i was playing around with that now but it overlaps so much with wall jumping and, the initial wall jump is not difficult to do (simply run along a wall -> jump -> faster). but i have to say its a little bit weird that for all other classes the movement modifier key increases your speed, but for skulk it slows you down. so a flat speed increase (like +1) when holding down the button which consumes energy over time would make more sense, and use crouch instead (for all classes) for sneaking.
But you don't cling to walls when crouching.
Sometimes you need to be sneaky on the wall. Sometimes you need to move without sticking to surfaces (example which come to my mind is atrium -> crevice vent, I usually hold ctrl to fall down).
I think bunnyhopping just feels better and is more fun than live style walljump-chaining, but there are some legitimate concerns about its accessibility. I feel that the skill floor is too high - there should be a simple but limited way to gain speed easily, and then it should be more difficult to use the system to the fullest
That's how it is, once you get it down you can gain speed easily; once you really get it down you can go very fast and maneuver with it in combat. The only issue I see with it now is it's quite quiet when coming at someone full force, so a global sound needs to be there for it.. Nothing insanely loud but loud enough to know that someone is piloting the g6 into your tech point
There is no perfect time for the jumping, that is the easy access to it.. if it required perfect jumping well then it'd be limited to a select few players, literally. I'm in love with the mechanic and will defend it whole way, unless another mechanic to improve skulk is introduced. The vanilla one is just so.. not right, and I feel that if you make the bhop even EASIER than it is.. then everyone will be doing it at max speeds and I think that's a no-no, the fade however has had both the skill floor and skill ceiling raised; it's interesting and I like it but I don't mind either versions of the fade. So we'll see where that one goes!
I'm saying you shouldn't have to "get it down" just to get the most basic of speed increases. You should be able to start toying with the mechanic without consulting the forums. The higher level skill requirements should be the same as today, but there should be a beginner's version(low acceleration/max speed) that is attainable with jumping alone.
Jump from a wall = boost, you automatically get a boost, that is the initial gain, the bhop aspect is for the higher speeds, ground + ground = slowest wall+ wall = fastest / wall + floor = mix
So essentially all you need to do is exactly what you do in vanilla ns2, jump from walls and you'll gain a boost.. want to go faster? Then it's A/D with strafing, and there's no penalty for jumping ATM. You can literally jump whenever you feel you've touched the ground, no need for any type of mousewheel bind. When I first started the BT and saw this mechanic, I was lost.. couldn't get the sound to happen but just practiced it and got the hang of it to the point where I can do it every time; in fact I love the nonstop key pressing it really keeps you focused on what you're doing movement wise and learning it more and more to the point where I can actually depending on my location use it in combat to win fights
On the flip, make this mechanic too easy to gain those same higher speeds then it will be done everywhere, which is not ok.. here's an example.. what if everyone was given an aim assist.. you still need to aim, but once you go to a target it will automatically follow them (sort of like a console) then people who have a lot of experience with muscle memory/aim won't have this advantage... get what I'm saying? That's not right.. like anything playing for years and having the proper hardware you'll gain muscle memory and obviously have an advantage over another player who doesn't.. same for everything; regardless of what is added there will always be someone better at it..
Holding crouch is very important when bunnyhopping because it prevents you from sticking to walls and losing all speed. Please don't take away that ability.
Holding crouch is very important when bunnyhopping because it prevents you from sticking to walls and losing all speed. Please don't take away that ability.
??? I've never used crouch as a skulk and I wasn't aware that you could? Are you talking about fade? Fade crouching is for not hitting your head on stuff :P
however I do hate that the onos cannot crouch jump anymore
i dont see why the skulk particularly needs to have a complex acceleration mechanic, nor why limitless skulk acceleration would be a desirable thing - the skulk gameplay was designed to be played a certain way - admittedly in a different way to how it played in NS1 mind. i feel the new way to be more intuitive and 'natural and logical' to an alien while still being very entertaining.
The basic story has been that marines and their aiming skill scale far better to higher skill levels and offer more satisfying skill development in the long run. There's only that much you can do with cunning and sneakiness, especially when you're facing smart marines that understand how to limit your options for engaging.
I see skill based momevent as a way to give aliens more options, diversify their approach and new means to outplay their opponent rather than relying on them making a mistake.
