Who said anything about removing healing at the armory? It's about removing welding from the armory.
What's the difference?
The principle seems to be removing an automated function in preference of a more active substitute. This principle is still just as valid for removing healing as well.
Anyone who plays this game and thinks something like welding a team-mate is busy work should uninstall. I know, there are pub players out there who feel that way, and they shouldn't have bought the game.
But I tell you what, I can fix it for those people too: lets get some hats made and give hats after you weld a billion points of armor. Or even an achievement on steam.
Hate to tell you, but Valve is a well respected and famous gaming company. What they did made them successful and I'd hope UWE could find the same fame and success they have.
Also, busywork is busywork. I'm fine with welding teammate and they're happy getting armour back faster (even when they're in main base). The difference is in this system, it becomes mandatory. "thanks for the weld" becomes "wheres my weld noob?" Remember when healing DIDN'T exist at armories? "COMM, u fcking noob! You didn't drop us med packs!" "Comm heal here. heal me! Heal! Haaall... now I'm dead, you ass and we're losing main base." Healing at armories reduced BUSYWORK for comms and allowed him to drop medpacks when they were needed and not when bob at base is 25hp down and is screaming for a pack.
The change would change a "kindness" to an "entitlement." That's the main thing I dislike about it.
Who said anything about removing healing at the armory? It's about removing welding from the armory. It's incentive to buy welders for the good of all, not one. And it's not like they can't be picked up by someone else if you die. Also, you don't HAVE to be the one with a welder.
And what build was that that the armory did absolutely no healing? I didn't preorder until 209, I think.
Oh, sorry, should have edited that. I meant in NS1's first... 1-2 years of release before even Electrify RTs came out.
I remember arguments on the original forums where people were arguing comms just had to L2P while other people argued it cut out busywork/excess medpack spending. I also remember crying. Lot's of crying from marines wanting medpacks everywhere around the map in game, after every fight and everytime a marine got bit. It put a strain on the comm. The parallels regarding busywork here and back then reminded me of it.
What would your justification be to suggest they should cost 5 p-res? Why add that cost to welders?
Welders are already bought yet while they cost 5 p-res.
If armories don't repair armor, welders will get even more useful. It makes no sense to increase the usefulness of something AND decrease the cost.
It is a tactical decision if you spend this 5 p-res or not. If I go rambo on a harvester / upgrades, I won't buy a welder. If I have at least one marine buddy at this mission it may be useful. Is it deep in the alien territory? Is the chance of being killed early to big? Decisions are what makes a game interesting. If I go with a welder, aliens have the opportunity to destroy 5 p-res. If I go without a welder, it is easier for aliens to whittle me down with 2 attacks.
Just play the mod. You will see, that welders don't need to be free with this change.
The only point I agree with you is, that it may impact balance. (But even this is not for sure. More forward armor repairing could also increase the strength of marine pushs.) In any case it is more important to implement fun mechanics and to try them out instead of dismissing them in fear of changing the balance. First you implement what is fun. Than you can change thousands of things to regain balance again.
also I think comm equip drop is really underused in NS2 because comm thinks marines can buy their stuff on their own.
But with the pres spending on welders, maybe comms realize that dropping a few of them occasionally may be more useful than 6 pgs/map or sentries.
Also, in late game instead of spamming arcs sometimes it may be more useful to equip your marines with JP/SG so having spent some res on welders before might not be that big of a deal anyways when comms adept to this change
Just play the mod. You will see, that welders don't need to be free with this change.
I tried the mod and I think they do. Welders pretty much become mandatory on a number of marines with this change, from the get go, where as in vNS2 today there's rarely that many welders. As such, it would make sense that their cost now reflects how absolutely crucial they become as 'base equipment'. 5 P.res isn't cheap at all and quickly scales up to impacting the overall amount of people that will have res for things like exos, gls, etc.
Have been waiting for this and would love to see it in game! But then:
-Welding others marines could be a little faster
-Welders could be already researched
-As someone mentioned earlier, put welders to other slot, ex. slot 4 so that u can have both axe and welder(dont make welder to replace mines -> mines to slot 5)
If armories will still heal armor in future, then aliens really need something like focus in ns1, so that its even possible for fades to kill competent marines
also I think comm equip drop is really underused in NS2 because comm thinks marines can buy their stuff on their own.
