I still don't see why anyone cares about a 40/60 win
rate disparity. That seems incredibly reasonable for this game.
Really the game just needs to work on better, more enjoyable gameplay mechanics and just maintain balance roughly at this level. If it suddenly became 50/50 tomorrow no one would have any more fun than they are at this moment.
I would play more if the game had a 50/50 balance. Right now I don't play because I figure if I'm not alien I'm more than likely gonna lose. I don't want to spend the hour or so i have free to waste on 3 loses and maybe a win
you should not assume that game developers dont play games, or their own games. actually for a lot of them (can speak only for myself here though) was one of the main reason to develop games because we like playing them so much. take for example dux, he played in one of the top teams for ns1 and he made docking for ns2. but i guess you are thinking about the programmers here, who have a weird way of mathematical and algorithmic thinking and are not able to see their games as a whole.
this can definitely be true for some, but i dont like this kind of generalization.
yeah but flayra was infamously bad at his own game
Well I think it says a lot about the game that it is significantly more fun losing on marines than it is winning on aliens.
It may not be necessary to be able to perform certain game mechanics to understand them, but it is the easiest way to confirm that person actually does understand them and their consequences. Like I can't say with any confidence that any of the ns2 dev's understand / understood why bunnyhopping is superior to walljump (except dux i guess, but he makes maps so pfft). I can say with confidence they don't seem to like it, but that's it.
And what good does that do anyone.
uh, thats another assumption. i have way more insight on this topic than you might think. i enjoyed the way it worked in most half life mods and played when i was younger quite often 7 hours a day, but the decision "bhop or no bhop" is not easier because of that. but lets not turn this thread into another bhop thread ;D
When a population of games achieves a win loss ratio of 50/50, then the probability of a marine or alien win for a randomly sampled game is always 50%. That's not a statistic. It is a parameter. That is an extremely important distinction. It is balanced. Within that balanced game, there may be over-utilised, boring, underutilised, or lame game-play elements.
These are two separate factors. One is the achievement of equal probability of victory between factions. The other is desired variation in gameplay outcomes. Stating the factual occurence of the former does not exclude the latter. Opening a discussion of achieving desired gameplay outcomes must stop being started with the phrase 'The probability of a marine or alien win is 50%, but the game is not balanced.'
In regard to my bolded and underlined quote above, I'm not sure which posters are saying "the teams have a 50/50 win rate probability, but the game isn't balanced.' I haven't seen that post... ever.
What I do see is "Aliens win 70% of the time" and then very well thought out posts that underline why the aliens have such an advantage. I was discouraged to see you simply address statistical semantics in the first line of my reply rather than the true problem, which I outlined shortly after.
To be honest, if the focus is on desired outcomes I don't even see the relevance of stating probable win rates, especially when you're ready to so easily dismiss them. This reminds me of late game Zerg vs Protoss in SC2. It boils down to incredibly predictable and boring broodlord/infestor vs mothership/archon gameplay every time. Even if that was 100% balanced the 'desired outcome' is so bad that it should be fixed. I feel we're there with NS2, right now.
I don't play competitively and I probably don't even know what I'm talking about, but when I play on a public server I can feel that something is off. Something isn't quite right with the balance. Small changes aren't going to fix that. You've got experienced players posting their (great) insights on why NS2's 'desired outcomes' are far less than ideal and I just hope that UWE is willing to consider their opinions.
I don't care about probable win rates (which are still way off in favor of aliens). I care about having a dynamic, interesting, and strategic game. I'm not sure we're there yet.
I think so far UWE have done a good job with the balance changes, but I can't seem to get excited for the (alleged) future changes. Marines could REALLY use a long range hitscan weapon, so I was excited for the railgun. But once I found out railguns were for exos I was immediately bummed. And frankly, I'd enjoy marines a lot more if exos were completely removed, although I'm guessing they're a huge draw for the "new player" demo. I also think removing exos would probably boost the marine win %, if only because so many bad marine comms are going straight to exo (or are pressured to do so) which tends to be a high risk, low chance of victory, mediocre reward strategy. And I don't see the strat going away on pub servers.
I think so far UWE have done a good job with the balance changes, but I can't seem to get excited for the (alleged) future changes. Marines could REALLY use a long range hitscan weapon, so I was excited for the railgun.
