(!) Let's enjoy playing NS2 once again. AltBalance.

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  • Ghosthree3Ghosthree3 Join Date: 2010-02-13 Member: 70557Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    I like NS2 just the way it is.
  • halfofaheavenhalfofaheaven Join Date: 2012-11-09 Member: 168660Members, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Gold
    edited February 2013
    Savant wrote: »
    I don't see what has some people bugged about this. It's just a mod. Either people will like it and play it or they won't like it and won't play it. Modding is part of this game, and people are free to mod what they want. No one is forcing anyone to play it.
    It's the attitude the mod was presented with, like it was the be all end all hands down fix for NS2 when in reality a lot of people will think nearly all of the changes are either irrelevant or plain stupid. The guy has since become more modest and is listening to people's suggestions so whatever really.

  • BigTracerBigTracer Join Date: 2012-12-04 Member: 174169Members
    Savant wrote: »
    I don't see what has some people bugged about this. It's just a mod. Either people will like it and play it or they won't like it and won't play it. Modding is part of this game, and people are free to mod what they want. No one is forcing anyone to play it.
    It's the attitude the mod was presented with, like it was the be all end all hands down fix for NS2 when in reality a lot of people will think nearly all of the changes are either irrelevant or plain stupid. The guy has since become more modest and is listening to people's suggestions so whatever really.

    I was MODest. Of course I listen cause people give reasonable arguements. And btw, I haven't thrown out a single feature from my list. I reshaped some of them, but my points are still on.

    Let's not give marks now. I need to think of stuff first. Skulks will get their jumps back, but not as they were before.
  • xDragonxDragon Join Date: 2012-04-04 Member: 149948Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited February 2013
    You may think you have a 'balance sense' but your really just tweaking small features to fix issues you percieve to be tipping the balance. Your ignoring major changes which are needed to fix alien pres income issues, alien movement, spawn times for both teams, alien tres surplus issues, overall low cost of marine tech, turtling power of marines and many other smaller issues like misplaced alien abilities or alien upgrades that are not nearly as useful as say carapace. Adjusting turrets, mines and whips are probably the last things that need to be more powerful, and NS2 already suffers from becoming a player vs static defense struggle late game, that doesnt need to be reinforced.
  • FlipperFlipper Join Date: 2012-08-08 Member: 155120Members
    xDragon wrote: »
    You may think you have a 'balance sense' but your really just tweaking small features to fix issues you percieve to be tipping the balance. Your ignoring major changes which are needed to fix alien pres income issues, alien movement, spawn times for both teams, alien tres surplus issues, overall low cost of marine tech, turtling power of marines and many other smaller issues like misplaced alien abilities or alien upgrades that are not nearly as useful as say carapace. Adjusting turrets, mines and whips are probably the last things that need to be more powerful, and NS2 already suffers from becoming a player vs static defense struggle late game, that doesnt need to be reinforced.

    Basically he's nerfing skulks, and buffing defences for both sides... stalemate incoming.
  • |strofix||strofix| Join Date: 2012-11-01 Member: 165453Members
    Savant wrote: »
    I don't see what has some people bugged about this. It's just a mod. Either people will like it and play it or they won't like it and won't play it. Modding is part of this game, and people are free to mod what they want. No one is forcing anyone to play it.
    It's the attitude the mod was presented with, like it was the be all end all hands down fix for NS2 when in reality a lot of people will think nearly all of the changes are either irrelevant or plain stupid. The guy has since become more modest and is listening to people's suggestions so whatever really.

    This is how you perceived it. Its basically a form of projection, because you see these qualities in yourself and expect them to exist in others.

  • SavantSavant Join Date: 2002-11-30 Member: 10289Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
    Savant wrote: »
    I don't see what has some people bugged about this. It's just a mod. Either people will like it and play it or they won't like it and won't play it.
    It's the attitude the mod was presented with...
    Let me stop you right there though. With respect, it's just a MOD. Have you seen the mods out there? Combat, and now MvM (marine versus marine)? That's just the tip of the iceberg.

