Aliens have a res sink, it's called lifeforms dying. What's so different about marine gear?
That's not a res sink. Marines have advanced weapons and aliens higher level lifeforms. A marine or alien does not NEED those advanced weapons/lifeforms. They could play the whole game without them.
The welder becomes an effective health issue. Without it, you BASE unit becomes weaker. There is no comparable res sink for aliens. An example I used was when aliens had to pay for their evolution upgrades every time they died. That 2 res per upgrade every time they died was a res sink like the welder is. It's something that becomes necessary. You *could* play without it, but you are weaker if you do.
Fades did not move faster in NS 1, that comparison is not even remotely true and I'm still yet to see fades in NS2 rely on crouch blinking and shift stepping like crouch blinking was in NS 1.
And the dude who said self welding was a mod for NS 1, well fuck me, you go figure that of all the time I spent in NS1 I don't remember a single sever not running this (probably AMX related) mod and the only times I couldn't remember self welding was in pugs and scrims, if no armour healing in armouries was such a good idea why was this mod even implemented and used on just about every Australian pub NS 1 server since 2.0, completely voiding the team work point being brought up in this thread over and over? This mod was made and used extensively for a reason, forcing team work didn't work in NS 1 and I doubt it will in NS2.
I'm not arguing in theory that this change wouldn't be for the greater good or that aggressive armouries outside hives/choke points aren't bullshit OP in their current armour giving form but this alternative in a pub setting sounds fucking horrible and really doesn't seem like it'd add much to the comp scene where everyone is checking who has welders on every push and going back to buy if they don't.
A comp player already posted a very accurate summary of his recollections of the patches that forced marine welding that's been ignored by the many proponents in this thread and probably for a good reason that he is 100% right, the level of team work and minor decision making at all times in the game as a field marine is clearly over whelming the majority of the player base as is, adding more forced/artificial team work into the mix isn't creating more depth for the game.
Knowing in pubs how hard it is to get marines to push objectives as it is without having 4-5 marines standing around in base "who was welder" "omfg weld me noob" "gg no welds" I will literally never comm again.
Knowing in pubs how hard it is to get marines to push objectives as it is without having 4-5 marines standing around in base "who was welder" "omfg weld me noob" "gg no welds" I will literally never comm again.
This is bringing back memories. NS1 memories... I'm getting a sudden chill...
And the dude who said self welding was a mod for NS 1, well fuck me, you go figure that of all the time I spent in NS1 I don't remember a single sever not running this (probably AMX related) mod and the only times I couldn't remember self welding was in pugs and scrims, if no armour healing in armouries was such a good idea why was this mod even implemented and used on just about every Australian pub NS 1 server since 2.0, completely voiding the team work point being brought up in this thread over and over? This mod was made and used extensively for a reason, forcing team work didn't work in NS 1 and I doubt it will in NS2.
Speak for yourself. It worked perfectly fine without that mod on the server I spent about 2000 hours on. That's all I have to say to the rest of your post as well. Have a little faith in people and drop the elitist attitude. As per the very nature of this game and its steep learning curve, most people playing it invest some serious time in it and are not remotely as useless as you make them out to be. And if you do stumble onto someone new, guess what, YOU can be the one to teach them. If you're not up for that, leave the server and go play a scrim or whatever because public NS2 doesn't need you.
late to the discussion, but i'm adding my voice in support of removing armor healing from armories. also never played with a self-welding mod, it sounds stupid and lame.
I read your entire post. Is this change in your balance mod? If it is, could you add that information to the title. Also, cool, since it's just a mod.
Or is it proposing a change for future builds? It if is, these efforts be better spent making Khamming more interesting.
I'm reading things like, "they should harass the alien teams economy and take down harvesters", and "new commanders dont learn how important it is to support your troops with ammo / meds". This looks like a very limited view. Is there something wrong with variation in play/command style? Players do harass harvesters and comms drop meds (med spam). Just because Comms in your games don't play that way, doesn't mean most games play-out that way.
On the replacement options, telling comms to buy a MAC is kind of funny; especially when you don't include buying the robotics factory first. Now the Comm has to micro manage that, so it doesn't fly off into an empty hall, under a well traveled vent.
The Marines lose more than a bit of convenience. They lose a strategy and an option (good or bad).
Is most games I play, I communicate with my teammates. I explain the benefits of certain moves and strategy; welding each other, med/shield drop, killing specific structures. Why waste time or energy working on Armories? Why not make Aliens more fun overall (since this patch killed that, unless I go fade/lerk) and give Marines foot soldiers more options (more stuff)?
I still hate this idea. More busy work for marines. Hooray, more welding.
Yeah, I know. There's the disagree button on your upper right.
Thanks for telling me where that was. The "busy work" is what separates NS(2) from Counter Duty 13: Modern War Sim 8.
It's doing things other than shooting or otherwise killing the enemy that benefits your team.
And here I thought it was supposed to be strategy.
Also note that busy work doesn't apply unless your'e a gorge (optionally, actually) or a marine, and thus already falls disproportionately hard on marines. This is just piling on.
As a mostly Alien player I kind of like the idea that hit and runs are more effective and force more team cooperation among marines, but I also do not have a problem with the system as it currently stands. This change could definitely make hit and run tactics more powerful but often it's pretty simple to hit and run basically killing one or two in a large group and whittling it down as you gather a large offensive to push marines back out of a space they might have taken with a forward armory.
