Armory and Armor
Sewlek
The programmer previously known as Schimmel Join Date: 2003-05-13 Member: 16247Members, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, Subnautica Developer
The programmer previously known as Schimmel Join Date: 2003-05-13 Member: 16247Members, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, Subnautica Developer
hi everyone,
the balance mod thread is currently filled with opinions about armory armor healing. since the mod is about other things as well and this is still an important topic, i think its worth creating its own thread and to keep the other one a bit cleaner.
like any other change in the mod, this has been changed for testing and there has no final decision been made. its for evaluating its impact to the game and those are my observations so far:
As most of you maybe know, in ns1 armories didnt restore armor. I dont remember any big discussions about it back then and people simply accepted this rule. Also the commander was responsible for dropping welders and medpacks, which connected him a bit more to the troops on the ground. Most life forms, like in ns2, were designed around hit&run gameplay style (especially with focus upgrade) which made sure that you can eventually break through heavy marine turtles. There was a mod which allowed to weld yourself, but this mechanic had a completely different impact that to the game than ns2 armories.
In ns2, armories repaired armor. there was one build (not sure if it was internal only?) where armories lost this ability but I was myself playing only 2-3 rounds and couldnt really judge the impact of it on the game. Marines were also very weaker at this time (hit reg, lower performance, animation hitches for skulks and other technical problems) so we decided against this change, the timing was simply very bad.
now with release of gorgeous marines have an edge. especially in competitive play, marines are now winning (as opposed to pre gorgeous, alien wins were standard) and i think the timing is now perfect for trying out new (old) things and to also change the marine side.
The effects armory armor healing had on the game (mostly pub games):
Marines run back to their base to restore their armor (of course). they do that after every little combat where they took damage, since its a good idea to maximize your chances before every engagement. This caused the marines to be more disconnected from the commander. you wont request a medpack when you are anyway returning to the armory, which also causes that new commanders dont learn how important it is to support your troops with ammo / meds. This also causes that marines play very defensive, but in fact they should harass the alien teams economy and take down harvesters, or at least hold position and defend their own RTs. i seen this very often (and granted i played myself often like this) that any momentum marines got, simply vanished because of people being afraid playing without maxed out armor and returning to the base (no matter how far away). it also made forward armories ridiculous strong, and it made medpacks (again, public) the very weak alternative to forward armories. in organized play, this is different, so dont jump on me here
As mentioned in the other thread, it was a problem for aliens when they constantly have to face full armored marines. their play style is designed around hit&run (especially the fade), but their actions had zero effect in the end game. if you dont kill a marine, he will quickly have full armor again. By removing the armor healing, another marine would need to use a welder, which opens up a short time window for another attack since welding distracts. its a very small detail, but still important to mention. switching from welder back to your rifle / shotgun takes some time and aliens can abuse this fact. or, if there are macs on the field, those cost additional resources and the alien team has another target (only 600 dmg points for mac vs 2100 for armory) to weaken the marines position. I have seen in the games i played so far that macs were used more frequently than before as a consequence (those were usually held back until exos arrived).
in the games i played so far, there was always somebody with a welder or macs around. even in vanilla ns2, most commanders research welders first, and you see people constantly using them. also important to note, welders are not that crucial in the early game. marines start with 30 armor, those are in most cases not even worth the repair (against skulk this means one parasite would bring the marine already below a level where the can be killed with 2 bites). so, the early game is quite untouched by this change, what changes though is late game and especially situations where marines turtle in their main base.
the only negative side i observed so far is that marines lose a bit convenience.
there are for sure more things i didnt consider in my post, so feel free to correct to me!
the balance mod thread is currently filled with opinions about armory armor healing. since the mod is about other things as well and this is still an important topic, i think its worth creating its own thread and to keep the other one a bit cleaner.
like any other change in the mod, this has been changed for testing and there has no final decision been made. its for evaluating its impact to the game and those are my observations so far:
As most of you maybe know, in ns1 armories didnt restore armor. I dont remember any big discussions about it back then and people simply accepted this rule. Also the commander was responsible for dropping welders and medpacks, which connected him a bit more to the troops on the ground. Most life forms, like in ns2, were designed around hit&run gameplay style (especially with focus upgrade) which made sure that you can eventually break through heavy marine turtles. There was a mod which allowed to weld yourself, but this mechanic had a completely different impact that to the game than ns2 armories.
In ns2, armories repaired armor. there was one build (not sure if it was internal only?) where armories lost this ability but I was myself playing only 2-3 rounds and couldnt really judge the impact of it on the game. Marines were also very weaker at this time (hit reg, lower performance, animation hitches for skulks and other technical problems) so we decided against this change, the timing was simply very bad.
now with release of gorgeous marines have an edge. especially in competitive play, marines are now winning (as opposed to pre gorgeous, alien wins were standard) and i think the timing is now perfect for trying out new (old) things and to also change the marine side.
