ScardyBobScardyBobJoin Date: 2009-11-25Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
For me, the choice of first hive is dependent on my desired strategy. Do I want to try to fast build a 2nd hive for quick leap/bilebomb/fade eggs? Then shift is the best bet. A skulk rush before marines get up an obs? Shade hive for camo is a good choice. Make it easier to get an upper hand in early combat? Crag for carapace is desirable.
If going shift first cripples the team, why don't I lose? Like, ever? I'm not trying to brag but I win 19/20 games as alien commander, and I play on lots of different servers with lots of different players of varying skill.
Because the number 1, 2, and 3 factor in determining the outcome is the aggregate skill difference between the teams. If you have a sufficiently better skilled team, then you could likely go without any upgrades and still win.
I think if we want to truly analyze which is the better opening hive you have to look at what is both positive and negative about each Hive and it's upgrades.
TL;DR at the bottom if you want to see my personal opinion based off these facts. (ish)
Also, think about what can be achieved with each upgrade (the positive points that it brings) and what makes them the most viable at that stage of the game.
In this case we are talking about the early stage of the game and here are some of the facts:
-1A. Marines will be at Weapons 0 until 3-4 minutes or sometimes until 6+ minutes.
-2A. Aliens have no abilities that require much energy consumption until the 2nd Hive is up.
-3A. Marines have more combat prowess at the start of the game if played at a competent level.
-4A. Aliens only need to generally control 3 RTs in the early game in order to sufficiently get Lerks at an appropriate time along with a 2nd Hive that should be easily defended by the Lerk map presence. 4-5 RTs on most maps is quite greedy.
-5A. Marines will be usually placing mines and pressuring into locations with the use of mines.
-6A. Vanilla skulks (usually) die to a well placed mine.
Without going much further into that I will now elaborate on the benefits of the Crag and also the Shift and how that correlates to the facts of the early stage of the game along with the other stages.
The Crag Hive:
-1B. Allows the placement of Crags. Healing stations that do excellent healing per second and can be placed in forward locations or to bolster hive defenses.
-2B. Allows you to purchase either carapace or regeneration. Carapace gives more armor to all lifeforms making them take more damage to kill. Regeneration allows lifeforms to stay on the field and alive after being wounded and recover to full health points quickly without giving up map position to Marines.
-3B. Crags have the heal wave ability allowing nearby lifeforms or structures to tank MASSIVE amounts of damage for a short period.
The Shift Hive:
-1C. Allows the placement of Shifts. Shifts allow you to create eggs for 5Tres in addition to energy regeneration. When it is mature you can Echo Alien structures to other locations.
-2C. Allows you to purchase either Celerity or Adrenaline. Celerity allows lifeforms to move slightly faster when not taking damage increasing travel time. Adrenaline allows Aliens to have a larger energy pool.
Now we can briefly look at the midgame of NS2:
-1D. Marines will have at least Armor 1 and Weapons 1 or Weapons 2 if playing with a standard strategy. Additionally, Marines will likely have a Phase Gate setup forcing Aliens to be able to quickly react to attacks and also stage assaults quicker.
-2D. Aliens have a 2nd Hive and have now started unlocking Tier 2 abilities.
-3D. With Aliens using their Tier 2 abilities they will be expending more energy.
In conclusion if you look at all the facts of NS2 in a standard game you can see that many things line up for each hive at each stage:
1A - Makes the Crag Hive more useful given 1-3B. all allow aliens to tank more damage during a period that Marines do the LEAST damage therefore maximizing the effectiveness of that upgrade in that stage of the game.
2A - Shows that there is not a need for the Shift or Shift upgrades in order to maintain a good amount of energy in combat or menial tasks.
3A - The fact that Marines will be at an edge in the early stage makes the Crag Hive a better choice due to Carapace negating some of the power the Marines have in their rifles/pistols against only Skulks. Once again 1-3B comes up here.
4A - This fact means that aliens need less mobility at this stage and should mostly worry about holding ground and winning engagements which leads us back to the points above on why Crag is most useful in doing so.
5A/6A - Due to early game mine placement and the fact that Carapace allows you to survive a mine blast this means this upgrade is most effective in the early stages when mines are most prominent.
1D - Given Marines have higher level upgrades at the midgame makes it all the more important for Carapace to be present in order for Aliens to survive engagements against a group of Marines. ESPECIALLY IMPORTANT IF ALIENS ARE STILL FIGHTING FOR A 2nd TECH POINT.
2D - Given the fact that Aliens are now consuming more energy in engagements and lifeforms with many unlocked abilities after the 2nd Hive it makes the most sense for upgrades like 2C to be present at this stage of the game making the Shift Hive a good choice for a 2nd Hive.
3D - Given this fact, it makes it all the more important for shifts to be out at this stage of the game when it is most important. Not at the early stage when energy consumption is rather low.
Just by looking at the facts here you can see where each Hive has it's strengths and at what stage of the game it is most viable and pays off the most in standard play.
Thanks for reading!
TL;DR:
Crag Hive is most beneficial at the early stages because of several facts of standard gameplay and Shift Hive being much more important at the mid game with abilities and energy consumption being much higher.