I'd be interested to see how it plays out but I don't think it's a necessary change.
the only negative side i observed so far is that marines lose a bit convenience.
there are for sure more things i didnt consider in my post, so feel free to correct to me!
I’ve played several pugs with competitive players on this balance mod.
I support removing auto-weld from armouries. This is a necessary change that needs to be made.
The purpose of this post is not to restate the arguments which have already been comprehensively made. The purpose is to bring your attention to some of the consequences that will flow from this change, and suggest some solutions (including where I think you should just observe). This is weighted towards organised 6v6 play.
1) Lerk spikes are now more effective in an average engagement. Lerk EHP and Spike DPS has been balanced around engagements where on average marines had a positive armour balance. This point is number 1 for a reason, it has a huge impact on the alien early game map control. Option: Reduce spike damage by 20%
2) Marine anti-structure dps has been balanced around the ax. Given how critical it is for marines to kill res points, having to drop and then re-pick a welder in order to ax a structure is a perverse outcome. Option: Welders appear in slot 4 OR welder dps increased to equal ax dps
3) NS2 has smaller maps, which means less down time between combat (either vs. Players or structures) with which to weld. Having to watch my LMG unpack each time is really not necessary. Option: Speed up weapon switch animations
4) Marine P.res has been balanced around infrequent welder purchase. I do not believe that marines should auto-spawn with a welder, either by default or through an upgrade. Nor do I think they should be free. Option: Reduce welder cost to 3 P.res OR observe.
5) Marine building time has been balanced for “e” builds, more welders may (or may not) impact this. Option: Observe
6) Marine armour upgrades have been balanced around auto-weld. Option: Consider reducing A1/2/3 research cost OR Observe
7) Alien cyst chains are far more vulnerable to welder dps, you have to assume alien infestation will be pushed back more often. Option: Observe
I’d like to see some of these options in the next version of the balance test.
While I have your attention Selwek, some thoughts for future balance mode experimentation:
1) Please tweak the lerk tracers, they create too much visual clutter that occludes combat. Option: Tracers fire on every third spine shot.
2) Instant “I win” buttons are not a good mechanic. Option: Powernodes in rooms with a tech point are invulnerable while the tech point is capped with a cc.
4) A skulk movement skill that consumes energy (aside from leap). Before leap comes out I don’t have to worry about skulk energy management. While you’re experimenting with the skulk movement system, please consider that aspect as an option.
Aliens have a res sink, it's called lifeforms dying. What's so different about marine gear?
That's not a res sink. Marines have advanced weapons and aliens higher level lifeforms. A marine or alien does not NEED those advanced weapons/lifeforms. They could play the whole game without them.
The welder becomes an effective health issue. Without it, you BASE unit becomes weaker. There is no comparable res sink for aliens. An example I used was when aliens had to pay for their evolution upgrades every time they died. That 2 res per upgrade every time they died was a res sink like the welder is. It's something that becomes necessary. You *could* play without it, but you are weaker if you do.
Okay, why does that matter? There is no such thing as a game of NS2 where neither team spends PRes. This is just another "the teams are different, thus they must be imbalanced" argument.
I don't know why people consider welding team mates/res nodes/structures busy work.
Maybe we ought to replace tech points with flags that you have to "capture" by being kinda close to them, and change resource nodes into some sort of stationary bomb that you have to "defuse" by holding a button on your keyboard.
Or just get rid of everything and make a game where only one player wins, the one with the most kills.
In, NS1/2 you are not playing for yourself, it's for your whole team. And there are many levels of the game that contribute to the success of a team, and when I'm lucky enough to play on a server with people who understand this (more often than these forums might indicate) I have more fun.
There is no such thing as a game of NS2 where neither team spends PRes. This is just another "the teams are different, thus they must be imbalanced" argument.
Actually it's not. My point is that as it stands now, BOTH teams spend their p-res primarily on weapons/lifeforms that improve their avatar and make the game more fun to play. Jumping in an Onos or an EXO is *FUN*. Being able to fly around with a Lerk or a Jetpack is *FUN*. Fades, grenade launchers, the list goes on, they are all things that are FUN to play with. Heck even the gorge - which is a lifeform himself - got babblers to play with.
Now we're saying to marines, "No, you can't spend those 'upgrade credits' on things that will make the game more fun to play, or on things that make you do more damage. You need to spend it on stuff just to STAY ALIVE."
Really? I mean... really?
Again, I can't say this enough, it's not the mechanic I have the problem with. Frankly I love anything that promotes teamwork, especially for the marines. This was something that was very counter-intuitive in NS1 since marines were far more viable alone, and aliens needed far greater levels of teamwork. However, making people spend what little 'upgrade credits' they have on something they may not use, and if they do use is only as a poor-man's medkit, just sucks the fun out of p-res.
Pretend I'm an 'average Joe player who only gets to play a few times a week on a pub server. Convince me why I should be spending a penny on welders instead of things like shotguns and/or jetpacks. What fun will I get out of that? Why should I drain my p-res pool? Why can't someone else do it? What if no one else buys welders since they all want to have FUN and not waste their money on a "stupid welder", what then? What kind of gameplay experience am I going to have?
