just tried it again after todays update some info for everyone
Possible bug: celerity gives no benefit to onos? he was moving standard speed with celerity equipped
Change noted: Fade blinks slower (also if he touches an incline/upward in a weird way he loses all speed and instantly stops, not just staircases) I'm unsure but his SS may take more adrenaline now? no specifics, he's slower overall as well; on summit (not veil or a more straight map) only reaching 22~+ speed
Skulk: I think he's jumping slightly lower? maybe grav changed again? (this could also be what's confusing me from last week besides the other changes)
wiry, you seem to have a Quake background so i will use a comparable example - do you think it would have been wise of id software to change baseq3 into CPM 6 months after release? it doesnt matter that CPM is a better game - imo anyway - but forcing a drastic change like that will never be well received - harming both the public and competitive scene. if balance mod is so awesome and really adds something compelling, it will gain popularity separately. the best possible outcome from this is a community split in two, with an overall lower population. surely thats not a good thing?
your analogy is better accomplished with VQ3 vs. CPM, but it's not applicable here anyway because it's being included in the entire game, not a separate mod
that is indeed what i meant, but you misunderstand why i make the comparison. imagine for a moment that ID had forcibly replaced vq3 with cpm. i think it would have been a pretty big deal with alot of negative repercussions for the scene. thats what it seems you intend to do with vanilla ns2 and balance test and i cant understand why you guys dont see the obvious pitfalls and problems with a. the nature of the changes being made and b. the manner in which they are to be implemented.
cpma would be poorly received because it isn't an improvement, but a sidestep
it did kind of kill the community by fragmenting it (all the modding did this, not just cpma). the problem was that id managed it horribly, not that cpma was "bad"
what id failed at was building a community around a single game. things are really nice when player counts are high. and then when people start to leave you feel the pain of having 10 small communities for individual mods instead of 1 large one for the actual game
the thing is that vanilla NS2 isn't really considered anywhere near as "perfect" as q3. you can actually improve something in NS2 without making a core part of the game worse
In doing this though adrenaline will obviously be the only upgrade path from the shift hive, not really sure if that can ever be changed. I can't see a single reason to ever use celerity on a fade -- need other players inputs on this, maybe they don't think this fade is OP.. but I do and I'm a mediocre fade
I agree, the fade is op, and I havn't even played marine vs. fade yet. The blink movement is simply too fast and too cheap. But on the subject of celerity vs adrenaline, I actually found celerity to be much better. I got much faster around the map with it, and I never actually felt the need for the extra energy pool.
The Fade automatically ducking makes it really hard to deal with considering landing with it makes it stand up. Unless the desire is to make Fade on ground never viable ever, I do not understand the ducking action.
DC_DarklingJoin Date: 2003-07-10Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver
Ok lets get a lot of folk in disagree with me...
I do not like the mods bhop like skulk movement. (I did not like bunnhop in ns1 that much either).
Thanks to ppl like ezekel I can actually do it for a while, if I dont get shot.. but I dont like it.
bunnyhop & this movement is a lot of repetitive finger motion on multiple keys and im part of the group of humans who just have hard trouble doing that. It takes most my mental focus form playing to just moving.
In ns1 I only bhopped on gorge as it was slow enought to have a less fast repetitive movement. And im sure I would never keep up with the pro bhop back then either. (I was faster then non bunnhyhop, but still).
Having the walljumping ok.. having the need to move the mose left/right in perhaps big swipes ok..
But no, the including of the strafing just grabs more then I can give it.
Well im ready for the flaming so lets have it. I wonder however how many more folk have the some motor skill problem.
This is my first time looking at this mod. I have to say that just about everything in it seems unnecessary. I don't feel like NS2 has seriously balance problems and this seems to just either push things back to NS1 style or just complicate them.
I agree and disagree....
Disagree about their being balance problems, but agree with the NS1 "features" being put in that don't necessarily need to be in or just make the game even more complicated for the new player.
bunnyhop & this movement is a lot of repetitive finger motion on multiple keys and im part of the group of humans who just have hard trouble doing that. ...
