There's no trolling here. Beyond perhaps people like you who ignore points made a million times in the thread and still go, "BUT WHAT ABOUT 24 PLAYER SERVERS" when the point has been addressed and destroyed repeatedly.
well you have no clue about the game anyway... it's more like your point was destroyed a million times and you still go "well but I'm right derp derp derp"
I'm pretty sure everyone with actual skill in this thread (ie: IAMKING/Locklear) supports the premise of the OP. :]
Games where you're able to do that are games where the aliens would have won no matter what due to terrible marines. Those are games where an alien comm gets an extremely fast 4-5+ RT, and there's zero meaningful harassment. If the marine team puts any pressure on your RTs at all, a shift first opening with egg spawns sets you way, way back. Just because you win with shift in those circumstances doesn't mean that shift wasn't a dumb and severely suboptimal decision. It means that the marine team didn't have anyone capable of winning the game in the first place (ie: aggressive marines who break away from the zerg)
What is your proof for this? You seem to be saying that going Crag first would enable a team that is not as skilled to win. If upgrade chosen is the determining factor, then this isn't a game, it's a choose your own adventure story with predetermined outcomes arising from a few simple choices.
You state your point as if it is obvious, but I don't see any evidence to support you beyond your own opinion. Are there any statistics on alien win rate vs first upgrade chosen?
I'm not saying your position isn't logical, just that you are claiming something as fact without any proof. That is intellectually dishonest.
Also, if the stats were to prove that the majority of alien wins came with shift first, would that change your mind? If not, what level of proof would be required to change your mind?
If you want to have this debate, you need to set some ground rules as to what level of proof is required to change your opinion. Being completely unwilling to change your mind and constantly repeating that you are right is not a discussion, it's a diatribe. Which is fine, but let people know up front that you are completely close minded to the subject so they know not to waste time discussing it with you.
"In Internet slang, a troll (pron.: /ˈtroʊl/, /ˈtrɒl/) is someone who posts inflammatory,[1] extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as a forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking readers into an emotional response[2] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.[3] The noun troll may also refer to the provocative message itself, as in: 'That was an excellent troll you posted.' "
plz demonstrate the trolls in this thread
Inflammatory.
Telling people they are stupid is not inflammatory now?
See my previous 2 posts in this topic outlining why the attitude you both show in this thread stinks.
"In Internet slang, a troll (pron.: /ˈtroʊl/, /ˈtrɒl/) is someone who posts inflammatory,[1] extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as a forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking readers into an emotional response[2] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.[3] The noun troll may also refer to the provocative message itself, as in: 'That was an excellent troll you posted.' "
this is why you can't have a discussion with people; they can't even read a simple definition properly
I think you need to look up the definition of "or". Particularly how it contrasts with the word "and".
"In Internet slang, a troll (pron.: /ˈtroʊl/, /ˈtrɒl/) is someone who posts inflammatory,[1] extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as a forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking readers into an emotional response[2] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.[3] The noun troll may also refer to the provocative message itself, as in: 'That was an excellent troll you posted.' "
plz demonstrate the trolls in this thread
Inflammatory.
Telling people they are stupid is not inflammatory now?
See my previous 2 posts in this topic outlining why the attitude you both show in this thread stinks.
"In Internet slang, a troll (pron.: /ˈtroʊl/, /ˈtrɒl/) is someone who posts inflammatory,[1] extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as a forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking readers into an emotional response[2] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.[3] The noun troll may also refer to the provocative message itself, as in: 'That was an excellent troll you posted.' "
this is why you can't have a discussion with people; they can't even read a simple definition properly
I think you need to look up the definition of "or". Particularly how it contrasts with the word "and".
neither criteria fit the thread or the posts
i can do skype reading comprehension and critical thinking lessons for a nominal fee if u guys want; could be really beneficial to ur future
Only do shift first
Never research mines first
Always place a third hive as soon as you can
Fade eggs are worthless
Don't get jetpacks, go straight to dual exos
and other ridiculous "absolutes" that make no sense whatsoever, based on (shaky at best) anecdotal evidence. I'm against absolutes, but at least this one is grounded in reality. And anything to stop the never ending flow of celerity first games.
"In Internet slang, a troll (pron.: /ˈtroʊl/, /ˈtrɒl/) is someone who posts inflammatory,[1] extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as a forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking readers into an emotional response[2] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.[3] The noun troll may also refer to the provocative message itself, as in: 'That was an excellent troll you posted.' "
plz demonstrate the trolls in this thread
Inflammatory.
Telling people they are stupid is not inflammatory now?
See my previous 2 posts in this topic outlining why the attitude you both show in this thread stinks.
