Seriously, flagging me in page 13 of a thread where you flat out refuse to TRY something and instead slag it off perpetually with no good justification is poor form.
I'd also like to add that there is a concurrent buff to marines: welder research is no longer required. That's 10 tres AND the research time.
Seriously... Try the mod before bashing it and whining that it's not fun. Those of us who have tried the mod are telling you it is still fun, and we have been doing so for over 10 pages. It's ridiculous.
I think its important to understand that someone having a different opinion to your own is never ridiculous.
It is when that opinion is vehement and yet completely out of context. People who were initially against it and tried it ended up liking it which lends credence to the fact that judging it outside the context it is currently in is poor form. Especially since this thread is for feedback about the change in relation to the mod that he hasn't even tried. How many pages of essentially off topic banter has he posted in this thread?
Yes off topic. Because this topic is about the mod which he hasn't even seen yet has commented on endlessly. Good "feedback"
Do I think people who have negative opinions about food they've never even smelled before are ridiculous? Yes I do, and this is the same type of situation.
I think its important to understand that someone having a different opinion to your own is never ridiculous.
That's all.
EDIT - REDACTED - I am being drawn into far too negative a discussion at this point.
The reason I'm getting angry with this (edited) refusal to play the mod is that Sewlek has gone to considerable effort to make the mod in order to give us the opportunity to test out potential future implementations, and several people are hosting servers (not cheap) to allow it to happen.
It's frankly downright rude to all of those people to dismiss these ideas without any attempt to try them out.
If people try the mod, and then raise concerns, I and others in this thread will be far, far more inclined to listen to those concerns.
No, you won't. That's probably the main issue here.
You need to look at it in terms of incentives. Myself and others have already made it clear that we don't want to play with this kind of change. Now you want us to go and put ourselves through something, which we have already convinced ourselves we don't want, for an hour or two, or more. Then, once we have done that, there are only two real outcomes.
The first is that we are wrong, and it is a good change. People don't like being wrong, sad but true. They also don't believe that they can be wrong most of the time, so that possibility doesn't really feature anyway.
The second, far more likely, is that we (after convincing ourselves that we won't like the change) don't enjoy the change, and come back here to express our discontent with it, only to be told that we represent the minority, or that we didn't do it properly.
And lets just be honest here, those really are the only two options.
I personally cannot try out the mod, as the only servers which run it would likely give me in excess of 400 ping. Not a very fair testing ground I'm sure you'd agree. However, with the reasons stated above, I have no need nor reason to try it.
Now. Taking into account that the only posters whose opinions you will accept are those who have either played the mod and enjoyed it, or those who have not played the mod, but think they will enjoy it, you have a choice to make. You can either disregard all theoretical input as "hot air", and create a thread where the only people posting their opinions are already posting to the figurative choir. Or, you can take it on board in its theoretical capacity, and glean from it what you will, and what you find to be theoretically correct or relevant.
However it seems that this thread is already well on its way to the first scenario.
that "we might as well not try it because we probably won't like it" attitude is purely ignorant. if people were never curious to explore and improve what we have, then we'd probably still be living in caves.
Now. Taking into account that the only posters whose opinions you will accept are those who have either played the mod and enjoyed it, or those who have not played the mod, but think they will enjoy it, you have a choice to make. You can either disregard all theoretical input as "hot air", and create a thread where the only people posting their opinions are already posting to the figurative choir. Or, you can take it on board in its theoretical capacity, and glean from it what you will, and what you find to be theoretically correct or relevant.
I don't personally mind people not trying it as long as they either make it clear it's their opinion and they just won't enjoy it, or they come up with valid reasons why this change is bad for the game. The latter has simply not happened yet, because I and others have dismantled every single point against the change while having named several reasons why it's actually beneficial for the game and makes logical sense, and none of these points have been or can be invalidated by theory.
Probably a good change. But... adding tedium, however minor, to address balance seems like a bad idea, even with good intent and logic behind it. Armory is about convenience, nothing more. Your CoD-esque players (the majority on some servers) are not going to weld anyone, and never even buy a welder. Just like they don't buy mines and I practically begged them to buy mines for the few days they were OP. This will segregate the level of play on pub servers even more.
That having been said, I'd love to try it in comp play. I never felt dancing around an armory was a terribly fun way to decide an encounter.
Well I'm telling you this now: I will listen more to anyone who tries the mod out and posts back their feedback.
That's a promise.
About being able to play it, I went onto a US server (from the UK), and at the same time there was at least 1 aussie on there, along with some europeans and americans. If you're in the far east, then fair enough you may have some trouble with ping, but otherwise, it's not impossible.
And your option 1 is a tautology and makes absolutely no sense. 'There's a chance I'd like it but I won't so there's no chance I'd like it.'
I have been through to remove any of my comments which might have been worded a bit too strongly. I do not believe I have been unfair or harsh with my wording at any point in this thread, but I can see it's a heated debate and I could be more moderate with my tone.
I would add that at no point were ANY of these 'abuse' flags put on my posts justified. My editing is in the interest of keeping things civil so that a decent and constructive discussion can be had.
My position remains the same: please, please, please test the mod to actually provide Sewlek with feedback that helps to develop these ideas, and ultimately the game.
as a forum lurker who posts once in a awhile, I must say this, savant along with many others have raised some valid points. But everyone's too heated up to notice or have something against each other, so take a breather and chill.
As for the topic, I am against it. Here are my points if resistance.
Counter points
'It is frustrating to have marines escape only to come back at full strength after only needing 1 bite to kill'
Well, why is the marine allowed to escape in the first place? And even then, your team is getting the advantage. Taking a body of the front lines is no small matter, you gain numbers advantage to push or secure an area, giving map control. If the marines have a forward base, means they took advantage if a breather in an area to set it up and kudos to them.
'It is frustrating to engage marines around the armory'
Kiting has always been a viable strategy in a lot of genres, but that aside, marines are forced to face the armory to heal, giving aliens an advantage of not having him fighting back. The armory does not restore fast enough to out heal a alien, provided he gets hits in, so don't really see a problem.