I used to be adamant that shift is the only way to start.
I think now that any thing can be made to work.
It's best to see how the skulk pack has been doing after you have got the first couple of harvesters down and then decide.
Although I still think shade first is an all or nothing approach and that silence is a much better first upgrade than camo.
I usually ask the team what they want first too. Better than picking something that will cause the majority to rage at you.
James, you have some good points, but you put them forward with the subtlety of a walrus raping a chipmunk lol.
No doubt.
I just see no reason not to be incredibly blunt in the context of an online gaming forum. It's probably one of the only areas in where you're not forced to handle everything you say with a large degree of diplomacy and tact. Unlike in say an academic setting in where you have to politely debate opposing viewpoints (no matter how ridiculous/unfounded), there's nothing forcing anyone here to employ the same level of tact.
Plus, the bluntness probably comes from having the arguments in this thread about 1000x over in a variety of pubs.
I think if we want to truly analyze which is the better opening hive you have to look at what is both positive and negative about each Hive and it's upgrades.
TL;DR at the bottom if you want to see my personal opinion based off these facts. (ish)
Also, think about what can be achieved with each upgrade (the positive points that it brings) and what makes them the most viable at that stage of the game.
In this case we are talking about the early stage of the game and here are some of the facts:
-1A. Marines will be at Weapons 0 until 3-4 minutes or sometimes until 6+ minutes.
-2A. Aliens have no abilities that require much energy consumption until the 2nd Hive is up.
-3A. Marines have more combat prowess at the start of the game if played at a competent level.
-4A. Aliens only need to generally control 3 RTs in the early game in order to sufficiently get Lerks at an appropriate time along with a 2nd Hive that should be easily defended by the Lerk map presence. 4-5 RTs on most maps is quite greedy.
-5A. Marines will be usually placing mines and pressuring into locations with the use of mines.
-6A. Vanilla skulks (usually) die to a well placed mine.
Without going much further into that I will now elaborate on the benefits of the Crag and also the Shift and how that correlates to the facts of the early stage of the game along with the other stages.
The Crag Hive:
-1B. Allows the placement of Crags. Healing stations that do excellent healing per second and can be placed in forward locations or to bolster hive defenses.
-2B. Allows you to purchase either carapace or regeneration. Carapace gives more armor to all lifeforms making them take more damage to kill. Regeneration allows lifeforms to stay on the field and alive after being wounded and recover to full health points quickly without giving up map position to Marines.
-3B. Crags have the heal wave ability allowing nearby lifeforms or structures to tank MASSIVE amounts of damage for a short period.
The Shift Hive:
-1C. Allows the placement of Shifts. Shifts allow you to create eggs for 5Tres in addition to energy regeneration. When it is mature you can Echo Alien structures to other locations.
-2C. Allows you to purchase either Celerity or Adrenaline. Celerity allows lifeforms to move slightly faster when not taking damage increasing travel time. Adrenaline allows Aliens to have a larger energy pool.
Now we can briefly look at the midgame of NS2:
-1D. Marines will have at least Armor 1 and Weapons 1 or Weapons 2 if playing with a standard strategy. Additionally, Marines will likely have a Phase Gate setup forcing Aliens to be able to quickly react to attacks and also stage assaults quicker.
-2D. Aliens have a 2nd Hive and have now started unlocking Tier 2 abilities.
-3D. With Aliens using their Tier 2 abilities they will be expending more energy.
In conclusion if you look at all the facts of NS2 in a standard game you can see that many things line up for each hive at each stage:
1A - Makes the Crag Hive more useful given 1-3B. all allow aliens to tank more damage during a period that Marines do the LEAST damage therefore maximizing the effectiveness of that upgrade in that stage of the game.
2A - Shows that there is not a need for the Shift or Shift upgrades in order to maintain a good amount of energy in combat or menial tasks.
3A - The fact that Marines will be at an edge in the early stage makes the Crag Hive a better choice due to Carapace negating some of the power the Marines have in their rifles/pistols against only Skulks. Once again 1-3B comes up here.
4A - This fact means that aliens need less mobility at this stage and should mostly worry about holding ground and winning engagements which leads us back to the points above on why Crag is most useful in doing so.
5A/6A - Due to early game mine placement and the fact that Carapace allows you to survive a mine blast this means this upgrade is most effective in the early stages when mines are most prominent.
1D - Given Marines have higher level upgrades at the midgame makes it all the more important for Carapace to be present in order for Aliens to survive engagements against a group of Marines. ESPECIALLY IMPORTANT IF ALIENS ARE STILL FIGHTING FOR A 2nd TECH POINT.
2D - Given the fact that Aliens are now consuming more energy in engagements and lifeforms with many unlocked abilities after the 2nd Hive it makes the most sense for upgrades like 2C to be present at this stage of the game making the Shift Hive a good choice for a 2nd Hive.
3D - Given this fact, it makes it all the more important for shifts to be out at this stage of the game when it is most important. Not at the early stage when energy consumption is rather low.
Just by looking at the facts here you can see where each Hive has it's strengths and at what stage of the game it is most viable and pays off the most in standard play.
Thanks for reading!
