Nobody is going to kill themselves if they get welded. Obviously.
The issue is that you probably (maybe/occasionally) won't get welded.
So, I pose the question. If you have no armour, and nobody will weld you, what do you do? What are your options?
I do what I do now when that situation arises, I keep pushing with my teammates, or without them if I'm the only one left. Or I double back and pressure elsewhere as a distraction. Or I join up with another squad elsewhere to help support that push or defense.
And I beg the comm to research welders so we can be more effective in the field.
It literally changes NOTHING in the way I play.
I do that now, and more people should learn and use the benefits that welders bring to the marine game right now in all builds up to b244, as I type this.
I'd like you to keep in mind that if I suicide attack an RT and fail to kill the RT, it is likely going to be more defended if I try again. There is also a chance that they will heal it to full and I will have wasted my initial attempt entirely.
There are plenty of times right now when it is a good idea to /kill. For example, if you are on the wrong side of the map to join in an important push or defense, too far away from the nearest phasegate. or just finished your suicide mission's goal and need to be somewhere else. There are also many times a push would be stronger if you went back for health and then reinforced it rather than running up with the push to die in one hit (if your armor is gone you are not full health). The run back after you die will put you there too late to do any good and you probably lead your team into overconfidence expecting you to be able to pull your weight in the push. Also in the new rule, If you have a weapon (or even a welder), it would be much better to die in a reachable spot then to wait for the enemy to kill you in enemy territory.
I play on pubs. I can never get my Com to drop ammo when I need it (I always get meds when I ammospam, dumbass coms). I constantly remind people to weld their fellow marines, I think I've maybe had people weld me 3 or 4 times in my over 300 hours playing. I also like to do the solo missions, I can't rely on my team in a pub anyway so I might as well pick targets I can take out myself (suicide RT runs are a big one), so even if the likelyhood of players repairing armor increased I would be unable to receive the benefit a lot of the time.
Killing yourself only to lose your armour again next time you're in a fight is both ridiculous and pointless. I would be pretty annoyed with my marines if they kept doing this while I was comming.
I better keep an eye out for your name when I'm playing if this makes it in.
Seriously though, it's not ridiculous at all. First you have the res sink cost of constantly buying welders. Sorry - and I know I'm not alone - but I won't be pissing away my personal res on welders. I'm not in a league or playing in s scrim. Like the rest of the public I want have some fun. While a group of committed testers that likes the change might buy them, if you toss this change on the pubs you will be in for a rude awakening. Encouraging teamwork is hard at the best of time, and so you not only want to raise the learning curve more, you want to take p-res out of marine pockets.
You want to talk 'fun'? As a marine I don't find welding fun. At all. IMHO it's a 'time waster' mechanic akin to making busy-work. While a case can be made for it to be in the game, I wouldn't want to expand the role of welding if you force people to BUY welders.
That's what this is all about, the cost. If welders became stock on all marines, then cost is not an issue. If this has to happen then make it so that you don't need welders at all, just use the 'build tool'. So if a building needs to be built and you click on it, you build it. If a building or marine needs to be repaired and you click on it, it gets repaired. The game could prompt too. Something simple, intuitive, easy to learn, and able to be balanced via weld times.
Buying welders though? I'd rather suicide and save 5 res for the 7 seconds it will take for me to spawn. Otherwise I'm a walking liability who can be killed in two bites which might cost me an engagement. Furthermore, it will cost the commander more in medpacks if he wants to heal those with no armor.
I'm beginning to think the whole 'killing yourself' thing is only an issue on non-EU servers. As I said, I haven't seen it happen once in thousands of hours of NS.
Apparently in Europe, we really like our honour and fairplay!
Since when is killing yourself not fair play? It's usually something that from a design standpoint should be avoided, but it's totally legitimate play, the kind of thing I would expect to see in competitive if the situation called for it.
It's a very uncommon thing though. Most more casual players are more concerned with their K/D than with winning, so they would never even consider it. Add to that a limited number of players who know how to do it (especially to bind it) or who would even consider the strategy, and the fact that it's rarely talked about so the strategy isn't really a majorly public thing... it's uncommon to say the least. In fact, I've never actually noticed anyone else do it, but that doesn't mean they haven't. I did see one person who F4d to save his K/D but that's a different story.
You won't ever see it in comp play though because he only groups of people who would ever even consider killing themselves are either incredibly bad players or people who have no clue how NS works. Sadly, this apparently includes some people who've played it for years.
You won't ever see it in comp play though because he only groups of people who would ever even consider killing themselves are either incredibly bad players or people who have no clue how NS works. Sadly, this apparently includes some people who've played it for years.
