savant are you ok with exos requiring welders to heal?
The only thing that 'irks' me about the EXO is that I would rather see it have 100 health and X armor, instead of 580 armor with A3. (I use X to denote whatever would give the EXO the same effective health versus normal damage.) I can understand the problem with giving the EXO health, as how does it get healed? Can't use armory. However, I digress...
As for the point you are getting at, the EXO isn't meant to be off alone. Considering how much damage the EXO will take over the course of a lifetime, it's not feasible for the EXO to return to base to repair even if it *could* do so. It can't use phase gates and is the slowest unit in the game. So it's not unexpected that the EXO should expect to be welded continually. Just as the Onos isn't going to last long without a gorge on his behind either. Both units are the strongest in the game, but they are both BIG targets.
However, both the EXO and the Onos only appear in the end game, at which point resources are no longer the main gameplay factor. (yeah they are important, but you're not gonna worry about a res node when the enemy is banging on the door to your tech point) Frankly, at that stage of the game the commander can (and often times does) drop welders to be used by marines to weld EXOs and ARCs, so it's usually never a concern.
don't you see that this mechanic reeks of the very mechanic that you rail against in removing armor healing from armories? exos are very much a forced-teamwork mechanic in that not only do you, as the exo player, require the support of your fellow teammates to stay alive, your -teammates- are forced to spend half their time AND their p-res welding you instead of shooting!
don't you see how incongruous this is with your position that "nobody will like welding each other because it's forced teamwork" - and yet people accept forced teamwork with exos just fine?
it boggles my mind that you have made such a tenuous self-defeating and self-contradicting series of mental steps to arrive at 'soft-forcing welding sucks in such-and-such a situation, but welding is great/acceptable when it's soft-forced in mechanics already in the game.' it just boggles my mind.
strofix, that's not true. the moment that your team starts buying exos you either support them or you lose. it's such a heavy investment of p-res that you're completely boned if you lose them.
or as Industry said: "You'll probably find I said in previous posts that I would be cool with adv armory giving armor. "
The issue is there is no indication that these alternative options are being offered at the moment. If I am going to get a welder I would at least like the opportunity to weld myself at a slower rate in case my team decides to just get welds from me without returning the favor. That would solve the pub issue of resentment.
Cheaper welders would mean less of a pres sink and the fact that it can self weld/is cheaper would mean more people getting them and more teamwork? Who does not like teamwork that's what this change is all about right? People who refuse to weld will lose the benefit of the welders and aliens will still pick off those that go off on their own refusing to get welders. If you do choose to self weld at a much slower rate you become a target for the aliens to kill while doing so.
"the exo isn't meant to be off alone" don't you see that this mechanic reeks of the very mechanic that you rail against in removing armor healing from armories?
With respect, I disagree. Why?
#1: EXOs are an END GAME unit. They come out when the res is flowing freely, and the game is about to be over. There is nothing left to save for.
#2: When EXOs hit the field the commander almost always can afford to spring for a few welders, unlike in the early game when every res point counts
#3: EXOs need to be welded since they cost a crapload of resources to purchase, and that investment needs to be protected. Stock marines cost nothing.
#4: The EXO is an ALL ARMOR unit. It has no health. If it gets to 0 armor it explodes. Marines can live without armor, an EXO cannot.
#5: There may be a total of FIVE EXOs that are purchased in a given game of a standard size. Compare that to the hundred marines that spawn in an average game. The impact of no armor for a stock marine is felt far more.
I could go on, but I think you get the idea. There is no comparison between EXO welding and marine welding. They are two very different animals.
strofix, that's not true. the moment that your team starts buying exos you either support them or you lose. it's such a heavy investment of p-res that you're completely boned if you lose them.
In my opinion there is a fundamental difference here.
In the case of an exo, players are essentially making the choice of whether they want to win or lose. You don't have to stick with a group, and you don't have to weld exos, but your choices will impact whether you win or lose the game.
This is fine. Some people actively make choices to win a game, while some people, as I'm sure you will agree, primarily don't concern themselves with such questions, and choose to simply play.
However, I think that the armory change would be significant enough to fundamentally impact a players ability to play at all. Instead of it being a question of "do you want to win?", it would become a question of "do you want to play?". Even players who choose to "simply play" would be faced with choices (and to be honest quite a complex choice).
For you and me, this is no problem. We are probably the type of players who are always making the win or lose choices because that's how we like to play. Dare I say that a large proportion of players are not like this though, and don't like to constantly make choices which potentially affect the outcome of the game.
However, the impact that not welding would have in such a scenario would be most felt late game, when missing armor is high, and least felt early game, where missing armor wouldn't constitute much at all. This may allow enough time for "simply playing", before welders become essentially required.
"the exo isn't meant to be off alone" don't you see that this mechanic reeks of the very mechanic that you rail against in removing armor healing from armories?
With respect, I disagree. Why?
#1: EXOs are an END GAME unit. They come out when the res is flowing freely, and the game is about to be over. There is nothing left to save for.
#2: When EXOs hit the field the commander almost always can afford to spring for a few welders, unlike in the early game when every res point counts
#3: EXOs need to be welded since they cost a crapload of resources to purchase, and that investment needs to be protected. Stock marines cost nothing.
#4: The EXO is an ALL ARMOR unit. It has no health. If it gets to 0 armor it explodes. Marines can live without armor, an EXO cannot.
#5: There may be a total of FIVE EXOs that are purchased in a given game of a standard size. Compare that to the hundred marines that spawn in an average game. The impact of no armor for a stock marine is felt far more.
I could go on, but I think you get the idea. There is no comparison between EXO welding and marine welding. They are two very different animals.
#1 arbitrary demarcation. so are jetpacks.
