Also, I have personally never EVER witnessed the behaviour you described, but that's probably because I played NS1 on a well moderated server with fair and intelligent players and you are either exaggerating
I don't exaggerate. Ever. This was commonplace, and if you didn't see it that doesn't change the fact that it happened so much that it had to be modded out of the game. Perhaps the reason you never saw it was BECAUSE the mod was on the server you played on. Have you considered that? Most servers eventually started using it, so the occurrence of people suiciding or F4'ing diminished over time.
I was an admin on that server for a good amount of time. It did not have this mod (OR the self-weld mod, for that matter). I haven't seen anyone do this ONCE in about 2000h of playtime. And F4ing was against the rules. Also, I have no idea why anyone WOULD ever do this because it's completely silly and pointless. If you don't have armour and no one is around to weld you, either go back into safety or go on a suicide run to do some damage. Either should be easy enough to do on NS2's tiny maps, but if you're really this concerned this will actually be an issue I can just say I highly doubt it will.
Savant, early on in the thread you repeatedly said your only problem with this is that welders would have to be bought with Pres so it would kill the marine economy but
It's not that I haven't played it, it's that I played it far too much and hated it. Being unable to heal health an armor easily was something that was a major nuisance. I was thrilled when Charlie yanked it out in NS2.
Oh I tried it extensively. We called it NS1, and this was something that was an Achilles heel. Did people suicide often? Damn right they did. How bad was it? It was so bad that server operators actually had to create a mod that disabled /kill in console, as well as disabled F4. (since you could F4 to ready room and rejoin and accomplish the same thing.) I kid you not. Ask any old server OP if you don't believe me. (Check with Voogru, I think he may have even written the mod.)
That's how bad it was. Without armor you were gimped. Suiciding was a quick way to come back with full armor. No marine team ever bought welders to weld armor since we couldn't afford it. Usually there was only one welder that came out when vents needed to be welded. (the other exception was when heavy armor came out, which is the same as with EXOs now, people get welders at that point.) Otherwise it was wasted res to drop welders when they would only be lost when marines died. So killing yourself was a common tactic, unless on a modded server that prevented it.
This is such a gross exaggeration. In all the time I played NS1 I rarely if ever saw this (and no I barely ever played on these servers that disabled those commands). You could almost argue this for parasite (almost), but suiciding because you had no armor? That's a clear sign of an inexperienced and TERRIBLE player. Without armor you are JUST AS EFFECTIVE with your weapon, you can still cause damage and contribute to your team. My question is, why would someone just kill themselves when they can attempt to cause more damage before dying (especially on a pub)? If your response is RFK, well GOOD NEWS EVERYONE, NS2 does not have RFK. Variable eliminated.
With the many other differences in NS2 there is no REAL way to know this won't work until you try it. Or you know you could just continue to forum theorycraft and we could go in circles.
Edit: Honestly, I am not sure why you continue to post your opinion over and over with more and more patently ridiculous arguments based on probable fringe behavior. This would be another thing had you actually tried the mod instead of directly claiming you didn't need to. The best part is there are a wealth of other interesting and exciting changes to try in the mod. I'm really just floored at the absurdity of this kind of dismissal.
I was an admin on that server for a good amount of time. It did not have this mod (OR the self-weld mod, for that matter). I haven't seen anyone do this ONCE in about 2000h of playtime. And F4ing was against the rules. Also, I have no idea why anyone WOULD ever do this because it's completely silly and pointless. If you don't have armour and no one is around to weld you, either go back into safety or go on a suicide run to do some damage. Either should be easy enough to do on NS2's tiny maps, but if you're really this concerned this will actually be an issue I can just say I highly doubt it will.
Really? You never saw anyone jumping down the elevator shaft at the marine start of ns_bast (or whatever map had 2 elevator shafts/holes that in marine start)? If anything, suicide by alien seems like a waste because you'd have to travel for a bit and THEN die, probably not killing anything because you're weakened. If I have 30hp/0armor after the aliens attacked base, it's quicker to off myself and take the 10s respawn than to hope a teammate has a welder, or call for a weld and wait for a welding.
I'm not saying it'll be an issue but you're talking about suiciding for armor is bad when it's doing exactly what your patch wants. Delaying the marine team and letting marines die easier to aliens (by killing the marine anyways)
Really? You never saw anyone jumping down the elevator shaft at the marine start of ns_bast (or whatever map had 2 elevator shafts/holes that in marine start)? If anything, suicide by alien seems like a waste because you'd have to travel for a bit and THEN die, probably not killing anything because you're weakened. If I have 30hp/0armor after the aliens attacked base, it's quicker to off myself and take the 10s respawn than to hope a teammate has a welder, or call for a weld and wait for a welding.
suiciding because you had no armor? That's a clear sign of an inexperienced and TERRIBLE player. Without armor you are JUST AS EFFECTIVE with your weapon, you can still cause damage and contribute to your team.