Just because you don't share the same playstyle, doesn't give you the right to denigrate people who don't play the same way you do.
It comes down to the choice. Does the player walk out of base with enough health to be killed in 2 bites or 4? If a player can double the amount of time it takes for the enemy to kill him by waiting only *7* seconds now, then that is a viable choice in my opinion.
Deaths in NS cost the marines NOTHING. There are no spawn counters, there is no resource cost tied to spawning. It's totally free. So why not use it if you want to force people to run around in the game with sub-optimal health/armor levels? All it takes is a quick look at the scoreboard, see that no one else is dead, type /kill and you're good to go.
You can't force people to run around with no armor, despite your efforts to do so.
Comp players kill themselves all the time. Its a free teliport, much quicker than running back to base. If your base is rushed, you get one person to ~kill and help defend.
Just because you don't share the same playstyle, doesn't give you the right to denigrate people who don't play the same way you do.
You can play however you like, of course, but I will absolutely call it a bad choice, in the same way I call getting W1 first or upgrades before phase tech (on pubs) a bad choice, all of which is subjective and can be argued. I got sick of this thread about 10 pages ago though and there's really no point arguing further, as I don't even feel that passionately about the armoury change anymore. Change it or leave it, I don't care. I do however still think people killing themselves wouldn't be an issue. Also, if suiciding is a perfectly viable choice with absolutely no disadvantage, why did you bring it up as counter argument to the armoury change anyway?
Comp players kill themselves all the time. Its a free teliport, much quicker than running back to base. If your base is rushed, you get one person to ~kill and help defend.
In what alternate universe do you live in then? I have never seen this _ever_ and I watched and played dozens of matches. Is this another thing that's only common outside Europe? You guys seem to be pretty weird.
You won't ever see it in comp play though because he only groups of people who would ever even consider killing themselves are either incredibly bad players or people who have no clue how NS works. Sadly, this apparently includes some people who've played it for years.
Just because you don't share the same playstyle, doesn't give you the right to denigrate people who don't play the same way you do.
It comes down to the choice. Does the player walk out of base with enough health to be killed in 2 bites or 4? If a player can double the amount of time it takes for the enemy to kill him by waiting only *7* seconds now, then that is a viable choice in my opinion.
Deaths in NS cost the marines NOTHING. There are no spawn counters, there is no resource cost tied to spawning. It's totally free. So why not use it if you want to force people to run around in the game with sub-optimal health/armor levels? All it takes is a quick look at the scoreboard, see that no one else is dead, type /kill and you're good to go.
You can't force people to run around with no armor, despite your efforts to do so.
Death in NS is not free at all, it's even more bad in NS than in NS2. You "give" resources to the enemy team when you die in NS, therefore giving them the advantage to upgrade more rapidly.
And even with that, people never suicide to regain armor or remove a parasite, because the outcome is worse than living with or without those.
And it's not that he does not share the same play style, it's just that this play style is blatantly stupid and brings nothing to you nor your team.
I can't even understand how this can be conceivable from people knowing a minimum the game, to be even worth considered. Running in an alien hive with only your knife is a different play style, it won't stop me from saying that this tactic is just stupid and will never help you in the game. It's not a denigration, it's just a plain fact.
Have you played with no armor regen at least? And experienced your great tactic with at least 6+ players?
To theorize is great, but if you don't look at all the aspect of everything it implies, it is just being visionary.
Comp players kill themselves all the time. Its a free teliport, much quicker than running back to base. If your base is rushed, you get one person to ~kill and help defend.
Valid tactic but not so important. Have to be bad situation if needed.
Savant your problem is way more tinier than current armory humping/loving, sorry its going to change somehow. If you cant rambo don't do it and kill yourself (wont be a problem for many people). Again you cry about 5 res welder cost (who said it will always cost 5 res?), why not just remove whole weapon/welders buying and commander drop them like in ns1 style . Game isn't fully ready like many thinks so
Why there isn't easy mode for those who want nano armor/ammo/healt etc "rookie" :P But its the charlie's game and he have the final word for this
And it's not that he does not share the same play style, it's just that this play style is blatantly stupid and brings nothing to you nor your team.
If you don't like that playstyle that's fine, denigrating people who play differently than you is rude and uncalled for. No one here should be dictating to anyone how to play the game. The devs have repeatedly said that if there is only one given playstyle choice for any situation then the game is BROKEN. It should always be viable to play differently than other people, otherwise you end up with a totally scripted encounter.