Mind if I ask what they need this long range hitscan weapon for?
To make gorges and lurks think twice in the mid-game/late-game about downing structures long range by themselves (and the annoying long range sniping in general with no real counter as a marine). I envision it similar to the GL in cost, tech, etc. I've been a hitscan heavy gamer for most of my life, so it's just a personal preference. Lots of situations the pistol just isn't doing it for me. Maybe a heavy pistol upgrade is a better answer than a full fledged Q3-style "railgun", but they would serve the same purpose in my eyes.
@Sewlek
Just for the record, I think you're doing a great job and you're one of the few that I trust to think "our way" on a job. I know dux very well and would trust him, too, but he doesn't have any input so meh. I don't think my generalisation is far enough and I definitely don't think it's far off when it comes to overall game direction.
Well I think it says a lot about the game that it is significantly more fun losing on marines than it is winning on aliens.
It may not be necessary to be able to perform certain game mechanics to understand them, but it is the easiest way to confirm that person actually does understand them and their consequences. Like I can't say with any confidence that any of the ns2 dev's understand / understood why bunnyhopping is superior to walljump (except dux i guess, but he makes maps so pfft). I can say with confidence they don't seem to like it, but that's it.
And what good does that do anyone.
uh, thats another assumption. i have way more insight on this topic than you might think. i enjoyed the way it worked in most half life mods and played when i was younger quite often 7 hours a day, but the decision "bhop or no bhop" is not easier because of that. but lets not turn this thread into another bhop thread ;D
I think once again comes down to what you're showing to the outside as a company. For example in wallhop's case you've been bouncing back and forth with the implementation without any visible direction.
In such situations unless you start talking about things, people are going to have to start assuming things. If there's a deep understanding of an issue and its solution, you have to show it somewhere here and there.
Obviously the best way to demonstrate such would be to make the game work in awesome ways, but even taking an hour once a month to write something more informative and in depth than "It's not there yet" and "We are working on it / It's on our to-do list" would be a damn good start.
not all 'competitive' games are necessarily high-skill games
marines are so dependent on good aim, and just because some people form a team and play in a tournament doesn't make them top-level aimers
a lot of that is the engine performance. if someone is legitimately talented at aiming, they should probably be playing a different game
A frequent refrain treated with almost pseudo-intellectual reverence on this forum is 'a 50/50 win loss ratio is not necessarily balanced.' This phrase is used to justify the injection of an often valid qualitative input, such as 'Phase Gates are over-utilised' into the balance question. While that qualitative input is valid, the former statement is not.
When a population of games achieves a win loss ratio of 50/50, then the probability of a marine or alien win for a randomly sampled game is always 50%. That's not a statistic. It is a parameter. That is an extremely important distinction. It is balanced. Within that balanced game, there may be over-utilised, boring, underutilised, or lame game-play elements.
People don't play aggregate of games, they play individual games. In particular they play at different player count and skill levels, so what really matters is the probability of winning given the player count and the skill level (and possibly other variables). You can have completely unbalanced individual games and still get a 50% aggregate win-rate by marginalizing away the relevant variables.
Defining balance as the win-rate only seems needlessly restrictive, I think nobody would call the game balanced if for example one of the alien tech path was overwhelmingly better than the two others.
Balance means equal weight and apply to about anything in the game, restricting the concept to the win-rate only doesn't seem to be a very useful, intuitive or fruitful redefinition of the idea.
A frequent refrain treated with almost pseudo-intellectual reverence on this forum is 'a 50/50 win loss ratio is not necessarily balanced.' This phrase is used to justify the injection of an often valid qualitative input, such as 'Phase Gates are over-utilised' into the balance question. While that qualitative input is valid, the former statement is not.
When a population of games achieves a win loss ratio of 50/50, then the probability of a marine or alien win for a randomly sampled game is always 50%. That's not a statistic. It is a parameter. That is an extremely important distinction. It is balanced. Within that balanced game, there may be over-utilised, boring, underutilised, or lame game-play elements.
I think the point being made is that overall balance is not the same as internal balance.