'NS1 had it and it was fine'
I think NS1 was catered to a more niche crowd rather then NS2 where UWE is trying to open it up to other casual players. While players such as myself enjoy the high leaning curve and gameplay, casual players don't. They tend to devote their time to other games as well, and for a game that needs time and effort to learn, it puts them off even more. I don't claim to want easy mode on, but less tactical stuff such as this can easily be corrected, but this brings me to my next point.
'Give it a shot then comment'
While i might agree with this, the crowd you're playing with is different from your average pub. As you know, people who gave this mod a shot are mostly all up for it or giving it a go. But these players are usually a) ns1 vets who enjoyed it b) forum goers who are more likely to be the more serious gamers. General public tend to just play the game as it is. While it is working now, it might be due to the fact that players playing it know what they must do. Pubs tend not to think like that, and that's where savant points make sense. I can't predict what players might do, but cases of people killing themselves or staying in base demanding to be welded who start to appear.
'MACs can do the job'
Like someone else has said, the investment of teching to MACS is heavy, and furthermore MACS are weak. Even with the nerfs to bile bomb, it is still relatively easy for aliens to kill them without trying real heard. MACS also take time and attention of the commander, putting more pressure on him. I find it funny that while marine commander has that many things to do (look out for rushes, drop med kits, micro arc trains, nano shield, scans) that more work is pile on him compared to karm. Please do not use Asymmetrical argument here please. I echo the same sentiments of the other guy who posted here about asymmetry.
While welders are bought nearly all the time as it is, making it almost compulsory for the team to buy them puts most pub players off. They would rather save for stuff like exos and weapons. And that said, they are pubs, you can't really say that their way of fun is wrong. To each his own.
Also, players to have to take the time to weld delays players giving aliens more advantages. Guess thats why people are saying its 'not fun' and 'busywork'.
If you supporters of this mod can address my points and convince me otherwise, that be great. But for now I'm still against it.
Metal ManJoin Date: 2011-11-13Member: 132717Members
The problem is that it is very easy to drop an armory in every base and during a marine push towards a hive. It is a cheap, durable auto-heal station. In my opinion that is an extremely bad game mechanic that turns the armory into your support rather than your actual teammates. Comm and teammates don't need to focus on supporting eachother as much.
I understand some concerns that there should be a means to full-heal in base. I am very for the advanced armory being capable of repairing armor. It would solve the previous issue and allow for a stronger presence (in time) in a chosen base. Maybe adjust the research times and costs.
It would provide an interesting base dynamic. You would have to decide if its worth the risk to phase back to main base for a full heal or stick near the basic armory. One welder given to two marines holding a base could be a game changer.
One last important aspect is regarding the use of welders. I agree it is tedious and sometimes confusing to drop welders so your teammate can heal you. Often they don't and will run off with the welder (makes me furious). Maybe some feature could be added. One possible solution is if the welder repairs armor for the target AND the user. You wouldn't have to drop it. But maybe make it so you can't self-weld without an ally (gimicky i know). Just a thought.
as a forum lurker who posts once in a awhile, I must say this, savant along with many others have raised some valid points. But everyone's too heated up to notice or have something against each other, so take a breather and chill.
As for the topic, I am against it. Here are my points if resistance.
Counter points
'It is frustrating to have marines escape only to come back at full strength after only needing 1 bite to kill'
Well, why is the marine allowed to escape in the first place? And even then, your team is getting the advantage. Taking a body of the front lines is no small matter, you gain numbers advantage to push or secure an area, giving map control. If the marines have a forward base, means they took advantage if a breather in an area to set it up and kudos to them.
Sometimes it is impossible to finish a marine due to them being good, being with a teammate, or some other thing, and you really really need them dead (setting up a pg in a critical location like system waypointing in veil).
'It is frustrating to engage marines around the armory'
Kiting has always been a viable strategy in a lot of genres, but that aside, marines are forced to face the armory to heal, giving aliens an advantage of not having him fighting back. The armory does not restore fast enough to out heal a alien, provided he gets hits in, so don't really see a problem.
Kiting has nothing to do with it.
'NS1 had it and it was fine'
I think NS1 was catered to a more niche crowd rather then NS2 where UWE is trying to open it up to other casual players. While players such as myself enjoy the high leaning curve and gameplay, casual players don't. They tend to devote their time to other games as well, and for a game that needs time and effort to learn, it puts them off even more. I don't claim to want easy mode on, but less tactical stuff such as this can easily be corrected, but this brings me to my next point.
Well here's some news for you, the learning curve of NS2 is still quite high for 'casual' players with or without the change. If welding each other is too much to ask of a casual player, then building stuff, listening to the commander, not ramboing and getting yourself killed, will also drive them away from the game. aka this is not the game for them.
'Give it a shot then comment'
While i might agree with this, the crowd you're playing with is different from your average pub. As you know, people who gave this mod a shot are mostly all up for it or giving it a go. But these players are usually a) ns1 vets who enjoyed it b) forum goers who are more likely to be the more serious gamers. General public tend to just play the game as it is. While it is working now, it might be due to the fact that players playing it know what they must do. Pubs tend not to think like that, and that's where savant points make sense. I can't predict what players might do, but cases of people killing themselves or staying in base demanding to be welded who start to appear.
sure, but they will learn eventually. just like when they first started and they saw a skulk running on the wall, shot wildly at them and missed every bullet, and died... they learned eventually how to aim. well, at least some of them.
'MACs can do the job'
Like someone else has said, the investment of teching to MACS is heavy, and furthermore MACS are weak. Even with the nerfs to bile bomb, it is still relatively easy for aliens to kill them without trying real heard. MACS also take time and attention of the commander, putting more pressure on him. I find it funny that while marine commander has that many things to do (look out for rushes, drop med kits, micro arc trains, nano shield, scans) that more work is pile on him compared to karm. Please do not use Asymmetrical argument here please. I echo the same sentiments of the other guy who posted here about asymmetry.
so what? they have a follow-and-weld order now, and besides gorges the aliens don't have any AoE that can hurt them. yes the investment is heavy, but so are forward armories everywhere.