I've been in NS since before it was NS. People have been suiciding since the beginning since the death was needed to counter something. In NS1 the common /kill was over parasite, but it was also to get back to base in a hurry. In NS2 it may be a quick and cheap way to get back full armor in 7 seconds. Considering it will take 3 seconds to repair 90 armor, plus a second to equip and then a few seconds to move over to the person being welded, the time differential is NIL. I hit one key and in 7 seconds I am at full health armor and ammo.
If you want to take armor off the armory, then get used to this since I'm not going to gimp my combat effectiveness because someone else things running around with a welder out is a fun way to play. I'm not going to be the only one either.
It's time you learn you can't force people to play the game the way YOU want them to play.
Savant your problem is way more tinier than current armory humping/loving ... why not just remove whole weapon/welders
I said before, my issue is cost. If they want to make welding an integral part of this game, then spawn the marine with a welder and be done with it. If you want to spend your p-res on welders, go right ahead. I'm going to spend it on something a little less boring.
It's just a complete nonsense argument, Savant. Sorry, but it just is. We've been over and over the same ground throughout this thread so many times, I think we'll just have to agree to disagree. Despite the best efforts of you and others, I remain unconvinced by every single argument against the armoury change, with the exception that there will be a lot of people who don't like the change at first. In every other regard, I firmly believe it would be great for the game.
There will still be those who don't weld because they only want to play for themselves and don't understand that ns2 is a team game that requires cooperation on levels, but here's the rub: those are the same people who don't weld now, who don't bother to shoot the skulk off their teammates' feet, who don't weld exos or jetpack marines, who follow you around with the sole aim of taking your gun when you die and who won't return it, who never phase because they might get bitten as they go through... I could go on, but we all know the type.
They exist now and they ruin games now, though thankfully for ns2 they are the minority. The majority of players understand far better how the game works and what is required for their team to prosper, and as a knock on effect how they will prosper in the long run as a result.
This change may not be particularly popular in the short run, but I honestly believe it to be good for the longevity of the game.
Comp players kill themselves all the time. Its a free teliport, much quicker than running back to base. If your base is rushed, you get one person to ~kill and help defend.
In what alternate universe do you live in then? I have never seen this _ever_ and I watched and played dozens of matches. Is this another thing that's only common outside Europe? You guys seem to be pretty weird.
Seen Nexzil do it a dozen times in their skrims. I assume they do it because they put a three man team forward and that lets skulks get around them easier. They can just ~kill and have one of them in position at base to defend if that is the case. I am not a pro though so maybe their reasoning is different.
If it literally changes nothing, and you proceed to simply walk into battle substantially weaker than you would otherwise be, then I see this entire thread as nothing more than a balance issue.
If marines are currently too strong, then it should be considered as a possible avenue for balance correction.
If balance is currently adequate, then for the love of god don't put this through.
There will still be those who don't weld because they only want to play for themselves and don't understand that ns2 is a team game that requires cooperation on levels, but here's the rub: those are the same people who don't weld now, who don't bother to shoot the skulk off their teammates' feet, who don't weld exos or jetpack marines, who follow you around with the sole aim of taking your gun when you die and who won't return it, who never phase because they might get bitten as they go through... I could go on, but we all know the type.
They exist now and they ruin games now, though thankfully for ns2 they are the minority. The majority of players understand far better how the game works and what is required for their team to prosper, and as a knock on effect how they will prosper in the long run as a result.
Right so if your team is good you might have welding and if it is bad then what? Rage and leave out of frustration? Those people you mention won't help out even if you tell them and like you said will gladly take your welds only to wait until you die to take both your weapon and welder.
Anecdotal evidence using games you played and saying those bad players are in the minority does not work. In my experience I have seen more bad than good and it does not take many to ruin my game but again this is anecdotal evidence.
So leaving personal experience out, if you are going to be dependent on others for welding you are left with two options. Either get lucky and have a team that actually wants to work together and play with them or get a bad team who does not weld because they want to horde their pres or take your weapons when you die and you end up not having a good time. Right now even if you have a bad team players, you can still remain in the game because of the armory. If pubs were so excellent there would not be such a negative perception of them throughout every game when compared to gathers or whatever. You always need to account for these players and if you do not it will only end up causing more frustration.
Comp players kill themselves all the time. Its a free teliport, much quicker than running back to base. If your base is rushed, you get one person to ~kill and help defend.
In what alternate universe do you live in then? I have never seen this _ever_ and I watched and played dozens of matches. Is this another thing that's only common outside Europe? You guys seem to be pretty weird.