#2 that's an unsubstantiated assumption. you can get to exos on 3 res towers. doesn't mean the comm has spare cash.
#3 non-exo marines with high tier weapons cost resources. why shouldn't they need to be welded?
#4 specious argument. an exo cannot regenerate health by itself, neither can a stock marine. just because an exo only has an "armor" number doesn't automatically mean that damaging its effective health is any different than damaging a marine's.
#5 possibly, but the impact of 'marine forward turtling' around an armory is also drastic and felt far more.
listen, we could go on all day. in the end, i hope the devs don't listen to your line of reasoning, because i think it would improve the quality of the game. you disagree. whatever.
or as Industry said: "You'll probably find I said in previous posts that I would be cool with adv armory giving armor. "
The issue is there is no indication that these alternative options are being offered at the moment. If I am going to get a welder I would at least like the opportunity to weld myself at a slower rate in case my team decides to just get welds from me without returning the favor. That would solve the pub issue of resentment.
If armor welding is removed from the "Armory", maybe we should call it "Healthery" to avoid confusion.
(just kidding)
Normal Armories should heal marines, but should NOT restore their armor.
Advanced Armories should heal marines AND restore their armor.
That's what I would go for as a dev. If it turns out to be completely stupid and to crapcripple gameplay, well then... simply remove it, but please give it a try.
Ceterum censeo Skulkinem movimentum succit ad momentum.
I'm not completely opposed to compromise however, I think the AA healing armor is a fine idea. At 20 additional res and research time to upgrade you're making a clear strategic decision with obvious consequences. They are not very strong and a 30 res blow is not insignificant. It means that buying welders is the generally better choice but in some situations going AA to support the line is validated.
As my earliest posts mentioned I think allowing the AA to heal armor is an excellent compromise because it comes out around armor 2 when welding becomes much more relevant while still allowing hit n run tactics for the aliens to be effective on the front line or near there hives. As well as leaving welding team mates a very valuable option.
I just feel that, as a marine, its ridiculous that I can play ring around the armory with skulks and fades to get a bite or 2 extra in that fight.
No indication? Are you reading the thread? Perhaps this is why I have trouble taking your input seriously. When people are coming in and making arguments before they even realize where the threads conversation has been and what compromises have already been agreed to as good decisions (within the confines of the thought experiment we are debating). Please come back to comment when you're up to speed.
I'm not gonna dig those ones up too but I don't think anyone even has an issue with a slow self weld (or even a full one). I'm slightly opposed to it but not as much as regular armories healing. I've also not experienced the complete marine failures Savant has but that's the way this game can be. Vastly different experiences in a limited sample set.
#1: EXOs are an END GAME unit. They come out when the res is flowing freely, and the game is about to be over. There is nothing left to save for.
#2: When EXOs hit the field the commander almost always can afford to spring for a few welders, unlike in the early game when every res point counts
#3: EXOs need to be welded since they cost a crapload of resources to purchase, and that investment needs to be protected. Stock marines cost nothing.
#4: The EXO is an ALL ARMOR unit. It has no health. If it gets to 0 armor it explodes. Marines can live without armor, an EXO cannot.
#5: There may be a total of FIVE EXOs that are purchased in a given game of a standard size. Compare that to the hundred marines that spawn in an average game. The impact of no armor for a stock marine is felt far more.
#1 arbitrary demarcation. so are jetpacks.
#2 that's an unsubstantiated assumption. you can get to exos on 3 res towers. doesn't mean the comm has spare cash.
#3 non-exo marines with high tier weapons cost resources. why shouldn't they need to be welded?
#4 specious argument. an exo cannot regenerate health by itself, neither can a stock marine. just because an exo only has an "armor" number doesn't automatically mean that damaging its effective health is any different than damaging a marine's.
#5 possibly, but the impact of 'marine forward turtling' around an armory is also drastic and felt far more.
#1: It's not an arbitrary demarcation at all, this is GAME DESIGN. The EXO and the Onos are two tools meant to bring the game to an end. The game is DESIGNED that way.
#2: If a commander can't afford 5 res to buy a welder in the end-game then his game is lost already
#3: Non-EXO marines with advanced weapons who drop them can recover/recycle them. You can't recover/recycle a destroyed EXO.
#4: Having no health means the EXO NEEDS to be welded to survive. A stock marine can live with armor, an EXO can't.
#5: If marine forward armories are an issue, then address the FORWARD armory and not ALL armories.
listen, we could go on all day. in the end, i hope the devs don't listen to your line of reasoning.
You're right, we can go on all day, but this isn't about us. I'm not part of this, this time around, despite being invited to.
However, you do understand this is just a mod we're talking about, right? This isn't a beta or a future build. Selwek is doing the same kind of thing that other devs have done, like Voogru in NS1. They put up their own ideas, and if Charlie finds it appealing he may consider it for inclusion. What you fail to consider is that they already DID consider this for inclusion during the beta, and it was yanked. Now some people have tried to suggest it was removed over balance issues, which isn't true. Features and balance are part of two completely separate development paths, and if anyone doesn't believe me I can... ah screw it lemme find it... Here. This development blog post clearly shows how "features and feel" are developed and implemented independently of the "balance" process. It's why the Gorgeous update - with tons of new alien features like phase gates 'gorge tunnels' - was added to the game when aliens when aliens were winning 60% of games. Balance is addressed independent of game features. The likelihood of this feature being re-implemented is slim at best.
However - and this is the important bit - you don't NEED the developers to put this into the game. That's why you can MOD the game.
Honestly, I have no objections to anyone putting a mod out there that does this at all. Seriously, go for it. If anyone wants to make a mod that yanks marine altogether, go nuts. I really have no objection at all.