TL;DR:
Crag Hive is most beneficial at the early stages because of several facts of standard gameplay and Shift Hive being much more important at the mid game with abilities and energy consumption being much higher.
All of this is a well written explanation of what *should* be obvious - that crag is currently the optimal first choice.
One thing that's worth noting is the true cost of an early shift. When you go shift hive just for the purpose of a shift, you are paying the following:
15 (shift hive upgrade)
10 (shift)
20-40 (first 8-16 eggs)
The egg spawn cost is absolutely crippling. And what exactly are you paying for? On most maps, an early shift won't be significantly far from your main base. It'll be say, the distance between cargo and nano. Most commanders won't necessarily stop at 8 eggs either, often spawning upwards of 16 over the course of 1-2 minutes. Spending 45-85 TRes to spawn skulks at a place they can get to within 8-10 seconds is just awful in the context of early game opportunity cost.
That same 85 res (more like 100+ res when you include celerity) can be used to help fund the following in that same early timespan:
Second Hive (40)
Crag Upgrade (15)
Carapace (30)
Leap (25)
Simply put, you don't get much value for the investment in shift eggs early on. The cost is much higher than it appears on face value, and it's the main reason why alien teams end up in horrible situations like 9+ minutes without cara/leap.
I just see no reason not to be incredibly blunt in the context of an online gaming forum. It's probably one of the only areas in where you're not forced to handle everything you say with a large degree of diplomacy and tact. Unlike in say an academic setting in where you have to politely debate opposing viewpoints (no matter how ridiculous/unfounded), there's nothing forcing anyone here to employ the same level of tact.
Wrong. While most normal people in the academic setting will debate courteously and respectfully, there are some idiots there who also seem to enjoy being total arseholes.
Just because it's a gaming forum doesn't mean you should disregard tact and politeness. Behind each pseudo-anonymous handle is a real person who enjoys playing the same niche game you do. That same game with only a few thousand players worldwide, which could really benefit from expanding, or at least maintaining its playerbase.
There's a difference between being blunt and being rude. Surely you, the master strategist, know how to get your point across while still keeping people on side?
As for the topic, I don't contest that crag first is currently the best upgrade path, although on pubs it can be fun to mix up the strategies to keep the game interesting. Especially if you suspect that your team might be the stronger one. Without question, whatever team you are on will fall into this category... Let's not forget that James and i am king as a pair can obviously take on the current 6 man arc team, as they are far better than any other player of any game at any time and any place. Which leads me to refer you back to my previous post in this thread on page 2.
A little humility, some tact, and a healthy dose of respect go a long way in life, be it in person or on the internet. That should be painfully obvious to everyone, even more than the clear benefits of early crag hive upgrades (which we agree on).
Any upgrade/strat can result in a win, some are just more likely to work than others. This creates the fact that going with a less used strat has the upside of surprise. Nevertheless I would pick shade first before I would pick shift first.
Shade's an all in play. Crag is balanced play. Shift is, well, in my opinion, bad play.
While carapace and crag tech is generally good for your team, I have found depending on the circumstances the other tech paths are completely viable. It's more often situational than anything else. It's always good to experiment with tech and tactics. It might take the other team by surprise, or it could be terrible. But this is why having options is great. No game will be the same. If we all went crag first All the time it would be a very boring game.
Until you give Celerity something that actually helps in the early stages of the game your post will not be true Obraxis. Currently it does nothing wall jumping can't accomplish.
Additionally, while Shade is a viable start Hive it makes the game very "boring" because it's either a really early win and aliens dominate the Marines on early map control or it goes "even" and the Marines gain the edge and perhaps Hive lock the aliens onto Shade making the game "gg" in that regard.
Not to mention the current implementation of Camo is a joke for gameplay and balance. It takes zero execution and skill to use it but a godlike amount of gamesense to feel it coming and counter it in public matches where Marine commanders are not scanning pushes and likely have few observatories.
Refer to my post above on why Crag makes the most sense.
Necro is clearly bad at the game if he's arguing against crag first. His length of playing just means that he's spent a really long time being bad.
As far as the rest of the post goes:
Spamming shift eggs in the early part of the game is probably one of the easiest ways to absolutely cripple an alien team. Doing so means that you're going to be greatly delaying your second hive, which means you'll be delaying vital upgrades like carapace, leap, and bilebomb until well over 9-10 minutes into the game. Aliens do not need to control large portions of the map in the early game to easily win. They certainly don't need to spam eggs to "zerg" marines down, when holding 3-4 RTs and getting a second hive (with early carapace) is far superior. And you can hold those 3 RTs/second hive simply by getting a handful of people to go gorge - nothing else is required in a pub format.
Necro is not arguing against "crag first", he's simply disagreeing with your notion that Crag first is the only viable thing ever in any situation no matter what.
And i think arguing against that is actually kind of the right thing to do. A game like NS2 is based around player choices and what impact they have, as such all upgrade chambers are viable depending on the situation.
Talking about situations.. why should "spamming eggs" delay the second hive? Ever thought about dropping the Hive first and getting the shift after?
Not only does this help the Gorge speedbuild the Hive (he won't run out of Adren) it also gives the option to "beacon in" reinforcements quickly and well controlled.