    Like I said further up, the mod will sink or swim based on how it is received by people who play it. If it's not fun, people won't play. It's really that simple. If, by chance, a modder hits on something that becomes popular, then it may have a chance of getting in the game. However, even in that case, it can take ages before the developers roll something into the game.

    In the meanwhile, this is still just a mod. People have become extremely oversensitive when it comes to balance, and frankly I think having divergent balance paths is a good thing. UWE can only explore one path at a time.

    It's like 24 player servers - some people call them abominations, but the reality is that they are the most popular servers in NS2, despite the fact that some people suggest that balance is even worse on those servers. That's because, as I said before, it's about what is FUN to play. People will play what is fun. Let them vote with their disconnect buttons.
  • BigTracerBigTracer Join Date: 2012-12-04 Member: 174169Members
    xDragon wrote: »
    You may think you have a 'balance sense' but your really just tweaking small features to fix issues you percieve to be tipping the balance. Your ignoring major changes which are needed to fix alien pres income issues, alien movement, spawn times for both teams, alien tres surplus issues, overall low cost of marine tech, turtling power of marines and many other smaller issues like misplaced alien abilities or alien upgrades that are not nearly as useful as say carapace. Adjusting turrets, mines and whips are probably the last things that need to be more powerful, and NS2 already suffers from becoming a player vs static defense struggle late game, that doesnt need to be reinforced.

    Dude. Yesterday. Mod got released yesterday. Of course I'm going to adress these major issues. Thanks for pointing them out in a short story, btw.
  • BigTracerBigTracer Join Date: 2012-12-04 Member: 174169Members
    Flipper wrote: »
    xDragon wrote: »
    You may think you have a 'balance sense' but your really just tweaking small features to fix issues you percieve to be tipping the balance. Your ignoring major changes which are needed to fix alien pres income issues, alien movement, spawn times for both teams, alien tres surplus issues, overall low cost of marine tech, turtling power of marines and many other smaller issues like misplaced alien abilities or alien upgrades that are not nearly as useful as say carapace. Adjusting turrets, mines and whips are probably the last things that need to be more powerful, and NS2 already suffers from becoming a player vs static defense struggle late game, that doesnt need to be reinforced.

    Basically he's nerfing skulks, and buffing defences for both sides... stalemate incoming.

    Give me at least a day or two to think about stuff. I was mostly working with code last days and couldn't analyze everything. I don't like turtling and will to try to beat it in a smart way.
  • IronHorseIronHorse Developer, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributor Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
    Savant wrote: »
    In the meanwhile, this is still just a mod. People have become extremely oversensitive when it comes to balance
    Like I said, I hope he has thick skin! Lol

    Good on ya, Tracer, and keep reading. :)
  • xDragonxDragon Join Date: 2012-04-04 Member: 149948Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited February 2013
    The reason why is this is a bad idea, and why any other mods like this have either failed or not been played, is because of a couple reasons. You will never get everyone to agree on the changes, plain and simple. These changes will only ever be run on a minority if any servers, and only serve to divide a playerbase that is already hugely split. Other issues range from people joining the server running this, having no idea its running or what is changed, and quickly becoming frustrated because 'something' is different, and disconnecting, to people flat out quitting the game because they percieve the changes to be part of vanilla. Balance mods are really an area that are best avoided, take that from someone who has made several iterations of said mods, some of which were quite successful for a time. In the end, your playing with a fire that you have no control over.
  • OutlawDrOutlawDr Join Date: 2009-06-21 Member: 67887Members
    edited February 2013
    Presentation is key

    I don't think I'd ever make a "balance" mod. I would have presented it as a mod to test out ideas and see if anyone else is interested in testing out these ideas.