While welders are bought nearly all the time as it is, making it almost compulsory for the team to buy them puts most pub players off. They would rather save for stuff like exos and weapons. And that said, they are pubs, you can't really say that their way of fun is wrong. To each his own.
Many have pointed out that it is not compulsory to buy a welder. You go through maybe 2-3 a game, and if you find a group of marines usually someone will have one.
Also, players to have to take the time to weld delays players giving aliens more advantages. Guess thats why people are saying its 'not fun' and 'busywork'.
Lol, welding takes 3-5 seconds. Find another argument.
Gee, Great reply whee (insert sarcasm). Now I understand why there's so much conflict here. People don't understand how the tone of their replies and posts matters a lot.
On to your points then.
1) If its that important for that marine to have to be killed, why aren't you or your teammates diving for him? Even with the marine having team mates (which is usually the case), a coordinated dive on said location should be done by your team. If he's good then like you said, go improve on your skills or in a more demeaning manner, 'L2P'. He won the engagement and if he has the opportunity to heal up, should be able to, unless he decides pressing on with his low HP.
2) please enlighten me why isn't it 'kiting'. Dancing around a object prevent hits from the opponent is considered kiting or juking. Same applies to a gorge dancing around a armory bile bombing the base. Kiting works like that from my understanding. Please tell me why you think otherwise
3) Ns2 learning curve is high, yes I agree. But adding more work for the marines to do adds even more to their burdens. I might as well address your last point here as well. I think you underestimate how 3 seconds can be quite critical. And I'm assuming its going to take slightly longer on pubs since getting a pub to weld you takes some communication/coordination that might drag. For example,within that time, aliens can flood into a room giving them a better staging area rather then be massacred down a corridor. Same applies to a marine running back to heal, Forcing a retreat or wastage of time (which is a resource) is critical to victory as well.
4) I might as well say removing regen from healing carapace would be fine as well? People can learn given time so why not? Putting asymmetry aside, What im trying to say is not everything in NS1 worked well when appealing to casual gamers, and not every change will be welcomed by the general audience, whether they are able to learn it over time or not.Just because most of the NS1 vets think its alright, doesn't mean it is.
5) gorge just cost 10 pres. It's such a easy counter for MACs at the moment. Having a Mac for each marine is your team of 6? And if that marine dies, the Mac would follow shortly. Furthermore, Pathing for macs are not perfected yet (same with drifters) with them getting occasionally stuck around the maps. And who welds the Mac?
6) Yea, and who welds the welder? Even with 2 marines having it, can you be certain that they will work as perfectly as you envision? No hiccups at all? The problem of people not welding or demanding to be welded will come about from this. Like I've said, the servers having this mod probably won't see any of it, but once it goes public, you'll probably see many more cases. NS1 didn't suffer too much due to the small and niche population,NS2 has a much bigger population with a audience.
I am not trying to start a argument here. I'm presenting issues that I as a current player feel would happen if it went live. Try understanding my points if resistance and perhaps we could have a proper discussion wheee. Brushing off the points made by the opposition is not a convincing way of selling your ideas
oldassgamersJoin Date: 2011-02-02Member: 80033Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow
I'm going to cry of happiness once armory removes armor restoring and only restores health.
Because I'm one of the mean guys who drops armories everywhere in map and let the marine run around the armory for constant heal while being in combat. So lerk becomes useless with their gas and bite.
I won't go through every point you've made individually for the following reason:
They are all valid concerns to have in vacuo, and playing the test mod is the only way right now to find out whether they hold up. For me they didn't, but I cannot speak for you.
This leads me to your point about trying the mod. I absolutely agree that I am biased towards this change, and while I try to be as objective as possible, this problem still exists. It is precisely because of this that I have been suggesting that people opposed to the change try it out, because then we will at least have opinions about the mod from both sides of the argument. Furthermore, it will give a much better picture of the potential problems with this change in practice.
If the playtesting highlights no problems, you can't turn around and blame the playtesters later if problems arise in pubs if you have had the opportunity to test out the mod but refused to do so. What I'm saying is that your opinion about the mod, and Savant's, and strofix's, and whoever else it was arguing against this change, these are important opinions to have playtested. And guess who the best people are to test the mod for such problems?
I get where you're coming from Roo, I've tried it and while it took some getting used to, I'm worried it might not go so well for pubs. The only reason is the players I've played with had little to no qualms about welding, which was pretty dandy. But I don't think I'll experience this in a lot in pubs, which is my real concern. Pubs behavior spans a wide spectrum, so it's not easy to be able to predict their reaction in such a controlled environment with players all having teamwork in mind.
My other pointers I brought up were to explain what people who were against this change would feel or view this change would cause. Some of the points brought forward to refute the counter arguments fall rather flat. And with people still insisting on them in a rather 'strong' tone is rather disappointing. I don't think a discussion could ever take place given the heated atmosphere here.
Even while playing the mod, I felt more could be done to further improve on it. I'll make more constructive feedback as I get more time into though. Perhaps even acting as an ass might be an opportune way of seeing how players react.
But perhaps the only way to really see how it goes is to probably release it to the public and watch the outcome. The public's reaction could swing either way.
But cheers for the civil reply. I really can't stand all the snarky comments throw about as of late.
Ps: I would like to actually suggest that UWE have a separate list of servers in different regions running this mod. Advertising it on the main menu could help, with some word of encouragement to boost participation. Since its a official test mod, it would help gather some honest feedback.
Okay great, thank you! Feedback in the other thread would be fantastic. Do you have any thoughts for how specific issues with public play might be mitigated?
While UWE method of encouraging 'busywork' is through points, perhaps some sort of reward like a temporary over heal system in TF2. Teamwork needs to be encouraged, but not felt
forced.