My objection is to the suggestion that the BASE GAME should be altered in this way. To pull a quote from Hugh...
Balance changes must be made carefully and subtly, lest they upset the delicate equilibrium that keeps the incredibly complex system that is Natural Selection 2 from crashing down into an ‘Aliens OP!’ nightmare.
Armor exists to tweak the effectiveness of different weapons independently. It would be really hard or impossible to balance the game without it.
^^This.
Far too often I see suggestions that involve taking a sledgehammer to game mechanics in an effort to swat a fly. It can't be understated how even a small change can have a huge balance ripple effect.
Mod the game all you like. (And I wish Sewlek only the best, seriously. It's mods like this that get people talking, and that can only be a good thing.) If people like Sewlek's mod, then they'll play it! If people don't like it, they won't. It's that simple. As it stands now the few NS2_bt servers are sitting empty most of the time. Perhaps it would be best to get them filled regularly before suggesting that something like this be rolled into the main game.
Balance changes must be made carefully and subtly, lest they upset the delicate equilibrium that keeps the incredibly complex system that is Natural Selection 2 from crashing down into an ‘Aliens OP!’ nightmare.
Armor exists to tweak the effectiveness of different weapons independently. It would be really hard or impossible to balance the game without it.
^^This.
Far too often I see suggestions that involve taking a sledgehammer to game mechanics in an effort to swat a fly. It can't be understated how even a small change can have a huge balance ripple effect.
In theory, balance changes should be careful and calculated, but its hard to pull off in practice. The B239->B240 skulks are a good example of changes that looked small and nuanced on paper (e.g. small acceleration nerf/friction increase) but had a huge impact on balance. I also disagree with the welder-only armor repairing change, but I don't think because it could potentially have a large effect on balance is a good reason to oppose it (there are others that are more effective imo).
Also, I've actually never been a fan of armor in NS2 because UWE already implemented a method to balance the effectiveness of weapons separately; damage types. Having armor too unnecessarily complicates matters and leads to problems such as the size of the HP/AP bar on the HUD not being representative of how close you are to death.
In theory, balance changes should be careful and calculated, but its hard to pull off in practice. The B239->B240 skulks are a good example of changes that looked small and nuanced on paper (e.g. small acceleration nerf/friction increase) but had a huge impact on balance.
I couldn't agree with you more. If we totally put aside the issue in this thread, as you aptly noted, even the smallest change can have massive implications to balance. This is why I love when people put out mods like this, since they can test this without actually impacting the overall player base.
Also, I've actually never been a fan of armor in NS2 because UWE already implemented a method to balance the effectiveness of weapons separately; damage types. Having armor too unnecessarily complicates matters and leads to problems such as the size of the HP/AP bar on the HUD not being representative of how close you are to death.
Ehhh... Armor is tricky. I can totally appreciate what you are saying, and on the surface I agree. Looking at your health bar you aren't normally going to be able to calculate how much more damage you can take off the top of your head.
Could we balance this by converting armor to health? It wouldn't be easy. Do we just cut pistol and mine damage by 50% and double minigun damage so that they all have the same damage relative to 'normal'? How do you rectify an ability like bile bomb that currently only impacts marine (soldier) armor and not health?
It would be interesting to study, although I think it might mean a total re-calibration of the health/armor/weapon values to get it all to work.
You need to ask if the current fundamentals of the game are all working as intended, and creating the kind of interesting gameplay that will keep people interested in this game for years like the original had. For me, the answer to that question is no, and that holds true for almost every person I know for many varying reasons. Taking a sledgehammer to fix a small problem is one thing, but when some of the current problems with NS2 are so very fundamental in nature, there is really no other way to fix them.
I would also note that playtesting NS2 has absolutely nothing to do with the balance process - being 'invited' should not be something you try to tout, especially with some of the people that are posting/around this thread. That kind of wording is something I would avoid.
#1: EXOs are an END GAME unit. They come out when the res is flowing freely, and the game is about to be over. There is nothing left to save for.
CAPTAIN, ENGINES FULL STOP. For someone who likes to claim he has an in to Charlie's head and point to his quotes a whole lot this sure is a blunder.
AND I QUOTE:
No game-ending tech
There should never be a technology, ability, weapon, etc. that simply ends the game, or gives a team an unfair advantage. Each tier should increase the options for the team, but not let them easily win it. Ie, the Onos or Exosuit should not be considered so “late-game” that it means that the game is simply over.
#1: It's not an arbitrary demarcation at all, this is GAME DESIGN. The EXO and the Onos are two tools meant to bring the game to an end. The game is DESIGNED that way.
Selwek is doing the same kind of thing that other devs have done, like Voogru in NS1. They put up their own ideas, and if Charlie finds it appealing he may consider it for inclusion. What you fail to consider is that they already DID consider this for inclusion during the beta, and it was yanked. Now some people have tried to suggest it was removed over balance issues, which isn't true.
In ns2, armories repaired armor. there was one build (not sure if it was internal only?) where armories lost this ability but I was myself playing only 2-3 rounds and couldnt really judge the impact of it on the game. Marines were also very weaker at this time (hit reg, lower performance, animation hitches for skulks and other technical problems) so we decided against this change, the timing was simply very bad.
now with release of gorgeous marines have an edge. especially in competitive play, marines are now winning (as opposed to pre gorgeous, alien wins were standard) and i think the timing is now perfect for trying out new (old) things and to also change the marine side.
Oh look, it was going to affect balance, straight from the horse's mouth.
Balance changes must be made carefully and subtly, lest they upset the delicate equilibrium that keeps the incredibly complex system that is Natural Selection 2 from crashing down into an ‘Aliens OP!’ nightmare.
Armor exists to tweak the effectiveness of different weapons independently. It would be really hard or impossible to balance the game without it.
