I'm not sure what you want to say. If you sit on a wall right now (without moving) and hit the jump key, you don't jump upwards, but forward (no matter in what direction you look). Like a mini-leap. Instead of that, I think a simple increase in current speed would fit better.
I'm not sure what you want to say. If you sit on a wall right now (without moving) and hit the jump key, you don't jump upwards, but forward (no matter in what direction you look). Like a mini-leap. Instead of that, I think a simple increase in current speed would fit better.
What I've been saying is that mini-leap was once a lot more powerful, lending a lot more speed. It got nerfed. Also, it works based on which direction you are looking in.
But without that mini-leap for a burst of momentum, how would you supply the speed boost?
As it is now, it IS an increase in current speed when you do it, simply by nature. The problem with it is it isn't enough of a boost, and much harder to maintain.
So, would you mind explaining to me exactly how your "simple increase in current speed" would work, mechanically?
Playing from both the aliens AND marines' perspective, I think this is a bit of an issue. Whichever team you're on- it can be unnerving to see one lone marine take out 3 skulks because they got in some lucky jumps. This concerns me mostly because it can significantly take away the close quarters viability of the skulk, which in the end that's all the skulk really has.
I might suggest that marines need to run a longer distance before being able to get the momentum of a run-jump, or perhaps add a bouncing effect to the gun upon takeoff/landing. I would even accept a loss of accuracy while in mid-air (some players spend the majority of a fight in mid-jump).
Another suggestion: bring back the momentum gain of skulks from earlier builds.
Nothing big needs to be changed, just a minor tweak.
I don't usually post but this thread caught my eye. Enjoy my 2 cents.
KasharicHull, EnglandJoin Date: 2013-03-27Member: 184473Members, Forum Admins, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, NS2 Community Developer
I think the base movement speed of marines and Skulks should be equal. I don't think its fair to have the marines moving quicker than skulks. If you take out jumping, leaps, bouncing or whatever you want to call it. The skulk moves slower than a marine does... it shouldn't in my opinion. The skulk is a four legged creature that can run along walls for christ sake, how is it moving slower than a human!
Try outrunning a larger breed of dog, its not going to happen, and they can only run on the ground. The skulk is an alien lifeform designed for close combat yet it cant stay close enough. keep the marine juking, keep the wall jumping... keep everything as it is. but make the base movement rate of the skulk equal to the marine (at least).
^Base movement speed for skulks is actually higher, it's the acceleration that is lower. Meaning that if the skulk stops/makes a quick turn, it loses all momentum and has to start again, but the marine doing the same thing can accelerate quicker and thus gain more distance in the short term.
Also, it works based on which direction you are looking in.
But without that mini-leap for a burst of momentum, how would you supply the speed boost?
[...]
So, would you mind explaining to me exactly how your "simple increase in current speed" would work, mechanically?
It only works horizontal in the direction you are looking. If you look down while on a wall / ceiling you don't get momentum in the downward direction you are looking but simply forward.
What I think of is a simple +x speed added to your current speed without a direction beside those you are currently looking in.
^Base movement speed for skulks is actually higher, it's the acceleration that is lower. Meaning that if the skulk stops/makes a quick turn, it loses all momentum and has to start again, but the marine doing the same thing can accelerate quicker and thus gain more distance in the short term.
wasn't aware of that... okay, an increase in the acceleration then. because if a marine runs away, at the moment without jumping and bouncing off walls you simply cannot keep up with them. An IMO that isn't right.
^Base movement speed for skulks is actually higher, it's the acceleration that is lower. Meaning that if the skulk stops/makes a quick turn, it loses all momentum and has to start again, but the marine doing the same thing can accelerate quicker and thus gain more distance in the short term.
wasn't aware of that... okay, an increase in the acceleration then. because if a marine runs away, at the moment without jumping and bouncing off walls you simply cannot keep up with them. An IMO that isn't right.