Also, suiciding IN MARINE SPAWN?! How utterly stupid. Besides, those 10 seconds it takes you to respawn while the base is empty could very well be the exact 10 seconds 3 skulks rush in and get on the IP, winning the round. The same thing goes for literally every other situation. As long as you can still shoot things, why would you EVER kill yourself because you're low on health? Killing yourself can be the difference between losing and not losing an RT when you happen to pick off some skulk from a distance or it can be the difference between killing and not killing an enemy RT when you're so lucky not to run into a skulk. Why cripple your own chance of success, no matter how small it is?
Point being: this won't be an issue, stop trying to make it one.
i think it's actually a pretty 'balanced' trade for marines actually. getting free welder research so early really protects against skulks rush/damaged RT at the beginning.
the downside? i played this on a packed server for about 4 hours just now, and only once i found myself with low armour and noone interested in repairing. then moments later the commander answered my prayer by sending a mac along.
i think you'll only have to suicide to regain armour if you have an unholy crap team and commander.
Really? You never saw anyone jumping down the elevator shaft at the marine start of ns_bast (or whatever map had 2 elevator shafts/holes that in marine start)? If anything, suicide by alien seems like a waste because you'd have to travel for a bit and THEN die, probably not killing anything because you're weakened. If I have 30hp/0armor after the aliens attacked base, it's quicker to off myself and take the 10s respawn than to hope a teammate has a welder, or call for a weld and wait for a welding.
suiciding because you had no armor? That's a clear sign of an inexperienced and TERRIBLE player. Without armor you are JUST AS EFFECTIVE with your weapon, you can still cause damage and contribute to your team.
Also, suiciding IN MARINE SPAWN?! How utterly stupid. Besides, those 10 seconds it takes you to respawn while the base is empty could very well be the exact 10 seconds 3 skulks rush in and get on the IP, winning the round. The same thing goes for literally every other situation. As long as you can still shoot things, why would you EVER kill yourself because you're low on health? Killing yourself can be the difference between losing and not losing an RT when you happen to pick off some skulk from a distance or it can be the difference between killing and not killing an enemy RT when you're so lucky not to run into a skulk. Why cripple your own chance of success, no matter how small it is?
Point being: this won't be an issue, stop trying to make it one.
Because back in those days of NS1, we had no HP healing armories when I played. We had no armories where we could buy our own welders. Health packs had to be dropped by the comm which costed attention and res, res that could be better spent elsewhere. Because sitting in base after having defended it from several skulks normally gave us time to breath because maps were bigger back then. Because I didn't want to waste team res that could be alleviated in 10s. I felt I was being nice buying welders and not crying like the rest of the team when I was down to 95hp/0 armor and ask for a rain of medpacks.
Besides, suiciding against aliens provides the same problem. You run out of base and die to a skulk in one bite when you could have just suicided and won that fight, therefore you watched as your base died to 3 skulks.
Also, I don't recall ever losing a base in 10s to an alien team in NS1.
Maybe I am terrible and should quit NS. I mean, I'm a bad player, obviously this game doesn't need noobs like me. Me and Savant are just terrible players. You don't want terrible players playing your game or voicing our opinions. Let's stop interrupting the master players from doing what's right for the game.
I was an admin on that server for a good amount of time. It did not have this mod (OR the self-weld mod, for that matter). I haven't seen anyone do this ONCE in about 2000h of playtime.
Look, I don't know what to tell you, but it happened in the game and others will say the same if you find people from that era. You say F4 was against the rules... why? For the heck of it?
People did suicide (or F4/rejoin), and it wasn't infrequent. I'd be lying if I said I never did use kill in console. Call me whatever names you want, but when I can double my effective health by spending a few brief moments waiting to spawn, then I'm going to do it. Dying in 4 bites and dying in 2 bites could easily make the difference in an encounter. I could care less what my K/D ratio is.
unless you are willing to put in a few hours with the new mod, I don't think you are going persuade many to your thinking.
I haven't been trying to persuade anyone at all. I'm just expressing my opinion. Here's the problem. Even if I play the mod for 24 hours straight, if I still say I hate the change I'll be called 'biased' and I'll be no further ahead - and I'll have wasted 24 hours playing something I didn't enjoy. Honestly, if I played it for a few hours and still felt the same way, would that make a sliver of difference to anyone here? No - we both know that.