On some maps this can be a giant advantage. Starting on Cave at mineshaft can be a giant pita, but a Shift can really help gap the wide distances (at least when Marines start in Control) and make getting and holding a second Hive way easier.
i never claimed that. reading comprehension 101. I was just arguing with the incredibly stupid logic that "it won't work in pub play because it works in comp play."
"A competitive team has way better coordination, they have the time to actually practice exotic and complicated strategies and they have the experience and knowledge of playing with each other for hundreds of hours."
yah that's nice, but it has nothing to do with carapace first, which is not an "exotic strategy" nor does it take much coordination or practice to get benefits from
bottom line: carapace first works well for pub games, is better than celerity for all skill levels.
Many things have a far lesser chance of working in a pub setting compared to a competitive or vice visa.
Depending on the experience and the number of players, at times it can be far more useful (or even "Fun") to go Shade or Shift first in a pub round.
Going Shade first probably won't be that good of an idea in an competitive setting tho.
Now apply Carapace to that same situation. A new player as a Skulk is far more likely to profit from Camo compared to Carapace.
Carapace can't compensate for his lack of experience in playing a Skulk, he simply does not now how to approach a target, evade damage or make use of wall jumping.
A newbie Carapace Skulk will just be a little bit more durable, but still easily predictable target to kill.
Give that same player Camo and he will at least be able to get a few bites in, maybe even be able to understand the role of the Skulk as an silent ambusher better to a point where doesn't need/want Camo anymore.
The game and the way it's played is by far too dynamic and widespread to claim blanket statements like "X is the only choice, no matter what" and if such a thing actually happens then it's gonna get changed.
Right now the game has a few odds and ends where "X is the best choice no matter what" or "Y is no choice in a very common situation" but UWE hopefully will iron those out.
Shift is obviously not a good choice in ideal sitautions. But when you base your discussion on ideal situations you ignore reality.
Shift first is very helpful in 12v12 for keeping your team out of egglock and for herding your cats to go where you want them to go. You obviously should evaluate your teams skill and if you think they are pretty decent then you may not need to go shift first, but I find that you usually do, just for the egg lock issue alone. If your team is fairly resistant to orders then having the shift is extremely useful. I would say that in this (a high percentage of pub situations) that shift opening is not only viable but often required.
Of course this is extremely expensive, but if you can use this tactic to lock down a decent amount of res, central drilling, nano then it pays huge dividends as ultimately as aliens in a large game its all about just getting into the late game and generating Pres for your team and that Tres will pay itself back quickly if it helps you to hold an RT or two.
Your counter argument to these points basically boils down to - well if your players are so dumb you get egglocked/dont listen to your commnds you would lose anyway is rather inane, this implies that your comming in fact doesnt matter at all, only the level of the players on your team.
TLDR; in 12v12 the kham can have the most impact on a subpar team with a shift opening, with a good team, you can do whatever you want regardless
James, you have some good points, but you put them forward with the subtlety of a walrus raping a chipmunk lol.
No doubt.
I just see no reason not to be incredibly blunt in the context of an online gaming forum. It's probably one of the only areas in where you're not forced to handle everything you say with a large degree of diplomacy and tact. Unlike in say an academic setting in where you have to politely debate opposing viewpoints (no matter how ridiculous/unfounded), there's nothing forcing anyone here to employ the same level of tact.
Plus, the bluntness probably comes from having the arguments in this thread about 1000x over in a variety of pubs.
If you are from a academic background, you know that the ones that have the only one and simple truth are usually wrong.
Also theres a line between being blunt and being an ignorant asshole. In my opinion you crossed that line in this thread.
You can argue in favor of crag as much as you like and you may be right for <20 ppl. servers with competent players, but on your normal 20-24 player server you will get into big big trouble with crag first the second marines decide to walk into your hive.
Also the ability to survive 4 more bullets is not much help to people who don't know how to use walls to evade marine fire, considering rpm of the rifle is so ridiculously high that most pub marines are literally _not able_ to shoot in bursts of less than 5 bullets.
So most situations come down to if aliens can swarm a marine or simply if the marine manages to get his crosshair over the alien approaching in a straight line.
Normally either marine or skulk dies without doing damage to the other. Crag is not help in this scenario while cele helps alot.
Conculsion:
1) Stop being a dickhead
2) Just say "Carapace is the best first upgrade on normal sized servers with competent players" and people will agree
Would love to use crag every game or shift silence for troleing but shift is a necessary evil in most pub games and it's rare to have 4+ good shooters on the marine team unless it's being stacked, I wanted to make a mod that opened people's maps every 15 seconds and people had to press the map key to close it, maybe only on during rookie mode, just to get people into a habit of at least pressing the map key. It is pointless being able to drop a hive 30 seconds earlier in pubs if you can't secure that immediate area and the most sure fire way in pubs to secure an area is to turn it into a spawn.
Would love to use crag every game or shift silence for troleing but shift is a necessary evil in most pub games and it's rare to have 4+ good shooters on the marine team unless it's being stacked, I wanted to make a mod that opened people's maps every 15 seconds and people had to press the map key to close it, maybe only on during rookie mode, just to get people into a habit of at least pressing the map key. It is pointless being able to drop a hive 30 seconds earlier in pubs if you can't secure that immediate area and the most sure fire way in pubs to secure an area is to turn it into a spawn.