The effects armory armor healing had on the game (mostly pub games):
Marines run back to their base to restore their armor (of course). they do that after every little combat where they took damage, since its a good idea to maximize your chances before every engagement. This caused the marines to be more disconnected from the commander. you wont request a medpack when you are anyway returning to the armory, which also causes that new commanders dont learn how important it is to support your troops with ammo / meds. This also causes that marines play very defensive, but in fact they should harass the alien teams economy and take down harvesters, or at least hold position and defend their own RTs. i seen this very often (and granted i played myself often like this) that any momentum marines got, simply vanished because of people being afraid playing without maxed out armor and returning to the base (no matter how far away). it also made forward armories ridiculous strong, and it made medpacks (again, public) the very weak alternative to forward armories. in organized play, this is different, so dont jump on me here
As mentioned in the other thread, it was a problem for aliens when they constantly have to face full armored marines. their play style is designed around hit&run (especially the fade), but their actions had zero effect in the end game. if you dont kill a marine, he will quickly have full armor again. By removing the armor healing, another marine would need to use a welder, which opens up a short time window for another attack since welding distracts. its a very small detail, but still important to mention. switching from welder back to your rifle / shotgun takes some time and aliens can abuse this fact. or, if there are macs on the field, those cost additional resources and the alien team has another target (only 600 dmg points for mac vs 2100 for armory) to weaken the marines position. I have seen in the games i played so far that macs were used more frequently than before as a consequence (those were usually held back until exos arrived).
in the games i played so far, there was always somebody with a welder or macs around. even in vanilla ns2, most commanders research welders first, and you see people constantly using them. also important to note, welders are not that crucial in the early game. marines start with 30 armor, those are in most cases not even worth the repair (against skulk this means one parasite would bring the marine already below a level where the can be killed with 2 bites). so, the early game is quite untouched by this change, what changes though is late game and especially situations where marines turtle in their main base.
the only negative side i observed so far is that marines lose a bit convenience.
there are for sure more things i didnt consider in my post, so feel free to correct to me!
Comments
Thank you Sewlek.
Armories repairing armour just does too much to nullify the aliens hit & run style.
Removing armour repair from armouries means hit and run tactics are useful again. It also brings back the very important question: when to weld? We should be welding each other while on the move, not stopping to have a group weld session (which WILL get you killed by the fade waiting for that very moment), so it raises the tactical/strategic awareness of players, or at least provides an increased skill ceiling for marines' macro placement and an increased strategic depth to the game (eg 'fake' welding teammates to lure the aliens waiting for the weld session into a premature attack... the options are plentiful
@Sewlek: I will be on your balance mod when I next play (I only get 3 nights a week to play), as it looks fantastic. In particular, this armoury change is, in my view, the way forward!
Two Thumbs Up.
Roo
i feel that moving the full healing from armory to advanced armory is sufficient to weaken armory turtling. it's 20 resources and 90 seconds, and would gently evoke the same teamplay while not completely eradicating the alternative.
if it's a matter of balance, i would much prefer interesting changes like adding old alien abilities metabolize or focus.
If it's a problem with accessibility just get hugh to make a tip video about repairing marine armor with a welder.
you are not forced to use welders. the commander can simply build a MAC and park it next to the forward armory. im trying to follow your logic from the other thread, and this is something that immediately comes into my mind when you say "fake team play" (because of not being optional?)
You know my stance on this. HitNRun aliens > convenience, gameplay above all!
I've never understood or accepted the "oh but why doesn't is also repair my armour" argument. Just because such a question might arise, doesn't justify screwing over the alien play style... Besides its already clear that it isn't healing your armour at first glance anyway, so it is also instantly understood that it doesn't repair armour.
A case could be made against aliens getting repairs for their armour at the Hive, Crag or Gorge. But aliens are also more of a lone wolf type of play, not saying there is no teamplay. But in terms of their HitNRun playstyle, it makes more sense for them to have armour repairs. I mean they even have an option for personal Regen and their map control relies on guerrilla tactics, meaning they need to be more self-sufficient. It wouldn't make sense to only regain armour from the Gorge. Even more so because marines are brute forcing their way into areas, they don't base their entire attacks around hitNrun tactics. So it wouldn't affect them, where their playstyle is concerned... Asymmetry speaks it mind in this case
Aliens seem to manage this synergy most of the time with no problems, everyone knows the gorges heal so they normally run to the nearest gorge depending on the local danger.
