Making them cheap is mandatory for this to work, since lots of temp-gorging is the only way it will be bearable. Otherwise one dude has to stay Gorge and do nothing but babysit the comm's structures.
I don't like it tbh, I don't see how this is going to improve the game. It just feels like a shackle on the players. The difference with marines is that any of them can build at any time - skulks have to stop what they're doing, evolve to Gorge, build it, evolve back... It's a pain in the butt.
It's not really unfair seeing as there were several people from your team saying it. I haven't really read everything in this thread, but except for people wanting armory healing from the armory, you guys are the only ones that I have seen complaining about the mod, thats all I'm saying.
I've only played the mod twice, and it thoroughly confused me - but then that can be expected with these amount of changes.
I haven't really heard anyone from my team talking about the balance mod much other than a couple of times, the most I have ever spoken to my team about it is now since you razed this comment. I am happy that someone is looking to improve the game, but concerned that too many changes may be made. But the reason that I have not commented on this thread is because I haven't played it a great deal, and don't really have any opinion on it.
From having spoken to our players the only concern is that if many changes are made, and the game is not re-marketed then you may lose members due to the fact that the existing players either have to relearn the game or stop playing - inevitably there will be people that do and don't like any major update - and without any fresh marketing etc I don't see how the current community won't decrease significantly - regardless of if the mod is, in any individuals opinion, a success or not.
I hope for the best and am open minded as towards the changes made.
I'm a little bit concerned about this mod going official. And I know I'm not the only one. Many of the changes in the BT mod are
great, some of the changes not so much, but that isn't the point of this
post.
NS2 already has a fairly small playerbase, with a peak of ~1200 over this last weekend, and only ~925 last night. With player counts so low, we really can't afford to lose/alienate anyone... and this mod is probably going to do that. I think it's pretty safe to say that 75+% of players don't have any idea these changes are coming, and the changes completely overhaul how the game works. Aren't we running the risk of completely killing the game?
It will be fine, I assume it to be marketed similar to Gorgeous once it gets released.
There are players who embrace constant updates and another big update that changes a lot of stuff around might get some people to give the game a try again.
I think they should be very careful about changes that could be perceived as dramatic nerfs(like the Gorge change). Other than that though, conservative half-measures are not the way to renew community interest in the game. You need something big to pique the interest of people who aren't playing now.
wiry, you seem to have a Quake background so i will use a comparable example - do you think it would have been wise of id software to change baseq3 into CPM 6 months after release? it doesnt matter that CPM is a better game - imo anyway - but forcing a drastic change like that will never be well received - harming both the public and competitive scene. if balance mod is so awesome and really adds something compelling, it will gain popularity separately. the best possible outcome from this is a community split in two, with an overall lower population. surely thats not a good thing?
I didn't like the idea of reducing the structure build time and forcing players to temp gorge, but allowing drifters to speed the build process is a pretty good idea.
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
Sorry, thelawenforcer, but your argument holds little weight. NS1 had a similarly big patch (2.0) released within almost exactly the same timefrime as the planned release of the NS2 "balance mod patch", with similarly large changes to gameplay, and it did not hurt the playerbase at all. If anything, the repeated releases of significant gameplay changes over the years probably helped keep the playerbase alive, as big changes bring players back and new players in.
I don't agree with all the changes currently in the balance mod, and from what I can see it still requires a lot of tweaking (lerk movement in particular), but this patch is a good thing for the community and sooner is better than later.
What is your issue with the lerk? I tried it last week and found it difficult trying to stay on target while circling some one using spikes.. I also didn't like that the duck key didn't drop you out of the sky nearly as fast but I believe that specifically wasn't intended to change.
No, it seems the Lerk is slower. In live, when you initially lift off from the ground, you're able to reach 12 speed as it gradually ticks to 11 while gliding. in the balance mod, this initial "liftoff" speed is not there, and you can simply glide forever at a constant speed. I mostly saw that as a positive feature, as you would see good Lerks often land around corners for example to try to "pick up" more speed before going in for a bite, for example. I don't necessarily agree with the viewpoint that gliding needs a nerf from its live build implementation, but this seems to accomplish the exact opposite.