See what I'm getting at here? It's like the change to skulk speed. You may feel it is balanced, but is it FUN? I say it isn't balanced OR fun. You're punishing marines for no reason. An 8 man marine team could easily go through 15 welders in a 30 minute game. That's 75 res sucked OUT of the marine pool. Congratulations, you just deprived the marines of a dual-mini EXO. This is 'fun and balanced' gameplay?
Sorry, I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with you here. It's one thing to change the marine loadout, but don't go adding extra inane costs onto individual marines "just because". I've yet to hear anyone justify the *cost* of this change. Yeah I get the mechanic change, but no one seems to be able to explain why marines need to be punished and have their p-res pools drained throughout the game. Why is it needed to suck the fun out of the game by depriving marines of upgrades purchases?
I'm sorry, but I just don't see any justification for dumping this cost onto the marines.
How about you get to keep your fun toys longer if you stay welded? You also get to keep them longer if you have somebody covering your back, guess who needs to be welded? You have to make compromises, like: do I want my team to survive long enough to even get dual Exos?
I don't know why people consider welding team mates/res nodes/structures busy work.
Maybe we ought to replace tech points with flags that you have to "capture" by being kinda close to them, and change resource nodes into some sort of stationary bomb that you have to "defuse" by holding a button on your keyboard.
Or just get rid of everything and make a game where only one player wins, the one with the most kills.
In, NS1/2 you are not playing for yourself, it's for your whole team. And there are many levels of the game that contribute to the success of a team, and when I'm lucky enough to play on a server with people who understand this (more often than these forums might indicate) I have more fun.
I'm going to write off your hyperbole.
I call it busy work because it's something you are forced to do, not something that is fun to do. I can't tell you how many times I see this argument when someone has the temerity to suggest that gorges be required to build alien structures. Then they go on to complain about holding M1 to chomp down RTs isn't fun.
Skulks on the phase gate. Weld that back up. Skulks on the power node. Weld that back up. Base getting biled. Weld 4 or 5 things back up. Pushing Exos, get welders on them, STAT.
Everything has to be welded, except for marines. Now we are talking about forcing marines to weld each other (which, by the way, they can already do, so you're not losing any teamwork aspects for those who want to weld other marines).
I know you old timers want this back. But I say:
Stop the madness!
Also, can someone weld my ARCs... they're getting biled again.
@Briatx: You are conveniently forgetting about the MAC unit which did not exist in NS1 and does all the tedious work you can't be arsed to do (and if enough players of your kind are on the server you will lose the game, but so will aliens that can't be arsed to heal their hive after an attack)
@Topic: I'd like to see normal armories only restore health, but only advanced armories restore armor as well.
This way the commander get himself healed up in the main base when he had to leave the chair for a moment.
Speak for yourself. It worked perfectly fine without that mod on the server I spent about 2000 hours on. That's all I have to say to the rest of your post as well. Have a little faith in people and drop the elitist attitude. As per the very nature of this game and its steep learning curve, most people playing it invest some serious time in it and are not remotely as useless as you make them out to be. And if you do stumble onto someone new, guess what, YOU can be the one to teach them. If you're not up for that, leave the server and go play a scrim or whatever because public NS2 doesn't need you.
Sure thing m8, for someone who just admitted to playing 1 server for 2k hours of NS 1 I must be the elitist to point out every single fucking server in Australia ran the self weld mod and every source game ran modded servers, where in my post did I say these people wouldn't intuitively know that welding each other is beneficial, does every single person on earth go for a walk for 30 mins a day and do some push ups and sit ups to not get fat? Public NS2 does not need more forced team work than it already has, the fact this mod existed back in the golden days of NS1 should tell you how well this idea was implemented in the past and steps to correct it.
My issue really isn't with the gameplay or balance implications of this change. That could go either way, and is impossible to know without testing it out.
I'm just saying that, in practice, nobody is going to frequently spend 5 resources on something that they may never use, and which may even result in their death.
@Briatx: You are conveniently forgetting about the MAC unit which did not exist in NS1 and does all the tedious work you can't be arsed to do (and if enough players of your kind are on the server you will lose the game, but so will aliens that can't be arsed to heal their hive after an attack)
Sure, there's MACs. They help, but they cost 5 Tres each, and die easy. And if you buy MACs before upgrades your team will go apeshit. Even with MACs there's no shortage of things to weld.
And I take offense to that very judgemental statement "players like me." You really have no idea so stop pulling assertions out of your "arse".
I'm complaining about it because I do so much of it. Why would I complain about something that I don't do? Also, I'm not even calling for it's removal... but ... stop the madness.
Maybe have a welder/spanner icon above marines that have welders.
This! As alien it is such a huge benefit to be able to anticipate the capabilities of your team, as you specifically know what each lifeform is able to do. It is a huge help to work together as a team as it is pretty clear what role each player has to fulfill, namely the role which is dictated by his current lifeform. If you need healing you go to a gorge and the gorge will know that it might be wise to heal you. As marines, though, you have no clear distinction in terms of roles as each marine is first of all all the same. Weapons might change but still, roles usually don't maybe with a few expections - you won't be expected to charge into the enemy with a GL but then again, whether you have a LMG, a shotgun or a flamethrower, this doesn't tell anything about the role you should fulfill in a certain situation. This is, I think, pretty much a problem when it comes down to the question "Who welders the welderer?". You might be one of the few players who actually pay attention to the armour of your mates and welder them in case of need, but often enough - and I remember that being a huge problem in NS1 - there were times where you were stuck with some braineads who wouldn't get it to actually welder you.