^^This.
Can we please stop acting like the people who want to remove armor healing from armories don't understand that it is going to have a ripple effect through the game. That is kind of the whole point of suggesting it.
Ehhh... Armor is tricky. I can totally appreciate what you are saying, and on the surface I agree. Looking at your health bar you aren't normally going to be able to calculate how much more damage you can take off the top of your head.
Could we balance this by converting armor to health? It wouldn't be easy. Do we just cut pistol and mine damage by 50% and double minigun damage so that they all have the same damage relative to 'normal'? How do you rectify an ability like bile bomb that currently only impacts marine (soldier) armor and not health?
It would be interesting to study, although I think it might mean a total re-calibration of the health/armor/weapon values to get it all to work.
We're effectively stuck with armor at this point since we can't get rid of it without it massively disrupting large parts of the game. However, my point was that armor wasn't the only (or necessarily the best) way to balance the effect of different weapons. I suspect UWE stayed with the quasi armor+damage type system to try to minimize the degree of 'hidden' modifiers for weapon effects (e.g. its much easier to represent armor than it is different damage types on a HUD).
#1: EXOs are an END GAME unit. They come out when the res is flowing freely, and the game is about to be over. There is nothing left to save for.
AND I QUOTE:
No game-ending tech
You can quote all you like, but you are quoting me out of context. I didn't say that EXOs end the game, I said that EXOs come out when the game is about to be over. My text is right there in black and white. Reading comprehension works marvels here. I never said the EXO itself ends the game. The EXO may not do a single thing to end the game. I may take an EXO and sit in base to prevent an alien from ninjaing the power node. That doesn't mean the rest of my team isn't taking a crapload of ARCs to siege a hive. When you see EXOs and Onos the game will soon be over. HOW the game ends is irrelevant to the point at hand.
However, you do understand this is just a mod we're talking about, right? This isn't a beta or a future build.
Changes in this mod are probably being taken a lot more seriously than you think.
Really? I guess we should expect my proposed change in this thread to be implemented any day now right? (man this board really needs a rolling eyes smiley) A 'yellow post' is not indicative of anything more than casual interest. If you think they will yank the armor repair feature off the armory when they have fought so hard to get this game balanced, then you are liable to be disappointed.
Or is it that you just like the idea that you can impose your will on the rest of the gaming community whether they like it or not? Mods exist for a REASON. If you want to do something different, make a mod. Don't expect the devs to change the game just because you say so.
The NS2_bt servers are rarely full and you want to dump that into the main game? How about getting community support on a wider scale first. After Voogru's health-from-armory mod went out, almost every server was running it. The people had spoken. Let's see how this mod does before you start writing the code to put it into the main game, shall we?
Oh look, it was going to affect balance, straight from the horse's mouth.
Wow, more comprehension issues. Of course removing armor repair from the armory will affect balance, that's why we're debating it. What you neglect to consider is that it is a FEATURE change. You're not tweaking a number here, you're actually changing a feature of the game. Changing how much armor is repaired per tick is a balance change. Removing armor repair entirely is a feature change. See the difference?
While game features can and do impact balance, the game isn't balanced by adding or removing said features. If you have read ANY of the dev blog posts on the subject you would know that.
Can we please stop acting like the people who want to remove armor healing from armories don't understand that it is going to have a ripple effect through the game. That is kind of the whole point of suggesting it.
Well maybe they should take it a hell of a lot more seriously then. Frankly I haven't seen anyone (that supports it) who understands just how massive a change this is. You don't yank features in and out to adjust balance. It's like trying to swat a fly with a sledgehammer. This change could easily send balance back to pre-238 levels.
You need to ask if the current fundamentals of the game are all working as intended, and creating the kind of interesting gameplay that will keep people interested in this game for years like the original had. For me, the answer to that question is no
And believe it or not I feel you have a very valid concern. If the game is becoming 'boring' that is most certainly a concern the developers have to address. HOW they address it is something they will decide.
Ask me if I thought the change they made to skulks would have the impact it did and I would say no. It's quite possible the devs could introduce something simple that doesn't affect game balance but adds a lot more 'fun' to the game. Hey, that's why they're getting paid, to come up with these ideas. It's why the Gorgeous update came out to give gorges "more fun".
They're on the clock though. I've said this before, people like yourself will only wait so long before they drift away, so the devs can't drag their heels too long. In the end though, while this change might give you the 'fun' you seek, it will also take away fun from other people. Instead, the devs should look at ways to give you that fun, while not taking it away from anyone else.
#1: It's not an arbitrary demarcation at all, this is GAME DESIGN. The EXO and the Onos are two tools meant to bring the game to an end. The game is DESIGNED that way.
No, I am pretty sure I read it correctly and completely within context. If you wanted it read differently perhaps consider not putting it in a numbered list as it's own statement completely segregated from any idea that could add to it.
Well maybe they should take it a hell of a lot more seriously then. Frankly I haven't seen anyone (that supports it) who understands just how massive a change this is. You don't yank features in and out to adjust balance. It's like trying to swat a fly with a sledgehammer. This change could easily send balance back to pre-238 levels.
I've seen plenty of people that understand the implications on both sides. Get off your high horse with this NO ONE ON THE OTHER SIDE FROM MY IDEAS COULD POSSIBLY BE RIGHT OR UNDERSTAND nonsense. It's pretty insulting.
The EXO and the Onos are two tools meant to bring the game to an end.
bring the game to an end ≠ end the game
Why you even want to argue points that are peripheral to the issue at hand is beyond me. It's like you are here just to argue with me. I won't bother with the rest since I really don't want to get any further off topic.