You say that now, but after you do it for 2 months it becomes second nature and you do it without hardly thinking about it. (2 months was about the time it took me to completely master bunnyhopping in Team Fortress Classic without any previous experience beforehand.)
Either way though, I don't think it bunnyhopping should be in NS2 either.
DC_DarklingJoin Date: 2003-07-10Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver
@Res
No I wont. Remember I also played NS1 and did bunnyhop. I could eventually do it, but it never ever becomes 2nd nature. Its always a struggle to keep motor skills doing what you want to do while bunnyhopping.
bunnyhop & this movement is a lot of repetitive finger motion on multiple keys and im part of the group of humans who just have hard trouble doing that. ...
You say that now, but after you do it for 2 months it becomes second nature and you do it without hardly thinking about it. (2 months was about the time it took me to completely master bunnyhopping in Team Fortress Classic without any previous experience beforehand.)
Either way though, I don't think it bunnyhopping should be in NS2 either.
I think he's saying he has a form of autism or disability that prevents him from understanding/doing the actions required. While very unfortunate I'm not sure if an entire thing should be taken out because of it. But it's just my word against yours, I think the mechanic is nice because the default skulk is simply too much of a brick head, now I feel I'm able to close gaps, maneuver in combat, and even escape some scenarios
I think bunnyhopping just feels better and is more fun than live style walljump-chaining, but there are some legitimate concerns about its accessibility. I feel that the skill floor is too high - there should be a simple but limited way to gain speed easily, and then it should be more difficult to use the system to the fullest.
IMO you should be able to gain speed by jumping straight like the first iteration, but only with a slow acceleration. This way new players need only be told how to jump repeatedly(put it in a tutorial vid) and they'll start to see speed gains. Then later they can start to figure out more advanced tricks, like using walljumping to gain speed faster and/or reach a higher speed cap.
The skill floor is still too high for the jumping? ... You A-D.. clip off walls, and continue.. done. One concern I've heard is that the structures such as the shell and all that is too big, since you have to place 3 around, just doesn't seem to be enough room.
I think bunnyhopping just feels better and is more fun than live style walljump-chaining, but there are some legitimate concerns about its accessibility. I feel that the skill floor is too high - there should be a simple but limited way to gain speed easily, and then it should be more difficult to use the system to the fullest
That's how it is, once you get it down you can gain speed easily; once you really get it down you can go very fast and maneuver with it in combat. The only issue I see with it now is it's quite quiet when coming at someone full force, so a global sound needs to be there for it.. Nothing insanely loud but loud enough to know that someone is piloting the g6 into your tech point
There is no perfect time for the jumping, that is the easy access to it.. if it required perfect jumping well then it'd be limited to a select few players, literally. I'm in love with the mechanic and will defend it whole way, unless another mechanic to improve skulk is introduced. The vanilla one is just so.. not right, and I feel that if you make the bhop even EASIER than it is.. then everyone will be doing it at max speeds and I think that's a no-no, the fade however has had both the skill floor and skill ceiling raised; it's interesting and I like it but I don't mind either versions of the fade. So we'll see where that one goes!
Is it intended that you can damage your team's structures?
Is there friendly fire (only tested in SP, so I don't know about other lifeforms)?
I can't even imagine the horribleness of griefing that would bring.
I think bunnyhopping just feels better and is more fun than live style walljump-chaining, but there are some legitimate concerns about its accessibility. I feel that the skill floor is too high - there should be a simple but limited way to gain speed easily, and then it should be more difficult to use the system to the fullest
That's how it is, once you get it down you can gain speed easily; once you really get it down you can go very fast and maneuver with it in combat. The only issue I see with it now is it's quite quiet when coming at someone full force, so a global sound needs to be there for it.. Nothing insanely loud but loud enough to know that someone is piloting the g6 into your tech point
There is no perfect time for the jumping, that is the easy access to it.. if it required perfect jumping well then it'd be limited to a select few players, literally. I'm in love with the mechanic and will defend it whole way, unless another mechanic to improve skulk is introduced. The vanilla one is just so.. not right, and I feel that if you make the bhop even EASIER than it is.. then everyone will be doing it at max speeds and I think that's a no-no, the fade however has had both the skill floor and skill ceiling raised; it's interesting and I like it but I don't mind either versions of the fade. So we'll see where that one goes!