I dislike that you basically lose all of your speed when you collide with something while gliding. Is that the idea? it certainly makes it more of a risk, it's definitely not going to be as easy to swoop in for bites. it's already quite rare for Lerks to go in for bites. I don't know if that kind of play should be discouraged (I find it more interesting and dynamic than spiking from afar). If this is a side-effect of preventing the "shark lerk", is it possible to make it not lose speed when you collide with entities? Or is this an intentional feature to prevent pancaking from being so easy? Perhaps it should have a small grace period where if you collide and then react instantly you're able to retain some momentum.
This alone will make flapping incredibly important, and I don't know if further adjustments to energy, flap force etc. are neceessary until we see this in play.
edit: some further discussion (i.e. me monologuing):
[quote]gliss basically when you start flying
when you lift off
your max speed reaches 12.6 and it gradually ticks down as you glide or whatever
this led to really clever lerks who would abuse it and land often during combat for bites or around corners and overall fly with a lot higher speed
it's a full speed lower now without it
so now going in for bites is incredibly risky
because you don't have that burst of speed
it's too easy to shoot now
and it's not when you shark only, it's whn you lift off period
so you could fly up instantly with 12.6 speed and swoop down for example
idk it added a lot of dynamics to flying and it was nice to see good lerks use it
and it discouraged just gliding
because you'd have to keep "lifting off" very once in a while to maintain it
so why not keep that in
the game is basically balanced around a lerk of that speed at this point
(Dragon) to me, thats a bug and should be fixed
if the lerk proves too slow, its base speed should be increased, or mechanics added to exceed the base speed slightly
having a mechanic where you land and takeoff quickly isnt really skill based
gliss strafe accel :^D
well arguing outside of a bug
because i think from a gameplay perspective, it makes at least a decent amount of sense
the question is if it adds a lot to gameplay, if it's necessary, etc
q3/q2 strafe accel would work amazingly for lerk tbh
or diving adding temporary speed increase
i don't mind either way, but i think the gameplay has lent itself to a lerk of that speed
so i think it's necessary
and it also discourages constantly gliding and such
idk, and i think it is skill based
[/quote]
what is with these new forums why can't i quote stuff
this balance mod is borne out of the NS1 communities general dissatisfaction with certain mechanics and differences in NS2. this is so obvious and pervasive that you dont even see it anymore - thus you're claim that the NS community likes new things does not convince me. if you love new stuff so much, why are all the vets clamoring for lots of things to go back to the way they were in NS1?
NS1 when it came out was a one of its kind mod - NS2 is a full commercial product, they require different approaches so i dont think that is a fair comparison.
let me be clear, i have no opinion on the mod itself, nor do i care that it will change things (i started playing NS2 because i was looking for a change) - im just worried how such a change would be received by the wider NS2 playing public. from my experience as a player and as a mod developper is that even little changes can cause quite a scene and have quite big long term effects on player activity. It just seems like an unwarranted risk to take with a franchise that has alot more future potential.
wiry, you seem to have a Quake background so i will use a comparable example - do you think it would have been wise of id software to change baseq3 into CPM 6 months after release? it doesnt matter that CPM is a better game - imo anyway - but forcing a drastic change like that will never be well received - harming both the public and competitive scene. if balance mod is so awesome and really adds something compelling, it will gain popularity separately. the best possible outcome from this is a community split in two, with an overall lower population. surely thats not a good thing?
1. The only thing baseq3 was good for was playing against bots.
2. No one plays baseq3
3. How long do you think quake 3 would have lived without mods like OSP or CPMA?
4. Comparing baseq3 and CPM to vanilla NS2 and the Balance mod isn't a very thought out comparison. I'm guessing you are using this comparison becuase what you're the most worried about is the movement, am I right? I'm going to assume that's what you're on about anyway.
There has been several threads on this forum, the ensl forums and various other places that explain in detail why wall jumping is bad, I hope you take some time to read them, because they're quite informative, and I don't really want to start a whole new debate about it.
But lets not forget that this mod, even if it wouldn't include changes to movement, still comes with a big chunk of new stuff to improve several other aspects of the game like the alien khammander (biomass, upgrade changes), weapon changes (no glancing bites, shotgun spread) and lots of other stuff that, after having played with it for a few games, feel really solid and I really believe it will improve the longevity of the game.