Why you even want to argue points that are peripheral to the issue at hand is beyond me. It's like you are here just to argue with me. I won't bother with the rest since I really don't want to get any further off topic.
Then I would suggest quit insulting the intelligence of every poster in this thread who disagrees with you with blanket statements of "they don't understand" or "they aren't taking it seriously." This is an important potential change that is worth talking about, and I for one am pretty sick of watching an entire side of the discussion get dismissed so wantonly.
Why you even want to argue points that are peripheral to the issue at hand is beyond me. It's like you are here just to argue with me. I won't bother with the rest since I really don't want to get any further off topic.
That's some awesome mental gymnastics there.
Some elementary If / then premise statements.
If you bring the game to an end, then it is the end of the game.
Exos bring the game to an end.
Therefore, Exos end the game.
Logic 101, refute my premises to defeat my confusion. The mental gymnastics you can perform has been worth the price of admission to this thread and then some. Truly a treat to behold. You should start a circus act.
Armor exists to tweak the effectiveness of different weapons independently. It would be really hard or impossible to balance the game without it.
^^This.
For the record, this is mainly about aliens where greater armour variation and different damage types can keep lifeforms balanced/useful throughout the game. We're talking about marines and only marines here really but sure, fire off some more yellow quotes to scare us off!
The cycle of arguments could easily be stopped if we had alternatives that were offered such as:
or as Industry said: "You'll probably find I said in previous posts that I would be cool with adv armory giving armor. "
The issue is there is no indication that these alternative options are being offered at the moment. If I am going to get a welder I would at least like the opportunity to weld myself at a slower rate in case my team decides to just get welds from me without returning the favor. That would solve the pub issue of resentment.
HAI YMICrazy (COOL name btw!). I tink u may hav missed my point wen I sed dis so here ug o!
WAIT AGAIN, mebe u cud have lyk some armor upgrade thingy for the advanced thingy that costs sumting so not all armorys have the armor upgrade thingy but base can still have armor thingy? Dat way, its not OP forward armory everywere but ppl can still get free armor by da tym rhinos and fades cum out? Mebe we cud all be a bit happy den???? I dnno.
I will say that the potential balance impacts of the armory not healing armor are very well known, and is something that would be monitored very closely. As for why so many are opposed to it, and the changes it brings to gameplay, its really an effect of personal playstyles. NS2 combat at its core is about movement and aim, health is a byproduct. There are countless times you engage as an alien when you do not have full health, it is a perfectly logical choice to make depending on the situation and the timing of events. The need or desire to only engage when you have full health is something that people 'feel' they need to do. The reasonings behind that 'feeling' are really what would need to be focused on should something like this become official. Health and armor are both important balance points when comparing aliens to marines, however you must also remember that aliens need to put themselves at a huge risk when engaging marines, something that marines do not share.
For the record, this is mainly about aliens where greater armour variation and different damage types can keep lifeforms balanced/useful throughout the game. We're talking about marines and only marines here
Sorry, but that quote refers to ALL armor. While mentioned with respect to aliens, the armor concept is universal in the game. Armor effectiveness between marines and aliens is identical. There is no 'alien armor' and 'marine armor' values in the game. There is only 'armor'.
Health and armor are both important balance points when comparing aliens to marines, however you must also remember that aliens need to put themselves at a huge risk when engaging marines, something that marines do not share.
With respect, I have to disagree on principle. The risk in a given engagement is very much dependant on how the engagement is initiated. If a marine is able to engage an alien at range, then yes, the alien has the greater risk. However, if the alien ambushes the marine then it is the marine has the greater risk, not the alien. IMHO neither side has the monopoly on risk in NS2.
Even an ambushing skulk has risk - while minimized, if the marine has a shotgun or even just with good reactions and awareness, the skulk can still loose that engagement easily. Its more how you look at engagements in general - aliens loosing engagements at almost all stages of the game is more impacting than marines loosing the engagements - alien lifeforms are generally more expensive and once lost, are gone forever. Now this is somewhat mitigated by tRes lifeforms and other means currently, but its a general rule that holds true, especially early game.
Even an ambushing skulk has risk - while minimized, if the marine has a shotgun or even just with good reactions and awareness, the skulk can still loose that engagement easily.
Of course, I certainly agree. That's where risk management comes into play. A given player will need to determine whether the risk outweighs the reward. A solo skulk may go after a dual-mini EXO, which is exceptionally high risk, but also has a very high reward.
Its more how you look at engagements in general - aliens loosing engagements at almost all stages of the game is more impacting than marines loosing the engagements - alien lifeforms are generally more expensive and once lost, are gone forever.
While I agree - to an extent - this is also why all alien lifeforms have 'escape' skills. (although for the skulk leap needs to be unlocked) If a Fade finds he is losing an encounter, he can blink away. A lerk can fly away, a gorge can belly slide away, and an onos can charge away.
Despite the impact of death, aliens remain competitive though. The alien team has an economic advantage in this regard since the marine team needs to spend massive amounts of t-res to unlock the high end tech, not to mention build additional buildings. The aliens only need to have the p-res. So while it is possible to prevent a marine team from getting EXOs by denying them a second tech point, the marines cannot deny the alien team advanced lifeforms. (unless they win the game) So long as the alien team has an harvester, they have the potential to attain the needed resources to evolve to it. No t-res or pre-requisites required. So while an alien might lose a bit 'more' by losing an advanced lifeform, they have fewer hurdles to jump in order to attain it.
For the record, this is mainly about aliens where greater armour variation and different damage types can keep lifeforms balanced/useful throughout the game. We're talking about marines and only marines here
Sorry, but that quote refers to ALL armor. While mentioned with respect to aliens, the armor concept is universal in the game. Armor effectiveness between marines and aliens is identical. There is no 'alien armor' and 'marine armor' values in the game. There is only 'armor'.