Let's be clear, I'm not trying to change anyone's opinion here, since everyone is entitled to feel how they feel about this. I totally respect people who disagree. Heck, I have nothing *but* respect for Sewlek's efforts, since it's these kinds of forays off the beaten path that get people thinking 'what if'. I tip my hat to him since modding is a thankless job, and especially when you mod something that changes game fundamentals. We've seen a few balance mods and they all have very interesting ideas.
I know it's hard to explain, but there are certain game fundamentals that I am strongly opposed to altering. In particular, the means in which a person is able to deal damage and the way a person is able to heal damage. Both of those variables should be independent of voluntary measures. IOW, a commander shouldn't have to research the ability for marines to heal themselves. (either at an armory or with a medkit) A player should be able to return himself to full health in a game that does not revolve around 'displosable' players. A player should not need to voluntary items in order to be competitive either. IE, I would be opposed to removing the LMG and suggesting that it become an upgrade that needs to be researched and purchased, and that they should start out with an axe alone.
A player should be able to deal 'respectable' damage - right out of the gate. That player should also be able to heal back up to full health, again, without jumping through any hoops. With TF2, you can have a medic to *compliment* your team, but if you don't have a medic you're not screwed for heals. You can pick up medkits and/or return to spawn. The medic is - rightfully - a class that compliments the team. In TF2 they didn't remove medkits to make the medic "a more worthwhile choice" as some have termed it. They approached the concept by making it so that having a medic helps the team, but not having a medic won't leave people with no way to heal.
To apply this to the welder, here's a perfect example. If the power node is destroyed, a person with a welder will repair the power node TWICE as fast as a player that has a 'build tool'. The welder also welds far faster than a MAC does.
Frankly, had they wanted to encourage welder use, they could have done the following:
-Have welders use slot 4 so you don't have to drop it to use your axe
-Have welders become the default build tool if equipped so no weapon switch is required
-Have welders build structures 3 times as fast as a build tool
-Have welders self-repair your own armor so you can weld everyone else *and* yourself
You get the idea...
However, even with the above in place, marines still need a place where they can heal for free. If forward armories are an issue, make armor repair only at advanced armories, or make it only repair at armories near a command chair. I don't mind limits, if a person has to go further, that's a choice they have to make. It's when you remove all armor repair entirely that I just can't support it. It was something I disliked in NS1, and I don't like it any more now.
People need to remember that this was in the game and REMOVED. Charlie made that decision for a reason.
As my earliest posts mentioned I think allowing the AA to heal armor is an excellent compromise because it comes out around armor 2 when welding becomes much more relevant while still allowing hit n run tactics for the aliens to be effective on the front line or near there hives. As well as leaving welding team mates a very valuable option.
I just feel that, as a marine, its ridiculous that I can play ring around the armory with skulks and fades to get a bite or 2 extra in that fight.
Because back in those days of NS1, we had no HP healing armories when I played. We had no armories where we could buy our own welders. Health packs had to be dropped by the comm which costed attention and res, res that could be better spent elsewhere. Because sitting in base after having defended it from several skulks normally gave us time to breath because maps were bigger back then. Because I didn't want to waste team res that could be alleviated in 10s. I felt I was being nice buying welders and not crying like the rest of the team when I was down to 95hp/0 armor and ask for a rain of medpacks.
The times where you couldn't heal at the armoury at all were a different situation altogether and are irrelevant to this discussion. It was changed to heal health but not armour for good reasons, and, from what I have seen, worked flawlessly without people suiciding for years after.
People did suicide (or F4/rejoin), and it wasn't infrequent. I'd be lying if I said I never did use kill in console. Call me whatever names you want, but when I can double my effective health by spending a few brief moments waiting to spawn, then I'm going to do it. Dying in 4 bites and dying in 2 bites could easily make the difference in an encounter. I could care less what my K/D ratio is.
But let's say armouries won't heal armour anymore in the next live build. Would you still do the same? If your answer is no, I don't know why we're having this argument, and if the answer is yes you would be in the tiny minority and I still wouldn't know why we're having this argument.
People need to remember that this was in the game and REMOVED. Charlie made that decision for a reason.
You're a playtester, so you probably know how many suggested changes haven't been and aren't implemented or were changed due to balance later, and who knows how many initially planned features were scratched. Point being, this change is heavily debatable, and along with the majority of people in this thread in favour for it, I know a ton of people including many playtesters have asked for this particular feature to be removed.
Also, there is virtually nothing anyone can say against my rock solid argument of it adding depth and intuitive teamwork to marine play.
So halfofaheaven, since Sewleck is a developer (one of the guys going to work @ UWE) does that mean we'll be looking forward to these changes (the incremental alien upgrades, shot-spores instead of cropdusting, Res while dead) in the next patch?
Seems like a big shift/mixup for balance and the metagame if it's true. Of course, assuming the changes are final and not removed.