I don't think it absolutely has to be an acceleration mechanic or a jump based mechanic, but coming up with decent alternatives is a huge challenge, especially now that we've got the vast majority of gameplay already set up and the mechanic has to fit into an existing context rather than everything being built up together to for a new system.
So is there like information somewhere on this mod? I really don't want to search through 50 pages in this thread for detailed explanations of the mechanics
So is there like information somewhere on this mod? I really don't want to search through 50 pages in this thread for detailed explanations of the mechanics
??? I've never used crouch as a skulk and I wasn't aware that you could? Are you talking about fade? Fade crouching is for not hitting your head on stuff :P
however I do hate that the onos cannot crouch jump anymore
I'm talking about skulks where crouch disables wall walking. It's equally important for fades for the reason you mentioned though :P
I'm getting concerned that this is becoming overly complicated for the sake of it. I get the argument about movement scaling as marine aim scales over the coming years, but that will impact on new players, and i worry that it's not intuitive. I like the suggestion of keeping ss+jump-like mechanics as a method for all alien classes to be able to gain speed. Keeping it simple and logical in its principle is important. Allowing a high skill ceiling is also important, but shouldn't be the sole factor we look at here.
i dont see why the skulk particularly needs to have a complex acceleration mechanic, nor why limitless skulk acceleration would be a desirable thing - the skulk gameplay was designed to be played a certain way - admittedly in a different way to how it played in NS1 mind. i feel the new way to be more intuitive and 'natural and logical' to an alien while still being very entertaining.
The basic story has been that marines and their aiming skill scale far better to higher skill levels and offer more satisfying skill development in the long run. There's only that much you can do with cunning and sneakiness, especially when you're facing smart marines that understand how to limit your options for engaging.
I see skill based momevent as a way to give aliens more options, diversify their approach and new means to outplay their opponent rather than relying on them making a mistake.
I don't think it absolutely has to be an acceleration mechanic or a jump based mechanic, but coming up with decent alternatives is a huge challenge, especially now that we've got the vast majority of gameplay already set up and the mechanic has to fit into an existing context rather than everything being built up together to for a new system.
seeing as currently aliens are dominating the competitive side of the game atleast, this sounds like a solution to a problem that doesnt exist yet.
My problem with the bunnyhopping is that it doesn't fit NS2.
Marines don't really need bhop as their main skill sink is shooting.
Aliens don't really need bhop (Onos, lol), except Skulks (so they have something at all).
And Skulks, who should be encouraged to use the walls and ceiling (it fits the theme and makes the gameplay more interesting for Aliens *and* Marines), are "kept on the ground" by bhop because that's the easiest (or only) way to actually gain speed (which then can be used to rush a Marine position).
If anything, Skulks should be encouraged to NOT stay on the floor.
I'm not saying there's no room for skill based movement in NS, of course there is. It's just that I don't see the point in implementing some confusing time-consuming mechanic that's based on an ancient engine exploit. Create something new.
Some kind of extended wall jump/ceiling jump movement (for Skulks) would fit much better.
For example, I always thought Skulk jumps should be much more powerful (for increased energy cost of course), like a mini leap. They should also propel you into the direction you look (like leap) instead of the horizontal/"away from the wall" thing we have now.
Combine it with Skulks sticking to walls/ceilings more. Right now, you can barely jump from a wall to a ceiling without falling down (you don't stick, and you don't even reach the wall due to powerless/horizontal jumps), and in a fight it's pointless because it does nothing for you. Maybe even make Skulks jumps more powerful while on a wall/ceiling than on the floor (so staying off the floor is encouraged).
THIS, for example, would be a skill based mechanic (for Skulks) that can be used in all surroundings:
balancing jumps vs energy costs
balancing floor (where Marines ultimately are, so you have to go there) vs wall/ceiling that gives you a movement advantage
---
Bhop, on the other hand, just does not fit.
On the one hand, Skulks are supposed to ambush and attack from funny angles, and on the other hand theres the bhop which does absolutely nothing for this, but instead makes Skulks ground Zerg rush like. This sends conflicting messages to players.
Also, speaking for me:
I know bhop is there, there's even a specific sound when using it (nice!), but I still don't see the point in using it. Fine, sometimes you can use it to trade maneuverability vs speed (only on the ground), but... is that really what Skulks need?