Internal balance is almost never achieved in NS2, or NS1 for that matter, in the sense that any given fight is going to generally be in someone's favor or the other, often wildly so. It is also the case that many weapons or lifeforms are, arguably, excessively potent against other weapons or lifeforms, meaning a lot of the time, combat is perceived as 'unfair'.
You could flip a coin at the start of the game to give one team a million res, that would result in a 50/50 win rate but none of the games played would be 'balanced' in any meaningful sense. An extreme example yes, but it demonstrates the issue.
I think the balance would be even more in the aliens favour if most good players would play aliens as often as marines. I, as a NS1 vet, see myself winning as alien so easily even though I am a really bad alien player. The only way to get anything out of the game is going marine, rack up scores of 10-1 and still lose the round.
This is part of the reason why I would like to have a system tracking and showing player experience, so you can make vaguely fair teams.
So I took 4 days off of playing this game. I decided my attitude sucking was defeating the purpose of playing. So I gave myself this time off to cool off.
Played this morning. Aliens won 4 games in a row. 79% ratio.
So I took 4 days off of playing this game. I decided my attitude sucking was defeating the purpose of playing. So I gave myself this time off to cool off.
Played this morning. Aliens won 4 games in a row. 79% ratio.
So I took 4 days off of playing this game. I decided my attitude sucking was defeating the purpose of playing. So I gave myself this time off to cool off.
Played this morning. Aliens won 4 games in a row. 79% ratio.
THIS GAME IS NOW UNINSTALLED.
There. I feel better now.
I did that a while ago during 237, came back a few days after 239. Yes aliens still win a lot, and yes when marines win it's usually a stomp, but I've found some other guys all about my skill level and playing some games with them is a lot more fun. Aliens normally win those games but marines always put up one hell of a fight and it's a lot more fun playing with people at your level, it's not too easy that you feel your not getting better, but it's not so hard that you just get pwned on spawn.
Another thing we keep trying is going aliens and playing an "interesting" game. Trying to play with different strats such as rushing for xenocide, or going regen first. (N.B This is something pro players need to start doing when they out-play an entire server, put some arbitrary restrictions on their play style).
So yeh, play with friends. Even if you lose you'll have a lot more fun.
I did that a while ago during 237, came back a few days after 239. Yes aliens still win a lot, and yes when marines win it's usually a stomp, but I've found some other guys all about my skill level and playing some games with them is a lot more fun. Aliens normally win those games but marines always put up one hell of a fight and it's a lot more fun playing with people at your level, it's not too easy that you feel your not getting better, but it's not so hard that you just get pwned on spawn.
Another thing we keep trying is going aliens and playing an "interesting" game. Trying to play with different strats such as rushing for xenocide, or going regen first. (N.B This is something pro players need to start doing when they out-play an entire server, put some arbitrary restrictions on their play style).
So yeh, play with friends. Even if you lose you'll have a lot more fun.
I just created a post that that indirectly agrees with you said. If you can find friends or a clan and you can really work together as a team, as marines you will win more. It may be close to 50/50. But I don't have any friends that play this. Early on, I tried to get them into it. One did and quit because he got sick of going 1 and 10 as a marine early game. I didn't bother with the others. I wanted to wait until UWE balanced the game. It never came.
I play once every two weeks to see how the game is going, and I always get bored for the same reason. I don't know if anybody made stats about how much time marines spent building/repairing stuff and shooting alien structures compared to fighting with alien players, but I feel like it's around 75%.
I did that a while ago during 237, came back a few days after 239. Yes aliens still win a lot, and yes when marines win it's usually a stomp, but I've found some other guys all about my skill level and playing some games with them is a lot more fun. Aliens normally win those games but marines always put up one hell of a fight and it's a lot more fun playing with people at your level, it's not too easy that you feel your not getting better, but it's not so hard that you just get pwned on spawn.
Another thing we keep trying is going aliens and playing an "interesting" game. Trying to play with different strats such as rushing for xenocide, or going regen first. (N.B This is something pro players need to start doing when they out-play an entire server, put some arbitrary restrictions on their play style).
So yeh, play with friends. Even if you lose you'll have a lot more fun.
I just created a post that that indirectly agrees with you said. If you can find friends or a clan and you can really work together as a team, as marines you will win more. It may be close to 50/50. But I don't have any friends that play this. Early on, I tried to get them into it. One did and quit because he got sick of going 1 and 10 as a marine early game. I didn't bother with the others. I wanted to wait until UWE balanced the game. It never came.