I'm saying you shouldn't have to "get it down" just to get the most basic of speed increases. You should be able to start toying with the mechanic without consulting the forums. The higher level skill requirements should be the same as today, but there should be a beginner's version(low acceleration/max speed) that is attainable with jumping alone.
@Res
No I wont. Remember I also played NS1 and did bunnyhop. I could eventually do it, but it never ever becomes 2nd nature. Its always a struggle to keep motor skills doing what you want to do while bunnyhopping.
For me it worked quite like aiming, which is part of the reason why I think it's such a wonderful system. I can go play right now, feel natural about it and have some success, but with some practise I get a lot more precise and manage to squeeze bits of extra efficiency here and there. There are also some people who never cease to amaze me and do stuff on a level that seems completely out of my reach.
I don't think even the bhop system manages to match aiming all the way in skill scaling though, but it's the only system I've seen manage to create even somewhat paraller learning curve experience.
Any idea what keeps it from becoming a second nature? I consider myself one of the least rhytmically capable people I know and yet the system has reached a point where I don't have to think about the execution more than I think about aiming.
What about making the movement systems as unlocks/research abilities? I agree with Zek that a rookie mode version of the movement would be a useful addition, but one of my main gripes about any bunnyhop system is that to the uninitiated, it just looks like cheating 'wtf, did you see that skulk?' One way to mitigate this is to formalise it for everyone. If their com is saying 'researching advanced movement now,' then no one who hasn't been to the forums is missing out.
The added advantage is that it allows skulks to scale better without being ridiculously op early game.
I still object to the dog alien moving faster than the flying and teleporting aliens on principle, though!
I had a quick go with the skulk and found the movement quite easy to get the hang of, and quite natural. With that said, I'm still generally against bhop or similar mechanics unless their implementation is really obviously intentional and supported, hence my suggestion above for it to be a tech research of some type.
added supply limit for specific units, 100 supply per captured tech point
Does this mean "You can't go Onos because your team already has so many Onoses"?
no, this means you can't have the new world order of whips march into data core slaying your village and crops right before your weeping eyes
I could build tons of whips without the supply rising above 200 (3 hives), also, why does the supply have a drifter logo?
Supply applies to a lot of things. For aliens it's also 10 supply per Crag, Shift or Shade and 5 supply per Drifter, I think. So if you invest all into Whips, you will have less defense structures in your bases and forward bases in general.
On the marine side it applies to Armories, Phase Gates, Robotics Factories, MACs, ARCs and Sentries. Sentry spam in each of your bases will leave you with less supply for attacking Hives or supporting your marines on the field.
What about making the movement systems as unlocks/research abilities? I agree with Zek that a rookie mode version of the movement would be a useful addition, but one of my main gripes about any bunnyhop system is that to the uninitiated, it just looks like cheating 'wtf, did you see that skulk?' One way to mitigate this is to formalise it for everyone. If their com is saying 'researching advanced movement now,' then no one who hasn't been to the forums is missing out.
The added advantage is that it allows skulks to scale better without being ridiculously op early game.
I still object to the dog alien moving faster than the flying and teleporting aliens on principle, though!
I had a quick go with the skulk and found the movement quite easy to get the hang of, and quite natural. With that said, I'm still generally against bhop or similar mechanics unless their implementation is really obviously intentional and supported, hence my suggestion above for it to be a tech research of some type.
The researchability breaks the idea that the movement matches marine aiming and helps the aliens scale in skill. I can see researchables expanding the way the movement is used (see NS1 leap for example), but I think the basic movement skills should very much be there all the way from the start on each and every lifeform.