    Some people might find these ideas to be misguided or too narrow/small to be worth the effort, but it would sit better with people than coming out and saying I'm making a mod to balance and fix the game. It just sounds too arrogant and overreaching.
  • BigTracerBigTracer Join Date: 2012-12-04 Member: 174169Members
    edited February 2013
    ALLLLLLLLLRIGHTY. Here's an updated and complete Feature list: Latest patch included.
    Features:
    -Aliens-
    1. No more glancing bites for skulks. Movement system back to original, for now. Xenocide - 300 damage, but smaller radius.
    2. Bilebomb: -33% damage. Gorge is reworked to be less dependent on carapace. 15 clogs.
    3. Whip's Bombard is now free to evolve and deals some heavy type damage.
    4. Hallucinations have 30% of original hp.
    5. Adjusted costs of Chambers and Evolutions: 10 res to give more freedom in starting build orders.
    6. Carapace is slightly nerfed. 700 armor for Onos.
    7. Crags only heal up to 65% of your constitution.

    -Marines-
    1. Sentries depend on electricity and have 360 degree awareness. 2 per room.
    2. Batteries work as small reserve power sources for structures. 1 per room, small radius.
    3. Mines trigger faster.
    4. Slightly higher jetpack acceleration.
    5. ARCs HP reduced to 1500.
    6. Nanoshield: 35% dmg reduction and 60 sec cooldown.
    7. Exos crush cysts.
    8. Marine tech tree cost slightly reduced to give more freedom in starting build orders.

    As you see, no additional turtling here. Now we can try it out, I say.


    I adressed most small crittical issues and finally can dive into theorycrafting to catch something big.
  • OutlawDrOutlawDr Join Date: 2009-06-21 Member: 67887Members
    Something you need to put down is what exactly are the problems/issues these changes set to solve.
  • BigTracerBigTracer Join Date: 2012-12-04 Member: 174169Members
    xDragon wrote: »
    and only serve to divide a playerbase that is already hugely split.

    I see two large groups. First one - random guys should go #### themselves and not touch balance. And the second, bigger one - that is NOT satisfied with current balance and is open to try something new that sounds reasonable.
    take that from someone who has made several iterations of said mods, some of which were quite successful for a time.

    I've got my own contrary experience. I'll keep working on that mod.
    In the end, your playing with a fire that you have no control over.
    That's too much drama. I better have some more mainstream harlem shake.
  • BigTracerBigTracer Join Date: 2012-12-04 Member: 174169Members
    edited February 2013
    OutlawDr wrote: »
    Something you need to put down is what exactly are the problems/issues these changes set to solve.

    Let's see.

    I want to balance skulk vs marine 1on1 combat. Without glancing blows that should be pretty good.

    I want to add more diversity to early game build orders - done. And game in general.

    OPed stuff like Bilebomb and Carapace got worked on. Also, look at that new Crag. Just think of all these sweet consequences. ARCs hp went down to fit nerfed bilebomb.

    Try to connect those features and you will see logic behind them.


    Short story - diversity and balance.
  • WhiteWeaselWhiteWeasel Join Date: 2012-11-25 Member: 173197Members
    BigTracer wrote: »
    7. Crags only heal up to 65% of your constitution.

    Looks like I'm not the only one who plays D&D here.
  • BigTracerBigTracer Join Date: 2012-12-04 Member: 174169Members
    Now Regeneration is more valuable.
    Want to stay fit all the time - pick regen. Want to have more armor AND stay fit - use cooperation.

    Crags healing only up to 65% health strikes down aliens' turtling capabilities. I think it's a good one.
  • BigTracerBigTracer Join Date: 2012-12-04 Member: 174169Members
    edited February 2013
  • xDragonxDragon Join Date: 2012-04-04 Member: 149948Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow
    Best of luck to you then, your going to need it.
  • Kouji_SanKouji_San Sr. Hινε Uρкεερεг - EUPT Deputy The Netherlands Join Date: 2003-05-13 Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
    Have you tested these changes in game yet or is it all just theory crafting? I mean all these changes can have severe impacts on things you haven't imagined. Which only show up from extensive playtesting...
  • BigTracerBigTracer Join Date: 2012-12-04 Member: 174169Members
    Kouji_San wrote: »
    Have you tested these changes in game yet or is it all just theory crafting? I mean all these changes can have severe impacts on things you haven't imagined. Which only show up from extensive playtesting...