"In Internet slang, a troll (pron.: /ˈtroʊl/, /ˈtrɒl/) is someone who posts inflammatory,[1] extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as a forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking readers into an emotional response[2] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.[3] The noun troll may also refer to the provocative message itself, as in: 'That was an excellent troll you posted.' "
this is why you can't have a discussion with people; they can't even read a simple definition properly
I think you need to look up the definition of "or". Particularly how it contrasts with the word "and".
neither criteria fit the thread or the posts
So you don't view this as a disruption of normal, on-topic discussion?
Oh wait wait wait, let me guess. Its not you, its us. Right?
Only do shift first
Never research mines first
Always place a third hive as soon as you can
Fade eggs are worthless
Don't get jetpacks, go straight to dual exos
and other ridiculous "absolutes" that make no sense whatsoever, based on (shaky at best) anecdotal evidence. I'm against absolutes, but at least this one is grounded in reality. And anything to stop the never ending flow of celerity first games.
Only do shift first
Considering the skill level of the average public player, aliens tend to lose eggs fast, which can get them in trouble.
Grounded in reality.
Never research mines first
Aliens in public games rarely if every do coordinated pushes. Marines in public games will also tend to blow all their resources on anything they can buy, all the time.
Grounded in reality.
Always place a third hive as soon as you can
Two hive aliens will almost always lose against 2 tech point marines in public games.
Grounded in reality.
Fade eggs are worthless
Have you seen the average player with a fade?
Grounded in reality.
Don't get jetpacks, go straight to dual exos
Exos have a higher skill floor than jetpacks. Which is good for the aforementioned topic of average skill level.
Grounded in reality.
You may not consider these "correct" by some arbitrary standard of correctness, but that doesn't mean they don't all have a logical basis.
So basically you a couple of nobodys + locklear = right? You havn't destroyed the what about 24person server point, you briefly addressed it in a one liner and then moved back to LOL NOBODY KNOWS ME BUT MY MOM TOLD ME IM GUD AT GAMES AND I WRITE IN CAPS SO IM RIGHT.
Your posts are obviously inflammatory in nature, thus you are a troll, stop trying so hard ffs..
There are plenty of things that have distinct, obvious answers with no shades of gray. Crag hive being categorically better than shift is (as of this patch) one of those things.
Not the point I was making. I was talking about you saying that anyone that disagrees with you is bad at this game. Is that one of those things that has a distinct, obvious answer?
If you want to talk about things with obvious answers, where is the proof that supports your claim? Certainly something that is distinct and obvious has tons of empirical evidence to back it up.
You most likely are correct, but without proof, you cannot say anything with certainty. Confidence and even competence, are not proof. I don't take things on faith. So until you provide proof, your opinion is no more valid than anyone else's. Period.
If you do not have empirical proof then you should have the decency and honesty to preface everything with, "In my opinion..." or "In my experience..."
You claim to be familair with the academic world but if you were to speak to any scientist and flatly state something as true with no evidence to back you up, you'd be laughed out of the room. And rightly so.
Always place a third hive as soon as you can
Two hive aliens will almost always lose against 2 tech point marines in public games.
Grounded in reality.
Not necessarily so. Aliens can win quite frequently with just tier 2 abilities, shift/crag evolutions and pres onos. Rush a base, force a beacon, hit the other base, repeat until you succeed. And yes.. this is on public servers (20 - 24).
"In Internet slang, a troll (pron.: /ˈtroʊl/, /ˈtrɒl/) is someone who posts inflammatory,[1] extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as a forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking readers into an emotional response[2] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.[3] The noun troll may also refer to the provocative message itself, as in: 'That was an excellent troll you posted.' "
plz demonstrate the trolls in this thread
Inflammatory.
Telling people they are stupid is not inflammatory now?
See my previous 2 posts in this topic outlining why the attitude you both show in this thread stinks.
"In Internet slang, a troll (pron.: /ˈtroʊl/, /ˈtrɒl/) is someone who posts inflammatory,[1] extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as a forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking readers into an emotional response[2] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.[3] The noun troll may also refer to the provocative message itself, as in: 'That was an excellent troll you posted.' "
this is why you can't have a discussion with people; they can't even read a simple definition properly
I think you need to look up the definition of "or". Particularly how it contrasts with the word "and".
neither criteria fit the thread or the posts
i can do skype reading comprehension and critical thinking lessons for a nominal fee if u guys want; could be really beneficial to ur future
That would be "you" and "your," and thanks for the generous offer, but I believe that any interference from you is unlikely to aid me in the slightest. For now I am content to continue discovering and developing anti-cancer drugs while working towards a professorship of my own.
As you failed to understand previously, allow me to help you once again, as I can't rule out the possibility that my explanation was not sufficiently clear.