Starting discussion in the chat usually doesn't help as you won't be noticed anyway. I still remember spending - maybe I dramatise it a bit - hours of chatting, jumping, whining, crying, yelling at people just to tell them to use the welder they have available. I have to admit, I don't miss these times. I think marines need better means to communicate in an easy, fast but direct way. Maybe right-clicking on a marine with a welder so he gets the direct command "You there! Welder this guy! Now!" or whatsoever. At least, I don't miss this particular moments in NS1. I like the fact that the armoury repairs amour as well, as marines are therefore a bit more independent. Personally, I don't care about the competitive scene as I only play public games and there you had either a great time as marine in NS1 or a horrible one. In NS2 there's still an in-between. My commander might suck but still, the team can actually do something on its own, thanks to p-res. Half the team might suck but still, the other half can still do something on their own thanks to greater autonomy due to the armoury. Playing as a marine in NS1 was very rewarding but very unforgiving as well. In NS2 it's still sometimes hard work to win a game while as an alien, it feels like everyone minds his own biz but in the end you somehow manage to the win the game without any sense of teamwork of coordination. Simply being a pain in the ass is often all it takes to win as aliens. As marine, though, you need a lot of coordination and teamwork, even now. In NS1, I know, you were even more dependant.
I'd say: I don't miss it. If the armoury should work similar to NS1 then marines need (!) a better and more direct way to communicate with each other. Otherwise, I fear that the same sort of situations will occur again and again. Half your team is low on armour and those guys who have welders don't use them or, you're low on armour and have no clue who actually could heal you. If the commander could designate roles and labeling players that might help, saying, labeling someone as "medic" so that he and the rest of the team knows, that this guy is supposed to welder you. But frankly, I don't want a "For fuck sake, welder me goddamnit!"-NS1-2.0. kind of gameplay. I'm not against it, but only if there's something done in order to help marines organize themselves better.
I don't know why people consider welding team mates/res nodes/structures busy work.
Maybe we ought to replace tech points with flags that you have to "capture" by being kinda close to them, and change resource nodes into some sort of stationary bomb that you have to "defuse" by holding a button on your keyboard.
Or just get rid of everything and make a game where only one player wins, the one with the most kills.
In, NS1/2 you are not playing for yourself, it's for your whole team. And there are many levels of the game that contribute to the success of a team, and when I'm lucky enough to play on a server with people who understand this (more often than these forums might indicate) I have more fun.
I'm going to write off your hyperbole.
I call it busy work because it's something you are forced to do, not something that is fun to do. I can't tell you how many times I see this argument when someone has the temerity to suggest that gorges be required to build alien structures. Then they go on to complain about holding M1 to chomp down RTs isn't fun.
Skulks on the phase gate. Weld that back up. Skulks on the power node. Weld that back up. Base getting biled. Weld 4 or 5 things back up. Pushing Exos, get welders on them, STAT.
Everything has to be welded, except for marines. Now we are talking about forcing marines to weld each other (which, by the way, they can already do, so you're not losing any teamwork aspects for those who want to weld other marines).
I know you old timers want this back. But I say:
Stop the madness!
Also, can someone weld my ARCs... they're getting biled again.
Why is actually fighting for control of territory in a game, rather than capturing a flag or *insert less involved objective from Call of Battlestrike* less fun? You have a functioning base, everything has a purpose. If you wish to reap the benefits of having the structures that provide you with your fun toys, you need to keep those structures from being destroyed! And if you want the res to buy them, you need to keep the nodes alive. And your enemy knows this, they are trying to win too, so they persist in trying to take them out. Structures in NS1/2 are just as viable a target, more so than any player in my opinion.
If you want to play a game where you get to aim and shoot with big guns, go play BlahBlah Deathmatch. Or Aliens: Colonial Marines.
Comm: Skulks chomping on the res node, hurry, save it!
Marine1: Whew! Just barely made it in time! I'll cover you, repair it.
Marine2: Ok
Marine1: Oh, crap, a skulk, good thing I was playing as a team, and covering, pew pew, now it's dead.
OR
Comm: Skulks chomping on the res node, hurry, save it!
Marine1: No, that sounds boring, I'm going to go run off and shoot at aliens by myself.
If situation two sounds like your cup of tea, kill yourself.
Heres an indicator to tell you whether or not your reasoning is faulty:
If your stance on this topic is also valid when arguing for the removal of armories restoring health, then your reasoning is probably faulty. Unless of course you actually want health removed from armories.
So all the people saying that requiring welders improves teamplay and makes the game more complex/strategical which is good, then the commander should also be the only person in the game who can restore health, because that would have the exact same outcome.
I don't know why people consider welding team mates/res nodes/structures busy work.
Maybe we ought to replace tech points with flags that you have to "capture" by being kinda close to them, and change resource nodes into some sort of stationary bomb that you have to "defuse" by holding a button on your keyboard.
Or just get rid of everything and make a game where only one player wins, the one with the most kills.
In, NS1/2 you are not playing for yourself, it's for your whole team. And there are many levels of the game that contribute to the success of a team, and when I'm lucky enough to play on a server with people who understand this (more often than these forums might indicate) I have more fun.
But NS2 IS a game where the player that gets the most kills wins. If a player can aim better and kill half the enemy's vanilla unit, he wins. The byproduct is his team wins as well. Don't delude yourself, the team that gets the most kills in the early game is normally the one that wins. There's nothing around that.