Seen Nexzil do it a dozen times in their skrims. I assume they do it because they put a three man team forward and that lets skulks get around them easier. They can just ~kill and have one of them in position at base to defend if that is the case. I am not a pro though so maybe their reasoning is different.
Nexzil also go W1 first, so that's already two things that could improve their game if they did it differently.
And it's not that he does not share the same play style, it's just that this play style is blatantly stupid and brings nothing to you nor your team.
If you don't like that playstyle that's fine, denigrating people who play differently than you is rude and uncalled for. No one here should be dictating to anyone how to play the game. The devs have repeatedly said that if there is only one given playstyle choice for any situation then the game is BROKEN. It should always be viable to play differently than other people, otherwise you end up with a totally scripted encounter.
I've been in NS since before it was NS. People have been suiciding since the beginning since the death was needed to counter something. In NS1 the common /kill was over parasite, but it was also to get back to base in a hurry. In NS2 it may be a quick and cheap way to get back full armor in 7 seconds. Considering it will take 3 seconds to repair 90 armor, plus a second to equip and then a few seconds to move over to the person being welded, the time differential is NIL. I hit one key and in 7 seconds I am at full health armor and ammo.
If you want to take armor off the armory, then get used to this since I'm not going to gimp my combat effectiveness because someone else things running around with a welder out is a fun way to play. I'm not going to be the only one either.
I pointed this out several pages ago but it doesn't seem to have sunk in. The ONLY reasons kill in console are two fold, an alien rush on spawn (and there are no marines in spawn queue and there isn't enough incoming to warrant a beacon) and RFK. The first is still a possible reason, but unlikely, the second DOES NOT EXIST IN NS2.
The reiterate my reductio ad absurdum from the previous page "I need to kill myself so I don't die." Your argument is patently ridiculous and you would be better off sticking to your points about tedium because THOSE are worth talking about. If I saw any marine doing this kind of thing in a game I am comming, they would instantly not be worth my medpacks and assistance because they are more concerned about themselves than the team.
The reiterate my reductio ad absurdum from the previous page "I need to kill myself so I don't die."
You can keep repeating the same flawed argument over and over, but that doesn't make it valid. It's not, "I need to kill myself so I don't die" it's, "I need to kill myself so I don't die in 2 bites instead of 4." Death costs NOTHING in this game. NOTHING. Marines don't have eggs to limit their spawn count. Respawns don't cost resources. All they cost are a brief wait. That's it.
You double your effective health by dying. It may not be the way you *like* to play, but it can and will happen if you take away a person's ability to get a free heal from the armory. You can't bully people into playing the game the way *you* think it should be played.
If I have a choice between walking out of spawn with double my effective health, in exchange for a 7 second penalty, I'll take the 7 seconds. It's FREE. Despite you wanting to suck p-res out of marine pockets, you can't stand that some people won't want to pay it. Well time to get used to it. If this change goes through people WILL be killing themselves, and all of the insults in the world won't stop them.
Death costs map control actually. I'm pretty sure killing yourself a room a way from the enemy hive to gain just armor is all cons, no pros (unless there is a pg nearby).
Death costs map control actually. I'm pretty sure killing yourself a room a way from the enemy hive to gain just armor is all cons, no pros (unless there is a pg nearby).
You're reducing it to a point of stupidity.
Its like criticising the tactic of not shooting the hive while you put up a ninja phase gate with "but if you never shoot the hive, you can't kill it".
You don't kill yourself when you are right outside a room full of people who are more than willing to kill you, and also a room full of stuff that you can deal damage to. If a gorge runs into your base and drops some bile bombs, and you get taken down to zero armour, and you think there might be an Onos and some fades hitting spawn in 15 seconds, why not kill yourself, rather than sit around and wait.
OR save yourself 7 seconds and have someone weld you, I dunno, seems kinda hard actually.
Reduction again.
You don't kill yourself to accomplish something that the dude standing 2 feet away from you with a welder can do. You kill yourself when there is no dude with a welder.
I'm not suggesting that it is viable in 100% of cases, but some are saying it's not viable at all. Let's look at a 'for instance'... example:
For instance:
-You were responding to an attack on one of your extractors outside marine start. You engage that skulk and win the encounter, surviving with less than 50 health. (the skulk got 3 of 4 bites in) Now it's going to take you about 5-7 seconds to run back to base to reload/rearm and get health from the armory. In normal cases you would run back, since the front lines are further out and you have phase gates in base. However, looking at the scoreboard you see no one in the spawn queue. So by pressing kill at that moment you will save the trip back to base, you have NO downtime standing beside the armory to rearm and get health, and you can immediately head through a phase gate to return to the front lines.