The very title of this thread "... terrible alien commanding." is clearly designed to be inflammatory, with the express purpose of invoking an emotional response (which would be something like "he called me a terrible commander but he doesn't know the first thing about me"). Additional, seemingly throwaway comments from both you and the OP (I am giving you the benefit of the doubt by assuming you aren't the same person) along the lines of "I know much more than you" or "I'm a better player than you will ever be" are clearly also troll comments, by your own definition. If you cannot see how such comments are designed to elicit an angry response from the person to whom they are directed, then perhaps my efforts here are truly futile.
You may think you're clever, indeed you might be cleverer than average; however, without humility, you just come across as an idiot with far too high an opinion of yourself.
While I absolutely agree that crag first is best, when played correctly, I also happen to think that it gets boring in pub servers always playing the same tech path. It can be fun to challenge yourself by choosing a weaker upgrade, which helps to keep the game fresh. Does this constitute terrible Allen commanding? Like doing a gorge rush, or taking silence first to see if you can still beat the other team? Clearly not, but there is no scope for such frivolity in the stance displayed in the OP.
Whether you like it or not, there are people out there who don't play to win by the most efficient route only. Some people find fun in other ways, and you have absolutely no right to dictate how they do this, and no right to accuse them of being stupid for the same reason. I happen not to be one of them: I do play to win, and I play to improve my game and learn. I'm not the best NS2 player out there, but I can strive to get at least competent. Does that mean I'm a lesser human being than fana or tane? Absolutely not, just as they are not lesser human beings for not solving the 3D structure of proteins to elucidate the binding mode of drugs in a bid to develop more potent analogues.
You want to lecture me on reasoning and logic, but from at least some of what you say, there is little chance that you even grasp the basics of logic.
A far better way to get the message across is with politeness and respect. As I said in my first post, which you have carefully ignored, by being deliberately inflammatory in the way you interact with people on these forums does no good to the community, which does no good to the game's future, and also does no good to how anyone else views you as a person. I listen to nothing that Simon Cowell says for precisely the same reason.
You may not consider these "correct" by some arbitrary standard of correctness, but that doesn't mean they don't all have a logical basis.
The problem I have is the fervor in which they are defended as an absolute. Out of context, many of those can seem outright ridiculous to someone with experience. In the right circumstances, they're perfectly legitimate. Same thing with this thread, but let's be clear, it's much closer to reason than the examples I posted (which are actual things I have heard, time and time again).
And I'm really tired of always getting celerity first. Really tired.
You may not consider these "correct" by some arbitrary standard of correctness, but that doesn't mean they don't all have a logical basis.
The problem I have is the fervor in which they are defended as an absolute. Out of context, many of those can seem outright ridiculous to someone with experience. In the right circumstances, they're perfectly legitimate. Same thing with this thread, but let's be clear, it's much closer to reason than the examples I posted (which are actual things I have heard, time and time again).
And I'm really tired of always getting celerity first. Really tired.
Yep. That tiredness of celerity first combined with not getting carapace until 8-9 minutes is what prompted this thread. Also, Simon Cowell is awesome. He was the only redeeming factor on American Idol because he was the only judge who would flat out call contestants on terrible performances. He was the only reason to watch that show.
Comments
I'm pretty sure everyone with actual skill in this thread (ie: IAMKING/Locklear) supports the premise of the OP. :]
What is your proof for this? You seem to be saying that going Crag first would enable a team that is not as skilled to win. If upgrade chosen is the determining factor, then this isn't a game, it's a choose your own adventure story with predetermined outcomes arising from a few simple choices.
You state your point as if it is obvious, but I don't see any evidence to support you beyond your own opinion. Are there any statistics on alien win rate vs first upgrade chosen?
I'm not saying your position isn't logical, just that you are claiming something as fact without any proof. That is intellectually dishonest.
Also, if the stats were to prove that the majority of alien wins came with shift first, would that change your mind? If not, what level of proof would be required to change your mind?
If you want to have this debate, you need to set some ground rules as to what level of proof is required to change your opinion. Being completely unwilling to change your mind and constantly repeating that you are right is not a discussion, it's a diatribe. Which is fine, but let people know up front that you are completely close minded to the subject so they know not to waste time discussing it with you.
I think you need to look up the definition of "or". Particularly how it contrasts with the word "and".
i can do skype reading comprehension and critical thinking lessons for a nominal fee if u guys want; could be really beneficial to ur future
Only do shift first
Never research mines first
Always place a third hive as soon as you can
Fade eggs are worthless
Don't get jetpacks, go straight to dual exos
and other ridiculous "absolutes" that make no sense whatsoever, based on (shaky at best) anecdotal evidence. I'm against absolutes, but at least this one is grounded in reality. And anything to stop the never ending flow of celerity first games.
So you don't view this as a disruption of normal, on-topic discussion?
Oh wait wait wait, let me guess. Its not you, its us. Right?