Such is life in the comm.
I agree that it's painful when people don't use their map and show some basic level of game sense.
However it's arguably even worse when a non-communicating comm makes decisions like this without giving the team a heads up to prepare for the strategy, and unfortunately I see this all too often in pubs! It's like when a skulk runs past computer lab seeing 5+ marines coming from flight control and just runs off somewhere else without telling the team. Sigh.
All of this is a well written explanation of what *should* be obvious - that crag is currently the optimal first choice.
One thing that's worth noting is the true cost of an early shift. When you go shift hive just for the purpose of a shift, you are paying the following:
15 (shift hive upgrade)
10 (shift)
20-40 (first 8-16 eggs)
The egg spawn cost is absolutely crippling. And what exactly are you paying for? On most maps, an early shift won't be significantly far from your main base. It'll be say, the distance between cargo and nano. Most commanders won't necessarily stop at 8 eggs either, often spawning upwards of 16 over the course of 1-2 minutes. Spending 45-85 TRes to spawn skulks at a place they can get to within 8-10 seconds is just awful in the context of early game opportunity cost.
That same 85 res (more like 100+ res when you include celerity) can be used to help fund the following in that same early timespan:
Second Hive (40)
Crag Upgrade (15)
Carapace (30)
Leap (25)
Simply put, you don't get much value for the investment in shift eggs early on. The cost is much higher than it appears on face value, and it's the main reason why alien teams end up in horrible situations like 9+ minutes without cara/leap.
Well, I don't spam eggs. I spawn them when people are dead and I want to respawn them somewhere specific. And the point I'm trying to make here is that if what you're saying is true, why doesn't it happen? Why am I able to go shift first, spend res on egg spawns and still get second hive and abilities by 7:00-7:30 minutes?
Carapace first is definitely the way to go both economically and for combat effectiveness. To argue Shift is a viable opening is fine but with good Marines you are going to seriously pay for being 9 rounded skulks until the 2nd Hive goes up.
Shift Hive opening revolves around the lack of competence in players imo.
- You get Celerity for speed since you can't wall jump. (easy mechanic to learn)
- You make more Eggs (10Tres + 5 Tres per 2 Eggs) because your team is dieing way too much. (delays your 2nd Hive and other goals)
- You force players to spawn in a certain area. (because your team has bad map awareness and doesn't go where you want them) [not the only reason to use shift egg spawns as it can be nice for staging base rushes but once again could be done without forcing it]
I honestly don't feel like it's cost effective when you can just have players capable of doing easy things like pressing C to open their map, die less and using wall jump.
There are some plus sides and I won't list them all but just a few:
+ It allows you to build the 2nd Hive with Gorges with unlimited energy.
+ It gives Lerks unlimited energy in defending a hive.
+ It synergizes well as a 2nd Hive with the 2nd Hive abilities - Adrenaline and Blink so Fades can regain energy quickly in forward locations/Hives.
You can't 'just have players do stuff' because players are as good as they are, and you have no control over that.
If 'just get your players to play better' was a valid strategy, then it would also be a criticism against carapace. Why do you NEED the extra HP, just get hit less.
All upgrades are technically just crutches for lack of skill, that's why they are valuable, because they reduce the need for players to be good at the game in order to win. Skill is hard to get, but the game gives you money.
Carapace makes up for deficiency in combat, celerity makes up for deficiencies in strategic versatility. The latter is a much more important aspect of the game than the former, at least in terms of determining victory.
Well, I don't spam eggs. I spawn them when people are dead and I want to respawn them somewhere specific. And the point I'm trying to make here is that if what you're saying is true, why doesn't it happen? Why am I able to go shift first, spend res on egg spawns and still get second hive and abilities by 7:00-7:30 minutes?
Games where you're able to do that are games where the aliens would have won no matter what due to terrible marines. Those are games where an alien comm gets an extremely fast 4-5+ RT, and there's zero meaningful harassment. If the marine team puts any pressure on your RTs at all, a shift first opening with egg spawns sets you way, way back. Just because you win with shift in those circumstances doesn't mean that shift wasn't a dumb and severely suboptimal decision. It means that the marine team didn't have anyone capable of winning the game in the first place (ie: aggressive marines who break away from the zerg)
"In Internet slang, a troll (pron.: /ˈtroʊl/, /ˈtrɒl/) is someone who posts inflammatory,[1] extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as a forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking readers into an emotional response[2] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.[3] The noun troll may also refer to the provocative message itself, as in: 'That was an excellent troll you posted.' "
There's no trolling here. Beyond perhaps people like you who ignore points made a million times in the thread and still go, "BUT WHAT ABOUT 24 PLAYER SERVERS" when the point has been addressed and destroyed repeatedly.
"In Internet slang, a troll (pron.: /ˈtroʊl/, /ˈtrɒl/) is someone who posts inflammatory,[1] extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as a forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking readers into an emotional response[2] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.[3] The noun troll may also refer to the provocative message itself, as in: 'That was an excellent troll you posted.' "
plz demonstrate the trolls in this thread
Inflammatory.