One of the things suggested somewhere early in NS2 development was to give skulks a Warsow styled dash key. It would give skulk a brief base speed burst that could then be preserved by plain hopping without any additional speed gain methods. At that point every player has at least benefit in doing some dash hopping and hopefully have easier time transitioning into more deep skill based mechanisms from there.
how will the new movement mechanics be explained to people who are not familiar with the strafeaccel exploit? the lack of tutorials were a big issue at release - will there be tutorials (proper ones that is, not youtube vids) for the advanced movement tactics that will confer huge benefits to those that master them?
the idea of adding two distinct movement systems is a terrible idea. funnily enough bacillus, warsow did do that, split their movement up - oldmovement which was strafeaccel based, and newmovemet, which provided acceleration by pressing forward - it didnt really have any effect, it gave veterans a bad impression of the movement (newmovement, being 'easier' became the default) and didnt help bring new people to the game.
The skill floor is still too high for the jumping? ... You A-D.. clip off walls, and continue.. done. One concern I've heard is that the structures such as the shell and all that is too big, since you have to place 3 around, just doesn't seem to be enough room.
i found the bunnyhopping to be very inconsistent in balance test. the timing windows should be bigger imo.
also, im generally opposed to going back to NS1 movement mechanics on multiple grounds: 1. stafeaccel is a bug and this is 2013. a movement system should be intuitive, natural to use and be a product of an intentional design process. 2. i think the emphasis on highspeed (particularly for the skulk) undermines the approach taken for the skulk for NS2 - that he should be more sneaky and ambushy. i dont see why you would want bunnyhop on a fade anyway, other than as a concession to NS1 players again. the shadowstep system is similar in many respects aswell.
I do not like the mods bhop like skulk movement. (I did not like bunnhop in ns1 that much either).
Thanks to ppl like ezekel I can actually do it for a while, if I dont get shot.. but I dont like it.
bunnyhop & this movement is a lot of repetitive finger motion on multiple keys and im part of the group of humans who just have hard trouble doing that. It takes most my mental focus form playing to just moving.
In ns1 I only bhopped on gorge as it was slow enought to have a less fast repetitive movement. And im sure I would never keep up with the pro bhop back then either. (I was faster then non bunnhyhop, but still).
Having the walljumping ok.. having the need to move the mose left/right in perhaps big swipes ok..
But no, the including of the strafing just grabs more then I can give it.
Well im ready for the flaming so lets have it. I wonder however how many more folk have the some motor skill problem.
I have to agree. For me, it's not really a motor skill problem (you can learn anything with enough practice). It's that I never saw the point of it. I tried to learn bunnyhopping once during my counterstrike days, but got bored of doing so. It didn't fit in with the gameplay to start with, and the mechanic itself was something weird and illogical. So it was too much of a time investment for something I didn't really care about.
NS is different obviously, but if you're making a game in which you want people to be able to jump around at high speeds, why would you make the mechanic itself so difficult and counterintuitive to perform? For example, I used to play Tribes a lot. It's fair to say that game has a high skill floor/ceiling, and it's core gameplay focuses heavily on movement skills. Yet, it's very simple at it's base (ski downhill to gain momentum), so it's easy to pick up and incredibly fun as well. I didn't get that feeling when I tried bunnyhopping in CS, and I'm not convinced it's right for NS as well.
I'm not saying there's no room for skill based movement in NS, of course there is. It's just that I don't see the point in implementing some confusing time-consuming mechanic that's based on an ancient engine exploit. Create something new. Like the ss+double jump combo for fades, it's a good example imo. Combine forward momentum with upward lift, get a longer travel distance. It's intuitive, fits the fade gameplay profile, is easy to learn and hard to master.
SewlekThe programmer previously known as SchimmelJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16247Members, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, Subnautica Developer
i was playing around with that now but it overlaps so much with wall jumping and, the initial wall jump is not difficult to do (simply run along a wall -> jump -> faster). but i have to say its a little bit weird that for all other classes the movement modifier key increases your speed, but for skulk it slows you down. so a flat speed increase (like +1) when holding down the button which consumes energy over time would make more sense, and use crouch instead (for all classes) for sneaking.
the idea of adding two distinct movement systems is a terrible idea. funnily enough bacillus, warsow did do that, split their movement up - oldmovement which was strafeaccel based, and newmovemet, which provided acceleration by pressing forward - it didnt really have any effect, it gave veterans a bad impression of the movement (newmovement, being 'easier' became the default) and didnt help bring new people to the game.