I'm not saying we should remove welding but aliens don't have to build ANYTHING unless they're gorge. They don't have to heal/weld ANYTHING unless they're gorge. Now marines have to build their base, build the RT, weld the RT, weld the ARCs, weld the base, weld the base AGAIN because MACs suck and 1 BB kills all of them, build the 2nd and 3rd base, build the power, repair the power. Now we have to insert (weld teammate) between ALL of the above.
If UWE wants to improve teamwork, then it seems arbitrary. It's like enabling healing only when skulks are next to another skulk. Would that make skulks move out in packs of 2-3? Yes. Would it stop lone skulks/rambo skulks more? Yes (although some might argue that's not a good thing). However, it's more of a forced mechanism in much the same way a "once 5 people are dead in queue, THEN we respawn" would work. Marines would move out in groups more but they do so because the system forces them to do it rather than they're doing it because they understand why it's better.
Also, if we're removing welding from armories, why don't we just remove health as well and let welders heal marines at a slower rate under the OP's logic.
Anyone who plays this game and thinks something like welding a team-mate is busy work should uninstall. I know, there are pub players out there who feel that way, and they shouldn't have bought the game.
But I tell you what, I can fix it for those people too: lets get some hats made and give hats after you weld a billion points of armor. Or even an achievement on steam.
Anyone who plays this game and thinks something like welding a team-mate is busy work should uninstall. I know, there are pub players out there who feel that way, and they shouldn't have bought the game.
But I tell you what, I can fix it for those people too: lets get some hats made and give hats after you weld a billion points of armor. Or even an achievement on steam.
Hate to tell you, but Valve is a well respected and famous gaming company. What they did made them successful and I'd hope UWE could find the same fame and success they have.
Also, busywork is busywork. I'm fine with welding teammate and they're happy getting armour back faster (even when they're in main base). The difference is in this system, it becomes mandatory. "thanks for the weld" becomes "wheres my weld noob?" Remember when healing DIDN'T exist at armories in NS1? "COMM, u fcking noob! You didn't drop us med packs!" "Comm heal here. heal me! Heal! Haaall... now I'm dead, you ass and we're losing main base." Healing at armories reduced BUSYWORK for comms and allowed him to drop medpacks when they were needed and not when bob at base is 25hp down and is screaming for a pack.
The change would change a "kindness" to an "entitlement." That's the main thing I dislike about it.
Welders already cost 5 p.res, and many of us already buy them very frequently at that cost. I know I do.
There are servers running this mod. Stop trying to convince others that it won't work with these baseless hypotheses, and get in there and TEST.
Christ on a bike, I have a post doc like that, always reasoning why there's no point in doing an experiment rather than doing the damned experiment to find out whether the hypothesis still stands or not.
I'll be testing this when I get home, along with all the other interesting changes, and will provide feedback when I have done so.
Anyone who plays this game and thinks something like welding a team-mate is busy work should uninstall. I know, there are pub players out there who feel that way, and they shouldn't have bought the game.
But I tell you what, I can fix it for those people too: lets get some hats made and give hats after you weld a billion points of armor. Or even an achievement on steam.
Hate to tell you, but Valve is a well respected and famous gaming company. What they did made them successful and I'd hope UWE could find the same fame and success they have.
Also, busywork is busywork. I'm fine with welding teammate and they're happy getting armour back faster (even when they're in main base). The difference is in this system, it becomes mandatory. "thanks for the weld" becomes "wheres my weld noob?" Remember when healing DIDN'T exist at armories? "COMM, u fcking noob! You didn't drop us med packs!" "Comm heal here. heal me! Heal! Haaall... now I'm dead, you ass and we're losing main base." Healing at armories reduced BUSYWORK for comms and allowed him to drop medpacks when they were needed and not when bob at base is 25hp down and is screaming for a pack.
The change would change a "kindness" to an "entitlement." That's the main thing I dislike about it.
Who said anything about removing healing at the armory? It's about removing welding from the armory. It's incentive to buy welders for the good of all, not one. And it's not like they can't be picked up by someone else if you die. Also, you don't HAVE to be the one with a welder.
And what build was that that the armory did absolutely no healing? I didn't preorder until 209, I think.
Comments
The welder becomes an effective health issue. Without it, you BASE unit becomes weaker. There is no comparable res sink for aliens. An example I used was when aliens had to pay for their evolution upgrades every time they died. That 2 res per upgrade every time they died was a res sink like the welder is. It's something that becomes necessary. You *could* play without it, but you are weaker if you do.
And the dude who said self welding was a mod for NS 1, well fuck me, you go figure that of all the time I spent in NS1 I don't remember a single sever not running this (probably AMX related) mod and the only times I couldn't remember self welding was in pugs and scrims, if no armour healing in armouries was such a good idea why was this mod even implemented and used on just about every Australian pub NS 1 server since 2.0, completely voiding the team work point being brought up in this thread over and over? This mod was made and used extensively for a reason, forcing team work didn't work in NS 1 and I doubt it will in NS2.
I'm not arguing in theory that this change wouldn't be for the greater good or that aggressive armouries outside hives/choke points aren't bullshit OP in their current armour giving form but this alternative in a pub setting sounds fucking horrible and really doesn't seem like it'd add much to the comp scene where everyone is checking who has welders on every push and going back to buy if they don't.