-The alternative is running back to base and rearming and getting health from the armory. Now you are full ammo and health, no armor. Do you buy a welder and run off looking for someone to weld you? Do you start asking on your mic who has a welder? Or do you just forget it and run off without armor? No matter what you do, you are now a liability. You will die faster and you also will attract attention away from your surroundings because another player (if he has one) needs to put away his weapon to weld you. So he's defenceless and you're killable in two bites.
Now obviously it won't be wise to kill yourself if there are people waiting to spawn or if you are in a position that you need to hold at all costs. There are plenty of times when you go out from base and you never make it back again, nor do you anticipate making it back. In those cases you're not going to bother killing yourself since you were going to die anyway. However, if you are within range of base, and your death won't impact the area you are in, then /kill is viable. You'll be first in the spawn queue and full repaired/rearmed the instant you step off the platform. All for the low low cost of 7 seconds.
What some people don't consider is that you can't impose a set of ideals on other people's gameplay. Those who denigrate it think they can discourage it by doing so, but they can't. People will play how they want to play.
If it will cost p-res to return to full health, people will ALWAYS consider the 'free' option before they pay.
That's why people don't use welders now.
Ask yourself this... At present, a person who is low on armor can get a weld from a teammate. Yet how many buy welders and do that now? Why so few? Because it costs p-res. People will always consider the 'free' option first. It will be no different if this is implemented. People will consider the 'free' option which is /kill. Since they are not in some league game, they really aren't playing in a game where you need to play perfectly to win. So in their case there is no real downside. They want to have fun, and spending p-res on a welder compared to a shotgun is not fun. So yeah, you can guess what choice many people will be making.
OR save yourself 7 seconds and have someone weld you, I dunno, seems kinda hard actually.
Reduction again.
You don't kill yourself to accomplish something that the dude standing 2 feet away from you with a welder can do. You kill yourself when there is no dude with a welder.
There should always be a dude standing 2 feet away from you with a welder. Also if you DO kill yourself from a forward position on the map, there's a good chance you'll lose the armor (part of it anyway) before you get back anyway.
EDIT: I agree that it might be the right choice in some cases, I'm just saying that as a general rule, it's fucking stupid.
What some people don't consider is that you can't impose a set of ideals on other people's gameplay. Those who denigrate it think they can discourage it by doing so, but they can't. People will play how they want to play.
What you don't understand is that we don't denigrate it, it's just that when people will try it and notice after some time that the outcome is not worth it in comparison of staying alive, and that it puts you and your team at a disadvantage instead of an advantage, they will simply stop it and think of something else. Same thing in NS and any other games.
And I see a lot of welders ingame, it's the thing we see the most after shotguns. It's also the thing I buy the most everytime, it's so cheap and so useful that you can't refuse to buy it.
It's not, "I need to kill myself so I don't die" it's, "I need to kill myself so I don't die in 2 bites instead of 4." Death costs NOTHING in this game. NOTHING. Marines don't have eggs to limit their spawn count. Respawns don't cost resources. All they cost are a brief wait. That's it.
That rephrase is just as absurd to me. When I am all alone and I am out of armor, my options are:
1) Kill myself.
2) Hold my position for as long as I can in an effort to maintain map control.
3) Advance forward to try and do damage before my inevitable death.
4) Fall back to meet up with my team for a stronger push.
All of those options cost no resources. A few of them have potential to cost the other team resources. One of those options is seriously stupid. Can you tell which one?
edit: You could make the argument that you are doing option 1 in order to do option 4, but 7 seconds in this game can mean the difference between losing an extractor and not. Add that to the fact that your team now has to hang around waiting for you for those 7 seconds, or you have to push out alone anyway to catch up to them. Staying out on the map and having a presence is extremely important. Positioning is everything.
Comp players kill themselves all the time. Its a free teliport, much quicker than running back to base. If your base is rushed, you get one person to ~kill and help defend.
In what alternate universe do you live in then? I have never seen this _ever_ and I watched and played dozens of matches. Is this another thing that's only common outside Europe? You guys seem to be pretty weird.
Seen Nexzil do it a dozen times in their skrims. I assume they do it because they put a three man team forward and that lets skulks get around them easier. They can just ~kill and have one of them in position at base to defend if that is the case. I am not a pro though so maybe their reasoning is different.
Nexzil also go W1 first, so that's already two things that could improve their game if they did it differently.
Sorry to derail.