I don't agree with all the choices made in the balance mod, but we have an excellent opportunity to provide feedback about what we specifically feel is going in the wrong direction, and provide opinions on alternatives. Lets not waste it by just screaming about the death of the game and how it's going to turn in to the worst game on the face of the earth.
wiry, you seem to have a Quake background so i will use a comparable example - do you think it would have been wise of id software to change baseq3 into CPM 6 months after release? it doesnt matter that CPM is a better game - imo anyway - but forcing a drastic change like that will never be well received - harming both the public and competitive scene. if balance mod is so awesome and really adds something compelling, it will gain popularity separately. the best possible outcome from this is a community split in two, with an overall lower population. surely thats not a good thing?
your analogy is better accomplished with VQ3 vs. CPM, but it's not applicable here anyway because it's being included in the entire game, not a separate mod
I would try the newer lerk gliss, as those comments were from a time when the lerk was slower. Last I tested the lerk in the balance mod, 12 speed was about the norm without celerity, with ~14 or so with celerity and many of the flight limitations have been eased.
I would be interested to hear people's specific complaints about lerk flight - Lerk was never a class I played much so while I understand the basics and mechanics of it, my use of them and knowledge of how effective they are/were/could be is not so great.
The main thing I noticed was flapping then turning somewhat quickly seemed to cause you to skid midair, which felt quite wierd.
And the comments about the game dying are really misplaced, this is an opportunity to improve the game and its depth, unless you like playing straight carapace against shotguns and upgrades every game, I cannot see why anyone wouldn't want to see things improved. IMO the real risk is leaving the game as-is, while there are certain aspects that are quite fun there are many aspects that are very out of place, and without fixing those I cannot see the game improving.
Implementing this "balance mod" right now, is the equivalent of valve trying to replace cs 1.6 with cs:source. I know with myself that I'd not have continued playing counter-strike if that had been the case.
What I'd have prefered is a gradual change where they implemented Sewleks features one at a time. If the game would then take the exact form of the current balance mod in a year or longer, so be it. But this approach is ludicrous.
When blizzard patch StarCraft, they make small changes and let people adjust to those for months before adding new stuff (with the exception of expansions ofcourse).
Back during the old days of starcraft 2, the protoss had an abillity that allowed them to storm instantly as soon as they warped in a high templar. They removed it and the entire community exploded about imbalance. Looking back at it now, it was ofcourse a stupid abillity to have to begin with - but this relatively MINOR change caused so much drama.. what do you guys really think will happen with this MAJOR change?
I've been playing this mod a lot, so don't get me wrong, I love most of these changes. But I truly hope that UWE will be very clever about how they're going to implement this, to avoid alienating more people than they will attract. But let's be honest here, who are we really going to attract with this? The people who have become bored with the game maybe? But the major reason people leave ns2 is performance, not balance or gameplay.
I really fear this change will alienate many more players than it'll attract.
Implementing this "balance mod" right now, is the equivalent of valve trying to replace cs 1.6 with cs:source. I know with myself that I'd not have continued playing counter-strike if that had been the case.
What I'd have prefered is a gradual change where they implemented Sewleks features one at a time. If the game would then take the exact form of the current balance mod in a year or longer, so be it. But this approach is ludicrous.
When blizzard patch StarCraft, they make small changes and let people adjust to those for months before adding new stuff (with the exception of expansions ofcourse).
Back during the old days of starcraft 2, the protoss had an abillity that allowed them to storm instantly as soon as they warped in a high templar. They removed it and the entire community exploded about imbalance. Looking back at it now, it was ofcourse a stupid abillity to have to begin with - but this relatively MINOR change caused so much drama.. what do you guys really think will happen with this MAJOR change?
I've been playing this mod a lot, so don't get me wrong, I love most of these changes. But I truly hope that UWE will be very clever about how they're going to implement this, to avoid alienating more people than they will attract. But let's be honest here, who are we really going to attract with this? The people who have become bored with the game maybe? But the major reason people leave ns2 is performance, not balance or gameplay.
I really fear this change will alienate many more players than it'll attract.
Read the post by fana and see why this is an incorrect viewpoint.