Wrong thread, but... AFAIK these are changes UWE is testing half-officially and all of them are being considered. Which does obviously not mean we will actually see all or even any of them in the live build should testing prove unsuccesful.
The times where you couldn't heal at the armoury at all were a different situation altogether and are irrelevant to this discussion.
Not at all. Even still, health was added to the armory and people *still* suicided. Some maps made it easy with environmental hazards. Were you playing NS over 10 years ago when it first released?
It was changed to heal health but not armour for good reasons, and, from what I have seen, worked flawlessly without people suiciding for years after.
Not true. I've said it as has another poster. Start a thread in general where more people can see it. Keep the subject narrow so we don't have two threads on the same issue. Ask people about suiciding in NS. Listen to them. This was a very active facet of the game, so much so that mods came out to prevent it - although many servers still allowed it.
But let's say armouries won't heal armour anymore in the next live build. Would you still do the same? If your answer is no, I don't know why we're having this argument, and if the answer is yes you would be in the tiny minority and I still wouldn't know why we're having this argument.
I consider it more a 'debate'. As for your question - I will evaluate the situation on a case by case basis, just as I did in NS1. Let's be clear here, suiciding wasn't something I did every time I had a bite taken out of me. However there were many times when it was advantageous since I was 'damaged goods'.
In NS2, if they remove armory welds, then yeah I'd suicide if it meant full health with no negative consequences. I wouldn't do it with people in the spawn queue, nor would I do it if we had incoming. If I can save 5 p-res by typing 'kill' in console and be back at full health in 7 seconds, then hell yeah I'm going to do that. (don't think I'll be the only one either)
People need to remember that this was in the game and REMOVED. Charlie made that decision for a reason.
Point being, this change is heavily debatable, and along with the majority of people in this thread in favour for it, I know a ton of people including many playtesters have asked for this particular feature to be removed.
That's nice. I know a ton of people have asked for the HMG to be returned, but that ain't happening either. Just because you ask for something, doesn't mean you're gonna get it.
What matters more than popular opinion is BALANCE. The problem with this change is that makes balance infinitely harder to attain. The developer changes health and armor values based on FULL HEALTH match-ups. When they look to balance a stock marine versus a stock skulk, they don't do it with a marine at 100 health with no armor, they do it with 100 health and 30 armor. That armor level is CRUCIAL for balance. I can't overstate this enough. It's also something Charlie has said as well in his high-level design document. Armor is a VERY sensitive stat. Like I said, there was a reason why this 'feature' was removed.
I played NS1 from release for a few months and then had a break until 3.0 from which on I played extensively. Maybe all the suiciding happened while I was away, but it really doesn't matter too much, because it won't be nearly a large enough issue to have any impact on the decision whether armour healing gets removed or not.
What matters more than popular opinion is BALANCE. The problem with this change is that makes balance infinitely harder to attain. The developer changes health and armor values based on FULL HEALTH match-ups. When they look to balance a stock marine versus a stock skulk, they don't do it with a marine at 100 health with no armor, they do it with 100 health and 30 armor. That armor level is CRUCIAL for balance. I can't overstate this enough. It's also something Charlie has said as well in his high-level design document. Armor is a VERY sensitive stat. Like I said, there was a reason why this 'feature' was removed.
This is what will make marines welding each other constantly more vital to marine play, which is exactly what will add depth and intuitive teamwork to the game.
As I already pointed out at the very start of this thread, this whole argument is rendered futile by the fact that every other situation but a marine in base humping an armoury with an alien directly on them is eventually unaffected by this armoury change, and we can hopefully all agree that marines circling armouries to have quasi infite health needed defusing quite badly. In every other situation where you would normally have a forward armoury to go back to to replenish your armour, there's other marines around. Marines have or can buy welders. And you don't even have to go all the way back to that armoury to get your armour back. In situations where you don't have a forward armoury... suddenly, due to this change, there will be marines with welders to weld your armour. So unless you're saying that your fear is that simply no one will ever buy welders (which has also been proven to be the exact opposite in reality many, many pages ago), you should actually end up being on full armour more than before.
As I already pointed out at the very start of this thread, this whole argument is rendered futile by the fact that every other situation but a marine in base humping an armoury with an alien directly on them is eventually unaffected by this armoury change
Sounds like since this change is so insignificant that there is no need for it to be made. You can't have it both ways.
As I already pointed out at the very start of this thread, this whole argument is rendered futile by the fact that every other situation but a marine in base humping an armoury with an alien directly on them is eventually unaffected by this armoury change
Sounds like since this change is so insignificant that there is no need for it to be made. You can't have it both ways.
I clearly meant not negatively affected and you're nitpicking on words I wrote half-asleep in my second language, because you can't refute any of my actual points.