Maybe have a welder/spanner icon above marines that have welders.
admittedly i hadn't fully considered the MAC alternative... "comm, build an adv.armory we need heals!" or "comm, build an armory and send some MAC's".
i think 'making macs viable' should have been your first bullet
curious to try it... but still think i'd prefer to try more alien abilities (of focus/metabolize ilk) to ease the difficulty of hit and run, rather than change the bread and butter armory for armory + mac.
the remaining problem is that if you're a skulk playing hit and run, how are you meant to know if 'marine X' has been welded back to 90 armor? you still have to go in and hit them to find out, ergo you still have to assume they have full armor.
If this has anything to do with promoting team work that way, it won't work. Its akin to making upgrades cost 1 res. Skulks simply won't take upgrades then.
Snipping your comment, to prevent the thread from going off-topic. This thread is about the Armoury and armour repair -Kouji San
Don't underestimate the value of peer pressure
It's a team game after all...
This is also a good point! More mobility and map presence, instead of losing map control or engagements due to people running back to their safehouse. Staying in combat while keeping your combat effectiveness up to par in that very same area, that is what I want to see return to the battlefields of NS2!
See my post from the other thread:
If you intend MACs to be used that way, there should be some mechanic that makes them less of a micromanagement pain that is easy to gank if left without care.
Exactly. Those hardline against this change seem to be completely ignoring the fact it was tried, tested and worked just fine in NS1 for years.
- Advanced Armories heal armor (I am skeptical about this being a good idea, but I think it's worth testing)
- Welders start researched (in the balance mod, merits consideration for being put in the game)
- Welders costing less (perhaps 2 or 3 res?)
- Some form of self welding, there was one suggestion that you are welded for x% of how much you weld someone (which may or may not be a good idea)
You certainly can weld teammates currently, but why bother because armory.
You can still simulate armor healing by dropping a MAC right next to an armory and it even has the benefit of being able to move with the marines. You don't necessarily have to hump welders. This change is really less about "forcing teamwork" and more about making alien hit and run tactics actually work, which is what their damage is balanced around.
Focus isn't going to make things much better adding it without this change. Focus excelled in NS1 at finishing off wounded marines, we don't really have that anymore. Concerning metabolize, well it is just going to completely reset the engagement if there is an armory present, so once again no real change there. That isn't to say these two abilities don't have their positives, but in relation to the current state of the armory... they won't do much.
its definitely something that would be nice to have in general (basic guard and patrol orders) and that special "GuardAndWeld" order for the mac. another important thing would be queued orders, but that all goes in the direction of improving the commander gameplay in general and im working on it already.
* Fixed a layout issue in this post, that made it look like Sewlek was quoting himself, while it was Crushak being quoted. - Angelusz*
The advanced armory compromise is a good one. I have no problem with advanced armories restoring armor because they're inherently going to be limited to the main base in most games. It prevents the forward armory from being ridiculous, while simultaneously not making the late game a chore.
NS2 also did one bad thing in regard to Armories from NS1, you know where I'm leaning at by now... Healing armor is just bad. It promotes erratic gameplay (running back and forth to the Armory all the time) and turtling, and it effectively pushes away teamplay. If anything, Armories shouldn't just lose the ability to heal armor, but health and ammo too. The Marines have a Comm, right?
Additionally, I don't think TF is a worthy investment for macs alone, so you really need to look at buffing sentries again too. They're a joke in their current state. (They immediately become redundant once aliens have 2 hives and BB) Not forcing commanders to build them close to each other would be a start, as well as getting rid of the sentry battery in general.
No. Jesus. No. Holy christ, no.
One of the worst parts of this game, and certainly the most frustrating in a pub is the arbitrary umbilical cord between marines and their comm. As it is, being a smart marine who plays aggressively is a massive PITA on most pubs due to the slowness of most commanders. Taking that up another step and making every single player heavily dependent on the comm for basic healing and ammo in your own base is perhaps the most horrifying thing I can ever imagine for this game. Mother of god - I disagreed with your post, and then undisagreed so I could disagree twice.
I used the term "fake teamwork" in a post on the original thread. I put the word fake in quotes to try to indicate that I don't really think it's fake teamwork, but to contrast it with other types of teamwork that I thought were more meaningful and better incorporated the important aspects of teamwork.
To reiterate: welding is neither a difficult task nor a difficult decision, so working together as a team to decide to weld and execute the welding action is not (in my view) teamwork, it's just a group activity. Gameplay is about meaningful decisions and difficult tasks; everything else is mere activity, not gameplay.
Other posters later made good points underscoring that welding encourages group cohesion which in turn encourages actual teamwork.
It'll make fades more viable again and finally give marines a real reason to stick together. I absolutely loved the hell out of it when we tested in in the internal builds. Go Sewlek!