Nexzil doesn't go w1 first. I don't see how you can argue against a suicide in this context. It's about being out of position.
But in regards to welding in competitive it won't change that much. It will create busy work. Maybe help lower level teams with combat positioning, don't lose LOS, come back for welds.
Comments
I do what I do now when that situation arises, I keep pushing with my teammates, or without them if I'm the only one left. Or I double back and pressure elsewhere as a distraction. Or I join up with another squad elsewhere to help support that push or defense.
And I beg the comm to research welders so we can be more effective in the field.
It literally changes NOTHING in the way I play.
I do that now, and more people should learn and use the benefits that welders bring to the marine game right now in all builds up to b244, as I type this.
There are plenty of times right now when it is a good idea to /kill. For example, if you are on the wrong side of the map to join in an important push or defense, too far away from the nearest phasegate. or just finished your suicide mission's goal and need to be somewhere else. There are also many times a push would be stronger if you went back for health and then reinforced it rather than running up with the push to die in one hit (if your armor is gone you are not full health). The run back after you die will put you there too late to do any good and you probably lead your team into overconfidence expecting you to be able to pull your weight in the push. Also in the new rule, If you have a weapon (or even a welder), it would be much better to die in a reachable spot then to wait for the enemy to kill you in enemy territory.
I play on pubs. I can never get my Com to drop ammo when I need it (I always get meds when I ammospam, dumbass coms). I constantly remind people to weld their fellow marines, I think I've maybe had people weld me 3 or 4 times in my over 300 hours playing. I also like to do the solo missions, I can't rely on my team in a pub anyway so I might as well pick targets I can take out myself (suicide RT runs are a big one), so even if the likelyhood of players repairing armor increased I would be unable to receive the benefit a lot of the time.
Seriously though, it's not ridiculous at all. First you have the res sink cost of constantly buying welders. Sorry - and I know I'm not alone - but I won't be pissing away my personal res on welders. I'm not in a league or playing in s scrim. Like the rest of the public I want have some fun. While a group of committed testers that likes the change might buy them, if you toss this change on the pubs you will be in for a rude awakening. Encouraging teamwork is hard at the best of time, and so you not only want to raise the learning curve more, you want to take p-res out of marine pockets.
You want to talk 'fun'? As a marine I don't find welding fun. At all. IMHO it's a 'time waster' mechanic akin to making busy-work. While a case can be made for it to be in the game, I wouldn't want to expand the role of welding if you force people to BUY welders.
That's what this is all about, the cost. If welders became stock on all marines, then cost is not an issue. If this has to happen then make it so that you don't need welders at all, just use the 'build tool'. So if a building needs to be built and you click on it, you build it. If a building or marine needs to be repaired and you click on it, it gets repaired. The game could prompt too. Something simple, intuitive, easy to learn, and able to be balanced via weld times.
Buying welders though? I'd rather suicide and save 5 res for the 7 seconds it will take for me to spawn. Otherwise I'm a walking liability who can be killed in two bites which might cost me an engagement. Furthermore, it will cost the commander more in medpacks if he wants to heal those with no armor.
So yeah, it will be NS1 all over again.
Apparently in Europe, we really like our honour and fairplay!
It's a very uncommon thing though. Most more casual players are more concerned with their K/D than with winning, so they would never even consider it. Add to that a limited number of players who know how to do it (especially to bind it) or who would even consider the strategy, and the fact that it's rarely talked about so the strategy isn't really a majorly public thing... it's uncommon to say the least. In fact, I've never actually noticed anyone else do it, but that doesn't mean they haven't. I did see one person who F4d to save his K/D but that's a different story.
It comes down to the choice. Does the player walk out of base with enough health to be killed in 2 bites or 4? If a player can double the amount of time it takes for the enemy to kill him by waiting only *7* seconds now, then that is a viable choice in my opinion.
Deaths in NS cost the marines NOTHING. There are no spawn counters, there is no resource cost tied to spawning. It's totally free. So why not use it if you want to force people to run around in the game with sub-optimal health/armor levels? All it takes is a quick look at the scoreboard, see that no one else is dead, type /kill and you're good to go.
You can't force people to run around with no armor, despite your efforts to do so.
In what alternate universe do you live in then? I have never seen this _ever_ and I watched and played dozens of matches. Is this another thing that's only common outside Europe? You guys seem to be pretty weird.
And even with that, people never suicide to regain armor or remove a parasite, because the outcome is worse than living with or without those.
And it's not that he does not share the same play style, it's just that this play style is blatantly stupid and brings nothing to you nor your team.