Telling people they are stupid is not inflammatory now?
See my previous 2 posts in this topic outlining why the attitude you both show in this thread stinks.
There's no trolling here. Beyond perhaps people like you who ignore points made a million times in the thread and still go, "BUT WHAT ABOUT 24 PLAYER SERVERS" when the point has been addressed and destroyed repeatedly.
well you have no clue about the game anyway... it's more like your point was destroyed a million times and you still go "well but I'm right derp derp derp"
"In Internet slang, a troll (pron.: /ˈtroʊl/, /ˈtrɒl/) is someone who posts inflammatory,[1] extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as a forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking readers into an emotional response[2] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.[3] The noun troll may also refer to the provocative message itself, as in: 'That was an excellent troll you posted.' "
plz demonstrate the trolls in this thread
Inflammatory.
Telling people they are stupid is not inflammatory now?
See my previous 2 posts in this topic outlining why the attitude you both show in this thread stinks.
"In Internet slang, a troll (pron.: /ˈtroʊl/, /ˈtrɒl/) is someone who posts inflammatory,[1] extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as a forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking readers into an emotional response[2] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.[3] The noun troll may also refer to the provocative message itself, as in: 'That was an excellent troll you posted.' "
this is why you can't have a discussion with people; they can't even read a simple definition properly
Comments
Because the number 1, 2, and 3 factor in determining the outcome is the aggregate skill difference between the teams. If you have a sufficiently better skilled team, then you could likely go without any upgrades and still win.
That is effectively close to feign death and redemption... neither of which were very popular mechanics
TL;DR at the bottom if you want to see my personal opinion based off these facts. (ish)
Also, think about what can be achieved with each upgrade (the positive points that it brings) and what makes them the most viable at that stage of the game.
In this case we are talking about the early stage of the game and here are some of the facts:
-1A. Marines will be at Weapons 0 until 3-4 minutes or sometimes until 6+ minutes.
-2A. Aliens have no abilities that require much energy consumption until the 2nd Hive is up.
-3A. Marines have more combat prowess at the start of the game if played at a competent level.
-4A. Aliens only need to generally control 3 RTs in the early game in order to sufficiently get Lerks at an appropriate time along with a 2nd Hive that should be easily defended by the Lerk map presence. 4-5 RTs on most maps is quite greedy.
-5A. Marines will be usually placing mines and pressuring into locations with the use of mines.
-6A. Vanilla skulks (usually) die to a well placed mine.
Without going much further into that I will now elaborate on the benefits of the Crag and also the Shift and how that correlates to the facts of the early stage of the game along with the other stages.
The Crag Hive:
-1B. Allows the placement of Crags. Healing stations that do excellent healing per second and can be placed in forward locations or to bolster hive defenses.
-2B. Allows you to purchase either carapace or regeneration. Carapace gives more armor to all lifeforms making them take more damage to kill. Regeneration allows lifeforms to stay on the field and alive after being wounded and recover to full health points quickly without giving up map position to Marines.
-3B. Crags have the heal wave ability allowing nearby lifeforms or structures to tank MASSIVE amounts of damage for a short period.
The Shift Hive:
-1C. Allows the placement of Shifts. Shifts allow you to create eggs for 5Tres in addition to energy regeneration. When it is mature you can Echo Alien structures to other locations.
-2C. Allows you to purchase either Celerity or Adrenaline. Celerity allows lifeforms to move slightly faster when not taking damage increasing travel time. Adrenaline allows Aliens to have a larger energy pool.
Now we can briefly look at the midgame of NS2:
-1D. Marines will have at least Armor 1 and Weapons 1 or Weapons 2 if playing with a standard strategy. Additionally, Marines will likely have a Phase Gate setup forcing Aliens to be able to quickly react to attacks and also stage assaults quicker.
-2D. Aliens have a 2nd Hive and have now started unlocking Tier 2 abilities.
-3D. With Aliens using their Tier 2 abilities they will be expending more energy.
In conclusion if you look at all the facts of NS2 in a standard game you can see that many things line up for each hive at each stage:
1A - Makes the Crag Hive more useful given 1-3B. all allow aliens to tank more damage during a period that Marines do the LEAST damage therefore maximizing the effectiveness of that upgrade in that stage of the game.
2A - Shows that there is not a need for the Shift or Shift upgrades in order to maintain a good amount of energy in combat or menial tasks.
3A - The fact that Marines will be at an edge in the early stage makes the Crag Hive a better choice due to Carapace negating some of the power the Marines have in their rifles/pistols against only Skulks. Once again 1-3B comes up here.
4A - This fact means that aliens need less mobility at this stage and should mostly worry about holding ground and winning engagements which leads us back to the points above on why Crag is most useful in doing so.
5A/6A - Due to early game mine placement and the fact that Carapace allows you to survive a mine blast this means this upgrade is most effective in the early stages when mines are most prominent.
1D - Given Marines have higher level upgrades at the midgame makes it all the more important for Carapace to be present in order for Aliens to survive engagements against a group of Marines. ESPECIALLY IMPORTANT IF ALIENS ARE STILL FIGHTING FOR A 2nd TECH POINT.