A comp player already posted a very accurate summary of his recollections of the patches that forced marine welding that's been ignored by the many proponents in this thread and probably for a good reason that he is 100% right, the level of team work and minor decision making at all times in the game as a field marine is clearly over whelming the majority of the player base as is, adding more forced/artificial team work into the mix isn't creating more depth for the game.
Knowing in pubs how hard it is to get marines to push objectives as it is without having 4-5 marines standing around in base "who was welder" "omfg weld me noob" "gg no welds" I will literally never comm again.
This is bringing back memories. NS1 memories... I'm getting a sudden chill...
It's doing things other than shooting or otherwise killing the enemy that benefits your team.
I read your entire post. Is this change in your balance mod? If it is, could you add that information to the title. Also, cool, since it's just a mod.
Or is it proposing a change for future builds? It if is, these efforts be better spent making Khamming more interesting.
I'm reading things like, "they should harass the alien teams economy and take down harvesters", and "new commanders dont learn how important it is to support your troops with ammo / meds". This looks like a very limited view. Is there something wrong with variation in play/command style? Players do harass harvesters and comms drop meds (med spam). Just because Comms in your games don't play that way, doesn't mean most games play-out that way.
On the replacement options, telling comms to buy a MAC is kind of funny; especially when you don't include buying the robotics factory first. Now the Comm has to micro manage that, so it doesn't fly off into an empty hall, under a well traveled vent.
The Marines lose more than a bit of convenience. They lose a strategy and an option (good or bad).
Is most games I play, I communicate with my teammates. I explain the benefits of certain moves and strategy; welding each other, med/shield drop, killing specific structures. Why waste time or energy working on Armories? Why not make Aliens more fun overall (since this patch killed that, unless I go fade/lerk) and give Marines foot soldiers more options (more stuff)?
bus·y·work
Noun
Work that keeps a person busy but has little value in itself.
Having to do pointless things is what separates NS2 from COD. Great selling point that.
I was under the impression that it was in quotes because it was... a quote.
And here I thought it was supposed to be strategy.
Also note that busy work doesn't apply unless your'e a gorge (optionally, actually) or a marine, and thus already falls disproportionately hard on marines. This is just piling on.
I'd be interested to see how it plays out but I don't think it's a necessary change.
I’ve played several pugs with competitive players on this balance mod.
I support removing auto-weld from armouries. This is a necessary change that needs to be made.
The purpose of this post is not to restate the arguments which have already been comprehensively made. The purpose is to bring your attention to some of the consequences that will flow from this change, and suggest some solutions (including where I think you should just observe). This is weighted towards organised 6v6 play.
1) Lerk spikes are now more effective in an average engagement. Lerk EHP and Spike DPS has been balanced around engagements where on average marines had a positive armour balance. This point is number 1 for a reason, it has a huge impact on the alien early game map control. Option: Reduce spike damage by 20%
2) Marine anti-structure dps has been balanced around the ax. Given how critical it is for marines to kill res points, having to drop and then re-pick a welder in order to ax a structure is a perverse outcome. Option: Welders appear in slot 4 OR welder dps increased to equal ax dps
3) NS2 has smaller maps, which means less down time between combat (either vs. Players or structures) with which to weld. Having to watch my LMG unpack each time is really not necessary. Option: Speed up weapon switch animations
4) Marine P.res has been balanced around infrequent welder purchase. I do not believe that marines should auto-spawn with a welder, either by default or through an upgrade. Nor do I think they should be free. Option: Reduce welder cost to 3 P.res OR observe.
5) Marine building time has been balanced for “e” builds, more welders may (or may not) impact this. Option: Observe
6) Marine armour upgrades have been balanced around auto-weld. Option: Consider reducing A1/2/3 research cost OR Observe
7) Alien cyst chains are far more vulnerable to welder dps, you have to assume alien infestation will be pushed back more often. Option: Observe
I’d like to see some of these options in the next version of the balance test.
While I have your attention Selwek, some thoughts for future balance mode experimentation:
1) Please tweak the lerk tracers, they create too much visual clutter that occludes combat. Option: Tracers fire on every third spine shot.
2) Instant “I win” buttons are not a good mechanic. Option: Powernodes in rooms with a tech point are invulnerable while the tech point is capped with a cc.
4) A skulk movement skill that consumes energy (aside from leap). Before leap comes out I don’t have to worry about skulk energy management. While you’re experimenting with the skulk movement system, please consider that aspect as an option.
Cheers.
Okay, why does that matter? There is no such thing as a game of NS2 where neither team spends PRes. This is just another "the teams are different, thus they must be imbalanced" argument.
Maybe we ought to replace tech points with flags that you have to "capture" by being kinda close to them, and change resource nodes into some sort of stationary bomb that you have to "defuse" by holding a button on your keyboard.
Or just get rid of everything and make a game where only one player wins, the one with the most kills.
In, NS1/2 you are not playing for yourself, it's for your whole team. And there are many levels of the game that contribute to the success of a team, and when I'm lucky enough to play on a server with people who understand this (more often than these forums might indicate) I have more fun.
Now we're saying to marines, "No, you can't spend those 'upgrade credits' on things that will make the game more fun to play, or on things that make you do more damage. You need to spend it on stuff just to STAY ALIVE."
Really? I mean... really?