I don't have any IRL friends who play it. All the guys I play with are just folk I've met while playing random pub games. Slowly we've formed a group that regularly joins each others games and can pretty much fill a server by ourselves in the evenings when everyone's about.
So I took 4 days off of playing this game. I decided my attitude sucking was defeating the purpose of playing. So I gave myself this time off to cool off.
Played this morning. Aliens won 4 games in a row. 79% ratio.
THIS GAME IS NOW UNINSTALLED.
There. I feel better now.
I played throughout the week. Around 50/50 here, on different servers.
If you don't play NS2, it's really tough to get better at NS2.
The real question is this; if the time it takes you to get 'good' at NS2 is time well spent.
If you like playing games that don't tell you anything, punish you heavily for not knowing anything, and have players that will berate you for knowing nothing, then you're in the right place my friend.
I like hard games well enough, but I like hard games that are hard with a plan.
I want to come back in like a year and admire all their hard work finishing NS2 with the money everyone gave them. Miracles don't happen over night, but watching them happen gets frustrating.
After all, a watched kettle never boils right? As long as they don't put out paid DLC maps or some nonsense in the next year there's a real chance I could like NS2 around August or September 2013. I figure six months is enough time to see what they can do.
Don't listen to me though, I play Neverwinter Nights now. That's a game with a robust scripting system.
As much as I want a bigger community for this game, it has no need for people that don't even like it.
Does it have any need for the people who played natural-selection 1 for years, pre-ordered years in advance based on nothing but gratitude for NS1 and a wish to have NS2 see the light of day?
It sure does not seem like it. All the people I used to play with in NS1 have given up on NS2 to the point of not even checking in every once in a while to see if NS2 is improving.
Comments
I would play more if the game had a 50/50 balance. Right now I don't play because I figure if I'm not alien I'm more than likely gonna lose. I don't want to spend the hour or so i have free to waste on 3 loses and maybe a win
uh, thats another assumption. i have way more insight on this topic than you might think. i enjoyed the way it worked in most half life mods and played when i was younger quite often 7 hours a day, but the decision "bhop or no bhop" is not easier because of that. but lets not turn this thread into another bhop thread ;D
In regard to my bolded and underlined quote above, I'm not sure which posters are saying "the teams have a 50/50 win rate probability, but the game isn't balanced.' I haven't seen that post... ever.
What I do see is "Aliens win 70% of the time" and then very well thought out posts that underline why the aliens have such an advantage. I was discouraged to see you simply address statistical semantics in the first line of my reply rather than the true problem, which I outlined shortly after.
To be honest, if the focus is on desired outcomes I don't even see the relevance of stating probable win rates, especially when you're ready to so easily dismiss them. This reminds me of late game Zerg vs Protoss in SC2. It boils down to incredibly predictable and boring broodlord/infestor vs mothership/archon gameplay every time. Even if that was 100% balanced the 'desired outcome' is so bad that it should be fixed. I feel we're there with NS2, right now.
I don't play competitively and I probably don't even know what I'm talking about, but when I play on a public server I can feel that something is off. Something isn't quite right with the balance. Small changes aren't going to fix that. You've got experienced players posting their (great) insights on why NS2's 'desired outcomes' are far less than ideal and I just hope that UWE is willing to consider their opinions.
I don't care about probable win rates (which are still way off in favor of aliens). I care about having a dynamic, interesting, and strategic game. I'm not sure we're there yet.
Mind if I ask what they need this long range hitscan weapon for?
Just for the record, I think you're doing a great job and you're one of the few that I trust to think "our way" on a job. I know dux very well and would trust him, too, but he doesn't have any input so meh. I don't think my generalisation is far enough and I definitely don't think it's far off when it comes to overall game direction.
if not the opposite.
In such situations unless you start talking about things, people are going to have to start assuming things. If there's a deep understanding of an issue and its solution, you have to show it somewhere here and there.
