last stands.
Scatter we be bros now.
Very well summed up,
You can close the thread now mods.
Hate to tell you this but most people do not like having a game ended on them, while concede votes can catch you by surprise you know that half your team has felt the game is over.
Not one person who is perhaps throwing a little tantrum because their strategy hasn't worked out the way they wanted and believe all is lost (though it may not be...might just require a change of strat).
Its not exactly hard to place a restriction on items not being able to be recycled if in teh same room as the comm chair (you could even say it has to be the chair the comm is in to allow for secondary bases to be saved (which leads to more res in marine economy and longer turtles as comms drop weapons and robo's..but thats a seperate issue)).
I think that your stand points rather apathetic...you apparently can recognise the problem, see a solution and then yet you dont want to try to fix the issue.
This is not the most complex issue to address in teh game, a lot like the requirement for both sides to have a comm. If you want to early game rush...then just hop out of hive once game starts...if you want to end the game prematurely then you need to convince your team....not the comm.
If UWE intended the comm/khamms to be the ones who can decide if a game is lost then they would have limited the concede button to the comm/khamm interface.
instead they added it to EVERYONE as they did not want 1 person to be deciding to end the game alone.
This is not some single player game...or even a 1v1 game...its a team game and as such you have to go with what the majority of your team wants.
As Roo has said back before the concede option was in there you would have a reason to be able to recycle, as this was the only way to end a game outside of 100% f4'ing.
Now we have concede, if half your team wants to end it...guess what...it ends. Right there and then...no flaffing about just end the game and start the next.
This is better than recycling ever was, further than that it either removes the need for it all together or creates a reason for it to only be able to be done outside of tech point rooms.
Your getting commander mixed up with the word dictator...there is a marked difference.
If a person wants to solely control the outcome of a game, go play a single-player game.
The difference is plain to see. If you compare this to chess, concede is like tipping over your king, while recycle is taking the board and flinging it across the room like a six-year-old.
The bottom line is that no one elected the person who decided to jump into the chair to be the 'server admin' for that game. No single person gets to abort a game. That's why concede was put into the game, to end this lame-ass recycling crap. Clearly the developers underestimated the maturity of some of the players, since we're on page 5 with a small group of people who still think this is acceptable behaviour.
This is a TEAM game. If anyone doesn't understand what the word 'team' means, please look it up.
Nah. Just like in the military the commander will have to call the shots in a pub game for better or worse. Otherwise nothing gets done.
That's how it was in NS1 and I haven't seen any indication of NS2 breaking this tradition.
The word 'commander' does not in any way imply that they are trying to lead you to anything at all, it just means that they issue commands, and implies you should follow them, as a command isn't really much of a command if nobody follows it.
That's how the word is used in almost all situations too, a commander is not a 'friendly suggester' or a 'idea proposer' or an 'option presenter'. He or she is a commander, they give commands, you follow, that is your only function in the relationship.
Absolutely yes, actually, if you take comm for a length of time it is assumed you are going to see it through to conclusion. If you jump out of the chair because you're bored the loss is just as much your fault as if you caused it. The team cannot function without leadership for any length of time, and it also cannot function without the trained-monkey aspect of commanding, which is to say the bit where you drop all the support items and buildings and tell all the NPCs where to go.
Transferring leadership generally takes a few minutes at least, that's a few minutes of no support if you decide to bugger off which is more than enough to lose the game. And furthermore, if you lose the game like that, you might waste five or ten minutes of everyone's time because they have to fight a stupid losing game.
Even if you can find a replacement, there is disruption in changing commander because it takes a while for the new comm to get up to speed on everything and figure out what the hell you were doing before you got out.
Basically stopping commanding for any reason whatsoever other than the end of the round is bad, and you're a bad commander if you do it with any regularity.
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I actually have a bit of a bad habit of doing that, though it's usually more because we're actually losing ground and it's ten minutes into the game and the commander still hasn't got weapons 1. I seem to spend a lot of games playing with bad commanders who... I don't know what they spend all their time doing but nothing tends to get done. Can't just be newness either because I had a great game with a first time comm a while ago, and he was a lot better.
I tend not to begrudge players for saying that they need something I haven't got, because they probably do need it and I might actually have forgotten it. Players on the ground can sometimes see what the team needs to even out combat better than the commander can. I also don't mind people contributing ideas or tactics for holding certain rooms, or asking for equipment to do it.
Though yes I do tend to be the whiny one when the comm is doing a terrible job. In fairness though I also don't generally tend to see anyone doing it with a half decent comm.
No, recycling is like tipping over your king, concede is like asking the pawns what they think you should do.
NS2 is like playing chess with human pieces, and this thread is like the people playing the pawns complaining that they don't get consulted on strategy.
You may be a person, with all your person attributes outside of the game, but when you play the game as anything but the commander, the role you play is merely a piece on the board, and you accept that role when you go into the game because that is the nature of the game you are playing.
If you volunteer for human chess, don't be surprised when the person moving the pieces expects you to do nothing more than stand and move on instruction. If you don't like doing that, don't play human chess.