No.
Bhop is *very* unintuitive for a game like NS2.
Like @Neoken said, the Fade is a great example of "easy to learn, hard to master" movement (and Fade movement is even much better than in vanilla, this mod is genius in that respect!) that makes intuitively sense in a game like NS2 (and gets extended by 2nd Hive upgrade - the new Shadowstep).
Skulks should have something like it. My idea is stronger jumps and strong wall/ceiling advantages (which also gets extended by upgrade, Leap).
People are making too big of a deal out of bunny hopping. It's not as if you're completely ineffective if you can't do it (like in NS1). Sewlek has gone to great lengths to make sure of that. First of all, there's still wall jumping. Second, you have almost the same air control simply holding forward as you do when strafing. This means you can come a long way without ever hearing about bunny hopping.
From that point it's easy enough to explain to new players that they can avoid losing speed from turning by holding strafe in the direction of the turn. And finally they'll learn that they can gain speed by moving in a serpentine pattern.
The progression is a lot smoother than some people make it out to be. What we need in this thread is less theorycrafting and more practical experimentation.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited May 2013
@sewlek ehhh... The skulk is not the only class whose movement modifier doesn't increase speed : the lerk.
So with this change, if I'm an ambushing skulk on the ceiling who wishes to drop straight down in silence, can this still be done?
I have found pressing forward while not looking exactly straight down either results in moving forward a bit first instead of instantly down, and typically comes with a sound of clanging feet, giving that marine just enough time to look up and play skulk tennis.
Not to mention, doesn't a quick movement boost overlap with leap slightly?? Leap already feels useless in the bt mod.. No need for it most of the time given it's initial values and what typical movement can achieve. The most I use it now is for an Evasive move in combat, but even then it's too slow, not far enough and highly predictable trajectory, given air control.
Seems to me like a lot of change that comes with problems - for little benefit, Imo.
Edit : WOW this formatting is utter crap.. Now it won't recognize breaks?? i have to manually enter them with "<br" ? ugh...
The progression is a lot smoother than some people make it out to be. What we need in this thread is less theorycrafting and more practical experimentation.
I tried it (Skulk movement) and bhop makes no sense to me.
The new Fade movement (with upgrades switched and the new shadowstep), in contrast, is brilliant. Even if I didn't actually know about changed details, it immediately felt better. Just one minute playing Fade in the mod immediately game me the feeling that it's movement is more accessible (compared to vanilla) and actually made me want top play Fade more often.
Skulk bhop does nothing like that.
---
€: I agree with Ironhorse, dropping down as a Skulk is often useful and needed.
i dont see why the skulk particularly needs to have a complex acceleration mechanic, nor why limitless skulk acceleration would be a desirable thing - the skulk gameplay was designed to be played a certain way - admittedly in a different way to how it played in NS1 mind. i feel the new way to be more intuitive and 'natural and logical' to an alien while still being very entertaining.
The basic story has been that marines and their aiming skill scale far better to higher skill levels and offer more satisfying skill development in the long run. There's only that much you can do with cunning and sneakiness, especially when you're facing smart marines that understand how to limit your options for engaging.
I see skill based momevent as a way to give aliens more options, diversify their approach and new means to outplay their opponent rather than relying on them making a mistake.
I don't think it absolutely has to be an acceleration mechanic or a jump based mechanic, but coming up with decent alternatives is a huge challenge, especially now that we've got the vast majority of gameplay already set up and the mechanic has to fit into an existing context rather than everything being built up together to for a new system.
seeing as currently aliens are dominating the competitive side of the game atleast, this sounds like a solution to a problem that doesnt exist yet.
It's bloody hard to have any solid idea about this when there are no demos and limited data in general, but as far as I can tell, the trend in NS2 has been that marines still get stronger as the skill level goes up.
As far as I've understood, part of the reason why aliens are so strong is that UWE wanted to have balanced games in their LAN event, which meant that marines got nerfed for balanced top level play, which then again meant aliens getting the upper hand below that level.
---
As for accessibility vs depth, I feel there are in many cases two separate things to tackle. The game is complex at first, but then again lacks depth here and there too. To some extend the things overlap, but I don't think they're all the way related. NS2 has a lot of unnecessary complex stuff and exceptions that can be sorted out for more accessible gameplay experience without obstructing any depth development.