2D - Given the fact that Aliens are now consuming more energy in engagements and lifeforms with many unlocked abilities after the 2nd Hive it makes the most sense for upgrades like 2C to be present at this stage of the game making the Shift Hive a good choice for a 2nd Hive.
3D - Given this fact, it makes it all the more important for shifts to be out at this stage of the game when it is most important. Not at the early stage when energy consumption is rather low.
Just by looking at the facts here you can see where each Hive has it's strengths and at what stage of the game it is most viable and pays off the most in standard play.
Thanks for reading!
TL;DR:
Crag Hive is most beneficial at the early stages because of several facts of standard gameplay and Shift Hive being much more important at the mid game with abilities and energy consumption being much higher.
I think now that any thing can be made to work.
It's best to see how the skulk pack has been doing after you have got the first couple of harvesters down and then decide.
Although I still think shade first is an all or nothing approach and that silence is a much better first upgrade than camo.
I usually ask the team what they want first too. Better than picking something that will cause the majority to rage at you.
No doubt.
I just see no reason not to be incredibly blunt in the context of an online gaming forum. It's probably one of the only areas in where you're not forced to handle everything you say with a large degree of diplomacy and tact. Unlike in say an academic setting in where you have to politely debate opposing viewpoints (no matter how ridiculous/unfounded), there's nothing forcing anyone here to employ the same level of tact.
Plus, the bluntness probably comes from having the arguments in this thread about 1000x over in a variety of pubs.
All of this is a well written explanation of what *should* be obvious - that crag is currently the optimal first choice.
One thing that's worth noting is the true cost of an early shift. When you go shift hive just for the purpose of a shift, you are paying the following:
15 (shift hive upgrade)
10 (shift)
20-40 (first 8-16 eggs)
The egg spawn cost is absolutely crippling. And what exactly are you paying for? On most maps, an early shift won't be significantly far from your main base. It'll be say, the distance between cargo and nano. Most commanders won't necessarily stop at 8 eggs either, often spawning upwards of 16 over the course of 1-2 minutes. Spending 45-85 TRes to spawn skulks at a place they can get to within 8-10 seconds is just awful in the context of early game opportunity cost.
That same 85 res (more like 100+ res when you include celerity) can be used to help fund the following in that same early timespan:
Second Hive (40)
Crag Upgrade (15)
Carapace (30)
Leap (25)
Simply put, you don't get much value for the investment in shift eggs early on. The cost is much higher than it appears on face value, and it's the main reason why alien teams end up in horrible situations like 9+ minutes without cara/leap.
Wrong. While most normal people in the academic setting will debate courteously and respectfully, there are some idiots there who also seem to enjoy being total arseholes.
Just because it's a gaming forum doesn't mean you should disregard tact and politeness. Behind each pseudo-anonymous handle is a real person who enjoys playing the same niche game you do. That same game with only a few thousand players worldwide, which could really benefit from expanding, or at least maintaining its playerbase.
There's a difference between being blunt and being rude. Surely you, the master strategist, know how to get your point across while still keeping people on side?
As for the topic, I don't contest that crag first is currently the best upgrade path, although on pubs it can be fun to mix up the strategies to keep the game interesting. Especially if you suspect that your team might be the stronger one. Without question, whatever team you are on will fall into this category... Let's not forget that James and i am king as a pair can obviously take on the current 6 man arc team, as they are far better than any other player of any game at any time and any place. Which leads me to refer you back to my previous post in this thread on page 2.
A little humility, some tact, and a healthy dose of respect go a long way in life, be it in person or on the internet. That should be painfully obvious to everyone, even more than the clear benefits of early crag hive upgrades (which we agree on).
Shade's an all in play. Crag is balanced play. Shift is, well, in my opinion, bad play.
Or so it seems, in my opinion.
Additionally, while Shade is a viable start Hive it makes the game very "boring" because it's either a really early win and aliens dominate the Marines on early map control or it goes "even" and the Marines gain the edge and perhaps Hive lock the aliens onto Shade making the game "gg" in that regard.
Not to mention the current implementation of Camo is a joke for gameplay and balance. It takes zero execution and skill to use it but a godlike amount of gamesense to feel it coming and counter it in public matches where Marine commanders are not scanning pushes and likely have few observatories.
Refer to my post above on why Crag makes the most sense.
Necro is not arguing against "crag first", he's simply disagreeing with your notion that Crag first is the only viable thing ever in any situation no matter what.
And i think arguing against that is actually kind of the right thing to do. A game like NS2 is based around player choices and what impact they have, as such all upgrade chambers are viable depending on the situation.
Talking about situations.. why should "spamming eggs" delay the second hive? Ever thought about dropping the Hive first and getting the shift after?
Not only does this help the Gorge speedbuild the Hive (he won't run out of Adren) it also gives the option to "beacon in" reinforcements quickly and well controlled.
On some maps this can be a giant advantage. Starting on Cave at mineshaft can be a giant pita, but a Shift can really help gap the wide distances (at least when Marines start in Control) and make getting and holding a second Hive way easier.
Many things have a far lesser chance of working in a pub setting compared to a competitive or vice visa.