    It is theorycrafting. I'm getting a hosting so we could try it out.
  • Lt. LizardLt. Lizard Join Date: 2012-11-06 Member: 167595Members
    edited February 2013
    I'm curious about the change that allows sentry battery to power nearby buildings regardless of power node and would probably probably play the mod just to see the impact it has on gameplay.

    I mean it seems like obvious "fix" to marines over-dependency on power node, so I want to see the catch that makes in non-viable, if it has any.

    Outside of that, I'm afraid I'm not really interested in/agree with any other balance tweaks in the mod.
  • IndustryIndustry Esteemed Gentleman Join Date: 2010-07-13 Member: 72344Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Supporter
    Lt. Lizard wrote: »
    I'm curious about the change that allows sentry battery to power nearby buildings regardless of power node and would probably probably play the mod just to see the impact it has on gameplay.

    I mean it seems like obvious "fix" to marines over-dependency on power node, so I want to see the catch that makes in non-viable, if it has any.

    Outside of that, I'm afraid I'm not really interested in/agree with any other balance tweaks in the mod.

    The power pack was in the game at one point during the beta but was removed. Just an FYI. (That was the sentry battery model's original purpose)
  • BigTracerBigTracer Join Date: 2012-12-04 Member: 174169Members
    Kouji_San wrote: »
    Have you tested these changes in game yet or is it all just theory crafting? I mean all these changes can have severe impacts on things you haven't imagined. Which only show up from extensive playtesting...

    Addition: It is theorycrafting. But these changes don't affect complicated things like economy model directly and I can easily foresee all the consequences.

    Lt. Lizard wrote: »
    I'm curious about the change that allows sentry battery to power nearby buildings regardless of power node and would probably probably play the mod just to see the impact it has on gameplay.

    I mean it seems like obvious "fix" to marines over-dependency on power node, so I want to see the catch that makes in non-viable, if it has any.

    Outside of that, I'm afraid I'm not really interested in/agree with any other balance tweaks in the mod.

    I want it too. Battery should allow marines agressive expansion. And it should be good against power node gg issue.
  • BigTracerBigTracer Join Date: 2012-12-04 Member: 174169Members
    Also, such a tiny thing as "Exos can crush cysts." makes even 50 res exo a scarry thing for aliens, if left at their base unnoticed for like 30 seconds. It always bothered me I couldn't crush these tiny things with metal half-ton legs.
  • BigTracerBigTracer Join Date: 2012-12-04 Member: 174169Members
    edited February 2013
    Okay, I ordered a dedicated server, so we're gonna have place to hang out.

    I need to soak as much info from that thread as possible for further major changes. Yet I don't want to ruin assymetrical distinctive gameplay.
  • ManwichManwich Join Date: 2013-02-01 Member: 182715Members
    edited February 2013
    BigTracer wrote: »

    Addition: It is theorycrafting. But these changes don't affect complicated things like economy model directly and I can easily foresee all the consequences.

    I have no qualms with what you're doing, and I think it's always a good thing for independent modders to try out different balancing factors in games. But this quote above alone makes me doubt your ability to rebalance the game effectively - nobody can foresee all the consequences and you'd best acknowledge that.
  • BigTracerBigTracer Join Date: 2012-12-04 Member: 174169Members
    Manwich wrote: »
    BigTracer wrote: »

    Addition: It is theorycrafting. But these changes don't affect complicated things like economy model directly and I can easily foresee all the consequences.

    I have no qualms with what you're doing, and I think it's always a good thing for independent modders to try out different balancing factors in games. But this quote above alone makes me doubt your ability to rebalance the game effectively - nobody can foresee all the consequences and you'd best acknowledge that.

    There weren't any complicated changes with multioptional consequences. Of course, some might slip away, but nothing critical at current depth of moding.
  • Lt. LizardLt. Lizard Join Date: 2012-11-06 Member: 167595Members
    Industry wrote: »
    The power pack was in the game at one point during the beta but was removed. Just an FYI. (That was the sentry battery model's original purpose)

    Huh, interesting.

    Do you remember why it was removed from the game in the end? I am pretty curious about this.
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