I can understand need to focus on some stuff first, but I think in the long run both ends need to be dealt with.
I naturally hold down crouch as a skulk in combat when I'm trying maneuver certain ways (some times I don't want the sticky) and also to drop when ambushing as IronHorse said. I'm against that as a change personally. I've been too busy to play lately (and when I haven't been BT isn't populated) so I can't say how many of the changes are working or why people are asking for it. But as a long time NS player I suspect it will drive me crazy. And not in the good way...
Marines don't really need bhop as their main skill sink is shooting.
Marines can't bhop,
And you're all making it like not being able to bhop will stop you from being a good skulk, all it does is bring you from point A to point B quicker, it won't magically make you a marine killing machine. Even at that there's only so many areas where you can actually utilize it for combat/fleeing, and it only really helps in an inclosed area against 1-2 marines
also: I don't really care for the alien structures building slower, but the drifter helping build seems alright. It's a trade off, trade a drifter from scouting the map/detecting enemies to helping build a structure
My problem with the bunnyhopping is that it doesn't fit NS2.
Marines don't really need bhop as their main skill sink is shooting.
Aliens don't really need bhop (Onos, lol), except Skulks (so they have something at all).
And Skulks, who should be encouraged to use the walls and ceiling (it fits the theme and makes the gameplay more interesting for Aliens *and* Marines), are "kept on the ground" by bhop because that's the easiest (or only) way to actually gain speed (which then can be used to rush a Marine position).
If anything, Skulks should be encouraged to NOT stay on the floor.
I'm not saying there's no room for skill based movement in NS, of course there is. It's just that I don't see the point in implementing some confusing time-consuming mechanic that's based on an ancient engine exploit. Create something new.
Some kind of extended wall jump/ceiling jump movement (for Skulks) would fit much better.
For example, I always thought Skulk jumps should be much more powerful (for increased energy cost of course), like a mini leap. They should also propel you into the direction you look (like leap) instead of the horizontal/"away from the wall" thing we have now.
Combine it with Skulks sticking to walls/ceilings more. Right now, you can barely jump from a wall to a ceiling without falling down (you don't stick, and you don't even reach the wall due to powerless/horizontal jumps), and in a fight it's pointless because it does nothing for you. Maybe even make Skulks jumps more powerful while on a wall/ceiling than on the floor (so staying off the floor is encouraged).
THIS, for example, would be a skill based mechanic (for Skulks) that can be used in all surroundings:
balancing jumps vs energy costs
balancing floor (where Marines ultimately are, so you have to go there) vs wall/ceiling that gives you a movement advantage
totally agree with this, and besides, the notion of using a bunnyhop mechanic to enhance the popularity of a game is laughable these days. a possible implementation would be to hold for the duration of the jump button press to affect how far/fast your jump is. there was talk of having the shift button provide a speed boost consistently across the lifeforms (apart for lerk?), perhaps a energy using sprint would work with the skulk.
not really talking about bhop vs. no bhop... (been there, done that)
but if there is strafejumping and it's different from Quake Live strafejumping, I might stop playing NS2 because I'm not going to be be able to adjust when I go between games
JektJoin Date: 2012-02-05Member: 143714Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow
edited May 2013
Don't like the skulk sprint, cheapens the speed gaining mechanics imo. Instead of learning wall glancing routes on the map I can just hold shift whenever I screw up or need to get started again. I don't think the skill floor for speed gains needs to be any lower. I found myself just lazily holding it down in the occasional difficult area like stairs. instead of handling it skillfully. To add to that I want ctrl dropping back, to be honest I didn't realize how often I used it till it was gone. Quietly scaling down a wall, maneuvering behind an RT and diving onto a marine were all possible before without even moving the mouse. I miss it
I am unfairly basing this off the single game I alien commanded with the drifter building, but I found it tedious to manage - it's just moving a drifter to where you're cysting. The interesting part was that I was lucky enough to have 1 or 2 gorges during the game building RTs and hives who were complaining that they wouldn't of bothered if an AI unit was going to do the job. In a lot of games you won't have players going gorge for you, it is nearly always more ideal to go gorge yourself and get respawned teammates into the hive for a few seconds to begin a research of drop something for you, unfortunately the standard public player will freak out the moment the alien commander isn't present and your position will be poached. So I think I do understand the drifter building idea. However the lower pres gorge cost and increased build times are enough incentives to encourage temporary gorges and break up pres counts among the team.