As it stands, it's far too easy for a marine team to drop an armory just outside a hive (perhaps accompanied by a phase gate), and sit there, more or less, the whole game.
Armor recovery requiring welders rather than the armory weakens but does not invalidate this strategy; it gives it an achilles heel in that the armory is not the be-all, end-all means of recovery, thereby meaning that the marines, despite being able to recover health whilst assaulting the aliens from the armory, will not be at peak physical form for prolonged periods of time, and if they weld eachother, it gives the aliens breathing room within which to counter this strategy, or at least occupies some marines with the task of welding rather than attacking.
However, I think it's silly that by contrast there will be no "automated" means of health recovery, except perhaps MACs. Maybe the Advanced Armory could recover armor, albeit at a slower rate than it does now? (20 rather than 30 per tic)
Since that requires a higher investment of team res, you still wouldn't see marine comms building advanced armories willy nilly for assault/pressure unless you were in the endgame, but since there's usually one in base, it'd encourage marines to (at least temporarily) retreat if they want to bring themselves back up to peak condition without someone to weld them.
as a forum lurker who posts once in a awhile, I must say this, savant along with many others have raised some valid points. But everyone's too heated up to notice or have something against each other, so take a breather and chill.
As for the topic, I am against it. Here are my points if resistance.
Counter points
'It is frustrating to have marines escape only to come back at full strength after only needing 1 bite to kill'
Well, why is the marine allowed to escape in the first place? And even then, your team is getting the advantage. Taking a body of the front lines is no small matter, you gain numbers advantage to push or secure an area, giving map control. If the marines have a forward base, means they took advantage if a breather in an area to set it up and kudos to them.
'It is frustrating to engage marines around the armory'
Kiting has always been a viable strategy in a lot of genres, but that aside, marines are forced to face the armory to heal, giving aliens an advantage of not having him fighting back. The armory does not restore fast enough to out heal a alien, provided he gets hits in, so don't really see a problem.
'NS1 had it and it was fine'
I think NS1 was catered to a more niche crowd rather then NS2 where UWE is trying to open it up to other casual players. While players such as myself enjoy the high leaning curve and gameplay, casual players don't. They tend to devote their time to other games as well, and for a game that needs time and effort to learn, it puts them off even more. I don't claim to want easy mode on, but less tactical stuff such as this can easily be corrected, but this brings me to my next point.
'Give it a shot then comment'
While i might agree with this, the crowd you're playing with is different from your average pub. As you know, people who gave this mod a shot are mostly all up for it or giving it a go. But these players are usually a) ns1 vets who enjoyed it b) forum goers who are more likely to be the more serious gamers. General public tend to just play the game as it is. While it is working now, it might be due to the fact that players playing it know what they must do. Pubs tend not to think like that, and that's where savant points make sense. I can't predict what players might do, but cases of people killing themselves or staying in base demanding to be welded who start to appear.
'MACs can do the job'
Like someone else has said, the investment of teching to MACS is heavy, and furthermore MACS are weak. Even with the nerfs to bile bomb, it is still relatively easy for aliens to kill them without trying real heard. MACS also take time and attention of the commander, putting more pressure on him. I find it funny that while marine commander has that many things to do (look out for rushes, drop med kits, micro arc trains, nano shield, scans) that more work is pile on him compared to karm. Please do not use Asymmetrical argument here please. I echo the same sentiments of the other guy who posted here about asymmetry.
While welders are bought nearly all the time as it is, making it almost compulsory for the team to buy them puts most pub players off. They would rather save for stuff like exos and weapons. And that said, they are pubs, you can't really say that their way of fun is wrong. To each his own.
Also, players to have to take the time to weld delays players giving aliens more advantages. Guess thats why people are saying its 'not fun' and 'busywork'.
If you supporters of this mod can address my points and convince me otherwise, that be great. But for now I'm still against it.
every one of your 'counterpoints' has a counterpoint. also, you're dancing around the initially accepted 'for the change' assertion that we believe it will make the game more fun.
'It is frustrating to have marines escape only to come back at full strength after only needing 1 bite to kill'
marines get bitten, comm gives them a medpack but they'll still want to run all the way back to armory to repair. this naturally leads to turtling which is boring both for aliens and marines, and we're only scratching the surface. marines also use this turtle strength to create an easy stranglehold in key areas of the map which force aliens to overcompensate. it's NOT fun.
'It is frustrating to engage marines around the armory'
again, it's frustrating because it's not fun. turtling is boring for both players and spectators. imo the game should be more focused on teamwork, coordination and aggression. the game should embrace clever strategies and improvisation. i'm not saying the balance test changes will fix everything, but things need to be tried.
'NS1 had it and it was fine'
i didn't play NS1 or beta NS2. regardless, i don't accept that it would be more difficult for casuals. it's the emphasis on teamwork which sets NS2 apart from other games, if they wanted boring turtle games they might as well continue playing instaspawn dustbowl in team fortress 2.
'Give it a shot then comment'
granted if the balance test mod was to go live, it would cause a ruckus. there are a lot of radical changes and while a lot of people will be excited; there will always be a lot of people left in dismay. however, if you don't try the mod then you can be justifiably catalogued with the 'inevitable dismay' group.
'MACs can do the job'
mac's are not an expensive or slow tech. it takes 20 tres and 22 seconds to have a mac on the field. in the current balance mod build, aliens have to spend triple tres to get full carapace and even more tres to enable the late game abilities such as stomp.
by the way, noone's being forced to buy a welder. in the live build i buy a welder whenever i have spare pres (after plans to save for jetpack or shotgun etc), that exact same logic works in the balance test mod. someone always has a welder, and if they don't then your commander can drop an armory and a tres welder or he can drop a robotics and MAC.
Creating stranglehold are what aliens excel at. Throw clogs, hydras and 2 gorges, an alien team can hold marines for a long period of time, possibly shutting them out for good at the early game (the old smelting hydra/clog block rush comes to mind). So it's not frustrating for marines in that case? So unfortunately, I think stranglehold is a rather weak argument to bring in as it works both ways.