I can't even understand how this can be conceivable from people knowing a minimum the game, to be even worth considered. Running in an alien hive with only your knife is a different play style, it won't stop me from saying that this tactic is just stupid and will never help you in the game. It's not a denigration, it's just a plain fact.
Have you played with no armor regen at least? And experienced your great tactic with at least 6+ players?
To theorize is great, but if you don't look at all the aspect of everything it implies, it is just being visionary.
Valid tactic but not so important. Have to be bad situation if needed.
Savant your problem is way more tinier than current armory humping/loving, sorry its going to change somehow. If you cant rambo don't do it and kill yourself (wont be a problem for many people). Again you cry about 5 res welder cost (who said it will always cost 5 res?), why not just remove whole weapon/welders buying and commander drop them like in ns1 style
Why there isn't easy mode for those who want nano armor/ammo/healt etc "rookie" :P But its the charlie's game and he have the final word for this
I've been in NS since before it was NS. People have been suiciding since the beginning since the death was needed to counter something. In NS1 the common /kill was over parasite, but it was also to get back to base in a hurry. In NS2 it may be a quick and cheap way to get back full armor in 7 seconds. Considering it will take 3 seconds to repair 90 armor, plus a second to equip and then a few seconds to move over to the person being welded, the time differential is NIL. I hit one key and in 7 seconds I am at full health armor and ammo.
If you want to take armor off the armory, then get used to this since I'm not going to gimp my combat effectiveness because someone else things running around with a welder out is a fun way to play. I'm not going to be the only one either.
It's time you learn you can't force people to play the game the way YOU want them to play.
I said before, my issue is cost. If they want to make welding an integral part of this game, then spawn the marine with a welder and be done with it. If you want to spend your p-res on welders, go right ahead. I'm going to spend it on something a little less boring.
There will still be those who don't weld because they only want to play for themselves and don't understand that ns2 is a team game that requires cooperation on levels, but here's the rub: those are the same people who don't weld now, who don't bother to shoot the skulk off their teammates' feet, who don't weld exos or jetpack marines, who follow you around with the sole aim of taking your gun when you die and who won't return it, who never phase because they might get bitten as they go through... I could go on, but we all know the type.
They exist now and they ruin games now, though thankfully for ns2 they are the minority. The majority of players understand far better how the game works and what is required for their team to prosper, and as a knock on effect how they will prosper in the long run as a result.
This change may not be particularly popular in the short run, but I honestly believe it to be good for the longevity of the game.
If it literally changes nothing, and you proceed to simply walk into battle substantially weaker than you would otherwise be, then I see this entire thread as nothing more than a balance issue.
If marines are currently too strong, then it should be considered as a possible avenue for balance correction.
If balance is currently adequate, then for the love of god don't put this through.
Right so if your team is good you might have welding and if it is bad then what? Rage and leave out of frustration? Those people you mention won't help out even if you tell them and like you said will gladly take your welds only to wait until you die to take both your weapon and welder.
Anecdotal evidence using games you played and saying those bad players are in the minority does not work. In my experience I have seen more bad than good and it does not take many to ruin my game but again this is anecdotal evidence.
So leaving personal experience out, if you are going to be dependent on others for welding you are left with two options. Either get lucky and have a team that actually wants to work together and play with them or get a bad team who does not weld because they want to horde their pres or take your weapons when you die and you end up not having a good time. Right now even if you have a bad team players, you can still remain in the game because of the armory. If pubs were so excellent there would not be such a negative perception of them throughout every game when compared to gathers or whatever. You always need to account for these players and if you do not it will only end up causing more frustration.
I pointed this out several pages ago but it doesn't seem to have sunk in. The ONLY reasons kill in console are two fold, an alien rush on spawn (and there are no marines in spawn queue and there isn't enough incoming to warrant a beacon) and RFK. The first is still a possible reason, but unlikely, the second DOES NOT EXIST IN NS2.
The reiterate my reductio ad absurdum from the previous page "I need to kill myself so I don't die." Your argument is patently ridiculous and you would be better off sticking to your points about tedium because THOSE are worth talking about. If I saw any marine doing this kind of thing in a game I am comming, they would instantly not be worth my medpacks and assistance because they are more concerned about themselves than the team.
You double your effective health by dying. It may not be the way you *like* to play, but it can and will happen if you take away a person's ability to get a free heal from the armory. You can't bully people into playing the game the way *you* think it should be played.
If I have a choice between walking out of spawn with double my effective health, in exchange for a 7 second penalty, I'll take the 7 seconds. It's FREE. Despite you wanting to suck p-res out of marine pockets, you can't stand that some people won't want to pay it. Well time to get used to it. If this change goes through people WILL be killing themselves, and all of the insults in the world won't stop them.