But with the pres spending on welders, maybe comms realize that dropping a few of them occasionally may be more useful than 6 pgs/map or sentries.
Also, in late game instead of spamming arcs sometimes it may be more useful to equip your marines with JP/SG so having spent some res on welders before might not be that big of a deal anyways when comms adept to this change
This. I've played ns2 nearly 400 hours and have rarely seen commanders(in public) dropping equipment even when sitting on 100+res
with 6+rts(Or if they do drop equip they only seem to drop it in late game. Early shotguns from commanders can make big difference too in some cases.[marines have already lost own pres sgs or used pres on mines and so on]). Its not even rare that when you ask your commander to drop gear, that they dont even know its possible/howto(droppable equipments are not so easily found on com screen than in ns1).
I just read all the 7 pages now and thought about it. I somehow like the idea of removing the repairing and healing functionality from the armory. But then, other things have to be tweaked. And besides, there's some logic-glitch with the building tool and a welder (somebody pointed that out somewhere).
My 2 cents:
- Every marine starts off with a "basic" welder/building tool (as it is now), but that is extented to (really) slowly repair marine armor and structures. Like a handy but weak'n'cheap tool.
- The "advanced" welder has to be researched and is the real deal. Repairs a lot quicker, builds a lot quicker(!), makes same damage as the axe, costs more (10 res). Think of it as real tool for real men.
That would be totally intuitive and logical and you got a new manly tool that's fun to buy and use.
Besides that:
- Mac then have to be worked over to be a less pain-in-the-ass for the comm. Like "patrol here" or "stay and weld" orders.
- Thought about some med-kit (researchable, buyable) which would extend marines to have some kind of healing-class. Could be fun, too.
@|strofix| you can stop trolling this thread now, please.
If you try this mod and decide objectively that this change doesn't work, feel free to post back here saying this, along with an 'I told you so,' if you like. Until then, along with Savant, you're not actually bringing anything meaningful to the table...
Xarius thinks it does have an impact on the marine economy, based on playing the mod. This is the right way to go about arguing your point.
Xarius thinks it does have an impact on the marine economy, based on playing the mod. This is the right way to go about arguing your point.
You realize that, at best, he can only be mistakenly correct, right?
Even if he hadn't only played 32 minutes and 43 seconds of this mod, one persons view is still never conclusive or in any way "meaningful". You gain nothing from trying the mod out. Nothing other than biasing your opinion based on your skewed and anecdotal personal experience.
Theory at least attempts to be objective.
(sorry, i didn't read everything, don't know if it has already been told)
During beta the armories had to recharge after some time in order to keep healing the marines.
I don't see that happening in a long time now. i think it was a good and easy solution for the problem.
Anyone who plays this game and thinks something like welding a team-mate is busy work should uninstall. I know, there are pub players out there who feel that way, and they shouldn't have bought the game.
Oh, so because I disagree with you I should quit?
WONDERFUL attitude and argument.
And to be clear it is the FORCED welding I have a problem with. You can weld your teammates all day long right now and more power to you. I never said to remove that.
It's not forced at all. The comm can med you, too, and any macs around will weld you up. Just like no-one is forcing you to weld that RT which is on 200hp and on fire...
Allowing marines to weld themselves would make the issue even worse even if you remove armories healing armor.
Which issue?
The fact marines now can simply run back to an armory to heal which is often close to the front lines or ask team mates to weld you. Both scenarios have a delay in the time you either A. Run back or B. Ask for support.
So if you remove scenario A since that is what this topic is about your left with B. Even on top pro teams when some one gets damaged more often then not the player whos damaged realized he needs welding before any one else. They then have to say (weld me bob!) then bob has to run over and weld him leaving 2 marines clumped together.
Imagine after getting damaged by the fade instantly whipping your welder out and welding yourself. You eliminate all the delays (instant health), you eliminate teamwork and you can keep your potentially good positioning when he comes back.
Having the ability to weld yourself would make things 100x worse then now.
It's not forced at all. The comm can med you, too, and any macs around will weld you up. Just like no-one is forcing you to weld that RT which is on 200hp and on fire...
You just might help out your team if you do it
Here we go again with the assumption that I don't weld things. Let me repeat myself: If I see a burning RT I'm the first one to go spend res on a welder and weld it up. I'm the first one following Exos with a welder. I do so much goddamn welding in this game. Which is why I don't want to have more welding forced on marines.