Obviously the best way to demonstrate such would be to make the game work in awesome ways, but even taking an hour once a month to write something more informative and in depth than "It's not there yet" and "We are working on it / It's on our to-do list" would be a damn good start.
marines are so dependent on good aim, and just because some people form a team and play in a tournament doesn't make them top-level aimers
a lot of that is the engine performance. if someone is legitimately talented at aiming, they should probably be playing a different game
People don't play aggregate of games, they play individual games. In particular they play at different player count and skill levels, so what really matters is the probability of winning given the player count and the skill level (and possibly other variables). You can have completely unbalanced individual games and still get a 50% aggregate win-rate by marginalizing away the relevant variables.
Defining balance as the win-rate only seems needlessly restrictive, I think nobody would call the game balanced if for example one of the alien tech path was overwhelmingly better than the two others.
Balance means equal weight and apply to about anything in the game, restricting the concept to the win-rate only doesn't seem to be a very useful, intuitive or fruitful redefinition of the idea.
I think the point being made is that overall balance is not the same as internal balance.
Internal balance is almost never achieved in NS2, or NS1 for that matter, in the sense that any given fight is going to generally be in someone's favor or the other, often wildly so. It is also the case that many weapons or lifeforms are, arguably, excessively potent against other weapons or lifeforms, meaning a lot of the time, combat is perceived as 'unfair'.
You could flip a coin at the start of the game to give one team a million res, that would result in a 50/50 win rate but none of the games played would be 'balanced' in any meaningful sense. An extreme example yes, but it demonstrates the issue.
This is part of the reason why I would like to have a system tracking and showing player experience, so you can make vaguely fair teams.
Played this morning. Aliens won 4 games in a row. 79% ratio.
THIS GAME IS NOW UNINSTALLED.
There. I feel better now.
I'm near that point too.
Judging by your hatred of many of my posts I know this is meant negatively. With that, Be polite. -Talesin
I did that a while ago during 237, came back a few days after 239. Yes aliens still win a lot, and yes when marines win it's usually a stomp, but I've found some other guys all about my skill level and playing some games with them is a lot more fun. Aliens normally win those games but marines always put up one hell of a fight and it's a lot more fun playing with people at your level, it's not too easy that you feel your not getting better, but it's not so hard that you just get pwned on spawn.
Another thing we keep trying is going aliens and playing an "interesting" game. Trying to play with different strats such as rushing for xenocide, or going regen first. (N.B This is something pro players need to start doing when they out-play an entire server, put some arbitrary restrictions on their play style).
So yeh, play with friends. Even if you lose you'll have a lot more fun.
I just created a post that that indirectly agrees with you said. If you can find friends or a clan and you can really work together as a team, as marines you will win more. It may be close to 50/50. But I don't have any friends that play this. Early on, I tried to get them into it. One did and quit because he got sick of going 1 and 10 as a marine early game. I didn't bother with the others. I wanted to wait until UWE balanced the game. It never came.
I don't have any IRL friends who play it. All the guys I play with are just folk I've met while playing random pub games. Slowly we've formed a group that regularly joins each others games and can pretty much fill a server by ourselves in the evenings when everyone's about.
As much as I want a bigger community for this game, it has no need for people that don't even like it.
I like the concept of it. I like the ponteial it has. How about that then?
I played throughout the week. Around 50/50 here, on different servers.
At least you are happy now.
The real question is this; if the time it takes you to get 'good' at NS2 is time well spent.
If you like playing games that don't tell you anything, punish you heavily for not knowing anything, and have players that will berate you for knowing nothing, then you're in the right place my friend.
I like hard games well enough, but I like hard games that are hard with a plan.
I want to come back in like a year and admire all their hard work finishing NS2 with the money everyone gave them. Miracles don't happen over night, but watching them happen gets frustrating.
After all, a watched kettle never boils right? As long as they don't put out paid DLC maps or some nonsense in the next year there's a real chance I could like NS2 around August or September 2013. I figure six months is enough time to see what they can do.
Don't listen to me though, I play Neverwinter Nights now. That's a game with a robust scripting system.
Does it have any need for the people who played natural-selection 1 for years, pre-ordered years in advance based on nothing but gratitude for NS1 and a wish to have NS2 see the light of day?
It sure does not seem like it. All the people I used to play with in NS1 have given up on NS2 to the point of not even checking in every once in a while to see if NS2 is improving.