Depending on the experience and the number of players, at times it can be far more useful (or even "Fun") to go Shade or Shift first in a pub round.
Going Shade first probably won't be that good of an idea in an competitive setting tho.
Now apply Carapace to that same situation. A new player as a Skulk is far more likely to profit from Camo compared to Carapace.
Carapace can't compensate for his lack of experience in playing a Skulk, he simply does not now how to approach a target, evade damage or make use of wall jumping.
A newbie Carapace Skulk will just be a little bit more durable, but still easily predictable target to kill.
Give that same player Camo and he will at least be able to get a few bites in, maybe even be able to understand the role of the Skulk as an silent ambusher better to a point where doesn't need/want Camo anymore.
The game and the way it's played is by far too dynamic and widespread to claim blanket statements like "X is the only choice, no matter what" and if such a thing actually happens then it's gonna get changed.
Right now the game has a few odds and ends where "X is the best choice no matter what" or "Y is no choice in a very common situation" but UWE hopefully will iron those out.
pls not redemption again ;_;
Shift first is very helpful in 12v12 for keeping your team out of egglock and for herding your cats to go where you want them to go. You obviously should evaluate your teams skill and if you think they are pretty decent then you may not need to go shift first, but I find that you usually do, just for the egg lock issue alone. If your team is fairly resistant to orders then having the shift is extremely useful. I would say that in this (a high percentage of pub situations) that shift opening is not only viable but often required.
Of course this is extremely expensive, but if you can use this tactic to lock down a decent amount of res, central drilling, nano then it pays huge dividends as ultimately as aliens in a large game its all about just getting into the late game and generating Pres for your team and that Tres will pay itself back quickly if it helps you to hold an RT or two.
Your counter argument to these points basically boils down to - well if your players are so dumb you get egglocked/dont listen to your commnds you would lose anyway is rather inane, this implies that your comming in fact doesnt matter at all, only the level of the players on your team.
TLDR; in 12v12 the kham can have the most impact on a subpar team with a shift opening, with a good team, you can do whatever you want regardless
If you are from a academic background, you know that the ones that have the only one and simple truth are usually wrong.
Also theres a line between being blunt and being an ignorant asshole. In my opinion you crossed that line in this thread.
You can argue in favor of crag as much as you like and you may be right for <20 ppl. servers with competent players, but on your normal 20-24 player server you will get into big big trouble with crag first the second marines decide to walk into your hive.
Also the ability to survive 4 more bullets is not much help to people who don't know how to use walls to evade marine fire, considering rpm of the rifle is so ridiculously high that most pub marines are literally _not able_ to shoot in bursts of less than 5 bullets.
So most situations come down to if aliens can swarm a marine or simply if the marine manages to get his crosshair over the alien approaching in a straight line.
Normally either marine or skulk dies without doing damage to the other. Crag is not help in this scenario while cele helps alot.
Conculsion:
1) Stop being a dickhead
2) Just say "Carapace is the best first upgrade on normal sized servers with competent players" and people will agree
Such is life in the comm.
I agree that it's painful when people don't use their map and show some basic level of game sense.
However it's arguably even worse when a non-communicating comm makes decisions like this without giving the team a heads up to prepare for the strategy, and unfortunately I see this all too often in pubs! It's like when a skulk runs past computer lab seeing 5+ marines coming from flight control and just runs off somewhere else without telling the team. Sigh.
Well, I don't spam eggs. I spawn them when people are dead and I want to respawn them somewhere specific. And the point I'm trying to make here is that if what you're saying is true, why doesn't it happen? Why am I able to go shift first, spend res on egg spawns and still get second hive and abilities by 7:00-7:30 minutes?
You can't 'just have players do stuff' because players are as good as they are, and you have no control over that.
If 'just get your players to play better' was a valid strategy, then it would also be a criticism against carapace. Why do you NEED the extra HP, just get hit less.
All upgrades are technically just crutches for lack of skill, that's why they are valuable, because they reduce the need for players to be good at the game in order to win. Skill is hard to get, but the game gives you money.
Carapace makes up for deficiency in combat, celerity makes up for deficiencies in strategic versatility. The latter is a much more important aspect of the game than the former, at least in terms of determining victory.
Games where you're able to do that are games where the aliens would have won no matter what due to terrible marines. Those are games where an alien comm gets an extremely fast 4-5+ RT, and there's zero meaningful harassment. If the marine team puts any pressure on your RTs at all, a shift first opening with egg spawns sets you way, way back. Just because you win with shift in those circumstances doesn't mean that shift wasn't a dumb and severely suboptimal decision. It means that the marine team didn't have anyone capable of winning the game in the first place (ie: aggressive marines who break away from the zerg)
plz demonstrate the trolls in this thread
There's no trolling here. Beyond perhaps people like you who ignore points made a million times in the thread and still go, "BUT WHAT ABOUT 24 PLAYER SERVERS" when the point has been addressed and destroyed repeatedly.
Inflammatory.
Telling people they are stupid is not inflammatory now?
See my previous 2 posts in this topic outlining why the attitude you both show in this thread stinks.
this is why you can't have a discussion with people; they can't even read a simple definition properly