I'm not really in disagreement here but I wanted to draw attention to how much more this affects aliens than marines. The classes for aliens are numerous, all contain different values for armour and are compensated drastically through movement/cost etc. Marines, on the other hand, are all affected by this static jump across the board but behave pretty much identically with or without it. It's a bit disingenuous to quote that out of context and imply it as some killer blow in your favour.
There is no 'alien armor' and 'marine armor' values in the game. There is only 'armor'.
I'm not really in disagreement here but I wanted to draw attention to how much more this affects aliens than marines.
While I don't disagree either, carapace is a pretty static jump too. My only point with bringing it up was to highlight how tightly the game is balanced to armor values.
or as Industry said: "You'll probably find I said in previous posts that I would be cool with adv armory giving armor. "
The issue is there is no indication that these alternative options are being offered at the moment. If I am going to get a welder I would at least like the opportunity to weld myself at a slower rate in case my team decides to just get welds from me without returning the favor. That would solve the pub issue of resentment.
If armor welding is removed from the "Armory", maybe we should call it "Healthery" to avoid confusion.
(just kidding)
Normal Armories should heal marines, but should NOT restore their armor.
Advanced Armories should heal marines AND restore their armor.
That's what I would go for as a dev. If it turns out to be completely stupid and to crapcripple gameplay, well then... simply remove it, but please give it a try.
Ceterum censeo Skulkinem movimentum succit ad momentum.
I'm not completely opposed to compromise however, I think the AA healing armor is a fine idea. At 20 additional res and research time to upgrade you're making a clear strategic decision with obvious consequences. They are not very strong and a 30 res blow is not insignificant. It means that buying welders is the generally better choice but in some situations going AA to support the line is validated.
As my earliest posts mentioned I think allowing the AA to heal armor is an excellent compromise because it comes out around armor 2 when welding becomes much more relevant while still allowing hit n run tactics for the aliens to be effective on the front line or near there hives. As well as leaving welding team mates a very valuable option.
I just feel that, as a marine, its ridiculous that I can play ring around the armory with skulks and fades to get a bite or 2 extra in that fight.
No indication? Are you reading the thread? Perhaps this is why I have trouble taking your input seriously. When people are coming in and making arguments before they even realize where the threads conversation has been and what compromises have already been agreed to as good decisions (within the confines of the thought experiment we are debating). Please come back to comment when you're up to speed.
I'm not gonna dig those ones up too but I don't think anyone even has an issue with a slow self weld (or even a full one). I'm slightly opposed to it but not as much as regular armories healing. I've also not experienced the complete marine failures Savant has but that's the way this game can be. Vastly different experiences in a limited sample set.
Maybe I should have been a bit clearer. I was sort of hoping some of the input for the balance mod would actually sway changes in that direction which is what I meant by indication. I know a lot of the people in this topic on both sides of the argument have already agreed with the idea of welders becoming cheaper and allowing self weld. Or even AA healing and are willing to compromise for those changes. However the mod has not changed in terms of welder healing mechanics and welder price or through the AA. So people are still opposed.
Comments
As for the point you are getting at, the EXO isn't meant to be off alone. Considering how much damage the EXO will take over the course of a lifetime, it's not feasible for the EXO to return to base to repair even if it *could* do so. It can't use phase gates and is the slowest unit in the game. So it's not unexpected that the EXO should expect to be welded continually. Just as the Onos isn't going to last long without a gorge on his behind either. Both units are the strongest in the game, but they are both BIG targets.
However, both the EXO and the Onos only appear in the end game, at which point resources are no longer the main gameplay factor. (yeah they are important, but you're not gonna worry about a res node when the enemy is banging on the door to your tech point) Frankly, at that stage of the game the commander can (and often times does) drop welders to be used by marines to weld EXOs and ARCs, so it's usually never a concern.
don't you see that this mechanic reeks of the very mechanic that you rail against in removing armor healing from armories? exos are very much a forced-teamwork mechanic in that not only do you, as the exo player, require the support of your fellow teammates to stay alive, your -teammates- are forced to spend half their time AND their p-res welding you instead of shooting!
don't you see how incongruous this is with your position that "nobody will like welding each other because it's forced teamwork" - and yet people accept forced teamwork with exos just fine?
it boggles my mind that you have made such a tenuous self-defeating and self-contradicting series of mental steps to arrive at 'soft-forcing welding sucks in such-and-such a situation, but welding is great/acceptable when it's soft-forced in mechanics already in the game.' it just boggles my mind.
http://forums.unknownworlds.com/discussion/comment/2088776/#Comment_2088776
or as Industry said: "You'll probably find I said in previous posts that I would be cool with adv armory giving armor. "
The issue is there is no indication that these alternative options are being offered at the moment. If I am going to get a welder I would at least like the opportunity to weld myself at a slower rate in case my team decides to just get welds from me without returning the favor. That would solve the pub issue of resentment.
Cheaper welders would mean less of a pres sink and the fact that it can self weld/is cheaper would mean more people getting them and more teamwork? Who does not like teamwork that's what this change is all about right? People who refuse to weld will lose the benefit of the welders and aliens will still pick off those that go off on their own refusing to get welders. If you do choose to self weld at a much slower rate you become a target for the aliens to kill while doing so.
#1: EXOs are an END GAME unit. They come out when the res is flowing freely, and the game is about to be over. There is nothing left to save for.
#2: When EXOs hit the field the commander almost always can afford to spring for a few welders, unlike in the early game when every res point counts
#3: EXOs need to be welded since they cost a crapload of resources to purchase, and that investment needs to be protected. Stock marines cost nothing.