Haven't seen much discussion about moving alien structures. Haven't even seen it used in a while either outside of the occasional creeper shade troll. If people think that it's adding variety and strategy to the game, some whip style tentacles when it's moving would help the feature along. Watching a crag meander through the middle of the map on no infestation is a sad sight. Since support structures can be built regardless of hive type I think the echo ability on the shift should be how structures move around infestation.
I like the sprint, it's a good beginner alternative to bunnyhopping like I mentioned before, though I do think it synergizes too well with bunnyhopping right now. It's silly that you basically just have to tap it once and start jumping and you're effectively sprinting for free.
Here's a thought - what if the bunnyhopping mechanics were changed to be an extension of the sprint? When you bounce, you gain some speed if you're holding the Shift button, and you lose some speed if you're not holding it. Thus, in order to gain speed for the least amount of energy, you have to time pressing the Shift button to use it for the minimum amount of time each bounce. Maybe change the jumping so you simply hold down the space bar and instead are pressing the Shift key rhythmically(as opposed to both which is maybe too much keyboard acrobatics). This is something that you can actually figure out intuitively:
1. "Oh cool, holding down Shift makes me sprint!"
2. "Hmm, look at those skulks bouncing up and down and going fast... Well, sprinting is how I go fast, and hey look, if I hold jump I gain more speed!"
3. "This sure does use a lot of energy... I wonder if I really have to hold down sprint the whole time?"
Also, I suggest changing the Lerk slowdown/perch button to Ctrl for consistency with the Skulk.
I dont mind the sprint overall, its impacts are minor from what I see. My main problem is really just the loss of control to drop off walls.
Also, as a note for anyone who keeps bringing up the bhop in this as a reason against this mod, bhop is still NOT the primary speed gain mechanic, its walljump JUST like in the live build. The bhop in this can be used almost identically to how you would jump in live after walljumps to minimize speed loss (people dont really call that a bhop, but its really the same effect in LIVE currently, your just unfairly judging against this mod because you have some kind of dislike for it overall) - in the end, the bhop really only is there to provide a mechanic for skulks to excel upon even further, to better match up to marine aim levels. If you watched/played high level NS2 play then you would have already noticed the massive skill gap between skulks and marines early game, to the point where you need to pull your entire team and the gorge to crush a 3 man push.
skulk sprint:
It does nothing once you go over speed of 9 but it will still drain energy - that is annoying. So basically if you dont have debugspeed on and you are not sure if you are already over that magic number -> you just drain your energy for no reason. The onos doesnt have bhop or walljump to keep or increase its speed, so it makes sense that it keeps draining - since its causing you to be as fast as you are - if you release you slow down to normal speed.
Skulking is very different tho - so either it should stop draining energy once you go over the max speedboost it provides(so keeping the button pressed does nothing after that), or it would need to always contribute until maximum speed. (gradually getting less effective, and slowing down energy drain the faster you are)
edit: so it seems like the forum doesnt want to show breaks anymore... so hf reading my post!
So is there like information somewhere on this mod? I really don't want to search through 50 pages in this thread for detailed explanations of the mechanics
Yeah i'm still disappointed that there still aren't tooltip descriptions for some abilities/commander things. must be more difficult than I thought, I guess.
I wish there was a bit more control though for when skulks are going fast. Sometimes its hard to turn a corner when you are going at top speeds. Will you be keeping it this way or are you able to adjust it a bit more ?
i find the new sprint ability a bit fun, though its hard to gauge the speed increase in general. the jumping at low speeds feels extremely floaty, and its hard to give direction to your jumps. in general though the skulk is much more ground focussed, as the main way to engage and close the distance now is to build up as much speed as possible before entering the room and rocketing at your opponent. once you get there, your pretty dead because of the low control at low speeds. though the high speeds and bunnying about is fun in its own way, i find the skulk gameplay alot less interesting in general. hozz makes a good point in that it seems strange to say to noobs, ground is lava, yet have the 'elite' movement and engagement priming mechanisms so ground based.