The acceleration being low has been what we've been saying the entire thread :P
I've noticed more and more talk about it on pub servers recently, seems more players are catching on/seeing it as an issue.
wasn't aware of that... okay, an increase in the acceleration then. because if a marine runs away, at the moment without jumping and bouncing off walls you simply cannot keep up with them. An IMO that isn't right.
Also, it works based on which direction you are looking in.
But without that mini-leap for a burst of momentum, how would you supply the speed boost?
[...]
So, would you mind explaining to me exactly how your "simple increase in current speed" would work, mechanically?
It only works horizontal in the direction you are looking. If you look down while on a wall / ceiling you don't get momentum in the downward direction you are looking but simply forward.
What I think of is a simple +x speed added to your current speed without a direction beside those you are currently looking in.
When I was testing it, you would do a mini-leap in the direction you were looking at. However, I stopped typing this post to check it again. You're right.
I'm a bit disappointed that I never realized this change had happened. Now I know exactly what happened to wall jumping. That mini-leap used to be in the direction you were looking at, making wall jumping something you had to work towards (constantly changing aim direction to gain the best speeds). But this is disappointing.
I'm a bit disappointed that I never realized this change had happened. Now I know exactly what happened to wall jumping. That mini-leap used to be in the direction you were looking at, making wall jumping something you had to work towards (constantly changing aim direction to gain the best speeds). But this is disappointing.
That changed quite a while ago, many many patches actually. You should try out sewleks balance mod if you havn't already, the bhop/walljump in it is starting to work very nicely indeed, skulk movement is alot more fun.
I'm a bit disappointed that I never realized this change had happened. Now I know exactly what happened to wall jumping. That mini-leap used to be in the direction you were looking at, making wall jumping something you had to work towards (constantly changing aim direction to gain the best speeds). But this is disappointing.
That changed quite a while ago, many many patches actually. You should try out sewleks balance mod if you havn't already, the bhop/walljump in it is starting to work very nicely indeed, skulk movement is alot more fun.
I stopped typing this post to try it out again. I really don't like the changes. Skulk wall movement feels a lot more sticky, and you lose momentum very quickly. What's more, there's no meter for wall jump force when debugging speed (which barely granted any speed at all, not far from what it is now). And the changes to shadowstep completely ruin the Fade for me.
All I enjoy from that mod is the upgrade changes (sans biomass).
I guess you need to give it a few more goes, even without celerity you can gain some huge speed in the balance mod by combining bhop and walljumps. You have to get your timing right though, and sharp turns will kill the speed.
Part of the reason Skulk acceleration got nerfed was that they would change directions so fast that their player models would move in janky and unpredictable ways. For this reason, I am leaning towards nerfing Marine acceleration and/or jumping stamina so he has to wait longer between jumps on penalty of slowdown.
KasharicHull, EnglandJoin Date: 2013-03-27Member: 184473Members, Forum Admins, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, NS2 Community Developer
while that may make the Marine vs skulk fights better it would also make marine vs "insert other alien lifeform" much more awkward, by changing the mechanics of the marine you would then create a whole load of backlash meaning that practically the whole game would need to be altered to compensate for the marine nerf.
For reasons like Kasharic said, you can't change marine accel speeds without gimping them against lerks/fades and even onos. If ANYTHING gets changed, it has to be the skulk.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited April 2013
I think the margin of effect you guys are positing for a slight decrease in acceleration is off.
Skulk went from what, around 120 to 64? Nearly 50%
I suggest marine from 100 to 85... a 15% difference.
But i think it would make the difference in skulk play (feels juuussst out of range/timing ) and not negatively effect lerk or fade dodging.. Which is of little concern in comparison, even before marines ever had acceleration of 100.
Regardless... Balance mod is the wave of the future, man!
Skulks have even less control in combat (ie chasing marines in melee range) in the balance mod.... It's just you can bhop around the map at 12-14 speed that makes skulk movement feel better. If you can wall jump at 12-14 speed, it's broken. But if you can bhop at 12-14 speed, it's "skill."