#4: The EXO is an ALL ARMOR unit. It has no health. If it gets to 0 armor it explodes. Marines can live without armor, an EXO cannot.
#5: There may be a total of FIVE EXOs that are purchased in a given game of a standard size. Compare that to the hundred marines that spawn in an average game. The impact of no armor for a stock marine is felt far more.
I could go on, but I think you get the idea. There is no comparison between EXO welding and marine welding. They are two very different animals.
In my opinion there is a fundamental difference here.
In the case of an exo, players are essentially making the choice of whether they want to win or lose. You don't have to stick with a group, and you don't have to weld exos, but your choices will impact whether you win or lose the game.
This is fine. Some people actively make choices to win a game, while some people, as I'm sure you will agree, primarily don't concern themselves with such questions, and choose to simply play.
However, I think that the armory change would be significant enough to fundamentally impact a players ability to play at all. Instead of it being a question of "do you want to win?", it would become a question of "do you want to play?". Even players who choose to "simply play" would be faced with choices (and to be honest quite a complex choice).
For you and me, this is no problem. We are probably the type of players who are always making the win or lose choices because that's how we like to play. Dare I say that a large proportion of players are not like this though, and don't like to constantly make choices which potentially affect the outcome of the game.
However, the impact that not welding would have in such a scenario would be most felt late game, when missing armor is high, and least felt early game, where missing armor wouldn't constitute much at all. This may allow enough time for "simply playing", before welders become essentially required.
#1 arbitrary demarcation. so are jetpacks.
#2 that's an unsubstantiated assumption. you can get to exos on 3 res towers. doesn't mean the comm has spare cash.
#3 non-exo marines with high tier weapons cost resources. why shouldn't they need to be welded?
#4 specious argument. an exo cannot regenerate health by itself, neither can a stock marine. just because an exo only has an "armor" number doesn't automatically mean that damaging its effective health is any different than damaging a marine's.
#5 possibly, but the impact of 'marine forward turtling' around an armory is also drastic and felt far more.
listen, we could go on all day. in the end, i hope the devs don't listen to your line of reasoning, because i think it would improve the quality of the game. you disagree. whatever.
No indication? Are you reading the thread? Perhaps this is why I have trouble taking your input seriously. When people are coming in and making arguments before they even realize where the threads conversation has been and what compromises have already been agreed to as good decisions (within the confines of the thought experiment we are debating). Please come back to comment when you're up to speed.
I'm not gonna dig those ones up too but I don't think anyone even has an issue with a slow self weld (or even a full one). I'm slightly opposed to it but not as much as regular armories healing. I've also not experienced the complete marine failures Savant has but that's the way this game can be. Vastly different experiences in a limited sample set.
#2: If a commander can't afford 5 res to buy a welder in the end-game then his game is lost already
#3: Non-EXO marines with advanced weapons who drop them can recover/recycle them. You can't recover/recycle a destroyed EXO.
#4: Having no health means the EXO NEEDS to be welded to survive. A stock marine can live with armor, an EXO can't.
#5: If marine forward armories are an issue, then address the FORWARD armory and not ALL armories.
You're right, we can go on all day, but this isn't about us. I'm not part of this, this time around, despite being invited to.
However, you do understand this is just a mod we're talking about, right? This isn't a beta or a future build. Selwek is doing the same kind of thing that other devs have done, like Voogru in NS1. They put up their own ideas, and if Charlie finds it appealing he may consider it for inclusion. What you fail to consider is that they already DID consider this for inclusion during the beta, and it was yanked. Now some people have tried to suggest it was removed over balance issues, which isn't true. Features and balance are part of two completely separate development paths, and if anyone doesn't believe me I can... ah screw it lemme find it... Here. This development blog post clearly shows how "features and feel" are developed and implemented independently of the "balance" process. It's why the Gorgeous update - with tons of new alien features like phase gates 'gorge tunnels' - was added to the game when aliens when aliens were winning 60% of games. Balance is addressed independent of game features. The likelihood of this feature being re-implemented is slim at best.
However - and this is the important bit - you don't NEED the developers to put this into the game. That's why you can MOD the game.
Honestly, I have no objections to anyone putting a mod out there that does this at all. Seriously, go for it. If anyone wants to make a mod that yanks marine altogether, go nuts. I really have no objection at all.
My objection is to the suggestion that the BASE GAME should be altered in this way. To pull a quote from Hugh... Or a quote from Charlie himself... ^^This.
Far too often I see suggestions that involve taking a sledgehammer to game mechanics in an effort to swat a fly. It can't be understated how even a small change can have a huge balance ripple effect.
Mod the game all you like. (And I wish Sewlek only the best, seriously. It's mods like this that get people talking, and that can only be a good thing.) If people like Sewlek's mod, then they'll play it! If people don't like it, they won't. It's that simple. As it stands now the few NS2_bt servers are sitting empty most of the time. Perhaps it would be best to get them filled regularly before suggesting that something like this be rolled into the main game.
Otherwise, perhaps we can agree to disagree?
Also, I've actually never been a fan of armor in NS2 because UWE already implemented a method to balance the effectiveness of weapons separately; damage types. Having armor too unnecessarily complicates matters and leads to problems such as the size of the HP/AP bar on the HUD not being representative of how close you are to death.
Ehhh... Armor is tricky. I can totally appreciate what you are saying, and on the surface I agree. Looking at your health bar you aren't normally going to be able to calculate how much more damage you can take off the top of your head.
Could we balance this by converting armor to health? It wouldn't be easy. Do we just cut pistol and mine damage by 50% and double minigun damage so that they all have the same damage relative to 'normal'? How do you rectify an ability like bile bomb that currently only impacts marine (soldier) armor and not health?