Again, I can't say this enough, it's not the mechanic I have the problem with. Frankly I love anything that promotes teamwork, especially for the marines. This was something that was very counter-intuitive in NS1 since marines were far more viable alone, and aliens needed far greater levels of teamwork. However, making people spend what little 'upgrade credits' they have on something they may not use, and if they do use is only as a poor-man's medkit, just sucks the fun out of p-res.
Pretend I'm an 'average Joe player who only gets to play a few times a week on a pub server. Convince me why I should be spending a penny on welders instead of things like shotguns and/or jetpacks. What fun will I get out of that? Why should I drain my p-res pool? Why can't someone else do it? What if no one else buys welders since they all want to have FUN and not waste their money on a "stupid welder", what then? What kind of gameplay experience am I going to have?
See what I'm getting at here? It's like the change to skulk speed. You may feel it is balanced, but is it FUN? I say it isn't balanced OR fun. You're punishing marines for no reason. An 8 man marine team could easily go through 15 welders in a 30 minute game. That's 75 res sucked OUT of the marine pool. Congratulations, you just deprived the marines of a dual-mini EXO. This is 'fun and balanced' gameplay?
Sorry, I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with you here. It's one thing to change the marine loadout, but don't go adding extra inane costs onto individual marines "just because". I've yet to hear anyone justify the *cost* of this change. Yeah I get the mechanic change, but no one seems to be able to explain why marines need to be punished and have their p-res pools drained throughout the game. Why is it needed to suck the fun out of the game by depriving marines of upgrades purchases?
I'm sorry, but I just don't see any justification for dumping this cost onto the marines.
I'm going to write off your hyperbole.
I call it busy work because it's something you are forced to do, not something that is fun to do. I can't tell you how many times I see this argument when someone has the temerity to suggest that gorges be required to build alien structures. Then they go on to complain about holding M1 to chomp down RTs isn't fun.
Skulks on the phase gate. Weld that back up. Skulks on the power node. Weld that back up. Base getting biled. Weld 4 or 5 things back up. Pushing Exos, get welders on them, STAT.
Everything has to be welded, except for marines. Now we are talking about forcing marines to weld each other (which, by the way, they can already do, so you're not losing any teamwork aspects for those who want to weld other marines).
I know you old timers want this back. But I say:
Stop the madness!
Also, can someone weld my ARCs... they're getting biled again.
@Topic: I'd like to see normal armories only restore health, but only advanced armories restore armor as well.
This way the commander get himself healed up in the main base when he had to leave the chair for a moment.
Sure thing m8, for someone who just admitted to playing 1 server for 2k hours of NS 1 I must be the elitist to point out every single fucking server in Australia ran the self weld mod and every source game ran modded servers, where in my post did I say these people wouldn't intuitively know that welding each other is beneficial, does every single person on earth go for a walk for 30 mins a day and do some push ups and sit ups to not get fat? Public NS2 does not need more forced team work than it already has, the fact this mod existed back in the golden days of NS1 should tell you how well this idea was implemented in the past and steps to correct it.
I'm just saying that, in practice, nobody is going to frequently spend 5 resources on something that they may never use, and which may even result in their death.
Sure, there's MACs. They help, but they cost 5 Tres each, and die easy. And if you buy MACs before upgrades your team will go apeshit. Even with MACs there's no shortage of things to weld.
And I take offense to that very judgemental statement "players like me." You really have no idea so stop pulling assertions out of your "arse".
I'm complaining about it because I do so much of it. Why would I complain about something that I don't do? Also, I'm not even calling for it's removal... but ... stop the madness.
Enough is enough. Don't force more.
This! As alien it is such a huge benefit to be able to anticipate the capabilities of your team, as you specifically know what each lifeform is able to do. It is a huge help to work together as a team as it is pretty clear what role each player has to fulfill, namely the role which is dictated by his current lifeform. If you need healing you go to a gorge and the gorge will know that it might be wise to heal you. As marines, though, you have no clear distinction in terms of roles as each marine is first of all all the same. Weapons might change but still, roles usually don't maybe with a few expections - you won't be expected to charge into the enemy with a GL but then again, whether you have a LMG, a shotgun or a flamethrower, this doesn't tell anything about the role you should fulfill in a certain situation. This is, I think, pretty much a problem when it comes down to the question "Who welders the welderer?". You might be one of the few players who actually pay attention to the armour of your mates and welder them in case of need, but often enough - and I remember that being a huge problem in NS1 - there were times where you were stuck with some braineads who wouldn't get it to actually welder you.
Starting discussion in the chat usually doesn't help as you won't be noticed anyway. I still remember spending - maybe I dramatise it a bit - hours of chatting, jumping, whining, crying, yelling at people just to tell them to use the welder they have available. I have to admit, I don't miss these times. I think marines need better means to communicate in an easy, fast but direct way. Maybe right-clicking on a marine with a welder so he gets the direct command "You there! Welder this guy! Now!" or whatsoever. At least, I don't miss this particular moments in NS1. I like the fact that the armoury repairs amour as well, as marines are therefore a bit more independent. Personally, I don't care about the competitive scene as I only play public games and there you had either a great time as marine in NS1 or a horrible one. In NS2 there's still an in-between. My commander might suck but still, the team can actually do something on its own, thanks to p-res. Half the team might suck but still, the other half can still do something on their own thanks to greater autonomy due to the armoury. Playing as a marine in NS1 was very rewarding but very unforgiving as well. In NS2 it's still sometimes hard work to win a game while as an alien, it feels like everyone minds his own biz but in the end you somehow manage to the win the game without any sense of teamwork of coordination. Simply being a pain in the ass is often all it takes to win as aliens. As marine, though, you need a lot of coordination and teamwork, even now. In NS1, I know, you were even more dependant.