I have to say I don't know how the Warsow movement system in deeper details, but I don't feel at least the dash is a disctinct movement system. The way I see it, the game needs one consistent movement system that is then manipulated through various means - such as air curving or preserving dash speed.
Dash isn't a replacement or an alternative way of doing things, it's a stepping stone between the inaccessible deep hop movement system and starting point of no movement skill whatsoever. A skilled player might mix up some dashing to his movement, but it alone doesn't let him accelerate past the initial speed that the first dash gives him. I'd vision it as something similar as the initial bhop starting jumps in NS1, just way more accessible than that.
DC_DarklingJoin Date: 2003-07-10Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver
edited May 2013
No.. so far I know its not autism. (never tested hehe).
ok lets try this again. What happens when you must type "a" and "s" with 2 fingers for over a minute? Like a > s > a > s > a > s etc.
Many people will probably be able to do that. I have to focus or else it will switch to something else like a > s > a > a > s. etc.
So its not a lack of understanding on the mechanic to bunnyhop or jump. Its the individual nonstop concious rather then subconscious control of all fingers involved, in a continues patern.
With practise I can eventually stretch the boundaries, and I probably will. But its a exhausting way to play and takes focus from playing to simple movement. (my blind typing was also very fast but also very high in errors. Sort of related hehe)
Another point i dislike of the new mechanic is the actual mechanic itself. Right now we do our best to teach newbies to get of the floor. It is rather well doable to walljump up to speed, switch directions a lot and just hop into combat.
This sort of bunnyhop is much harder to mix with a very intensive, often changing directional jumping habbit basicly forcing skulks back on the floor. Its harder to transition from movement to combat.
While it may be intended, as it is not similar to movement without the hop it may also confuse new players on the switching.
I find it very hard, at the moment, to implement this hop in combat.
ye bacillus, i understand and can agree with that. i just saw people suggesting two distinct movement systems, one for more experienced players, the other for new ones. when you mentioned warsow, it was too good to be true as they did the same thing there for the same reasons, but it didnt work.
i dont see why the skulk particularly needs to have a complex acceleration mechanic, nor why limitless skulk acceleration would be a desirable thing - the skulk gameplay was designed to be played a certain way - admittedly in a different way to how it played in NS1 mind. i feel the new way to be more intuitive and 'natural and logical' to an alien while still being very entertaining.
Comments
Possible bug: celerity gives no benefit to onos? he was moving standard speed with celerity equipped
Change noted: Fade blinks slower (also if he touches an incline/upward in a weird way he loses all speed and instantly stops, not just staircases) I'm unsure but his SS may take more adrenaline now? no specifics, he's slower overall as well; on summit (not veil or a more straight map) only reaching 22~+ speed
Skulk: I think he's jumping slightly lower? maybe grav changed again? (this could also be what's confusing me from last week besides the other changes)
ezekel said:
I agree, the fade is op, and I havn't even played marine vs. fade yet. The blink movement is simply too fast and too cheap. But on the subject of celerity vs adrenaline, I actually found celerity to be much better. I got much faster around the map with it, and I never actually felt the need for the extra energy pool.I do not like the mods bhop like skulk movement. (I did not like bunnhop in ns1 that much either).
Thanks to ppl like ezekel I can actually do it for a while, if I dont get shot.. but I dont like it.
bunnyhop & this movement is a lot of repetitive finger motion on multiple keys and im part of the group of humans who just have hard trouble doing that. It takes most my mental focus form playing to just moving.
In ns1 I only bhopped on gorge as it was slow enought to have a less fast repetitive movement. And im sure I would never keep up with the pro bhop back then either. (I was faster then non bunnhyhop, but still).
Having the walljumping ok.. having the need to move the mose left/right in perhaps big swipes ok..
But no, the including of the strafing just grabs more then I can give it.
Well im ready for the flaming so lets have it. I wonder however how many more folk have the some motor skill problem.
You say that now, but after you do it for 2 months it becomes second nature and you do it without hardly thinking about it. (2 months was about the time it took me to completely master bunnyhopping in Team Fortress Classic without any previous experience beforehand.)