Bottom line is, the both of us can do this all we want, but the actual effect on balance can only be established by testing. Which you are refusing to do, because you played NS1 and say it didn't work then, ignoring NS2 having a completely different economic model, much smaller maps, an entirely different approach to marine gameplay as well as Fades that can be two-shot.
What balance savant? More like different play style with more depth, teamwork and I hope public commander would finally care his marines than just f@cking forward armory everywhere. F4 problem, great arguments BUT NO. F4 problem was more to just annoy alien like not give res for him (rfk) or have better K/D ratio and yes it was fun for marines. Forward armory isn't the F4 solution it's more like pubstomping and dull play style back and forth. I still can see kill console and f4/j1 back to base and more like prevent base attack..
This balance test mod have been tweaked couple months now with players who know both games really well. NS2 isn't "fully" ready and neither is test mod, but some or hopefully many of their features will come to actual game play and finally the game might shine more than ever.
If people are afraid nonwelding armories then first step is: Only advanced armory will restore your armor if you are afraid to use your little pres to have welder, medpack's are cheap and welders will be. As usual there will be pg's everywhere and normal armories will be more like tactic wise to give shotguns, welders for front assault and when it ends commander sells it.
Yes I have been playing ns1 at 1.0 to latest beta (won couple ensl championships) and was server admin a while. I was ns2 competitive playtester and now I(we) are going to give more challenge for archaea team
What if armouries no longer restored armour when "using them" as they do now, but instead restored armour simply by being in a certain (larger) proximity of them (nanites). This restoration process would be independent of armour level, but would always take something like 15 seconds to restore armour to full. You would still be required to look at the armoury to restore health.
This wouldn't weigh marines down by forcing them to be looking down a welder at another marine's ass the whole game, but would make the idea attractive in certain circumstances. In fact, it would actually add ease of use to the marine's life, while removing the potency of the affect granted. This would also reward aliens who use true hit and run tactics, rather than an alien that attacks once a minute, but because the marines have no welders he receives the same benefit.
I hope public commander would finally care his marines than just f@cking forward armory everywhere.
I told the simple fix above. Only armories within range of a command chair could repair armor. Problem solved - no more forward repair armories and no need to remove armor repair from armories. Any 'res poor' players can still get armor repair, but have to go all the way back to main to get it. Problem solved.
I hope public commander would finally care his marines than just f@cking forward armory everywhere.
I told the simple fix above. Only armories within range of a command chair could repair armor. Problem solved - no more forward repair armories and no need to remove armor repair from armories. Any 'res poor' players can still get armor repair, but have to go all the way back to main to get it. Problem solved.
regarding the f4/suicide to regain armor, there's been a similar practice in CS for as long as i can remember... when your cash drops below the default $800 and you die, you can choose to enter spectator and rejoin team to go back to $800. there is NO OTHER WAY to get that money back while dead, but it could allow you to at least buy a deagle in the following round.
additionally, it's not uncommon for top tier players to suicide in TF2 competitive play. if you're out of position, especially as medic, it's in the enemy team's interest to 'delay' before killing you - to further delay your respawn.
my point? it's not the end of the world if you don't have full armor, and it's not the end of the world if people start suiciding to get their armor back.
I hope public commander would finally care his marines than just f@cking forward armory everywhere.
I told the simple fix above. Only armories within range of a command chair could repair armor. Problem solved - no more forward repair armories and no need to remove armor repair from armories. Any 'res poor' players can still get armor repair, but have to go all the way back to main to get it. Problem solved.
i don't know what you mean by 'res poor'. you can't repair yourself anyway, if you've been spending pres i.e. helping the team then it's only fair that other players buy a welder, your commander drops you a welder or your commander sends you a MAC.
the problem with 'base-only armor regeneration' is that nothing is stopping marines using a forward phase gate then armory humping. you have exactly the same problem circa 1 second of phase gate.
why are you so reluctant to TRY the mod? i have tried the mod, and lack of armory armor regeneration works okay. i voiced concerns before, but it honestly does add more depth and fun to the game for aliens AND marines.
tbh i don't want to go back to vanilla ns2... it's flat and shallow in comparison
I do remember certain instances of killing yourself, but for me it was always an issue of getting stuck. i never really saw people killing themselves due to no armor.
I'm all for the change, but I'm of the opinion that the average player wouldn't like such a major change several months post-release. This would probably be like crags no longer healing armor. People may adapt to it, but there will be a lot of disgruntled players. And of course this isn't beta anymore so it would be highly advised to avoid such a drastic change.
Take baby steps rather than outright removing armor healing from armories. Have healing do less per tick so welders would be more viable time-wise, put armor healing on advanced armories, or have advanced armories on top of a separate research for that specific AA. An alternative should be offered if armor healing is removed. You can't just take out one of the most popular mechanics in the game without offering a viable replacement.