on a side note; i guess it may just be a placeholder, but the sprint sound is a bit silly sounding, perhaps the running sound should become louder and footsteps faster progressively with speed?
for the alien upgrades, if you want to go for the ns1 style more chambers make the upgrade more potent - why not condense the upgrades into 1 - theres one 'strong' upgrade per tech tree anyway, the weak one's dont get all that much use. obviously the trait potency may have to be adjusted.
for marines i find the dual changes to the armory no longer repairing armor and the change to how the welder upgrade no longer exists and is 'free' is a clumsy and forced way to increase interdependence and teamplay. perhaps by making the armory's more expensive and the welder a more expensive permanent loadout upgrade? these changes in particular are likely to make playing casually a real chore so please reconsider. the intention is good, the mechanism not though im not sure the vanilla ns2 system is that bad - good teams use welders all the time so i dont see what the issue is really.
Btw: is it still an issue that Gorge Tunnels do not properly reconnect if you drop a third one while already having two on the field? And was that issue only related to the Balance mod or to NS2 in general?
Comments
But you don't cling to walls when crouching.
Sometimes you need to be sneaky on the wall. Sometimes you need to move without sticking to surfaces (example which come to my mind is atrium -> crevice vent, I usually hold ctrl to fall down).
Jump from a wall = boost, you automatically get a boost, that is the initial gain, the bhop aspect is for the higher speeds, ground + ground = slowest wall+ wall = fastest / wall + floor = mix
So essentially all you need to do is exactly what you do in vanilla ns2, jump from walls and you'll gain a boost.. want to go faster? Then it's A/D with strafing, and there's no penalty for jumping ATM. You can literally jump whenever you feel you've touched the ground, no need for any type of mousewheel bind. When I first started the BT and saw this mechanic, I was lost.. couldn't get the sound to happen but just practiced it and got the hang of it to the point where I can do it every time; in fact I love the nonstop key pressing it really keeps you focused on what you're doing movement wise and learning it more and more to the point where I can actually depending on my location use it in combat to win fights
On the flip, make this mechanic too easy to gain those same higher speeds then it will be done everywhere, which is not ok.. here's an example.. what if everyone was given an aim assist.. you still need to aim, but once you go to a target it will automatically follow them (sort of like a console) then people who have a lot of experience with muscle memory/aim won't have this advantage... get what I'm saying? That's not right.. like anything playing for years and having the proper hardware you'll gain muscle memory and obviously have an advantage over another player who doesn't.. same for everything; regardless of what is added there will always be someone better at it..
??? I've never used crouch as a skulk and I wasn't aware that you could? Are you talking about fade? Fade crouching is for not hitting your head on stuff :P
however I do hate that the onos cannot crouch jump anymore
The basic story has been that marines and their aiming skill scale far better to higher skill levels and offer more satisfying skill development in the long run. There's only that much you can do with cunning and sneakiness, especially when you're facing smart marines that understand how to limit your options for engaging.
I see skill based momevent as a way to give aliens more options, diversify their approach and new means to outplay their opponent rather than relying on them making a mistake.
I don't think it absolutely has to be an acceleration mechanic or a jump based mechanic, but coming up with decent alternatives is a huge challenge, especially now that we've got the vast majority of gameplay already set up and the mechanic has to fit into an existing context rather than everything being built up together to for a new system.
workshop page where you get the mod
I'm talking about skulks where crouch disables wall walking. It's equally important for fades for the reason you mentioned though :P
seeing as currently aliens are dominating the competitive side of the game atleast, this sounds like a solution to a problem that doesnt exist yet.
Marines don't really need bhop as their main skill sink is shooting.
Aliens don't really need bhop (Onos, lol), except Skulks (so they have something at all).
And Skulks, who should be encouraged to use the walls and ceiling (it fits the theme and makes the gameplay more interesting for Aliens *and* Marines), are "kept on the ground" by bhop because that's the easiest (or only) way to actually gain speed (which then can be used to rush a Marine position).
If anything, Skulks should be encouraged to NOT stay on the floor.
I agree 100% with this here:
Some kind of extended wall jump/ceiling jump movement (for Skulks) would fit much better.
For example, I always thought Skulk jumps should be much more powerful (for increased energy cost of course), like a mini leap. They should also propel you into the direction you look (like leap) instead of the horizontal/"away from the wall" thing we have now.