From my discussions with several people who keep in touch with a lot of comp ns1 players, they are interested in this balance mod and will play ns2 if it comes out soon. Performance was a big problem, but the game was also.
Those of us who are still playing are viewing this balance mod as the last chance for the game as our community (aus) comp scene has died and pubs are pretty dismal. If it does not generate interest (I think it will, like ns1 2.0 did) then we are likely moving on to other games while some already have.
If this were to be done incrementally over a long period then I would lose interest as I would for a long time still have to deal with the many things I hate in ns2 (movement, various mechanics) while we test no armory healing and other small things.
Thus game MUST be marketed in the way ns1 2.0 was, in addition to whatever they're adding in the content patch (maps, performance, etc)
ps. For those struggling with quote boxes, use the outdent function to eliminate them.
i have no particular concerns about anything in the mod, ive played it a bit, and im sure i could get used to them if i put the time in. i didnt mean *baseq3* i meant vq3 vs cpm in terms of their gameplay differences. i think the comparison works well - cpm development was driven by players that were not happy at some of the gameplay design decisions made in Q3A and is essentially a mix of the QW weaponswitching and aircontrol, Q2 strafe/trickjumping with a tweaked q3 weaponset.
i think all of us here will have played a game where the developers made sweeping changes to the detriment of the game and community. i dont want the same thing to happen to NS2.
ScatterJoin Date: 2012-09-02Member: 157341Members, Squad Five Blue
Yes please do stop. You are shitting up this thread and you haven't even played the mod?
The link you posted has a reasonable (3 pages) discussion on that very issue you try and use to support your claim that this mod will be detrimental to the game.
maybe someone can organize this by what the actual objectives of this mod are?
this isn't a mere balance tweak...
if some version of this is supposed to be the future of the game, maybe you should attempt to form some consensus around a goal / vision before nitpicking about individual changes.
in my experience after watching every promising FPS or strategy game die out, it does not matter how good you make the game design - it's about how good you make the experience of playing it.
NS2 has a lot of problems, and adding depth will help keep some players around for longer, but it needs to be done properly or it will do more harm than good.
what NS2 fails at:
introducing new players to complex mechanics
setting up a game so that the skill difference between teams is minimized
providing a game that actually works beyond 6v6
engine performance / netcode
what I like is how a lot of the complexity seems to be handled by the commander. making 1 role more inaccessible is better than affecting 100% of the players.
what you have to be careful about:
increasing inaccessibility of the game
increasing the skill gap so that it becomes even harder for teams to be fair
making combat matter more in a way where performance/netcode becomes an even bigger issue
if you're just making a mod primarily for competitive play, that's fine too... but these problems are just as bad in that scene aside from complexity of the game rules
the skill gap between teams is already too big, and the whole concept of a fast-paced precision FPS on spark is still kind of silly
oh ok, guess my troll attempt wasnt bulletproof, though the explanations arent entirely convincing.
i have played the mod actually, its fun, has some good ideas, but is far from perfect. it seems a bit overcomplicated in some thing. i was exasperated to see it so bunnyhopping reliant though - i started playing NS2 because ive been playing bunnyhopping games for years and was tired of them... but thats even not the point - its not about whether the mod is any good or not. its about replacing vanilla NS2 with the "balance mod" (i think calling it a 'promod' would be more appropriate) in one go.
from my conversations with "balance mod" proponents, there seems to have been very little consideration for the side effects and possible outcomes from going ahead with this. this adds alot of things a subset of the competitive community is asking for (mainly ns1 vets?), but the competitive community is only a small minority of NS2 players, let alone NS1 vets.
oh well, at the end of the day we are all speculating as to the outcome of doing this. I'll wait and see what happens.
- my feedback with respect to the mod:
skulk movement feels very 'light' when coming off walls. the bunnyhopping/launching off walls feels inconsistent to me aswell.
the biomass and alien upgrade system seems overly complicated. i like the change to shade and shift upgrades in general (id like to see something similar happen in vanilla or atleast bring that tech into play more).
I still can't really get the movement down. Lerk movement feels slippery, skulks movement feels unintuitive and actually slower coming from vanilla (yeah, i need to learn how to bunnyhop), fade movement I could get into, but I don't understand why ss and blink are switched in the first place. Maybe I need more practice though.