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited April 2013
@gorgeous : what are you basing that off of? Because i personally was noticing a huge difference in ability to catch up to strafe jumping skulks. Not to mention i know for a fact that marine accel is lower than vanilla.
Early game a good skulk dominates but late game when marines have weapons 3 and armor 3, a skulk with every single upgrade is still frustrating to play. It's also a little annoying when I'm chasing a marine (who doesn't see me) and he is running at almost the same speed.
There are a few things IMO that factor into Skulk vs Marine play. If you discount group engagements or baiting etc etc...this is what feels wrong to me currently:
1) combat entry, the marine has all the advantages if they know you are in the vicinity. They strafe quicker, they have ranged attack, they can jump and keep acceleration on landing.
2) hit-box/collision really really seems broken. I don't know about EU or NA players who hit 30 ping or what the average is there, but it just frustrates me. (More later)
3) Skulk jumping is frustrating. Chaining up some great jumps to gain a lot of speed, only to have it crumble like you just broke your legs when you land is FRUSTRATING. Play refinery, spawn flow control and as a Skulk head down to lava falls off spawn. You can get some amazing speed heading down if you can time and position ok, but as soon as you enter the main room you hit the ground and go back to what feels like a gimped walk.
3a) This is what it feels like in combat vs a marine who jumps away from you as you jump at his last location. You lose speed and distance, while he maintains speed and gains distance.
Hit-box/Collision.
Alien play is FRUSTRATING as a group. It's meant to be a team game but as soon as you come close to another teammate you lose all acceleration, stop dead in your tracks and have to start all over again.
I don't see how a marine can run OVER a gorge, while at the same time when an onos tries they lose all speed and have to build up again. This is SO frustrating. I've literally had a lerk glide past me, it didnt change it's line of flight, yet as soon as it got in front of me the tip of it's wing stopped my onos charge dead in it's track.
While playing skulk/fade, marines seem to pass through alien lifeforms at will, yet I have never had the same fortune while trying to run through another alien. Fades bounce off skulks, gorges, lerks! Onos stop dead in their tracks on slightly touching a gorge or lerk, two skulks running in the same direction and the one at the back grazes the leader and suddenly he's back to base move speed.
To be honest, the ground acceleration/nerf or whatever could be tweaked, but I would love to see some actual fair movement for all alien lifeforms in relation to hitboxes, along with marines 'phasing' through aliens.
I think a small boost to skulk speed and/or acceleration might be nice but honestly I don't think it's needed that badly. I was 18:1 on Tram a few nights ago as a skulk with no upgrades. When you're playing the way the class was designed to be played rather than running down a hallway into a hail of gunfire, marines don't stand a chance.
Comments
What I've been saying is that mini-leap was once a lot more powerful, lending a lot more speed. It got nerfed. Also, it works based on which direction you are looking in.
But without that mini-leap for a burst of momentum, how would you supply the speed boost?
As it is now, it IS an increase in current speed when you do it, simply by nature. The problem with it is it isn't enough of a boost, and much harder to maintain.
So, would you mind explaining to me exactly how your "simple increase in current speed" would work, mechanically?
I might suggest that marines need to run a longer distance before being able to get the momentum of a run-jump, or perhaps add a bouncing effect to the gun upon takeoff/landing. I would even accept a loss of accuracy while in mid-air (some players spend the majority of a fight in mid-jump).
Another suggestion: bring back the momentum gain of skulks from earlier builds.
Nothing big needs to be changed, just a minor tweak.
I don't usually post but this thread caught my eye. Enjoy my 2 cents.
Try outrunning a larger breed of dog, its not going to happen, and they can only run on the ground. The skulk is an alien lifeform designed for close combat yet it cant stay close enough. keep the marine juking, keep the wall jumping... keep everything as it is. but make the base movement rate of the skulk equal to the marine (at least).
It only works horizontal in the direction you are looking. If you look down while on a wall / ceiling you don't get momentum in the downward direction you are looking but simply forward.