Combine it with Skulks sticking to walls/ceilings more. Right now, you can barely jump from a wall to a ceiling without falling down (you don't stick, and you don't even reach the wall due to powerless/horizontal jumps), and in a fight it's pointless because it does nothing for you.
Maybe even make Skulks jumps more powerful while on a wall/ceiling than on the floor (so staying off the floor is encouraged).
THIS, for example, would be a skill based mechanic (for Skulks) that can be used in all surroundings:
balancing jumps vs energy costs
balancing floor (where Marines ultimately are, so you have to go there) vs wall/ceiling that gives you a movement advantage
---
Bhop, on the other hand, just does not fit.
On the one hand, Skulks are supposed to ambush and attack from funny angles, and on the other hand theres the bhop which does absolutely nothing for this, but instead makes Skulks ground Zerg rush like. This sends conflicting messages to players.
Also, speaking for me:
I know bhop is there, there's even a specific sound when using it (nice!), but I still don't see the point in using it. Fine, sometimes you can use it to trade maneuverability vs speed (only on the ground), but... is that really what Skulks need?
No.
Bhop is *very* unintuitive for a game like NS2.
Like @Neoken said, the Fade is a great example of "easy to learn, hard to master" movement (and Fade movement is even much better than in vanilla, this mod is genius in that respect!) that makes intuitively sense in a game like NS2 (and gets extended by 2nd Hive upgrade - the new Shadowstep).
Skulks should have something like it. My idea is stronger jumps and strong wall/ceiling advantages (which also gets extended by upgrade, Leap).
Skulk + bhop makes no sense.
From that point it's easy enough to explain to new players that they can avoid losing speed from turning by holding strafe in the direction of the turn. And finally they'll learn that they can gain speed by moving in a serpentine pattern.
The progression is a lot smoother than some people make it out to be. What we need in this thread is less theorycrafting and more practical experimentation.
So with this change, if I'm an ambushing skulk on the ceiling who wishes to drop straight down in silence, can this still be done? I have found pressing forward while not looking exactly straight down either results in moving forward a bit first instead of instantly down, and typically comes with a sound of clanging feet, giving that marine just enough time to look up and play skulk tennis.
Not to mention, doesn't a quick movement boost overlap with leap slightly?? Leap already feels useless in the bt mod.. No need for it most of the time given it's initial values and what typical movement can achieve. The most I use it now is for an Evasive move in combat, but even then it's too slow, not far enough and highly predictable trajectory, given air control.
Seems to me like a lot of change that comes with problems - for little benefit, Imo.
Edit : WOW this formatting is utter crap.. Now it won't recognize breaks?? i have to manually enter them with "<br" ? ugh...
The new Fade movement (with upgrades switched and the new shadowstep), in contrast, is brilliant. Even if I didn't actually know about changed details, it immediately felt better. Just one minute playing Fade in the mod immediately game me the feeling that it's movement is more accessible (compared to vanilla) and actually made me want top play Fade more often.
Skulk bhop does nothing like that.
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€: I agree with Ironhorse, dropping down as a Skulk is often useful and needed.
It's bloody hard to have any solid idea about this when there are no demos and limited data in general, but as far as I can tell, the trend in NS2 has been that marines still get stronger as the skill level goes up.
As far as I've understood, part of the reason why aliens are so strong is that UWE wanted to have balanced games in their LAN event, which meant that marines got nerfed for balanced top level play, which then again meant aliens getting the upper hand below that level.
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As for accessibility vs depth, I feel there are in many cases two separate things to tackle. The game is complex at first, but then again lacks depth here and there too. To some extend the things overlap, but I don't think they're all the way related. NS2 has a lot of unnecessary complex stuff and exceptions that can be sorted out for more accessible gameplay experience without obstructing any depth development.
I can understand need to focus on some stuff first, but I think in the long run both ends need to be dealt with.