Either way though, I don't think it bunnyhopping should be in NS2 either.
No I wont. Remember I also played NS1 and did bunnyhop. I could eventually do it, but it never ever becomes 2nd nature. Its always a struggle to keep motor skills doing what you want to do while bunnyhopping.
I think he's saying he has a form of autism or disability that prevents him from understanding/doing the actions required. While very unfortunate I'm not sure if an entire thing should be taken out because of it. But it's just my word against yours, I think the mechanic is nice because the default skulk is simply too much of a brick head, now I feel I'm able to close gaps, maneuver in combat, and even escape some scenarios
So constructive, a new road was paved!
IMO you should be able to gain speed by jumping straight like the first iteration, but only with a slow acceleration. This way new players need only be told how to jump repeatedly(put it in a tutorial vid) and they'll start to see speed gains. Then later they can start to figure out more advanced tricks, like using walljumping to gain speed faster and/or reach a higher speed cap.
no, this means you can't have the new world order of whips march into data core slaying your village and crops right before your weeping eyes
That's how it is, once you get it down you can gain speed easily; once you really get it down you can go very fast and maneuver with it in combat. The only issue I see with it now is it's quite quiet when coming at someone full force, so a global sound needs to be there for it.. Nothing insanely loud but loud enough to know that someone is piloting the g6 into your tech point
There is no perfect time for the jumping, that is the easy access to it.. if it required perfect jumping well then it'd be limited to a select few players, literally. I'm in love with the mechanic and will defend it whole way, unless another mechanic to improve skulk is introduced. The vanilla one is just so.. not right, and I feel that if you make the bhop even EASIER than it is.. then everyone will be doing it at max speeds and I think that's a no-no, the fade however has had both the skill floor and skill ceiling raised; it's interesting and I like it but I don't mind either versions of the fade. So we'll see where that one goes!
Is there friendly fire (only tested in SP, so I don't know about other lifeforms)?
I can't even imagine the horribleness of griefing that would bring.
I could build tons of whips without the supply rising above 200 (3 hives), also, why does the supply have a drifter logo?
I'm saying you shouldn't have to "get it down" just to get the most basic of speed increases. You should be able to start toying with the mechanic without consulting the forums. The higher level skill requirements should be the same as today, but there should be a beginner's version(low acceleration/max speed) that is attainable with jumping alone.
I don't think even the bhop system manages to match aiming all the way in skill scaling though, but it's the only system I've seen manage to create even somewhat paraller learning curve experience.
Any idea what keeps it from becoming a second nature? I consider myself one of the least rhytmically capable people I know and yet the system has reached a point where I don't have to think about the execution more than I think about aiming.
The added advantage is that it allows skulks to scale better without being ridiculously op early game.
I still object to the dog alien moving faster than the flying and teleporting aliens on principle, though!
I had a quick go with the skulk and found the movement quite easy to get the hang of, and quite natural. With that said, I'm still generally against bhop or similar mechanics unless their implementation is really obviously intentional and supported, hence my suggestion above for it to be a tech research of some type.
Supply applies to a lot of things. For aliens it's also 10 supply per Crag, Shift or Shade and 5 supply per Drifter, I think. So if you invest all into Whips, you will have less defense structures in your bases and forward bases in general.
On the marine side it applies to Armories, Phase Gates, Robotics Factories, MACs, ARCs and Sentries. Sentry spam in each of your bases will leave you with less supply for attacking Hives or supporting your marines on the field.
The researchability breaks the idea that the movement matches marine aiming and helps the aliens scale in skill. I can see researchables expanding the way the movement is used (see NS1 leap for example), but I think the basic movement skills should very much be there all the way from the start on each and every lifeform.
One of the things suggested somewhere early in NS2 development was to give skulks a Warsow styled dash key. It would give skulk a brief base speed burst that could then be preserved by plain hopping without any additional speed gain methods. At that point every player has at least benefit in doing some dash hopping and hopefully have easier time transitioning into more deep skill based mechanisms from there.