Only do shift first
Considering the skill level of the average public player, aliens tend to lose eggs fast, which can get them in trouble.
Grounded in reality.
Never research mines first
Aliens in public games rarely if every do coordinated pushes. Marines in public games will also tend to blow all their resources on anything they can buy, all the time.
Grounded in reality.
Always place a third hive as soon as you can
Two hive aliens will almost always lose against 2 tech point marines in public games.
Grounded in reality.
Fade eggs are worthless
Have you seen the average player with a fade?
Grounded in reality.
Don't get jetpacks, go straight to dual exos
Exos have a higher skill floor than jetpacks. Which is good for the aforementioned topic of average skill level.
Grounded in reality.
You may not consider these "correct" by some arbitrary standard of correctness, but that doesn't mean they don't all have a logical basis.
Your posts are obviously inflammatory in nature, thus you are a troll, stop trying so hard ffs..
Not the point I was making. I was talking about you saying that anyone that disagrees with you is bad at this game. Is that one of those things that has a distinct, obvious answer?
If you want to talk about things with obvious answers, where is the proof that supports your claim? Certainly something that is distinct and obvious has tons of empirical evidence to back it up.
You most likely are correct, but without proof, you cannot say anything with certainty. Confidence and even competence, are not proof. I don't take things on faith. So until you provide proof, your opinion is no more valid than anyone else's. Period.
If you do not have empirical proof then you should have the decency and honesty to preface everything with, "In my opinion..." or "In my experience..."
You claim to be familair with the academic world but if you were to speak to any scientist and flatly state something as true with no evidence to back you up, you'd be laughed out of the room. And rightly so.
Not necessarily so. Aliens can win quite frequently with just tier 2 abilities, shift/crag evolutions and pres onos. Rush a base, force a beacon, hit the other base, repeat until you succeed. And yes.. this is on public servers (20 - 24).
That would be "you" and "your," and thanks for the generous offer, but I believe that any interference from you is unlikely to aid me in the slightest. For now I am content to continue discovering and developing anti-cancer drugs while working towards a professorship of my own.
As you failed to understand previously, allow me to help you once again, as I can't rule out the possibility that my explanation was not sufficiently clear.
The very title of this thread "... terrible alien commanding." is clearly designed to be inflammatory, with the express purpose of invoking an emotional response (which would be something like "he called me a terrible commander but he doesn't know the first thing about me"). Additional, seemingly throwaway comments from both you and the OP (I am giving you the benefit of the doubt by assuming you aren't the same person) along the lines of "I know much more than you" or "I'm a better player than you will ever be" are clearly also troll comments, by your own definition. If you cannot see how such comments are designed to elicit an angry response from the person to whom they are directed, then perhaps my efforts here are truly futile.
You may think you're clever, indeed you might be cleverer than average; however, without humility, you just come across as an idiot with far too high an opinion of yourself.
While I absolutely agree that crag first is best, when played correctly, I also happen to think that it gets boring in pub servers always playing the same tech path. It can be fun to challenge yourself by choosing a weaker upgrade, which helps to keep the game fresh. Does this constitute terrible Allen commanding? Like doing a gorge rush, or taking silence first to see if you can still beat the other team? Clearly not, but there is no scope for such frivolity in the stance displayed in the OP.
Whether you like it or not, there are people out there who don't play to win by the most efficient route only. Some people find fun in other ways, and you have absolutely no right to dictate how they do this, and no right to accuse them of being stupid for the same reason. I happen not to be one of them: I do play to win, and I play to improve my game and learn. I'm not the best NS2 player out there, but I can strive to get at least competent. Does that mean I'm a lesser human being than fana or tane? Absolutely not, just as they are not lesser human beings for not solving the 3D structure of proteins to elucidate the binding mode of drugs in a bid to develop more potent analogues.
You want to lecture me on reasoning and logic, but from at least some of what you say, there is little chance that you even grasp the basics of logic.
A far better way to get the message across is with politeness and respect. As I said in my first post, which you have carefully ignored, by being deliberately inflammatory in the way you interact with people on these forums does no good to the community, which does no good to the game's future, and also does no good to how anyone else views you as a person. I listen to nothing that Simon Cowell says for precisely the same reason.
The problem I have is the fervor in which they are defended as an absolute. Out of context, many of those can seem outright ridiculous to someone with experience. In the right circumstances, they're perfectly legitimate. Same thing with this thread, but let's be clear, it's much closer to reason than the examples I posted (which are actual things I have heard, time and time again).
And I'm really tired of always getting celerity first. Really tired.
Yep. That tiredness of celerity first combined with not getting carapace until 8-9 minutes is what prompted this thread. Also, Simon Cowell is awesome. He was the only redeeming factor on American Idol because he was the only judge who would flat out call contestants on terrible performances. He was the only reason to watch that show.