Marines can't bhop,
And you're all making it like not being able to bhop will stop you from being a good skulk, all it does is bring you from point A to point B quicker, it won't magically make you a marine killing machine. Even at that there's only so many areas where you can actually utilize it for combat/fleeing, and it only really helps in an inclosed area against 1-2 marines
also: I don't really care for the alien structures building slower, but the drifter helping build seems alright. It's a trade off, trade a drifter from scouting the map/detecting enemies to helping build a structure
totally agree with this, and besides, the notion of using a bunnyhop mechanic to enhance the popularity of a game is laughable these days. a possible implementation would be to hold for the duration of the jump button press to affect how far/fast your jump is. there was talk of having the shift button provide a speed boost consistently across the lifeforms (apart for lerk?), perhaps a energy using sprint would work with the skulk.
but if there is strafejumping and it's different from Quake Live strafejumping, I might stop playing NS2 because I'm not going to be be able to adjust when I go between games
I am unfairly basing this off the single game I alien commanded with the drifter building, but I found it tedious to manage - it's just moving a drifter to where you're cysting. The interesting part was that I was lucky enough to have 1 or 2 gorges during the game building RTs and hives who were complaining that they wouldn't of bothered if an AI unit was going to do the job. In a lot of games you won't have players going gorge for you, it is nearly always more ideal to go gorge yourself and get respawned teammates into the hive for a few seconds to begin a research of drop something for you, unfortunately the standard public player will freak out the moment the alien commander isn't present and your position will be poached. So I think I do understand the drifter building idea. However the lower pres gorge cost and increased build times are enough incentives to encourage temporary gorges and break up pres counts among the team.
Haven't seen much discussion about moving alien structures. Haven't even seen it used in a while either outside of the occasional creeper shade troll. If people think that it's adding variety and strategy to the game, some whip style tentacles when it's moving would help the feature along. Watching a crag meander through the middle of the map on no infestation is a sad sight. Since support structures can be built regardless of hive type I think the echo ability on the shift should be how structures move around infestation.
Here's a thought - what if the bunnyhopping mechanics were changed to be an extension of the sprint? When you bounce, you gain some speed if you're holding the Shift button, and you lose some speed if you're not holding it. Thus, in order to gain speed for the least amount of energy, you have to time pressing the Shift button to use it for the minimum amount of time each bounce. Maybe change the jumping so you simply hold down the space bar and instead are pressing the Shift key rhythmically(as opposed to both which is maybe too much keyboard acrobatics). This is something that you can actually figure out intuitively:
1. "Oh cool, holding down Shift makes me sprint!"
2. "Hmm, look at those skulks bouncing up and down and going fast... Well, sprinting is how I go fast, and hey look, if I hold jump I gain more speed!"
3. "This sure does use a lot of energy... I wonder if I really have to hold down sprint the whole time?"
Also, I suggest changing the Lerk slowdown/perch button to Ctrl for consistency with the Skulk.
Also, as a note for anyone who keeps bringing up the bhop in this as a reason against this mod, bhop is still NOT the primary speed gain mechanic, its walljump JUST like in the live build. The bhop in this can be used almost identically to how you would jump in live after walljumps to minimize speed loss (people dont really call that a bhop, but its really the same effect in LIVE currently, your just unfairly judging against this mod because you have some kind of dislike for it overall) - in the end, the bhop really only is there to provide a mechanic for skulks to excel upon even further, to better match up to marine aim levels. If you watched/played high level NS2 play then you would have already noticed the massive skill gap between skulks and marines early game, to the point where you need to pull your entire team and the gorge to crush a 3 man push.
Yeah i'm still disappointed that there still aren't tooltip descriptions for some abilities/commander things. must be more difficult than I thought, I guess.
on a side note; i guess it may just be a placeholder, but the sprint sound is a bit silly sounding, perhaps the running sound should become louder and footsteps faster progressively with speed?
for the alien upgrades, if you want to go for the ns1 style more chambers make the upgrade more potent - why not condense the upgrades into 1 - theres one 'strong' upgrade per tech tree anyway, the weak one's dont get all that much use. obviously the trait potency may have to be adjusted.
for marines i find the dual changes to the armory no longer repairing armor and the change to how the welder upgrade no longer exists and is 'free' is a clumsy and forced way to increase interdependence and teamplay. perhaps by making the armory's more expensive and the welder a more expensive permanent loadout upgrade? these changes in particular are likely to make playing casually a real chore so please reconsider. the intention is good, the mechanism not though im not sure the vanilla ns2 system is that bad - good teams use welders all the time so i dont see what the issue is really.
Yeah, this is pretty important to have feedback on how well you're executing any movement system.