Everything else in the bt is very promising imo. Anyway, @ the naysayers, changing stuff isn't bad in itself, it depends on what is being changed. If you implement stuff that makes the game better, you're not going to alienate anyone, on the contrary. Which is why testing/feedback is so important. In any case, it's very unlikely that they'll integrate the whole of balance test at once. Most likely smaller chunks one at a time, with the biggest changes (biomass) being showcased properly beforehand.
JektJoin Date: 2012-02-05Member: 143714Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow
Anyone thinking that a revamp on the game balance will increase and retain player counts is fooling themselves. Making the game better is nice, if the game was better on release the player counts might be better now. But probably not by much. When I ask people why they don't play NS2 it's for two reasons.
1. I had no idea what was going on.
2. I got 40 fps.
Maybe if they stuck around and played for more than a few hours I'd get.
3. Every round felt the same.
4. I got sick of 40 fps.
Honestly, if there is to be any longevity of NS2 at all, a huge performance patch would need to hit at the same time as a marketed front page steam NS2 2.0 content patch with improved tutorials and a free weekend to top it all off.
this is a lifeline that will extend the death of this game (by how much is anyone's guess). What ever happens i hope there's a slight increase in player count... But without performance you ARE joking yourself that any new & ns1 vets that make a comeback will hang around.
Australia teams can barely even find a scrim 1 night out of 7 & you might get a handful of ns1 vets make a comeback for a month after BT goes live. What's the point for anyone in this community to play this game competitively.
Hi ok well you already know most of my input, but here it goes again (I just typed up everything and accidentally backpaged and lost everything.. so my entire post is less detailed than it was FML)
1) Lerk - He feels "not very responsive" his speed did increase from the previous week for sure, but he feels delayed when just flying around even with celerity; again it's going to be hard to make lerk follow a support role since now two lvl 0 lmgs can pretty much destroy him.. but this one's up in the air
2) Skulk - Even after the changes yesterday, I think the best skulk was the one we had a week ago; you could 180 off walls, feel like you're actually properly gaining speed in intervals for executing the jump properly. The skulk now just feels "meh" going near a staircase also makes you lose all your speed, and sometimes the skulk sticks walls randomly too. Also was smooth mouse movement removed? I was always doing it prior but now it feels like I can just turn my mouse as much as I want with no penalty. And this current skulk when gaining higher speeds becomes full "force" forward so he has no turn room, you can still use a wall to get him to make a turn but it feels like a boulder rolling down a hill, one direction (the best band in the world)
3) Fade - The new fade is fast, real fast. Also when you blink forward he automatically does a crouch animation (bug?) So for increased forward boost using blink for more energy seems alright. However with shadowstep it's simply too much of a boost with the speed kept after using it in air, it feels overpowered and like you'd be able to escape way too many situations where you should die. BUT I don't think it should be removed, I think the cost of shadowstep should simply be increased, so that you need to be aware of your energy management and won't be able to excessively shadowstep out of situations where you made a lot of mistakes. In doing this though adrenaline will obviously be the only upgrade path from the shift hive, not really sure if that can ever be changed. I can't see a single reason to ever use celerity on a fade -- need other players inputs on this, maybe they don't think this fade is OP.. but I do and I'm a mediocre fade
4) Onos - His attack speed seems to have decreased, and I didn't notice anything else if range increased but movement speed didn't. I feel the onos is simply too slow, without celerity he's basically a gorge without a belly slide. Also his sprint doesn't really feel like a sprint; I understand it being one full rush into one direction for a big energy cost; but it should be faster. As for his base speed I think it's too low also making celerity the only upgrade path in the shift hive
Alien com - Structures building slower seems alright, and making drifter build does too... but I just don't know how I feel about the whole thing; does anyone else think this feels "right?"
Marines - comming feels good, wish there was more to do though, maybe im just crazy but micro manage with arcs and healthpacks isnt enough for me haha
Marines feel fine, jetpacks I haven't touched in a week, last I used them they were the ones that just thrusted forward and not upward; exos felt fine and nerfed, last I saw they were 450 or 500 res? maybe less, less health, less damage, smaller bullet size, faster speed.. seems alright
this mod is being assembled for massive testing before possible implementation the game. it will be changing a lot over the next week or so, then it will be loaded onto 20+ servers for public testing and feedback.