I'd say: I don't miss it. If the armoury should work similar to NS1 then marines need (!) a better and more direct way to communicate with each other. Otherwise, I fear that the same sort of situations will occur again and again. Half your team is low on armour and those guys who have welders don't use them or, you're low on armour and have no clue who actually could heal you. If the commander could designate roles and labeling players that might help, saying, labeling someone as "medic" so that he and the rest of the team knows, that this guy is supposed to welder you. But frankly, I don't want a "For fuck sake, welder me goddamnit!"-NS1-2.0. kind of gameplay. I'm not against it, but only if there's something done in order to help marines organize themselves better.
Why is actually fighting for control of territory in a game, rather than capturing a flag or *insert less involved objective from Call of Battlestrike* less fun? You have a functioning base, everything has a purpose. If you wish to reap the benefits of having the structures that provide you with your fun toys, you need to keep those structures from being destroyed! And if you want the res to buy them, you need to keep the nodes alive. And your enemy knows this, they are trying to win too, so they persist in trying to take them out. Structures in NS1/2 are just as viable a target, more so than any player in my opinion.
If you want to play a game where you get to aim and shoot with big guns, go play BlahBlah Deathmatch. Or Aliens: Colonial Marines.
Comm: Skulks chomping on the res node, hurry, save it!
Marine1: Whew! Just barely made it in time! I'll cover you, repair it.
Marine2: Ok
Marine1: Oh, crap, a skulk, good thing I was playing as a team, and covering, pew pew, now it's dead.
OR
Comm: Skulks chomping on the res node, hurry, save it!
Marine1: No, that sounds boring, I'm going to go run off and shoot at aliens by myself.
If situation two sounds like your cup of tea, kill yourself.
If your stance on this topic is also valid when arguing for the removal of armories restoring health, then your reasoning is probably faulty. Unless of course you actually want health removed from armories.
So all the people saying that requiring welders improves teamplay and makes the game more complex/strategical which is good, then the commander should also be the only person in the game who can restore health, because that would have the exact same outcome.
But NS2 IS a game where the player that gets the most kills wins. If a player can aim better and kill half the enemy's vanilla unit, he wins. The byproduct is his team wins as well. Don't delude yourself, the team that gets the most kills in the early game is normally the one that wins. There's nothing around that.
I'm not saying we should remove welding but aliens don't have to build ANYTHING unless they're gorge. They don't have to heal/weld ANYTHING unless they're gorge. Now marines have to build their base, build the RT, weld the RT, weld the ARCs, weld the base, weld the base AGAIN because MACs suck and 1 BB kills all of them, build the 2nd and 3rd base, build the power, repair the power. Now we have to insert (weld teammate) between ALL of the above.
If UWE wants to improve teamwork, then it seems arbitrary. It's like enabling healing only when skulks are next to another skulk. Would that make skulks move out in packs of 2-3? Yes. Would it stop lone skulks/rambo skulks more? Yes (although some might argue that's not a good thing). However, it's more of a forced mechanism in much the same way a "once 5 people are dead in queue, THEN we respawn" would work. Marines would move out in groups more but they do so because the system forces them to do it rather than they're doing it because they understand why it's better.
Also, if we're removing welding from armories, why don't we just remove health as well and let welders heal marines at a slower rate under the OP's logic.
But I tell you what, I can fix it for those people too: lets get some hats made and give hats after you weld a billion points of armor. Or even an achievement on steam.
Hate to tell you, but Valve is a well respected and famous gaming company. What they did made them successful and I'd hope UWE could find the same fame and success they have.
Also, busywork is busywork. I'm fine with welding teammate and they're happy getting armour back faster (even when they're in main base). The difference is in this system, it becomes mandatory. "thanks for the weld" becomes "wheres my weld noob?" Remember when healing DIDN'T exist at armories in NS1? "COMM, u fcking noob! You didn't drop us med packs!" "Comm heal here. heal me! Heal! Haaall... now I'm dead, you ass and we're losing main base." Healing at armories reduced BUSYWORK for comms and allowed him to drop medpacks when they were needed and not when bob at base is 25hp down and is screaming for a pack.
The change would change a "kindness" to an "entitlement." That's the main thing I dislike about it.
Welders already cost 5 p.res, and many of us already buy them very frequently at that cost. I know I do.
There are servers running this mod. Stop trying to convince others that it won't work with these baseless hypotheses, and get in there and TEST.
Christ on a bike, I have a post doc like that, always reasoning why there's no point in doing an experiment rather than doing the damned experiment to find out whether the hypothesis still stands or not.
I'll be testing this when I get home, along with all the other interesting changes, and will provide feedback when I have done so.
Who said anything about removing healing at the armory? It's about removing welding from the armory. It's incentive to buy welders for the good of all, not one. And it's not like they can't be picked up by someone else if you die. Also, you don't HAVE to be the one with a welder.
And what build was that that the armory did absolutely no healing? I didn't preorder until 209, I think.