Fortunately for me, rarely do marines in my server fall back fast. They tend to stay out field for extended periods of time (at the cost of
medpacks)
To your points of turtling, ever since gorgeous I have not fought a turtle from marines. Concede helps reduce the off chance even more. Even if there was one i missed out, its easy for the onos train to reduce it quickly with gorge/lerk support. Teamwork and aggression like you said. Boring turtle games are few and far between, and easily countered.
I have given it a shot. And will Be for the next few days. Do read my posts after.
Carapace is a permanent upgrade. It's more similar to armor upgrades actually. So can't compare them to
MACs.
MACs are weak, and needs replacing very often, even in this Mod. I would actually like a more solid solution rather then macs that is. I don't think macs can cover it sufficiently. By heavy investment, what im saying is that it does not grant you any tech that helps out in the late game. Rather it takes tres away from teching to JPs and Exos and the costs to constantly provide marines with a Mac buddy might build up. So I think another solution could be done.
Yes, you're right. No one is forced to buy a welder. But it feels like it is see. While playing this mod I don't, cause my team tends to do that, leaving me to spend my res elsewhere. But if it is applied to pubs? Like I've told Roo, you'll not know how the public reacts to this. Perhaps a more open trial for this mod would give the designer the honest feedback he needs rather then get it from slightly biased sources such as us?
Like I said, I'm bringing up points of resistance that potential players would have. If you could directly answer them and explain/refute them, you'll win more supporters right? No need to get aggressive and point fingers saying I'm 'one of them'. I'm Approaching this to be a discussion and not a argument. Perhaps this mod should take into account these questions that potential opposition might ask and address them?
I did like to hear some solid suggestions to address these issues. And why not? Like you said new stuff is always welcomed (usually) and I too would like more variety in my games as well. Cheers!
if only there was a magic word which would allow both sides agree...
imagine that, no wars or conflict of any kind.
that's essentially what you're asking for :P
i've just got one thing to say before i'm done; aliens can stranglehold but marines have the ARC to destroy that which serves as an effective turtle deterrent. aliens don't have a turtle deterrent of their own, except onos, which doesn't usually arrive until ~20 minutes into a game. thereby allowing marines 20 or so minutes of omni-crutch armory turtles.
Alright Hokes, here's why I support removing armories healing armor.
1. It lessens the marine connection with the base, while strengthening the connection with the Comm and with teammates. It turns the teammates into your support, as the armory provides nothing that the Comm can't drop.
2. It enables alien hit and run. If the means of healing is mobile, that means marines will act more mobile. More marines out in the field, less at base, defending between phases. Fades, the quintessential hit and run alien, would gain a more concrete role, as marines in the field is where they excel. It would also allow hit and run against forward marine bases, instead of all or nothing victories.
3. It gives a more concrete reason to get MACs. As it stands they aren't utilized very much, and half of their purpose is taken by the armory. You would only need to get one, as it would just stay in base and repair.
4. It removes the false choice of armory, weld, or MAC. Choices are fine, but not when one option is far and away better than the others. An armory's only weakness is the fact that it is stationary, which in turn encourages more sedentary methods of play. MACs require investing in an expensive tech tree, and welder's require both Pres and teamwork. With the armory removed, that leaves either investing in the fragile, expensive, but autonomous MACs, or increasing coordination in getting everyone welded up.
Seems like this change, unlike most of the other ones being made in the balance mod is going to remain quite controversial. Seems unlikely then that UWE is really going to risk it, as a status quo is probably more preferable over splitting the community. Personally I think it feels unintuitive when you can't get armor at your base, it's your base for a reason, you should be able to get up to full strenght there, the same way aliens can (and aliens should imo even be able to change upgrades near a hive too) I do believe it's a great idea for 'in-field' play though once PGs are up that just means people are going to phase back to base to get armour there instead. (Comes at a trade-off of course, but it's not exactly great gameplay)
It'd be a shame if UWE listened to a small group of mostly blind naysayers instead of improving the game for the majority. The only valid point brought up against this change is still "some people might not like it", while there's a lot of different aspects to how it would improve gameplay.
it's not controversial in-game, it's only controversial on the forum where ppl theorycraft...
the restrictive/negative effect on the game is so small that it's unnoticible amongst the many other huge changes... the only relevant effect you notice during a game is the gratitude towards the guy who stops to weld you.
In NS1 it worked fine on any pub server. Comm would drop a couple of welders and marines would weld each other after each engagement which makes alot of sense because it makes you that much stronger without taking away momentum like frequent armory humping does.
Please don't forget that maps were bigger in NS1 and the game's pace was *typically* slower. NS2 is more fast-paced and the maps are smaller. Every second counts in NS2 and taking your welder out leaves you incredibly vulnerable "out in the field."
Personally, I think armories should only give health, but I'm just pointing out the fact that you cannot draw a direct and perfect comparison between NS1 and NS2 gameplay.
Comments
I think its important to understand that someone having a different opinion to your own is never ridiculous.
That's all.
Yes off topic. Because this topic is about the mod which he hasn't even seen yet has commented on endlessly. Good "feedback"
Do I think people who have negative opinions about food they've never even smelled before are ridiculous? Yes I do, and this is the same type of situation.
EDIT - REDACTED - I am being drawn into far too negative a discussion at this point.
The reason I'm getting angry with this (edited) refusal to play the mod is that Sewlek has gone to considerable effort to make the mod in order to give us the opportunity to test out potential future implementations, and several people are hosting servers (not cheap) to allow it to happen.
It's frankly downright rude to all of those people to dismiss these ideas without any attempt to try them out.
THAT is all.
No, you won't. That's probably the main issue here.
You need to look at it in terms of incentives. Myself and others have already made it clear that we don't want to play with this kind of change. Now you want us to go and put ourselves through something, which we have already convinced ourselves we don't want, for an hour or two, or more. Then, once we have done that, there are only two real outcomes.