MACs in your scenario is a pipe dream. Hard enough getting MACs on Exos where they really count.
So effectively it is forced welding if you want to get marines back to the competitive level that they are at spawn.
Marines have to deal with serious attention deficits that Aliens just don't have to deal with. This just makes it worse.
It's not forced at all. The comm can med you, too, and any macs around will weld you up. Just like no-one is forcing you to weld that RT which is on 200hp and on fire...
You just might help out your team if you do it
Here we go again with the assumption that I don't weld things. Let me repeat myself: If I see a burning RT I'm the first one to go spend res on a welder and weld it up. I'm the first one following Exos with a welder. I do so much goddamn welding in this game. Which is why I don't want to have more welding forced on marines.
MACs in your scenario is a pipe dream. Hard enough getting MACs on Exos where they really count.
So effectively it is forced welding if you want to get marines back to the competitive level that they are at spawn.
Marines have to deal with serious attention deficits that Aliens just don't have to deal with. This just makes it worse.
Apologies, I should have said 'one' where I said 'you' to make it clear that I meant people in general, rather than you specifically.
i must persist that case in point would make the mac more desirable if nothing else. you aren't 'forced to weld' any more than before, a share of armory responsibility is merely passed onto the mac.
"well in that case marine commander has to spend the additional 15tres on a robotics!!", fair point - except that other changes in the mod include a massive overhaul of the alien upgrade structure which happen to be very expensive.
also, commander does not give you neopolitan ice cream, he only gives you vanilla and strawberry. but the armory serves up full neopolitan with the other two flavours plus chocolate. i kinda like the idea that mac brings chocolate to the table. armory is practically a buffet.
If armor welding is removed from the "Armory", maybe we should call it "Healthery" to avoid confusion.
(just kidding)
Normal Armories should heal marines, but should NOT restore their armor.
Advanced Armories should heal marines AND restore their armor.
That's what I would go for as a dev. If it turns out to be completely stupid and to crapcripple gameplay, well then... simply remove it, but please give it a try.
Ceterum censeo Skulkinem movimentum succit ad momentum.
Comments
What's the difference?
The principle seems to be removing an automated function in preference of a more active substitute. This principle is still just as valid for removing healing as well.
Oh, sorry, should have edited that. I meant in NS1's first... 1-2 years of release before even Electrify RTs came out.
I remember arguments on the original forums where people were arguing comms just had to L2P while other people argued it cut out busywork/excess medpack spending. I also remember crying. Lot's of crying from marines wanting medpacks everywhere around the map in game, after every fight and everytime a marine got bit. It put a strain on the comm. The parallels regarding busywork here and back then reminded me of it.
Armory -> heals health
Adv. Armory -> heals health + restores armor
If armories don't repair armor, welders will get even more useful.
It makes no sense to increase the usefulness of something AND decrease the cost.
It is a tactical decision if you spend this 5 p-res or not. If I go rambo on a harvester / upgrades, I won't buy a welder. If I have at least one marine buddy at this mission it may be useful. Is it deep in the alien territory? Is the chance of being killed early to big? Decisions are what makes a game interesting. If I go with a welder, aliens have the opportunity to destroy 5 p-res. If I go without a welder, it is easier for aliens to whittle me down with 2 attacks.
Just play the mod. You will see, that welders don't need to be free with this change.
The only point I agree with you is, that it may impact balance. (But even this is not for sure. More forward armor repairing could also increase the strength of marine pushs.) In any case it is more important to implement fun mechanics and to try them out instead of dismissing them in fear of changing the balance. First you implement what is fun. Than you can change thousands of things to regain balance again.
But with the pres spending on welders, maybe comms realize that dropping a few of them occasionally may be more useful than 6 pgs/map or sentries.
Also, in late game instead of spamming arcs sometimes it may be more useful to equip your marines with JP/SG so having spent some res on welders before might not be that big of a deal anyways when comms adept to this change
-Welding others marines could be a little faster
-Welders could be already researched
-As someone mentioned earlier, put welders to other slot, ex. slot 4 so that u can have both axe and welder(dont make welder to replace mines -> mines to slot 5)
If armories will still heal armor in future, then aliens really need something like focus in ns1, so that its even possible for fades to kill competent marines
This. I've played ns2 nearly 400 hours and have rarely seen commanders(in public) dropping equipment even when sitting on 100+res
with 6+rts(Or if they do drop equip they only seem to drop it in late game. Early shotguns from commanders can make big difference too in some cases.[marines have already lost own pres sgs or used pres on mines and so on]). Its not even rare that when you ask your commander to drop gear, that they dont even know its possible/howto(droppable equipments are not so easily found on com screen than in ns1).