Warsow dash jumping seen here.
the idea of adding two distinct movement systems is a terrible idea. funnily enough bacillus, warsow did do that, split their movement up - oldmovement which was strafeaccel based, and newmovemet, which provided acceleration by pressing forward - it didnt really have any effect, it gave veterans a bad impression of the movement (newmovement, being 'easier' became the default) and didnt help bring new people to the game.
i found the bunnyhopping to be very inconsistent in balance test. the timing windows should be bigger imo.
also, im generally opposed to going back to NS1 movement mechanics on multiple grounds: 1. stafeaccel is a bug and this is 2013. a movement system should be intuitive, natural to use and be a product of an intentional design process. 2. i think the emphasis on highspeed (particularly for the skulk) undermines the approach taken for the skulk for NS2 - that he should be more sneaky and ambushy. i dont see why you would want bunnyhop on a fade anyway, other than as a concession to NS1 players again. the shadowstep system is similar in many respects aswell.
I have to agree. For me, it's not really a motor skill problem (you can learn anything with enough practice). It's that I never saw the point of it. I tried to learn bunnyhopping once during my counterstrike days, but got bored of doing so. It didn't fit in with the gameplay to start with, and the mechanic itself was something weird and illogical. So it was too much of a time investment for something I didn't really care about.
NS is different obviously, but if you're making a game in which you want people to be able to jump around at high speeds, why would you make the mechanic itself so difficult and counterintuitive to perform? For example, I used to play Tribes a lot. It's fair to say that game has a high skill floor/ceiling, and it's core gameplay focuses heavily on movement skills. Yet, it's very simple at it's base (ski downhill to gain momentum), so it's easy to pick up and incredibly fun as well. I didn't get that feeling when I tried bunnyhopping in CS, and I'm not convinced it's right for NS as well.
I'm not saying there's no room for skill based movement in NS, of course there is. It's just that I don't see the point in implementing some confusing time-consuming mechanic that's based on an ancient engine exploit. Create something new. Like the ss+double jump combo for fades, it's a good example imo. Combine forward momentum with upward lift, get a longer travel distance. It's intuitive, fits the fade gameplay profile, is easy to learn and hard to master.
I have to say I don't know how the Warsow movement system in deeper details, but I don't feel at least the dash is a disctinct movement system. The way I see it, the game needs one consistent movement system that is then manipulated through various means - such as air curving or preserving dash speed.
Dash isn't a replacement or an alternative way of doing things, it's a stepping stone between the inaccessible deep hop movement system and starting point of no movement skill whatsoever. A skilled player might mix up some dashing to his movement, but it alone doesn't let him accelerate past the initial speed that the first dash gives him. I'd vision it as something similar as the initial bhop starting jumps in NS1, just way more accessible than that.
ok lets try this again. What happens when you must type "a" and "s" with 2 fingers for over a minute? Like a > s > a > s > a > s etc.
Many people will probably be able to do that. I have to focus or else it will switch to something else like a > s > a > a > s. etc.
So its not a lack of understanding on the mechanic to bunnyhop or jump. Its the individual nonstop concious rather then subconscious control of all fingers involved, in a continues patern.
With practise I can eventually stretch the boundaries, and I probably will. But its a exhausting way to play and takes focus from playing to simple movement. (my blind typing was also very fast but also very high in errors. Sort of related hehe)
Another point i dislike of the new mechanic is the actual mechanic itself. Right now we do our best to teach newbies to get of the floor. It is rather well doable to walljump up to speed, switch directions a lot and just hop into combat.
This sort of bunnyhop is much harder to mix with a very intensive, often changing directional jumping habbit basicly forcing skulks back on the floor. Its harder to transition from movement to combat.
While it may be intended, as it is not similar to movement without the hop it may also confuse new players on the switching.
I find it very hard, at the moment, to implement this hop in combat.
@neoken
Agreed
i dont see why the skulk particularly needs to have a complex acceleration mechanic, nor why limitless skulk acceleration would be a desirable thing - the skulk gameplay was designed to be played a certain way - admittedly in a different way to how it played in NS1 mind. i feel the new way to be more intuitive and 'natural and logical' to an alien while still being very entertaining.