The first is that we are wrong, and it is a good change. People don't like being wrong, sad but true. They also don't believe that they can be wrong most of the time, so that possibility doesn't really feature anyway.
The second, far more likely, is that we (after convincing ourselves that we won't like the change) don't enjoy the change, and come back here to express our discontent with it, only to be told that we represent the minority, or that we didn't do it properly.
And lets just be honest here, those really are the only two options.
I personally cannot try out the mod, as the only servers which run it would likely give me in excess of 400 ping. Not a very fair testing ground I'm sure you'd agree. However, with the reasons stated above, I have no need nor reason to try it.
Now. Taking into account that the only posters whose opinions you will accept are those who have either played the mod and enjoyed it, or those who have not played the mod, but think they will enjoy it, you have a choice to make. You can either disregard all theoretical input as "hot air", and create a thread where the only people posting their opinions are already posting to the figurative choir. Or, you can take it on board in its theoretical capacity, and glean from it what you will, and what you find to be theoretically correct or relevant.
However it seems that this thread is already well on its way to the first scenario.
that "we might as well not try it because we probably won't like it" attitude is purely ignorant. if people were never curious to explore and improve what we have, then we'd probably still be living in caves.
Or option 3. You don't try it and you don't talk about it.
Why are you in a conversation about a mod you can't play?
If you don't want to (or can't) try it, and can't discuss how it's being implemented then why jump into a thread about said mod?
Just trollin? The people who tried it and didn't like it have valid opinions but the loudest opponents aren't those people.
That having been said, I'd love to try it in comp play. I never felt dancing around an armory was a terribly fun way to decide an encounter.
Well I'm telling you this now: I will listen more to anyone who tries the mod out and posts back their feedback.
That's a promise.
About being able to play it, I went onto a US server (from the UK), and at the same time there was at least 1 aussie on there, along with some europeans and americans. If you're in the far east, then fair enough you may have some trouble with ping, but otherwise, it's not impossible.
And your option 1 is a tautology and makes absolutely no sense. 'There's a chance I'd like it but I won't so there's no chance I'd like it.'
I would add that at no point were ANY of these 'abuse' flags put on my posts justified. My editing is in the interest of keeping things civil so that a decent and constructive discussion can be had.
My position remains the same: please, please, please test the mod to actually provide Sewlek with feedback that helps to develop these ideas, and ultimately the game.
As for the topic, I am against it. Here are my points if resistance.
Counter points
'It is frustrating to have marines escape only to come back at full strength after only needing 1 bite to kill'
Well, why is the marine allowed to escape in the first place? And even then, your team is getting the advantage. Taking a body of the front lines is no small matter, you gain numbers advantage to push or secure an area, giving map control. If the marines have a forward base, means they took advantage if a breather in an area to set it up and kudos to them.
'It is frustrating to engage marines around the armory'
Kiting has always been a viable strategy in a lot of genres, but that aside, marines are forced to face the armory to heal, giving aliens an advantage of not having him fighting back. The armory does not restore fast enough to out heal a alien, provided he gets hits in, so don't really see a problem.
'NS1 had it and it was fine'
I think NS1 was catered to a more niche crowd rather then NS2 where UWE is trying to open it up to other casual players. While players such as myself enjoy the high leaning curve and gameplay, casual players don't. They tend to devote their time to other games as well, and for a game that needs time and effort to learn, it puts them off even more. I don't claim to want easy mode on, but less tactical stuff such as this can easily be corrected, but this brings me to my next point.
'Give it a shot then comment'
While i might agree with this, the crowd you're playing with is different from your average pub. As you know, people who gave this mod a shot are mostly all up for it or giving it a go. But these players are usually a) ns1 vets who enjoyed it b) forum goers who are more likely to be the more serious gamers. General public tend to just play the game as it is. While it is working now, it might be due to the fact that players playing it know what they must do. Pubs tend not to think like that, and that's where savant points make sense. I can't predict what players might do, but cases of people killing themselves or staying in base demanding to be welded who start to appear.
'MACs can do the job'
Like someone else has said, the investment of teching to MACS is heavy, and furthermore MACS are weak. Even with the nerfs to bile bomb, it is still relatively easy for aliens to kill them without trying real heard. MACS also take time and attention of the commander, putting more pressure on him. I find it funny that while marine commander has that many things to do (look out for rushes, drop med kits, micro arc trains, nano shield, scans) that more work is pile on him compared to karm. Please do not use Asymmetrical argument here please. I echo the same sentiments of the other guy who posted here about asymmetry.
While welders are bought nearly all the time as it is, making it almost compulsory for the team to buy them puts most pub players off. They would rather save for stuff like exos and weapons. And that said, they are pubs, you can't really say that their way of fun is wrong. To each his own.
Also, players to have to take the time to weld delays players giving aliens more advantages. Guess thats why people are saying its 'not fun' and 'busywork'.
If you supporters of this mod can address my points and convince me otherwise, that be great. But for now I'm still against it.
I understand some concerns that there should be a means to full-heal in base. I am very for the advanced armory being capable of repairing armor. It would solve the previous issue and allow for a stronger presence (in time) in a chosen base. Maybe adjust the research times and costs.
It would provide an interesting base dynamic. You would have to decide if its worth the risk to phase back to main base for a full heal or stick near the basic armory. One welder given to two marines holding a base could be a game changer.
One last important aspect is regarding the use of welders. I agree it is tedious and sometimes confusing to drop welders so your teammate can heal you. Often they don't and will run off with the welder (makes me furious). Maybe some feature could be added. One possible solution is if the welder repairs armor for the target AND the user. You wouldn't have to drop it. But maybe make it so you can't self-weld without an ally (gimicky i know). Just a thought.
I'm just sayin'.
(Four hundred and three, now.)
Kiting has nothing to do with it.