My 2 cents:
- Every marine starts off with a "basic" welder/building tool (as it is now), but that is extented to (really) slowly repair marine armor and structures. Like a handy but weak'n'cheap tool.
- The "advanced" welder has to be researched and is the real deal. Repairs a lot quicker, builds a lot quicker(!), makes same damage as the axe, costs more (10 res). Think of it as real tool for real men.
That would be totally intuitive and logical and you got a new manly tool that's fun to buy and use.
Besides that:
- Mac then have to be worked over to be a less pain-in-the-ass for the comm. Like "patrol here" or "stay and weld" orders.
- Thought about some med-kit (researchable, buyable) which would extend marines to have some kind of healing-class. Could be fun, too.
If you try this mod and decide objectively that this change doesn't work, feel free to post back here saying this, along with an 'I told you so,' if you like. Until then, along with Savant, you're not actually bringing anything meaningful to the table...
Xarius thinks it does have an impact on the marine economy, based on playing the mod. This is the right way to go about arguing your point.
You realize that, at best, he can only be mistakenly correct, right?
Even if he hadn't only played 32 minutes and 43 seconds of this mod, one persons view is still never conclusive or in any way "meaningful". You gain nothing from trying the mod out. Nothing other than biasing your opinion based on your skewed and anecdotal personal experience.
Theory at least attempts to be objective.
During beta the armories had to recharge after some time in order to keep healing the marines.
I don't see that happening in a long time now. i think it was a good and easy solution for the problem.
Oh, so because I disagree with you I should quit?
WONDERFUL attitude and argument.
And to be clear it is the FORCED welding I have a problem with. You can weld your teammates all day long right now and more power to you. I never said to remove that.
You just might help out your team if you do it
The fact marines now can simply run back to an armory to heal which is often close to the front lines or ask team mates to weld you. Both scenarios have a delay in the time you either A. Run back or B. Ask for support.
So if you remove scenario A since that is what this topic is about your left with B. Even on top pro teams when some one gets damaged more often then not the player whos damaged realized he needs welding before any one else. They then have to say (weld me bob!) then bob has to run over and weld him leaving 2 marines clumped together.
Imagine after getting damaged by the fade instantly whipping your welder out and welding yourself. You eliminate all the delays (instant health), you eliminate teamwork and you can keep your potentially good positioning when he comes back.
Having the ability to weld yourself would make things 100x worse then now.
Here we go again with the assumption that I don't weld things. Let me repeat myself: If I see a burning RT I'm the first one to go spend res on a welder and weld it up. I'm the first one following Exos with a welder. I do so much goddamn welding in this game. Which is why I don't want to have more welding forced on marines.
MACs in your scenario is a pipe dream. Hard enough getting MACs on Exos where they really count.
So effectively it is forced welding if you want to get marines back to the competitive level that they are at spawn.
Marines have to deal with serious attention deficits that Aliens just don't have to deal with. This just makes it worse.
Apologies, I should have said 'one' where I said 'you' to make it clear that I meant people in general, rather than you specifically.
i must persist that case in point would make the mac more desirable if nothing else. you aren't 'forced to weld' any more than before, a share of armory responsibility is merely passed onto the mac.
"well in that case marine commander has to spend the additional 15tres on a robotics!!", fair point - except that other changes in the mod include a massive overhaul of the alien upgrade structure which happen to be very expensive.
also, commander does not give you neopolitan ice cream, he only gives you vanilla and strawberry. but the armory serves up full neopolitan with the other two flavours plus chocolate. i kinda like the idea that mac brings chocolate to the table. armory is practically a buffet.
(just kidding)
Normal Armories should heal marines, but should NOT restore their armor.
Advanced Armories should heal marines AND restore their armor.
That's what I would go for as a dev. If it turns out to be completely stupid and to crapcripple gameplay, well then... simply remove it, but please give it a try.
Ceterum censeo Skulkinem movimentum succit ad momentum.