Seriously, flagging me in page 13 of a thread where you flat out refuse to TRY something and instead slag it off perpetually with no good justification is poor form.
I'd also like to add that there is a concurrent buff to marines: welder research is no longer required. That's 10 tres AND the research time.
Seriously... Try the mod before bashing it and whining that it's not fun. Those of us who have tried the mod are telling you it is still fun, and we have been doing so for over 10 pages. It's ridiculous.
Comments
And since your opinion is
so with all due respect, unless you are willing to put in a few hours with the new mod, I don't think you are going persuade many to your thinking.
(Snipped a bunch to keep things concise, not to try to take words out of context)
This is such a gross exaggeration. In all the time I played NS1 I rarely if ever saw this (and no I barely ever played on these servers that disabled those commands). You could almost argue this for parasite (almost), but suiciding because you had no armor? That's a clear sign of an inexperienced and TERRIBLE player. Without armor you are JUST AS EFFECTIVE with your weapon, you can still cause damage and contribute to your team. My question is, why would someone just kill themselves when they can attempt to cause more damage before dying (especially on a pub)? If your response is RFK, well GOOD NEWS EVERYONE, NS2 does not have RFK. Variable eliminated.
With the many other differences in NS2 there is no REAL way to know this won't work until you try it. Or you know you could just continue to forum theorycraft and we could go in circles.
Edit: Honestly, I am not sure why you continue to post your opinion over and over with more and more patently ridiculous arguments based on probable fringe behavior. This would be another thing had you actually tried the mod instead of directly claiming you didn't need to. The best part is there are a wealth of other interesting and exciting changes to try in the mod. I'm really just floored at the absurdity of this kind of dismissal.
Ever.
Really? You never saw anyone jumping down the elevator shaft at the marine start of ns_bast (or whatever map had 2 elevator shafts/holes that in marine start)? If anything, suicide by alien seems like a waste because you'd have to travel for a bit and THEN die, probably not killing anything because you're weakened. If I have 30hp/0armor after the aliens attacked base, it's quicker to off myself and take the 10s respawn than to hope a teammate has a welder, or call for a weld and wait for a welding.
I'm not saying it'll be an issue but you're talking about suiciding for armor is bad when it's doing exactly what your patch wants. Delaying the marine team and letting marines die easier to aliens (by killing the marine anyways)
I'll let someone else respond:
Also, suiciding IN MARINE SPAWN?! How utterly stupid. Besides, those 10 seconds it takes you to respawn while the base is empty could very well be the exact 10 seconds 3 skulks rush in and get on the IP, winning the round. The same thing goes for literally every other situation. As long as you can still shoot things, why would you EVER kill yourself because you're low on health? Killing yourself can be the difference between losing and not losing an RT when you happen to pick off some skulk from a distance or it can be the difference between killing and not killing an enemy RT when you're so lucky not to run into a skulk. Why cripple your own chance of success, no matter how small it is?
Point being: this won't be an issue, stop trying to make it one.
the downside? i played this on a packed server for about 4 hours just now, and only once i found myself with low armour and noone interested in repairing. then moments later the commander answered my prayer by sending a mac along.
i think you'll only have to suicide to regain armour if you have an unholy crap team and commander.
Because back in those days of NS1, we had no HP healing armories when I played. We had no armories where we could buy our own welders. Health packs had to be dropped by the comm which costed attention and res, res that could be better spent elsewhere. Because sitting in base after having defended it from several skulks normally gave us time to breath because maps were bigger back then. Because I didn't want to waste team res that could be alleviated in 10s. I felt I was being nice buying welders and not crying like the rest of the team when I was down to 95hp/0 armor and ask for a rain of medpacks.
Besides, suiciding against aliens provides the same problem. You run out of base and die to a skulk in one bite when you could have just suicided and won that fight, therefore you watched as your base died to 3 skulks.
Also, I don't recall ever losing a base in 10s to an alien team in NS1.
Maybe I am terrible and should quit NS. I mean, I'm a bad player, obviously this game doesn't need noobs like me. Me and Savant are just terrible players. You don't want terrible players playing your game or voicing our opinions. Let's stop interrupting the master players from doing what's right for the game.
People did suicide (or F4/rejoin), and it wasn't infrequent. I'd be lying if I said I never did use kill in console. Call me whatever names you want, but when I can double my effective health by spending a few brief moments waiting to spawn, then I'm going to do it. Dying in 4 bites and dying in 2 bites could easily make the difference in an encounter. I could care less what my K/D ratio is.