Well here's some news for you, the learning curve of NS2 is still quite high for 'casual' players with or without the change. If welding each other is too much to ask of a casual player, then building stuff, listening to the commander, not ramboing and getting yourself killed, will also drive them away from the game. aka this is not the game for them.
sure, but they will learn eventually. just like when they first started and they saw a skulk running on the wall, shot wildly at them and missed every bullet, and died... they learned eventually how to aim. well, at least some of them.
so what? they have a follow-and-weld order now, and besides gorges the aliens don't have any AoE that can hurt them. yes the investment is heavy, but so are forward armories everywhere.
Many have pointed out that it is not compulsory to buy a welder. You go through maybe 2-3 a game, and if you find a group of marines usually someone will have one.
Lol, welding takes 3-5 seconds. Find another argument.
On to your points then.
1) If its that important for that marine to have to be killed, why aren't you or your teammates diving for him? Even with the marine having team mates (which is usually the case), a coordinated dive on said location should be done by your team. If he's good then like you said, go improve on your skills or in a more demeaning manner, 'L2P'. He won the engagement and if he has the opportunity to heal up, should be able to, unless he decides pressing on with his low HP.
2) please enlighten me why isn't it 'kiting'. Dancing around a object prevent hits from the opponent is considered kiting or juking. Same applies to a gorge dancing around a armory bile bombing the base. Kiting works like that from my understanding. Please tell me why you think otherwise
3) Ns2 learning curve is high, yes I agree. But adding more work for the marines to do adds even more to their burdens. I might as well address your last point here as well. I think you underestimate how 3 seconds can be quite critical. And I'm assuming its going to take slightly longer on pubs since getting a pub to weld you takes some communication/coordination that might drag. For example,within that time, aliens can flood into a room giving them a better staging area rather then be massacred down a corridor. Same applies to a marine running back to heal, Forcing a retreat or wastage of time (which is a resource) is critical to victory as well.
4) I might as well say removing regen from healing carapace would be fine as well? People can learn given time so why not? Putting asymmetry aside, What im trying to say is not everything in NS1 worked well when appealing to casual gamers, and not every change will be welcomed by the general audience, whether they are able to learn it over time or not.Just because most of the NS1 vets think its alright, doesn't mean it is.
5) gorge just cost 10 pres. It's such a easy counter for MACs at the moment. Having a Mac for each marine is your team of 6? And if that marine dies, the Mac would follow shortly. Furthermore, Pathing for macs are not perfected yet (same with drifters) with them getting occasionally stuck around the maps. And who welds the Mac?
6) Yea, and who welds the welder? Even with 2 marines having it, can you be certain that they will work as perfectly as you envision? No hiccups at all? The problem of people not welding or demanding to be welded will come about from this. Like I've said, the servers having this mod probably won't see any of it, but once it goes public, you'll probably see many more cases. NS1 didn't suffer too much due to the small and niche population,NS2 has a much bigger population with a audience.
I am not trying to start a argument here. I'm presenting issues that I as a current player feel would happen if it went live. Try understanding my points if resistance and perhaps we could have a proper discussion wheee. Brushing off the points made by the opposition is not a convincing way of selling your ideas
Because I'm one of the mean guys who drops armories everywhere in map and let the marine run around the armory for constant heal while being in combat. So lerk becomes useless with their gas and bite.
I won't go through every point you've made individually for the following reason:
They are all valid concerns to have in vacuo, and playing the test mod is the only way right now to find out whether they hold up. For me they didn't, but I cannot speak for you.
This leads me to your point about trying the mod. I absolutely agree that I am biased towards this change, and while I try to be as objective as possible, this problem still exists. It is precisely because of this that I have been suggesting that people opposed to the change try it out, because then we will at least have opinions about the mod from both sides of the argument. Furthermore, it will give a much better picture of the potential problems with this change in practice.
If the playtesting highlights no problems, you can't turn around and blame the playtesters later if problems arise in pubs if you have had the opportunity to test out the mod but refused to do so. What I'm saying is that your opinion about the mod, and Savant's, and strofix's, and whoever else it was arguing against this change, these are important opinions to have playtested. And guess who the best people are to test the mod for such problems?
My other pointers I brought up were to explain what people who were against this change would feel or view this change would cause. Some of the points brought forward to refute the counter arguments fall rather flat. And with people still insisting on them in a rather 'strong' tone is rather disappointing. I don't think a discussion could ever take place given the heated atmosphere here.
Even while playing the mod, I felt more could be done to further improve on it. I'll make more constructive feedback as I get more time into though. Perhaps even acting as an ass might be an opportune way of seeing how players react.
But perhaps the only way to really see how it goes is to probably release it to the public and watch the outcome. The public's reaction could swing either way.
But cheers for the civil reply. I really can't stand all the snarky comments throw about as of late.
Ps: I would like to actually suggest that UWE have a separate list of servers in different regions running this mod. Advertising it on the main menu could help, with some word of encouragement to boost participation. Since its a official test mod, it would help gather some honest feedback.
forced.
So not too sure about that
Armor recovery requiring welders rather than the armory weakens but does not invalidate this strategy; it gives it an achilles heel in that the armory is not the be-all, end-all means of recovery, thereby meaning that the marines, despite being able to recover health whilst assaulting the aliens from the armory, will not be at peak physical form for prolonged periods of time, and if they weld eachother, it gives the aliens breathing room within which to counter this strategy, or at least occupies some marines with the task of welding rather than attacking.
However, I think it's silly that by contrast there will be no "automated" means of health recovery, except perhaps MACs. Maybe the Advanced Armory could recover armor, albeit at a slower rate than it does now? (20 rather than 30 per tic)
Since that requires a higher investment of team res, you still wouldn't see marine comms building advanced armories willy nilly for assault/pressure unless you were in the endgame, but since there's usually one in base, it'd encourage marines to (at least temporarily) retreat if they want to bring themselves back up to peak condition without someone to weld them.
every one of your 'counterpoints' has a counterpoint. also, you're dancing around the initially accepted 'for the change' assertion that we believe it will make the game more fun.