It would be interesting to study, although I think it might mean a total re-calibration of the health/armor/weapon values to get it all to work.
I would also note that playtesting NS2 has absolutely nothing to do with the balance process - being 'invited' should not be something you try to tout, especially with some of the people that are posting/around this thread. That kind of wording is something I would avoid.
CAPTAIN, ENGINES FULL STOP. For someone who likes to claim he has an in to Charlie's head and point to his quotes a whole lot this sure is a blunder.
AND I QUOTE:
Source
Nope
Changes in this mod are probably being taken a lot more seriously than you think.
Here
Here
Oh look, it was going to affect balance, straight from the horse's mouth.
Can we please stop acting like the people who want to remove armor healing from armories don't understand that it is going to have a ripple effect through the game. That is kind of the whole point of suggesting it.
Really? I guess we should expect my proposed change in this thread to be implemented any day now right? (man this board really needs a rolling eyes smiley) A 'yellow post' is not indicative of anything more than casual interest. If you think they will yank the armor repair feature off the armory when they have fought so hard to get this game balanced, then you are liable to be disappointed.
Or is it that you just like the idea that you can impose your will on the rest of the gaming community whether they like it or not? Mods exist for a REASON. If you want to do something different, make a mod. Don't expect the devs to change the game just because you say so.
The NS2_bt servers are rarely full and you want to dump that into the main game? How about getting community support on a wider scale first. After Voogru's health-from-armory mod went out, almost every server was running it. The people had spoken. Let's see how this mod does before you start writing the code to put it into the main game, shall we?
Wow, more comprehension issues. Of course removing armor repair from the armory will affect balance, that's why we're debating it. What you neglect to consider is that it is a FEATURE change. You're not tweaking a number here, you're actually changing a feature of the game. Changing how much armor is repaired per tick is a balance change. Removing armor repair entirely is a feature change. See the difference?
While game features can and do impact balance, the game isn't balanced by adding or removing said features. If you have read ANY of the dev blog posts on the subject you would know that.
Well maybe they should take it a hell of a lot more seriously then. Frankly I haven't seen anyone (that supports it) who understands just how massive a change this is. You don't yank features in and out to adjust balance. It's like trying to swat a fly with a sledgehammer. This change could easily send balance back to pre-238 levels.
Ask me if I thought the change they made to skulks would have the impact it did and I would say no. It's quite possible the devs could introduce something simple that doesn't affect game balance but adds a lot more 'fun' to the game. Hey, that's why they're getting paid, to come up with these ideas. It's why the Gorgeous update came out to give gorges "more fun".
They're on the clock though. I've said this before, people like yourself will only wait so long before they drift away, so the devs can't drag their heels too long. In the end though, while this change might give you the 'fun' you seek, it will also take away fun from other people. Instead, the devs should look at ways to give you that fun, while not taking it away from anyone else.
No, I am pretty sure I read it correctly and completely within context. If you wanted it read differently perhaps consider not putting it in a numbered list as it's own statement completely segregated from any idea that could add to it.
And the ad hominem begins.
I've seen plenty of people that understand the implications on both sides. Get off your high horse with this NO ONE ON THE OTHER SIDE FROM MY IDEAS COULD POSSIBLY BE RIGHT OR UNDERSTAND nonsense. It's pretty insulting.
Why you even want to argue points that are peripheral to the issue at hand is beyond me. It's like you are here just to argue with me. I won't bother with the rest since I really don't want to get any further off topic.
Sigh.
Then I would suggest quit insulting the intelligence of every poster in this thread who disagrees with you with blanket statements of "they don't understand" or "they aren't taking it seriously." This is an important potential change that is worth talking about, and I for one am pretty sick of watching an entire side of the discussion get dismissed so wantonly.
That's some awesome mental gymnastics there.
Some elementary If / then premise statements.
If you bring the game to an end, then it is the end of the game.
Exos bring the game to an end.
Therefore, Exos end the game.
Logic 101, refute my premises to defeat my confusion. The mental gymnastics you can perform has been worth the price of admission to this thread and then some. Truly a treat to behold. You should start a circus act.
HAI YMICrazy (COOL name btw!). I tink u may hav missed my point wen I sed dis so here ug o!
With respect, I have to disagree on principle. The risk in a given engagement is very much dependant on how the engagement is initiated. If a marine is able to engage an alien at range, then yes, the alien has the greater risk. However, if the alien ambushes the marine then it is the marine has the greater risk, not the alien. IMHO neither side has the monopoly on risk in NS2.
While I agree - to an extent - this is also why all alien lifeforms have 'escape' skills. (although for the skulk leap needs to be unlocked) If a Fade finds he is losing an encounter, he can blink away. A lerk can fly away, a gorge can belly slide away, and an onos can charge away.
Despite the impact of death, aliens remain competitive though. The alien team has an economic advantage in this regard since the marine team needs to spend massive amounts of t-res to unlock the high end tech, not to mention build additional buildings. The aliens only need to have the p-res. So while it is possible to prevent a marine team from getting EXOs by denying them a second tech point, the marines cannot deny the alien team advanced lifeforms. (unless they win the game) So long as the alien team has an harvester, they have the potential to attain the needed resources to evolve to it. No t-res or pre-requisites required. So while an alien might lose a bit 'more' by losing an advanced lifeform, they have fewer hurdles to jump in order to attain it.
Maybe I should have been a bit clearer. I was sort of hoping some of the input for the balance mod would actually sway changes in that direction which is what I meant by indication. I know a lot of the people in this topic on both sides of the argument have already agreed with the idea of welders becoming cheaper and allowing self weld. Or even AA healing and are willing to compromise for those changes. However the mod has not changed in terms of welder healing mechanics and welder price or through the AA. So people are still opposed.