I've had people do it as soon as the game starts, after we've decided who's going to com.
They didn't want to, I didn't either, but because a game won't happen without a com, I jumped in the chair.
I straight up told the guy to "Shut up, let me do my job, you go do yours."
We won the round, only just though.
if marines are in the room where the com wants something recycled (com in chair counts as person in the room),
then one of those marine(s) must activate the recycling process (doesnt have to be long like building stuff up, just a quick use to start the normal recycling process)
that will leave base/rt overrun recycling alone, but address the issue where the com wants to recycle something in the last base owned
This is not NS1, in NS1 there was no concede feature in the game (only 3rd party server mods provided this) so recycling was seen as the way of doing this. It had 1 issue though, only 1 of the 2 teams could do this.
So we now have a concede feature (which is 100x more like tipping over your king than recycling (which is akin to throwing the board across the room)) which both sides can do.
It requires atleast half of the players believing the game is lost and conceding...not 1 person who is seemingly about 1 min of a rage quit if the game does not end....and end NOW!
As we have this mechanic in there...we need to look at how to stop people rage-cycling.
Lets be honest if your team wants to keep fighting and you dont...then leave the server...f4...why screw up everyone elses game just because you believe its lost.
Just because you are in the chair you are not special, anyone can hop in the chair, you did not need to pass some test before you could log in. You where just the idiot that lumped with the job of trying to help your team win, your role is no more important than the rest of your team (as if they dont work with you winning will be impossible).
The commander does not need to be the smartest bloke on the field, new comms/khamms can be helped through to victory by experienced players.
Recycling base without the consent of the team -> BAN
No Admin to ban? -> FLAME teh n00bz
both works.
Even an unwinnable situation is a good learning experience for rookies in the Comm Chair and they won't have people moaning that they're terrible, shaking their confidence for future matches. Before I commanded a full match, i hopped in when commanders quit towards the end of a match, and it taught me so much! More than i could ever learn from 'Explore Mode' as most things are pre-built and plenty of res coming in. giving others the chance to learn from a poor match results in more effective commanders in the future. I'm not the best commander by any means, but at the moment, too few players are confident to command and as such i find myself having to hop in the chair when i'd rather be out in the field, especially as I don't have a working mic at the moment which is almost required as a commander.
I've been in matches where many players on my team have mic's but none of them have the experience or confidence to command...Give them the chance to learn in situations where, regardless of how good/bad they are, it makes no difference to the outcome of the match. In the future, they'll be more prepared to command and we'll have more mic'd up, effective commanders.
Worth playing a match for an extra 5-10 minutes once defeat is assured? I think so
NS2 is a special game in any way. It's competitive, it's compelling, it's difficult at the beginning, it's so much fun when you get the hang of it. On top of that, it's a unique game. I don't know any other game which is like NS1/2 in its way of mixing RTS and FPS. NS1 was a masterpiece in my books, NS2 is on a good way to become one.
Now, I believe that many pub players are REALLY new to that game. NS1 was no mainstream game (the best games usually aren't mainstream), it's therefore unknown to many (younger) players and NS2 is no mainstream game. Using mics, communication, playing as a team, knowing your game, knowing the different races, damage types and stuff like that - that's tough to know by any new player. I think it's really uncommon to use a mic in public gaming for tactical communication and stuff like that, in most online games its used for trolling/ranting/flaming and stuff like that.
What I want to say: there is no I in TEAM! and when better, experienced players/commanders don't care to communicate and do stuff like recycling without any decent explanation, it's no wonder that many players are in outrage about pub-gaming. and it's really frustrating for any player who wants to enjoy a simple pub game or who wants to learn - even after some people think the round to be decided.
btw: democracy != reaching a consensus. when 6 of 10 people vote concede, a minority of 4 might be disappointed by the outcome. but when 1 of 10 people recycles, the majority might have voted otherwise.
TL:DR (or how this is written)
be polite - recycle in competitive games, ask on pubs
I on the other hand prefer giving the comm freedom to do as they please.
Not in my experience... I often jump out of the chair to kill skulks or build in base, especially early game (I tend to play on smaller servers and we have to be both expanding and pushing hives, not all building in base), but I always tell my team I'm doing this. If I've really had enough and don't want to comm any more (which is infrequent and only ever at the point I think the game is lost - ie when you would be recycling without asking), I hop out of the chair, and ask my team to vote concede (telling them how). I've never had anyone arguing with that course of action. I've seen plenty of cases of other people - not just me - getting annoyed with commanders who don't communicate with their team about ending the game (let alone those who don't communicate about anything. They're often the same people...).
You wouldn't tell your team to get to place X without giving them an idea of what you're doing/planning or what to expect when they get there. Likewise, it's only fair to keep them informed of the situation of the game when it's really gone down the pan. Frankly, if you think your fellow teammates don't deserve to know what's going on, then perhaps you shouldn't be commanding in the first place...
Are you simply not reading what I've written? Or are you stupid?