This is my first time looking at this mod. I have to say that just about everything in it seems unnecessary. I don't feel like NS2 has seriously balance problems and this seems to just either push things back to NS1 style or just complicate them.
Comments
NS2 already has a fairly small playerbase, with a peak of ~1200 over this last weekend, and only ~925 last night. With player counts so low, we really can't afford to lose/alienate anyone... and this mod is probably going to do that. I think it's pretty safe to say that 75+% of players don't have any idea these changes are coming, and the changes completely overhaul how the game works. Aren't we running the risk of completely killing the game?
There are players who embrace constant updates and another big update that changes a lot of stuff around might get some people to give the game a try again.
Sorry, thelawenforcer, but your argument holds little weight. NS1 had a similarly big patch (2.0) released within almost exactly the same timefrime as the planned release of the NS2 "balance mod patch", with similarly large changes to gameplay, and it did not hurt the playerbase at all. If anything, the repeated releases of significant gameplay changes over the years probably helped keep the playerbase alive, as big changes bring players back and new players in.
I don't agree with all the changes currently in the balance mod, and from what I can see it still requires a lot of tweaking (lerk movement in particular), but this patch is a good thing for the community and sooner is better than later.
If you had read the thread you would know that it was a flaw in the statistics. 3.0 was very successful.
Everything else in the bt is very promising imo. Anyway, @ the naysayers, changing stuff isn't bad in itself, it depends on what is being changed. If you implement stuff that makes the game better, you're not going to alienate anyone, on the contrary. Which is why testing/feedback is so important.
1) Lerk - He feels "not very responsive" his speed did increase from the previous week for sure, but he feels delayed when just flying around even with celerity; again it's going to be hard to make lerk follow a support role since now two lvl 0 lmgs can pretty much destroy him.. but this one's up in the air
2) Skulk - Even after the changes yesterday, I think the best skulk was the one we had a week ago; you could 180 off walls, feel like you're actually properly gaining speed in intervals for executing the jump properly. The skulk now just feels "meh" going near a staircase also makes you lose all your speed, and sometimes the skulk sticks walls randomly too. Also was smooth mouse movement removed? I was always doing it prior but now it feels like I can just turn my mouse as much as I want with no penalty. And this current skulk when gaining higher speeds becomes full "force" forward so he has no turn room, you can still use a wall to get him to make a turn but it feels like a boulder rolling down a hill, one direction (the best band in the world)
3) Fade - The new fade is fast, real fast. Also when you blink forward he automatically does a crouch animation (bug?) So for increased forward boost using blink for more energy seems alright. However with shadowstep it's simply too much of a boost with the speed kept after using it in air, it feels overpowered and like you'd be able to escape way too many situations where you should die. BUT I don't think it should be removed, I think the cost of shadowstep should simply be increased, so that you need to be aware of your energy management and won't be able to excessively shadowstep out of situations where you made a lot of mistakes. In doing this though adrenaline will obviously be the only upgrade path from the shift hive, not really sure if that can ever be changed. I can't see a single reason to ever use celerity on a fade -- need other players inputs on this, maybe they don't think this fade is OP.. but I do and I'm a mediocre fade
4) Onos - His attack speed seems to have decreased, and I didn't notice anything else if range increased but movement speed didn't. I feel the onos is simply too slow, without celerity he's basically a gorge without a belly slide. Also his sprint doesn't really feel like a sprint; I understand it being one full rush into one direction for a big energy cost; but it should be faster. As for his base speed I think it's too low also making celerity the only upgrade path in the shift hive
Alien com - Structures building slower seems alright, and making drifter build does too... but I just don't know how I feel about the whole thing; does anyone else think this feels "right?"
Marines - comming feels good, wish there was more to do though, maybe im just crazy but micro manage with arcs and healthpacks isnt enough for me haha
Marines feel fine, jetpacks I haven't touched in a week, last I used them they were the ones that just thrusted forward and not upward; exos felt fine and nerfed, last I saw they were 450 or 500 res? maybe less, less health, less damage, smaller bullet size, faster speed.. seems alright