I haven't been trying to persuade anyone at all. I'm just expressing my opinion. Here's the problem. Even if I play the mod for 24 hours straight, if I still say I hate the change I'll be called 'biased' and I'll be no further ahead - and I'll have wasted 24 hours playing something I didn't enjoy. Honestly, if I played it for a few hours and still felt the same way, would that make a sliver of difference to anyone here? No - we both know that.
Let's be clear, I'm not trying to change anyone's opinion here, since everyone is entitled to feel how they feel about this. I totally respect people who disagree. Heck, I have nothing *but* respect for Sewlek's efforts, since it's these kinds of forays off the beaten path that get people thinking 'what if'. I tip my hat to him since modding is a thankless job, and especially when you mod something that changes game fundamentals. We've seen a few balance mods and they all have very interesting ideas.
I know it's hard to explain, but there are certain game fundamentals that I am strongly opposed to altering. In particular, the means in which a person is able to deal damage and the way a person is able to heal damage. Both of those variables should be independent of voluntary measures. IOW, a commander shouldn't have to research the ability for marines to heal themselves. (either at an armory or with a medkit) A player should be able to return himself to full health in a game that does not revolve around 'displosable' players. A player should not need to voluntary items in order to be competitive either. IE, I would be opposed to removing the LMG and suggesting that it become an upgrade that needs to be researched and purchased, and that they should start out with an axe alone.
A player should be able to deal 'respectable' damage - right out of the gate. That player should also be able to heal back up to full health, again, without jumping through any hoops. With TF2, you can have a medic to *compliment* your team, but if you don't have a medic you're not screwed for heals. You can pick up medkits and/or return to spawn. The medic is - rightfully - a class that compliments the team. In TF2 they didn't remove medkits to make the medic "a more worthwhile choice" as some have termed it. They approached the concept by making it so that having a medic helps the team, but not having a medic won't leave people with no way to heal.
To apply this to the welder, here's a perfect example. If the power node is destroyed, a person with a welder will repair the power node TWICE as fast as a player that has a 'build tool'. The welder also welds far faster than a MAC does.
Frankly, had they wanted to encourage welder use, they could have done the following:
-Have welders use slot 4 so you don't have to drop it to use your axe
-Have welders become the default build tool if equipped so no weapon switch is required
-Have welders build structures 3 times as fast as a build tool
-Have welders self-repair your own armor so you can weld everyone else *and* yourself
You get the idea...
However, even with the above in place, marines still need a place where they can heal for free. If forward armories are an issue, make armor repair only at advanced armories, or make it only repair at armories near a command chair. I don't mind limits, if a person has to go further, that's a choice they have to make. It's when you remove all armor repair entirely that I just can't support it. It was something I disliked in NS1, and I don't like it any more now.
People need to remember that this was in the game and REMOVED. Charlie made that decision for a reason.
As my earliest posts mentioned I think allowing the AA to heal armor is an excellent compromise because it comes out around armor 2 when welding becomes much more relevant while still allowing hit n run tactics for the aliens to be effective on the front line or near there hives. As well as leaving welding team mates a very valuable option.
I just feel that, as a marine, its ridiculous that I can play ring around the armory with skulks and fades to get a bite or 2 extra in that fight.
The times where you couldn't heal at the armoury at all were a different situation altogether and are irrelevant to this discussion. It was changed to heal health but not armour for good reasons, and, from what I have seen, worked flawlessly without people suiciding for years after.
But let's say armouries won't heal armour anymore in the next live build. Would you still do the same? If your answer is no, I don't know why we're having this argument, and if the answer is yes you would be in the tiny minority and I still wouldn't know why we're having this argument.
You're a playtester, so you probably know how many suggested changes haven't been and aren't implemented or were changed due to balance later, and who knows how many initially planned features were scratched. Point being, this change is heavily debatable, and along with the majority of people in this thread in favour for it, I know a ton of people including many playtesters have asked for this particular feature to be removed.
Also, there is virtually nothing anyone can say against my rock solid argument of it adding depth and intuitive teamwork to marine play.
Seems like a big shift/mixup for balance and the metagame if it's true. Of course, assuming the changes are final and not removed.
Not true. I've said it as has another poster. Start a thread in general where more people can see it. Keep the subject narrow so we don't have two threads on the same issue. Ask people about suiciding in NS. Listen to them. This was a very active facet of the game, so much so that mods came out to prevent it - although many servers still allowed it.
I consider it more a 'debate'. As for your question - I will evaluate the situation on a case by case basis, just as I did in NS1. Let's be clear here, suiciding wasn't something I did every time I had a bite taken out of me. However there were many times when it was advantageous since I was 'damaged goods'.