What I think of is a simple +x speed added to your current speed without a direction beside those you are currently looking in.
wasn't aware of that... okay, an increase in the acceleration then. because if a marine runs away, at the moment without jumping and bouncing off walls you simply cannot keep up with them. An IMO that isn't right.
The acceleration being low has been what we've been saying the entire thread :P
I've noticed more and more talk about it on pub servers recently, seems more players are catching on/seeing it as an issue.
Another soul saved. I guess this also means I'm not just bad after all.
When I was testing it, you would do a mini-leap in the direction you were looking at. However, I stopped typing this post to check it again. You're right.
I'm a bit disappointed that I never realized this change had happened. Now I know exactly what happened to wall jumping. That mini-leap used to be in the direction you were looking at, making wall jumping something you had to work towards (constantly changing aim direction to gain the best speeds). But this is disappointing.
That changed quite a while ago, many many patches actually. You should try out sewleks balance mod if you havn't already, the bhop/walljump in it is starting to work very nicely indeed, skulk movement is alot more fun.
I stopped typing this post to try it out again. I really don't like the changes. Skulk wall movement feels a lot more sticky, and you lose momentum very quickly. What's more, there's no meter for wall jump force when debugging speed (which barely granted any speed at all, not far from what it is now). And the changes to shadowstep completely ruin the Fade for me.
All I enjoy from that mod is the upgrade changes (sans biomass).
ah, bitter sarcasm... I remember a time when I resorted to that regularly as well.
Skulk went from what, around 120 to 64? Nearly 50%
I suggest marine from 100 to 85... a 15% difference.
But i think it would make the difference in skulk play (feels juuussst out of range/timing ) and not negatively effect lerk or fade dodging.. Which is of little concern in comparison, even before marines ever had acceleration of 100.
Regardless... Balance mod is the wave of the future, man!
All I ask for is no ice skating skulks...
After 3 games in a row as skulk.
I understand why no one in their right mind wants to play alien atm.
Skulking is way too frustrating ( you cant always ambush ).
Nevertheless I'm not really missing the brick skulks.
1) combat entry, the marine has all the advantages if they know you are in the vicinity. They strafe quicker, they have ranged attack, they can jump and keep acceleration on landing.
2) hit-box/collision really really seems broken. I don't know about EU or NA players who hit 30 ping or what the average is there, but it just frustrates me. (More later)
3) Skulk jumping is frustrating. Chaining up some great jumps to gain a lot of speed, only to have it crumble like you just broke your legs when you land is FRUSTRATING. Play refinery, spawn flow control and as a Skulk head down to lava falls off spawn. You can get some amazing speed heading down if you can time and position ok, but as soon as you enter the main room you hit the ground and go back to what feels like a gimped walk.
3a) This is what it feels like in combat vs a marine who jumps away from you as you jump at his last location. You lose speed and distance, while he maintains speed and gains distance.
Hit-box/Collision.
Alien play is FRUSTRATING as a group. It's meant to be a team game but as soon as you come close to another teammate you lose all acceleration, stop dead in your tracks and have to start all over again.
I don't see how a marine can run OVER a gorge, while at the same time when an onos tries they lose all speed and have to build up again. This is SO frustrating. I've literally had a lerk glide past me, it didnt change it's line of flight, yet as soon as it got in front of me the tip of it's wing stopped my onos charge dead in it's track.
While playing skulk/fade, marines seem to pass through alien lifeforms at will, yet I have never had the same fortune while trying to run through another alien. Fades bounce off skulks, gorges, lerks! Onos stop dead in their tracks on slightly touching a gorge or lerk, two skulks running in the same direction and the one at the back grazes the leader and suddenly he's back to base move speed.
To be honest, the ground acceleration/nerf or whatever could be tweaked, but I would love to see some actual fair movement for all alien lifeforms in relation to hitboxes, along with marines 'phasing' through aliens.