'It is frustrating to have marines escape only to come back at full strength after only needing 1 bite to kill'
marines get bitten, comm gives them a medpack but they'll still want to run all the way back to armory to repair. this naturally leads to turtling which is boring both for aliens and marines, and we're only scratching the surface. marines also use this turtle strength to create an easy stranglehold in key areas of the map which force aliens to overcompensate. it's NOT fun.
'It is frustrating to engage marines around the armory'
again, it's frustrating because it's not fun. turtling is boring for both players and spectators. imo the game should be more focused on teamwork, coordination and aggression. the game should embrace clever strategies and improvisation. i'm not saying the balance test changes will fix everything, but things need to be tried.
'NS1 had it and it was fine'
i didn't play NS1 or beta NS2. regardless, i don't accept that it would be more difficult for casuals. it's the emphasis on teamwork which sets NS2 apart from other games, if they wanted boring turtle games they might as well continue playing instaspawn dustbowl in team fortress 2.
'Give it a shot then comment'
granted if the balance test mod was to go live, it would cause a ruckus. there are a lot of radical changes and while a lot of people will be excited; there will always be a lot of people left in dismay. however, if you don't try the mod then you can be justifiably catalogued with the 'inevitable dismay' group.
'MACs can do the job'
mac's are not an expensive or slow tech. it takes 20 tres and 22 seconds to have a mac on the field. in the current balance mod build, aliens have to spend triple tres to get full carapace and even more tres to enable the late game abilities such as stomp.
by the way, noone's being forced to buy a welder. in the live build i buy a welder whenever i have spare pres (after plans to save for jetpack or shotgun etc), that exact same logic works in the balance test mod. someone always has a welder, and if they don't then your commander can drop an armory and a tres welder or he can drop a robotics and MAC.
Creating stranglehold are what aliens excel at. Throw clogs, hydras and 2 gorges, an alien team can hold marines for a long period of time, possibly shutting them out for good at the early game (the old smelting hydra/clog block rush comes to mind). So it's not frustrating for marines in that case? So unfortunately, I think stranglehold is a rather weak argument to bring in as it works both ways.
Fortunately for me, rarely do marines in my server fall back fast. They tend to stay out field for extended periods of time (at the cost of
medpacks)
To your points of turtling, ever since gorgeous I have not fought a turtle from marines. Concede helps reduce the off chance even more. Even if there was one i missed out, its easy for the onos train to reduce it quickly with gorge/lerk support. Teamwork and aggression like you said. Boring turtle games are few and far between, and easily countered.
I have given it a shot. And will Be for the next few days. Do read my posts after.
Carapace is a permanent upgrade. It's more similar to armor upgrades actually. So can't compare them to
MACs.
MACs are weak, and needs replacing very often, even in this Mod. I would actually like a more solid solution rather then macs that is. I don't think macs can cover it sufficiently. By heavy investment, what im saying is that it does not grant you any tech that helps out in the late game. Rather it takes tres away from teching to JPs and Exos and the costs to constantly provide marines with a Mac buddy might build up. So I think another solution could be done.
Yes, you're right. No one is forced to buy a welder. But it feels like it is see. While playing this mod I don't, cause my team tends to do that, leaving me to spend my res elsewhere. But if it is applied to pubs? Like I've told Roo, you'll not know how the public reacts to this. Perhaps a more open trial for this mod would give the designer the honest feedback he needs rather then get it from slightly biased sources such as us?
Like I said, I'm bringing up points of resistance that potential players would have. If you could directly answer them and explain/refute them, you'll win more supporters right? No need to get aggressive and point fingers saying I'm 'one of them'. I'm Approaching this to be a discussion and not a argument. Perhaps this mod should take into account these questions that potential opposition might ask and address them?
I did like to hear some solid suggestions to address these issues. And why not? Like you said new stuff is always welcomed (usually) and I too would like more variety in my games as well. Cheers!
imagine that, no wars or conflict of any kind.
that's essentially what you're asking for :P
i've just got one thing to say before i'm done; aliens can stranglehold but marines have the ARC to destroy that which serves as an effective turtle deterrent. aliens don't have a turtle deterrent of their own, except onos, which doesn't usually arrive until ~20 minutes into a game. thereby allowing marines 20 or so minutes of omni-crutch armory turtles.
1. It lessens the marine connection with the base, while strengthening the connection with the Comm and with teammates. It turns the teammates into your support, as the armory provides nothing that the Comm can't drop.
2. It enables alien hit and run. If the means of healing is mobile, that means marines will act more mobile. More marines out in the field, less at base, defending between phases. Fades, the quintessential hit and run alien, would gain a more concrete role, as marines in the field is where they excel. It would also allow hit and run against forward marine bases, instead of all or nothing victories.
3. It gives a more concrete reason to get MACs. As it stands they aren't utilized very much, and half of their purpose is taken by the armory. You would only need to get one, as it would just stay in base and repair.
4. It removes the false choice of armory, weld, or MAC. Choices are fine, but not when one option is far and away better than the others. An armory's only weakness is the fact that it is stationary, which in turn encourages more sedentary methods of play. MACs require investing in an expensive tech tree, and welder's require both Pres and teamwork. With the armory removed, that leaves either investing in the fragile, expensive, but autonomous MACs, or increasing coordination in getting everyone welded up.
In ns2 you don't get resources when you die, so they would lose out on potential resources if they were to do that.
the restrictive/negative effect on the game is so small that it's unnoticible amongst the many other huge changes... the only relevant effect you notice during a game is the gratitude towards the guy who stops to weld you.
Please don't forget that maps were bigger in NS1 and the game's pace was *typically* slower. NS2 is more fast-paced and the maps are smaller. Every second counts in NS2 and taking your welder out leaves you incredibly vulnerable "out in the field."
Personally, I think armories should only give health, but I'm just pointing out the fact that you cannot draw a direct and perfect comparison between NS1 and NS2 gameplay.
Cheers,
Cody