You're reducing it to a point of stupidity.
Its like criticising the tactic of not shooting the hive while you put up a ninja phase gate with "but if you never shoot the hive, you can't kill it".
You don't kill yourself when you are right outside a room full of people who are more than willing to kill you, and also a room full of stuff that you can deal damage to. If a gorge runs into your base and drops some bile bombs, and you get taken down to zero armour, and you think there might be an Onos and some fades hitting spawn in 15 seconds, why not kill yourself, rather than sit around and wait.
Reduction again.
You don't kill yourself to accomplish something that the dude standing 2 feet away from you with a welder can do. You kill yourself when there is no dude with a welder.
For instance:
-You were responding to an attack on one of your extractors outside marine start. You engage that skulk and win the encounter, surviving with less than 50 health. (the skulk got 3 of 4 bites in) Now it's going to take you about 5-7 seconds to run back to base to reload/rearm and get health from the armory. In normal cases you would run back, since the front lines are further out and you have phase gates in base. However, looking at the scoreboard you see no one in the spawn queue. So by pressing kill at that moment you will save the trip back to base, you have NO downtime standing beside the armory to rearm and get health, and you can immediately head through a phase gate to return to the front lines.
-The alternative is running back to base and rearming and getting health from the armory. Now you are full ammo and health, no armor. Do you buy a welder and run off looking for someone to weld you? Do you start asking on your mic who has a welder? Or do you just forget it and run off without armor? No matter what you do, you are now a liability. You will die faster and you also will attract attention away from your surroundings because another player (if he has one) needs to put away his weapon to weld you. So he's defenceless and you're killable in two bites.
Now obviously it won't be wise to kill yourself if there are people waiting to spawn or if you are in a position that you need to hold at all costs. There are plenty of times when you go out from base and you never make it back again, nor do you anticipate making it back. In those cases you're not going to bother killing yourself since you were going to die anyway. However, if you are within range of base, and your death won't impact the area you are in, then /kill is viable. You'll be first in the spawn queue and full repaired/rearmed the instant you step off the platform. All for the low low cost of 7 seconds.
What some people don't consider is that you can't impose a set of ideals on other people's gameplay. Those who denigrate it think they can discourage it by doing so, but they can't. People will play how they want to play.
If it will cost p-res to return to full health, people will ALWAYS consider the 'free' option before they pay.
That's why people don't use welders now.
Ask yourself this... At present, a person who is low on armor can get a weld from a teammate. Yet how many buy welders and do that now? Why so few? Because it costs p-res. People will always consider the 'free' option first. It will be no different if this is implemented. People will consider the 'free' option which is /kill. Since they are not in some league game, they really aren't playing in a game where you need to play perfectly to win. So in their case there is no real downside. They want to have fun, and spending p-res on a welder compared to a shotgun is not fun. So yeah, you can guess what choice many people will be making.
I know what choice I'll be making.
There should always be a dude standing 2 feet away from you with a welder. Also if you DO kill yourself from a forward position on the map, there's a good chance you'll lose the armor (part of it anyway) before you get back anyway.
EDIT: I agree that it might be the right choice in some cases, I'm just saying that as a general rule, it's fucking stupid.
And I see a lot of welders ingame, it's the thing we see the most after shotguns. It's also the thing I buy the most everytime, it's so cheap and so useful that you can't refuse to buy it.
I am eager to see it ingame : D
That rephrase is just as absurd to me. When I am all alone and I am out of armor, my options are:
1) Kill myself.
2) Hold my position for as long as I can in an effort to maintain map control.
3) Advance forward to try and do damage before my inevitable death.
4) Fall back to meet up with my team for a stronger push.
All of those options cost no resources. A few of them have potential to cost the other team resources. One of those options is seriously stupid. Can you tell which one?
edit: You could make the argument that you are doing option 1 in order to do option 4, but 7 seconds in this game can mean the difference between losing an extractor and not. Add that to the fact that your team now has to hang around waiting for you for those 7 seconds, or you have to push out alone anyway to catch up to them. Staying out on the map and having a presence is extremely important. Positioning is everything.
Sorry to derail.
Nexzil doesn't go w1 first. I don't see how you can argue against a suicide in this context. It's about being out of position.
But in regards to welding in competitive it won't change that much. It will create busy work. Maybe help lower level teams with combat positioning, don't lose LOS, come back for welds.
Well, I shall still look forward to this being implemented anyway!