In NS2, if they remove armory welds, then yeah I'd suicide if it meant full health with no negative consequences. I wouldn't do it with people in the spawn queue, nor would I do it if we had incoming. If I can save 5 p-res by typing 'kill' in console and be back at full health in 7 seconds, then hell yeah I'm going to do that. (don't think I'll be the only one either)
That's nice. I know a ton of people have asked for the HMG to be returned, but that ain't happening either. Just because you ask for something, doesn't mean you're gonna get it.
What matters more than popular opinion is BALANCE. The problem with this change is that makes balance infinitely harder to attain. The developer changes health and armor values based on FULL HEALTH match-ups. When they look to balance a stock marine versus a stock skulk, they don't do it with a marine at 100 health with no armor, they do it with 100 health and 30 armor. That armor level is CRUCIAL for balance. I can't overstate this enough. It's also something Charlie has said as well in his high-level design document. Armor is a VERY sensitive stat. Like I said, there was a reason why this 'feature' was removed.
This is what will make marines welding each other constantly more vital to marine play, which is exactly what will add depth and intuitive teamwork to the game.
As I already pointed out at the very start of this thread, this whole argument is rendered futile by the fact that every other situation but a marine in base humping an armoury with an alien directly on them is eventually unaffected by this armoury change, and we can hopefully all agree that marines circling armouries to have quasi infite health needed defusing quite badly. In every other situation where you would normally have a forward armoury to go back to to replenish your armour, there's other marines around. Marines have or can buy welders. And you don't even have to go all the way back to that armoury to get your armour back. In situations where you don't have a forward armoury... suddenly, due to this change, there will be marines with welders to weld your armour. So unless you're saying that your fear is that simply no one will ever buy welders (which has also been proven to be the exact opposite in reality many, many pages ago), you should actually end up being on full armour more than before.
Do you see how we can do this in circles forever?
Yes, yes I do.
Bottom line is, the both of us can do this all we want, but the actual effect on balance can only be established by testing. Which you are refusing to do, because you played NS1 and say it didn't work then, ignoring NS2 having a completely different economic model, much smaller maps, an entirely different approach to marine gameplay as well as Fades that can be two-shot.
So, you know. Whatever. Good night.
This balance test mod have been tweaked couple months now with players who know both games really well. NS2 isn't "fully" ready and neither is test mod, but some or hopefully many of their features will come to actual game play and finally the game might shine more than ever.
If people are afraid nonwelding armories then first step is: Only advanced armory will restore your armor if you are afraid to use your little pres to have welder, medpack's are cheap and welders will be. As usual there will be pg's everywhere and normal armories will be more like tactic wise to give shotguns, welders for front assault and when it ends commander sells it.
Yes I have been playing ns1 at 1.0 to latest beta (won couple ensl championships) and was server admin a while. I was ns2 competitive playtester and now I(we) are going to give more challenge for archaea team
This wouldn't weigh marines down by forcing them to be looking down a welder at another marine's ass the whole game, but would make the idea attractive in certain circumstances. In fact, it would actually add ease of use to the marine's life, while removing the potency of the affect granted. This would also reward aliens who use true hit and run tactics, rather than an alien that attacks once a minute, but because the marines have no welders he receives the same benefit.
Agreed could be even better than just AA.
additionally, it's not uncommon for top tier players to suicide in TF2 competitive play. if you're out of position, especially as medic, it's in the enemy team's interest to 'delay' before killing you - to further delay your respawn.
my point? it's not the end of the world if you don't have full armor, and it's not the end of the world if people start suiciding to get their armor back.
i don't know what you mean by 'res poor'. you can't repair yourself anyway, if you've been spending pres i.e. helping the team then it's only fair that other players buy a welder, your commander drops you a welder or your commander sends you a MAC.
the problem with 'base-only armor regeneration' is that nothing is stopping marines using a forward phase gate then armory humping. you have exactly the same problem circa 1 second of phase gate.
why are you so reluctant to TRY the mod? i have tried the mod, and lack of armory armor regeneration works okay. i voiced concerns before, but it honestly does add more depth and fun to the game for aliens AND marines.
tbh i don't want to go back to vanilla ns2... it's flat and shallow in comparison
EDIT - REDACTED - I am being drawn into far too negative a discussion at this point.
Take baby steps rather than outright removing armor healing from armories. Have healing do less per tick so welders would be more viable time-wise, put armor healing on advanced armories, or have advanced armories on top of a separate research for that specific AA. An alternative should be offered if armor healing is removed. You can't just take out one of the most popular mechanics in the game without offering a viable replacement.
I'd also like to add that there is a concurrent buff to marines: welder research is no longer required. That's 10 tres AND the research time.
Seriously... Try the mod before bashing it and whining that it's not fun. Those of us who have tried the mod are telling you it is still fun, and we have been doing so for over 10 pages. It's ridiculous.