I am not saying you should play on until the bitter end. Sometimes, yes the game is lost and in all likelihood, everyone on that server that day would like to move onto the next game (although you don't KNOW this in a pub).
I'm saying you should either:
A) ask your teammates to vote concede (try it, I have found so far that they ALWAYS DO) - PREFERABLE OPTION: MOST EFFICIENT AND LEAST ANNOYING TO OTHER PEOPLE
or
Not if they would like you pretty please... Do they object if you recycle the IPs? Ask again: "Last chance, I'm going to recycle, object now if you want to carry on playing" - I guarantee you that the stupendously large majority of people will have no problems with it. "Sure, go ahead and recycle, this one's done" is a common response. This comes down to respect for other players. You're still reaching your decision: the game is lost, let's end it, but you're doing it in a way that doesn't antagonise people.
I still prefer option A, as it ends the game quicker: it's far more efficient than recycling, and it also helps people to feel involved in the decision better. Unlike recycling the IPs, you don't have to wait for the aliens to finish the game off (there's always someone who will hide in a vent so the aliens have to kill the comm chair, even if you can persuade most people to jump in the lava in refinery). Your efficiency argument to recycling is bullshit.
In no way am I saying you as commander do not know better than your team what's going on, or that you are making the wrong call. It's HOW YOU GO ABOUT IT. Show some respect for other people rather than being a selfish cretin.
Finally: I don't agree that recycling should be removed or changed in any way. It gets more legitimate use than end-game idiots by a LONG way, and removing recycling would cause far more harm than good. Education about how to behave is the way forward. I am trying to do that here, but people keep misreading what I'm writing, or simply don't agree that they shouldn't deliberately annoy their fellow gamers in this small community.
This right here is key. Sure it gets legitimate use, and yes the legitimate use is important. The problem is too many people get on a power trip once they get in the com chair. The feel that their actions are sacrosanct. They forget that those marines running around are people too and have as much say in how their game is ended as the commander. If we cannot get commanders to respect the other people in the server, then something else has to be done.
Most people will not react when you ask them to give permission to recycle. The majority of the folk who do give feedback throughout the match are the more experienced players, and generally have conceited well before a turtle.
Most who turtle are the players who do not answer the comm or relate infield info. That is likely how you got to a turtle/recycle in the first place.
Furthermore noone will ever agree. If you have 12 players on your team.. Do all want to recycle? Half? Is the opinion of the folk who want to recycle mean less then the ones who do not want to?
That IS why you have a commander. To command, and issue orders. Influence your comm by giving feedback throughout the match.
A commander sort of IS like a dictator. Came in power one way or another, makes all the desisions, has choice over his people's life or death.. and can only forcibly be removed, unless he/she agrees.
This topic can go on for hours and hours, pages long.. we shall never agree. It will keep going until it has derailed beyond anything but a repeat of the same points every 5 posts.
Lets just agree to disagree and move on?
This++
If it's over tell the team to concede. If they just don't concede (and say nothing) and the game keeps on turtleing then ask if they object to recycling the base. If no one speaks up to that then they clearly don't care that much, go ahead and recycle.
I've found that quite often you'll have 2/3 people who just don't seem to understand the games finished and they stop a concede vote going through. But when you suggest recycling the rest of the team all go "YES! END IT!".
This is true. It's what occurs when the concede vote doesn't go through and the Comm takes it into his/her own hands to finish a match that's the issue. This thread certainly blows it out of proportion though, as it's a very rare occurrence now. There seems to be 3 camps who have strong opinions on the matter;
1. Those who think Commanders are right to recycle everything and nothing needs to change
2. Those who think Commanders are wrong to recycle everything and the option needs to be removed or restricted
3. Those who think Commanders are wrong to recycle everything but the recycle option is fine as it is.
I'm in the 3rd camp as i believe it's a very rare issue but is a matter of respect to other players in the server to not end a game without the consent of the majority.
"The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one" - Spock
If it turns into an e-peen stroking camping trip, I'm free to leave and find a new server, or vote to concede, just like you. If you've already decided that the game is over, you don't lose anything by leaving. Why would you want to stay in a game you believe you've lost already, just to impose your will on the other players on your team?
When a team that has already won in the very early game *doesn't* finish the round by eating the IPs/comm chair or shooting the hive down, it usually empties a server. To my mind, this is precisely the main bonus of a concede feature. I haven't seen any games conceded (by whatever means) prematurely, if this was the concern about having a 5 minute timer on concede, to dissuade teams from just calling GG after the first failed encounter.
Personally, I'd like to see the concede timer reduced to somewhere in the 3-5 minute range. 10 is just too long for those real games that *are* lost within that time. Oh, and the main thing I'd like to see added is the ability to vote concede when dead, or perhaps while 'waiting to spawn'; when aliens are egglocked, they can't often even vote to concede before they're killed. In this case, their only option is to F4 (assuming the marines aren't making an attempt to kill the hive, which I have seen several times), and F4 is one of the things that vote concede is designed to avoid!!
Great point!